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What is Hypnosis? (i need YOUR OPINION)
23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Well, without knowing more details this is definitely a strong option. I'm not familiar with the hypnotherapists in Edmonton but look into it sometime.

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Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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I was asked for my opinion, I gave it. You can believe it or not, no skin off my back.

If you're going to make tall claims, expect to be asked why you think they're true.

If spontaneous remissions happen, why is it odd that they can be induced?

Induced remission is not spontaneous. :P
Anyway, do you know why it happens? That would be the first step to working out how to induce it.
Here's a bit of background: cancer occurs when the normal mechanisms that destroy cells that divide uncontrollably fail (this includes programmed cell death when the DNA is badly damaged, as well as an immune response to cancerous cells). This is a triple-redundant system, the body spends a lot of resources on preventing cancer (tests with mice also show a connection between physical ageing and development of cancer: it's possible to deay or disable the physical ageing of cells, but the fraction of mice that get cancer jumps up accordingly). Additional mutation can result in the reactivation of one of the safe-guards, causing spontaneous remission (or, alternatively, the cells can get so damaged they simply die). You expect that to happen, but you expect it to be rare.
Cancer research does indeed try to base a therapy on this, but it's hard.

I'm asking you to prove your claim.

Burden of proof. You claim something works, you provide the evidence.

but figuring out the initial sensitizing event and then working our way forwards through your life experience is standard practice for dealing with this sort of thing, with a very high success rate.

But that's what they do in psychotherapy as well. If it works there, it works here. That has little to do with hypnosis working or not working (but if hypnosis is a form of dissociation, I can see that it could; or could make things far, far worse).

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Evert said:

If you're going to make tall claims, expect to be asked why you think they're true.

They aren't tall to me. I'll try to be more considerate of your feelings in the future. :)

Quote:

Burden of proof.

... goes off me when someone else makes a claim. Perhaps I should rephrase it; why would someone think placebo has a similar rate of success to hypnosis? I guess I didn't ask because I assume the answer is "because it fits your model of reality". I'm open to alternate responses.

Quote:

But that's what they do in psychotherapy as well.

Yes and no. It's much less successful in psychotherapy because there's it's being done consciously, not subconsciously. I ask your conscious mind, I'll get no answer, or the wrong answer. The problem is in the subconscious. It's going to know how it got there.

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Step 2. Pray.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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I'm open to alternate responses.

That sounds a bit tongue in cheek given the discussion, but the placebo effect and hypnosis have the requirement of belief and it is through belief that the outcome of each is achieved. Much like a placebo doesn't work on everyone, not all hypnotherapy techniques work on everyone.

Pop a multivitamin in the morning that you believe will make you "feel good" and "have more energy" and there's a good chance you'll suddenly relate to those qualities.

Wake up every morning to Anthony Robbins' hour of power and you might start to "feel good" and "have more energy".

... or you might be more objective and realize that the only thing different about you in either case is your mental state, which you had full control of all along anyway.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

james_lohr
Member #1,947
February 2002

Sirocco said:

When you have a lucid dream you screw things up by becoming conscious while still in the dream

I'm unconvinced that lucid dreaming is any different to ordinary dreaming. I frequently have "lucid" dreams, and I'm now convinced that it is simply an illusion of (or a memory of) being lucid rather than any sort of actual control.

I'm yet to be able to plan my lucid dreams in advance. For example, I should be able to say something like "In my next lucid dream, I'm going to use long division to work out the answer to 1985/777, and remember the result to 5 decimal places".

..It just never happens. In every lucid dream I just end up flying or doing the other cliched things you would expect a lucid dreamer to do. Perhaps the first couple of times I was fooled into believing that I truly had control because flying is a perfectly reasonable thing to do in your first lucid dream, but now that it has happened repeatedly without my pre-planned dreams ever occurring, I'm unconvinced.

I know some people claim to be able to affect what they do in their lucid dreams via suggestion, but this only goes to prove my point: if you were truly lucid you would have complete and intricate control (at least, this is my idea of being truly lucid).

If I were to lie in bed thinking about long division, I might eventually have a "lucid" dream about long division. However, chances are that I would not wake up having memorized the solution to 1985/777 to 5 decimal places. I could, in the style of all lucid dreamers, say something like "I was lucid and attempted the problem, but the dream world is a bit fuzzy and I couldn't solve the problem", but this really smells a bit like bullshit to me. If it was truly me in my full state of lucidity I would, by now, have achieved a lot more in my lucid dreams. For a start I'd have defined some sort of metric for measuring the fuzziness of dreams.

..though no doubt I'll have a dream about measuring dream fuzziness tonight. ::)

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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I've worked with a lot of people who believed their code would work, but I still always ended up having to fix it. :-/

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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That just means you're more objective than they were, ML ;)

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Derezo said:

That just means you're more objective than they were, ML

No, it means I'm stronger willed. I believed it wouldn't work. >:(

Regarding the dream post that sneaked in there, I dream every night. At some point in the dream, I realize I'm dreaming. And I feel like I'm in control. Whether that counts as lucid or not, I don't really care.

My dreams are bizarre and funny (to me) or disturbing, but not unrealistic. (i.e., I'm not flying.) I couldn't make up most of the stuff I dream about. I used to keep a notebook by my bed so I could quickly write down what my dream was about.

But then I started dreaming about dreaming and writing down the inner dreams in my outer dreams (so my real notebook was blank, but I thought it had stuff in it), and I didn't really feel like getting stuck in a recursive pattern, so I stopped. Waking up from a dream only to have to wake up from another one gets tiring. :P

I'm going to use long division to work out the answer to 1985/777, and remember the result to 5 decimal places".

I've had dreams like that, only every time I come up with the answer, the question changes. I get very angry and have to force myself to wake up, which sometimes leaves me in some weird paralyzed state for a brief moment. >:(

And what's up with having a three hour dream in the span of five minutes? I hate those. >:(

FMC
Member #4,431
March 2004
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Do you believe you can control your own blood flow? That you can stop or reduce the bleeding just by wanting so?

It is one of the most used hypnotic effects in clinical settings:
From the Berkley Clinic: http://www.berkeleyclinic.com/img/berkeley/Bleeding1.pdf
And other research: http://womensmindbodyhealth.info/bleed519F.htm

Now, if this (even more) evidence can't convince your of the practical value and trueness of hypnosis, i don't know what can.

So so far it seems to me that even the hypnosis supporters can't prove its any better than the placebo effect. Why not just sell capsules full of icing sugar for $100 a bottle, and tell them it'll work after one month, or their money back?

Read the links in this post

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SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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FMC said:

It is one of the most used hypnotic effects in clinical settings:

Well, that makes perfect sense and has a reasonable mechanism instead of this mind over matter mumbo jumbo. Vasoconstriction is partially controlled by the vasomotor center in the brain... so it makes perfect sense that it may be possible to affect that through the subject's beliefs. This is the kind of evidence that I am looking for. Hypnosis operating through a known neural pathway that starts in the brain.

I'll be obtuse though and say that it's not hypnosis, it's higher brain functions affecting the brainstem function. I'll reiterate my earlier point... each specific claim attributed to hypnosis needs to be proven separately because there is absolutely no guarantee that they use the same mechanism (although I'd expect most of its effects can be explained like that vasoconstriction example).

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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If someone's checking my pulse, I can freak them out by inhaling very slowly, which for some reason slows my heartbeat way down.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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So ... if you could fix someone's problem permanently by giving them water, you wouldn't do it? Just so we're clear.

I wouldn't charge them $50 for the water, no. :P

Derezo said:

It's like praying.

Well said. :) Positive thinking and optimism can have a positive influence on the result. We have a natural tendency to connect the dots and assume the positive result was a cause of the praying or the hypnosis instead of realizing that it was other factors that actually mattered.

Therefore, to say that hypnosis can cure anything is misleading and dishonest. Hypnosis doesn't directly do anything to help. Perhaps it might allow the subject to alter his mental state and effect the result, but the "cure" would then be the new mental state, not the hypnosis.

I've pretty much only not been able to (completely) help one person, and that's because they moved before we were done. Therapy work I've done maybe ... 20 or so times?

Define the parameters for success. Just because the subject tells you it helped or worked doesn't mean that it actually did. To be objective, you would have to define what success means and evaluate the results based on that.

For example, if the goal is to quit smoking, does success mean the subject is never tempted to smoke ever again? Does it just mean that they quit smoking and never smoke again (though they might be tempted)? Does it only mean that they stopped smoking for a short time long enough to have been thought impossible before?

In order to objectively form a conclusion on the success of the hypnosis the parameters must be defined. Moreso, in the case of something like this, you can't conclusively guarantee that the subject is telling the truth. Maybe they did sneak a smoke and felt too ashamed to say anything. Maybe they're delusional and believe it worked even though it didn't. Without being able to absolutely test for success you can only believe that you were successful. You can't prove it.

Scientology works too, you know. Just ask any Scientologist! ;D

Sirocco said:

As your subconscious is controlling the people, things, and events in your dream, it seems that you can interact with it much like you would anyone else in your waking life.

Here's the interesting part -- it's incredibly receptive to whatever you say. Find someone in your dream and ask them a question. They'll answer truthfully, even if the question references something IRL. Ask someone for help, of any kind. They'll make it happen without fail. You can use this as an easy technique to reshape your dream if you lack the confidence or skill to do it all by yourself.

I think it's misleading to think of your subconscious mind as a distinct consciousness. I would more accurately describe it as an automated extension to your own consciousness. You might not be consciously in control of what it does, but it is still your own mind doing it to the best of our knowledge (though perhaps there are microscopic aliens living inside of us that we haven't discovered yet ;)).

Sirocco said:

The fascinating part, to me, is that your subconscious seems to have an eerie inability to deny you when you're in that state.

This has not been my experience. It's been a while since I remember having a lucid dream, but I don't ever remember it just doing as I command it in the dream. I am in control of what happens to some extent, but not through voice, for example. It isn't like a virtual world that my subconscious is interfacing with me through. ::) As I said, my subconscious is still me! I think it's much more likely that there's a direct link between them, if they're distinct systems at all.

I tend to be somewhat of a realist in my dreams so despite wanting somebody to do something and asking them to in the dream, I generally subconsciously simulate what I believe they actually would do or say in that situation (pessimistically), just as I would imagine they would respond in real life.

It's also proof that no one tries it very much yet.

I don't think you understand what "proof" means. :P It's not proof of anything.

And as I said before, we couldn't legally claim it even if it were true.

Citation needed.

Yes and no. It's much less successful in psychotherapy because there's it's being done consciously, not subconsciously. I ask your conscious mind, I'll get no answer, or the wrong answer. The problem is in the subconscious. It's going to know how it got there.

Wait, are you telling us that you are more qualified to help somebody with psychological issues than a doctor of psychology? :P

I'm yet to be able to plan my lucid dreams in advance. For example, I should be able to say something like "In my next lucid dream, I'm going to use long division to work out the answer to 1985/777, and remember the result to 5 decimal places".

Why should that be a requirement? Just because you're lucid doesn't mean you're coherent. :P I've had dreams where I knew I was dreaming, but I still feel like I'm in that world, and I'm unaware of the state of the real world. Which is to say, it isn't like I could leave the dream world on demand if I wanted to (though I'd never want to). I don't think remembering a particular thought or idea is required to be lucid. Even in real life there are times when you can't remember something you wanted to. :P

FMC said:

Do you believe you can control your own blood flow? That you can stop or reduce the bleeding just by wanting so?

No, I don't. There are physical means to regulate blood flow or stop the bleeding and the brain does control them, but I don't think anybody has direct control over these mechanisms. They are autonomous. Moreso, they aren't absolute. They do their best to control things, but the brain isn't in complete control of the body, nor the world around it, nor the implications of them.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Quote:

Citation needed.

In the USA, quacks cannot make claims that they can cure (i.e., effectively treat) any disease without their treatments going through proper government channels. This includes drugs, natural remedies, etc. I'm sure Canada has similar policies.

So if a person says, "even if we cured cancer, we couldn't legally claim to," what they really are doing is giving themselves an out for why they don't want to subject themselves to the sort of third party tests that everybody else does.

It's easy to give yourself a high success rate, both intentionally and unintentionally (you've mentioned some). But it's hard to fake an independent, controlled study. And why would you want to participate in a study that you have no control over? You can tout your own personal numbers if you want to try to convince somebody to part with his money.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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bamccaig said:

Define the parameters for success.

First thing we do in the session.

Quote:

For example, if the goal is to quit smoking, does success mean the subject is never tempted to smoke ever again? Does it just mean that they quit smoking and never smoke again (though they might be tempted)? Does it only mean that they stopped smoking for a short time long enough to have been thought impossible before?

It means they're a non-smoker. This can mean different things to different people and different methods are tailored to them depending on how they best respond. Some people are good at amnesia. Some people are good at disassociation. Some people are good at post-hypnotic suggestion. Use the correct tool for the job.

Quote:

In order to objectively form a conclusion on the success of the hypnosis the parameters must be defined. Moreso, in the case of something like this, you can't conclusively guarantee that the subject is telling the truth. Maybe they did sneak a smoke and felt too ashamed to say anything? Maybe they're delusional and believe it worked even though it didn't. Without being able to absolutely test for success you can only believe that you were successful. You can't prove it.

Just to keep up the anal treatment I've been getting, of course it's provable. Just observe them 24/7. Also, why would they be embarrassed? You think out of all the stop-smoking sessions a hypnotherapist does, and the failure rate you seem to assume, none of them blame the hypnotherapist? That's a little absurd. If it wasn't working, we'd know pretty easily.

Quote:

I think it's misleading to think of your subconscious mind as a distinct consciousness.

They are quite literally in different halves of your brain. It's not misleading.

EDIT: Here's an interesting video on conscious and subconscious processes. There's actually a lot of odd stories about patients who have undergone this surgery ...

video

Quote:

This has not been my experience.

See, here's the fun thing; everyone's experience of hypnosis is different because they create it. It's like how no two people will draw the same house when told to draw a house.

Quote:

I don't think you understand what "proof" means. :P It's not proof of anything.

Yes, that's what I meant by "it's proof of whatever you find easiest to believe. Nothing more." Lots of examples in your own post.

Quote:

Wait, are you telling us that you are more qualified to help somebody with psychological issues than a doctor of psychology? :P

I certainly have a better tool. About half the professional hypnotherapists I know in town come from other backgrounds like psychology or are still doctors, and many of them do therapy exclusively via hypnosis now. Can't argue with results.

So if a person says, "even if we cured cancer, we couldn't legally claim to," what they really are doing is giving themselves an out for why they don't want to subject themselves to the sort of third party tests that everybody else does.

Um, everyone else tells us this too. I repeat; a lot of hypnotherapists are also doctors. NO ONE can claim it. Maybe it's different in the States.

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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Um, everyone else tells us this too. I repeat; a lot of hypnotherapists are also doctors. NO ONE can claim it. Maybe it's different in the States.

Press release from yesterday:

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm278894.htm

Quote:

FDA approves Erbitux to treat late-stage head and neck cancer

That's what I'm talking about. There are also agencies that approve surgical procedures, etc. Now maybe there's nothing specifically for mind doctors, I don't know. It's definitely not true that "nobody" is allowed to make claims about effective treatments for specific diseases, which is what I'm talking about when I use the word "cure." Maybe you mean something else.

But you could always get reputable third party sources to measure success. Then you can say things like, "A study conducted by XYZ showed a 83% chance of success," but of course if XYZ is some quack-partner, then it doesn't mean much.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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It's definitely not true that "nobody" is allowed to make claims about effective treatments for specific diseases, which is what I'm talking about when I use the word "cure.

The reason nobody can make the claim is because of agencies like the FDA. Obviously they can. ::) I'm just talking about doctors, period.

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Software Development == Church Development
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Step 2. Pray.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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I'm just talking about doctors, period.

You mean doctors are not allowed to say "I can cure cancer"? Of course they cannot say such things.

But can they say, "I have a degree from XYZ, have been practicing for N years, and am licensed at performing the allowed procedure FOO and prescribing drug BAR which has been approved by the FDA and clinically proven to successfully treat the disease"? Yes.

And could a hypnotist could make that same statement? I don't see why not, assuming they go through the same rigorous procedures that everybody else has to go through. But they'd have to come up with some particular, measurable, scientific reason why it works to get approval, because if the success rate depends entirely on the person's ability to play along with the hypnotist's games, then there would be no way to certify the process itself.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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And could a hypnotist could make that same statement?

That we can say, yes. But that's the verbal fine print I was talking about.

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Software Development == Church Development
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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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That we can say, yes. But that's the verbal fine print I was talking about.

You can, but would it be true?

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23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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If it weren't, we wouldn't be able to say it legally, now would we?

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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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If it weren't, we wouldn't be able to say it legally, now would we?

So it is "approved by the FDA and is scientifically proven to successfully treat the condition"?

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"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Okay fine, hypnotherapy is not approved by the United States Food and Drug Administration. ::) We have our own clinical licenses, legislation, and laws, obviously.

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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Sure, but most often, the Canadian laws and FDA equivalent just waits for the FDA to pass something, then passes it itself.

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"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Still not seeing what hypnosis has to do with food and drug. Does the FDA honestly regulate that? (not sarcastic)

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Software Development == Church Development
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Step 2. Pray.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I just assumed they regulated all medical procedures. They do regulate a lot of medical related things like drugs (obviously), and medical devices. Looks like they don't regulate individual types of treatments outside of the drugs and devices. Though some other organization probably does.

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730



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