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What is Hypnosis? (i need YOUR OPINION)
23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Why not just sell capsules full of icing sugar for $100 a bottle, and tell them it'll work after one month, or their money back?

What are we fixing, exactly? If I knew this had a proven track record of permanent, positive success I'd do it in a second (or tell them to make their own).

The part most of us doubt is whether or not you can enlarge a person's penis, grow out a severed limb, or heal a crippled person via hypnosis, all of which Chris apparently thinks is possible with a "low success rate" assuming the patient tries hard enough and has some sort of magical gene that just needs to be thought into action.

I don't recall saying any of those but one was possible. I also don't recall saying they required a magic gene. Reading is fundamental, Matthew.

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Software Development == Church Development
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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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What are we fixing, exactly? If I knew this had a proven track record of permanent, positive success I'd do it in a second (or tell them to make their own).

Doesn't matter what it is. The placebo effect is the placebo effect regardless of how it comes about.

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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So ... if you could fix someone's problem permanently by giving them water, you wouldn't do it? Just so we're clear.

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Software Development == Church Development
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Step 2. Pray.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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So ... if you could fix someone's problem permanently by giving them water, you wouldn't do it? Just so we're clear.

That is really beside the point. You were/are claiming that hypnosis is some 100% guaranteed magical thing where everyone gets better. It clearly isn't. You just don't have any real data to back that up, and give us meaningless numbers.

But sure, on the bus today, I was thinking of making those pills myself and a website to sell them. Could help a lot of people. Especially me.

So far afaik scientific studies have shown that the placebo effect does not cure anything. Most times it reduces symptoms, and even then not for all people.

There's nothing wrong with trying to help someone, but you really aught not to sell them something like its some magical cure-all, when you can do the same thing with a vial of water and food-dye.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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I don't recall saying any of those but one was possible. I also don't recall saying they required a magic gene. Reading is fundamental, Matthew.

But extrapolation is more fun.

If your genes don't code for it, your subconscious won't know how to do it.

It's clever to say that we have a gene to enlarge a penis, but we don't have one to grow a limb. So basically, if by some coincidence a person's penis grows (or more likely, mismeasures because he wants it to have grown), you claim success. If it doesn't, then the person doesn't have the gene, or he didn't comply with the program, etc. It's never because hypnosis simply doesn't actually do anything.

Why should the same thing not apply to growing out a severed limb? We definitely have the genes to do that, at least at one point. Is it too radical? Is it because you know that nobody will ever coincidentally grow a new limb and it's impossible to trick somebody into thinking he has by just giving him a tape measure?

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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So far afaik scientific studies have shown that the placebo effect does not cure anything.

Then it's automatically inferior to hypnosis.

Quote:

You were/are claiming that hypnosis is some 100% guaranteed magical thing where everyone gets better.

I'm claiming that the subconscious has an effect on the physical body, and hypnosis is the only discipline that targets the subconscious by design. That much at least is fact. It's not 100%, it's not guaranteed (nothing is), it's not magic. It's VERY effective treating a lot of subconscious problems, but wouldn't it be? It's actually pretty damn normal; you're just not used to it being framed in this manner.

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You just don't have any real data to back that up, and give us meaningless numbers.

I gave you one number to my knowledge. If you want data it's been posted. Are you looking for something specific?

It's clever to say that we have a gene to enlarge a penis, but we don't have one to grow a limb. So basically, if by some coincidence a person's penis grows (or more likely, mismeasures because he wants it to have grown), you claim success. If it doesn't, then the person doesn't have the gene, or he didn't comply with the program, etc. It's never because hypnosis simply doesn't actually do anything.

Why should the same thing not apply to growing out a severed limb? We definitely have the genes to do that, at least at one point. Is it too radical? Is it because you know that nobody will ever coincidentally grow a new limb and it's impossible to trick somebody into thinking he has by just giving him a tape measure?

When did I say success was based on genes? Hypnosis can't affect your genetic code. I think you need to re-read what I said.

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Software Development == Church Development
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Step 2. Pray.

OnlineCop
Member #7,919
October 2006
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I kept trying to read everything that everyone said. I really did. But my eyes started to glaze over, and I just had to throw in a couple 2-cents's:

Name a single person in history who, by shear power of mind, grew another penis. Or regrew a limb. Or altered their own DNA so they looked different. If it never happened "on its own" and "in the wild", there's no way hypnosis can really alter your brain chemistry so drastically to suddenly give you super powers.

Now, name someone who decided to give up smoking cold-turkey. Or stop having phobias. Or give themselves the will-power to lose weight. It's happened: it may have been difficult, but it wasn't downright impossible.

Hypnosis IS a mind game. That's the whole point. You get hypnotized when you watch a movie and tune everything out around you. You focus on something intently, and if you're scatter-brained like me, someone is droning on in the background, "reminding" you to focus on something and tuning everything else away.

So that begs the question: can you be hypnotized against your will? Some can be. ;D

What about being given x-ray vision? Well, can you imagine people naked when standing in front of a large audience as you're giving a speech? If you can do it there, you can probably do it "after being hypnotized." Would you really WANT to be walking around everything, imagining people au natural? Well... that's up to you, I guess 8-)

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Then it's automatically inferior to hypnosis.

Where is your evidence? Can we see it? How many clients have you had, how many failures, how many successes, and how many times have you followed up on your clients?

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I gave you one number to my knowledge.

Hmmm. Maybe.

Psychoanalysis: 38% improvement after 600 sessions
Behavioral Therapy: 72% improvement after 22 sessions
Hypnotherapy: 93% success after 6 sessions

And 99% of her work is quite legitimate.

I would like to see some actual proof of that. And no, claims of penis enlargement aren't proof. I need actual evidence. Either someone does it on me, or there's a video taken of the before, and after, with no splicing or editing.

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low success rate

This one isn't really a number, but it is a quantity.

the bottom line is you'll argue no matter what

Now who's putting words in other's mouths? Remember earlier? I was seriously asking if you'd help me because I am interested in hypnosis, I would like it to be something special, since its a cool concept. However your attempts here have seriously made me question that.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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The part most of us doubt is whether or not you can enlarge a person's penis, grow out a severed limb

You could hypnotize them to go out an buy a prosthesis! ;D

Human limbs do not grow back (... or get larger).

Hypnosis is best used to treat bad habits... whether that be biting your nails, avoiding social interaction, or judging your own actions inappropriately. Superficial stuff.

It's like praying.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Where is your evidence? Can we see it? How many clients have you had, how many failures, how many successes, and how many times have you followed up on your clients?

I do little enough work that I don't not follow up on my clients. And the details of my clients' personal problems aren't really your business. Sorry.

Quote:

I would like to see some actual proof of that.

So go find some, I guess. Hypnosis is something that makes you want to experiment with it, and some people have gotten some interesting results. I could tell you more interesting stuff than that. But none of this is anything any serious therapist does anyway, so it's odd to focus on.

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This one isn't really a number, but it is a quantity.

It was also an agreement.

Quote:

Now who's putting words in other's mouths? Remember earlier? I was seriously asking if you'd help me because I am interested in hypnosis, I would like it to be something special, since its a cool concept. However your attempts here have seriously made me question that.

I would help you, but that help has absolutely nothing to do with experimental hypnosis. Do you want to ask professional questions or do you want to know more about growing your dick? ::)

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Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I would help you, but that help has absolutely nothing to do with experimental hypnosis. Do you want to ask professional questions or do you want to know more about growing your dick?

How can you expect to be taken seriously when you make crazy claims? They aren't really all that separate. Given you claim penis enlargement via hypnosis is "a thing", then any questions about it ARE professional questions.

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I do little enough work that I don't not follow up on my clients. And the details of my clients' personal problems aren't really your business. Sorry.

Are you being this obtuse on purpose? I wasn't asking for personal details. Just cold hard numbers.

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So go find some, I guess.

We were asking you for some, since you're the resident expert. I personally wouldn't know what valid evidence would be, you might, given that you do that sort of thing.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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How can you expect to be taken seriously when you make crazy claims? They aren't really all that separate. Given you claim penis enlargement via hypnosis is "a thing", then any questions about it ARE professional questions.

No, if this were a pre-talk or screening interview and the conversation went off in this direction, I would basically refuse their money. And I don't expect to be taken seriously; I expect to be honest. If you don't believe me, well, I guess that was expected. I'm still not going to lie.

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Are you being this obtuse on purpose? I wasn't asking for personal details. Just cold hard numbers.

I've pretty much only not been able to (completely) help one person, and that's because they moved before we were done. Therapy work I've done maybe ... 20 or so times?

Quote:

We were asking you for some, since you're the resident expert. I personally wouldn't know what valid evidence would be, you might, given that you do that sort of thing.

I wouldn't know what valid evidence might be for you either. I've done a lot of research into what the subconscious affects (and doesn't affect), talked with professionals about their personal experience and the thing's they're experimented with, and tried to figure out what works, what doesn't, why some things have a higher success rate than others, why something might work with one person but not another, etc. I've talked with hypnotists who help train new recruits in the Calgary police force, doctors who have been integrating it into their practice, local ambulance paramedics who use it for anesthesia ... but none of it is hard scientific rigor.

So I'll tell you what I know, and you can take it or leave it. I have no hard data for you, no evidence. This is just what we do.

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Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I wouldn't know what valid evidence might be for you either.

Anything that's repeatable and verifiable.

Quote:

No, if this were a pre-talk or screening interview and the conversation went off in this direction, I would basically refuse their money. And I don't expect to be taken seriously; I expect to be honest. If you don't believe me, well, I guess that was expected. I'm still not going to lie.

Then why are you saying things about hypnosis penis enlargement being "a thing", and curing cancer. As has been said, the most likely explanation is pure chance. Especially if you can only claim there's a low success rate. For it to be an actual thing, it would have to do better than a placebo. Placebos have also been used in the same way, and in some cases, they also appear to "cure cancer". In reality, that is quite unlikely to have anything to do with the placebo itself. claiming anything more than that is lying pure and simple.

Had you actually kept to saying sane things, I'd probably have more faith in hypnotism. I was taking you seriously before that.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Anything that's repeatable and verifiable.

Nothing, sorry.

Quote:

Then why are you saying things about hypnosis penis enlargement being "a thing", and curing cancer.

They were mentioned. It's been done. I guess it just doesn't seem that weird to me anymore, given my research. Sorry if I was too radical.

Quote:

Placebos have also been used in the same way, and in some cases, they also appear to "cure cancer". In reality, that is quite unlikely to have anything to do with the placebo itself.

Would that apply to a cancer patient given six months to live having his tumors quickly disappearing? You told me a placebo wasn't a cure, so I'm curious now if it applies here.

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Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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They were mentioned. It's been done.

I'm sorry, but anecdotal stories are not evidence.

Quote:

Would that apply to a cancer patient given six months to live having his tumors quickly disappearing? You told me a placebo wasn't a cure, so I'm curious now if it applies here.

It isn't a cure. Spontaneous remission happens. At most a placebo tricks the mind into feeling slightly better, which in and of its self, can help the body do it's thing better, and/or enhance existing treatments.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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I'm sorry, but anecdotal stories are not evidence.

I don't ever recall saying it was.

Quote:

At most a placebo tricks the mind into feeling slightly better, which in and of its self, can help the body do it's thing better, and/or enhance existing treatments.

Um, yes. That's a light form of hypnosis.

If spontaneous remissions happen, why is it odd that they can be induced? I guess I'm not getting why one is accepted and not the other.

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Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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If spontaneous remissions happen, why is it odd that they can be induced? I guess I'm not getting why one is accepted and not the other.

My bet is that it wasn't induced. Pure coincidence. They happen too.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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At most a placebo tricks the mind into feeling slightly better, which in and of its self, can help the body do it's thing better, and/or enhance existing treatments.

If a placebo worked in the case of cancer, then the doctor would simply tell the patient that his cancer is gone...

If spontaneous remissions happen, why is it odd that they can be induced?

If we knew how to "induce spontaneous remission" then we'd have the cure for cancer.

Hypnotizing everybody who has cancer and getting the same low success results as spontaneous remission is proof of nothing other than hypnosis cannot cure cancer. :P

Sirocco
Member #88
April 2000
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I'd like to bring up an interesting observation I (and numerous others) have had in the last few years, while experimenting with lucid dreaming. The general consensus, if you disregard the quacks who ramble about astral projection and the like (nonsense!), is that dreaming is a state nearly the opposite of being awake, where your subconscious is in charge and you participate in your dreams much like a passenger in a car. You might be doing quite a lot while dreaming, but really your consciousness is on autopilot while you experience the scenario your subconscious has somewhat haphazardly assembled from the material it has at its disposal.

When you have a lucid dream you screw things up by becoming conscious while still in the dream. Hence, you and your subconscious are active at the same time. As your subconscious is controlling the people, things, and events in your dream, it seems that you can interact with it much like you would anyone else in your waking life.

Here's the interesting part -- it's incredibly receptive to whatever you say. Find someone in your dream and ask them a question. They'll answer truthfully, even if the question references something IRL. Ask someone for help, of any kind. They'll make it happen without fail. You can use this as an easy technique to reshape your dream if you lack the confidence or skill to do it all by yourself.

The fascinating part, to me, is that your subconscious seems to have an eerie inability to deny you when you're in that state. My supposition at this point is that a genuine hypnotist may be able to generate some lasting effect by coaxing a person's mind into a dreamlike state where their subconscious is open to suggestion, much like it is when you're having a lucid dream.

Just a thought.

-->
Graphic file formats used to fascinate me, but now I find them rather satanic.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Sirocco said:

My supposition at this point is that a genuine hypnotist may be able to generate some lasting effect by coaxing a person's mind into a dreamlike state where their subconscious is open to suggestion, much like it is when you're having a lucid dream.

Yes. Yes they can. /NO EVIDENCE TOTALLY ANECDOTAL PROBABLY FILTHY LIES

If we knew how to "induce spontaneous remission" then we'd have the cure for cancer.

Hypnotizing everybody who has cancer and getting the same low success results as spontaneous remission is proof of nothing other than hypnosis cannot cure cancer. :P

Is it the same low success rate? The doctors I've talked to (incidentally, if we could cure cancer, I'm informed we couldn't legally claim to anyway) seem to have success above and beyond the placebo effect. Again, no evidence, but I don't see any for your statement either, so I'm asking.

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Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Again, no evidence, but I don't see any for your statement either, so I'm asking.

Really? Has cancer been cured while I was out today? If we COULD induce spontaneous remission, cancer would be gone. pure and simple.

I think at most, hypnotism could be labelled as a healing aid. Not a cure.

append:
I personally could use a bit of an aid. I have NO bloody clue how to continue. I'm pretty sure I know what the root causes of my issues are, but how does a person get over deep seated psychological issues that they've had since they were a tot?

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Really? Has cancer been cured while I was out today? If we COULD induce spontaneous remission, cancer would be gone.

I never said it was a sure thing. I said it has been done. If someone's going to say the numbers are the same as the placebo effect, then I guess I'll have to take thier word they've done research I haven't.

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I think at most, hypnotism could be labelled as a healing aid. Not a cure.

Depends for what. For physical ailments, I agree completely.

Quote:

I'm pretty sure I know what the root causes of my issues are, but how does a person get over deep seated psychological issues that they've had since they were a tot?

Hey, a question I can answer maturely! :D

I'm not sure how much you would want to know right off the bat, but figuring out the initial sensitizing event and then working our way forwards through your life experience is standard practice for dealing with this sort of thing, with a very high success rate. There's other things that can be done to supplement that, but personally I'd start there and see what gets unearthed, or see if you respond better to some other methodology (that's my style, anyway). It's all programming; you got it 20 years ago, you got it yesterday. It can change.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Is it the same low success rate?

I don't have to prove some quack's claims. He has to prove it. It's not very hard. If you can treat cancer with hypnosis, voodoo, or drugs, then start up a scientific study that proves it. Give some patients hypnotists, give some patients pretenders (the placebo), and give others neither (the control group).

With drugs there are always numbers that show how effective it has been in clinical studies. Such evidence is objectionably reviewed using valid statistical procedures to see if the drug helped, hurt, or was irrelevant.

So I'm generous in that I grant a hypnotist the same low success rate as doing nothing. Perhaps he makes things worse. :P

And, by the way, the lack of such evidence in something as high profile as cancer is proof that it doesn't work.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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I don't have to prove some quack's claims.

I'm asking you to prove your claim. If you're going to be anal about my comments I'll be anal about yours. :P

Quote:

And, by the way, the lack of such evidence in something as high profile as cancer is proof that it doesn't work.

It's also proof that no one tries it very much yet. And as I said before, we couldn't legally claim it even if it were true. Put simply, it's proof of whatever you find easiest to believe. Nothing more.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I'm not sure how much you would want to know right off the bat, but figuring out the initial sensitizing event and then working our way forwards through your life experience is standard practice for dealing with this sort of thing, with a very high success rate. There's other things that can be done to supplement that, but personally I'd start there and see what gets unearthed, or see if you respond better to some other methodology (that's my style, anyway). It's all programming; you got it 20 years ago, you got it yesterday. It can change.

I have no idea what the exact moment in time was that the issues started. But I have a general idea of what caused them. Trying to de-program the automatic thoughts is probably the hardest thing I've ever had to do. Especially when my mood slips (yay depression and bipolar!) It doesn't look like I'll manage to do it by myself in the next decade.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730



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