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What is Hypnosis? (i need YOUR OPINION)
23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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What I'm getting at is a more honest person would tell the person that hypnotherapy is nothing but a placebo effect and that you don't need me to change. If "hypnotherapy" works, then you could have accomplished the same thing by just believing in yourself. Instead, the patient is duped into thinking the hypnotist actually has some sort of "power" and is likely to keep going back for more help.

Yes, we're usually pretty careful about letting the person know the power to change is in them, not us. Otherwise, they become reliant. Yeah, you could have "accomplished the same thing by just believing in yourself", but if you were able to accomplish that, you wouldn't have gotten the problem in the first place.

Evert said:

To show that something is effective as a treatment it needs to perform better than a placebo, not as good as a placebo.

Per the stats I posted from American Health, hypnotherapy overall has a 93% success rate. Problem?

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Per the stats I posted from American Health, hypnotherapy overall has a 93% success rate. Problem?

At least that you know of. How many failures are hypnotherapists not reporting?

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Who said these were based on the hypnotherapist's reports? I wouldn't trust them either; to my knowledge, most don't do follow-ups.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

So why are you even quoting a meaningless statistic that someone likely pulled out of their ass?

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Why is it "likely"? Or did you just pull that out of your ass? ::)

I can give you my opinion (which is what the OP asked for), I can give you statistics, I can give you theory, I can give you history, I can give you case studies, I can tie them all together ... the bottom line is you'll argue no matter what, even when it's better than what you have. So, you know, knock yourself out. :)

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
avatar

I can give you my opinion

What is your opinion on enlarging your penis via one of Wendi's CDs?

I'm trying figure out if you should be to the left or right of Derezo on the crazy scale.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
avatar

Audio sessions have a relatively low success rate in my experience. Probably wouldn't do squat since I'm an analytical type ...

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
avatar

That's kind of a cop out answer. Do you think somebody could potentially have their penis grow due to legitimate face-to-face hypnotherapy?

Could somebody grow a second penis? Is there anything the mind cannot do, in your opinion?

l j
Member #10,584
January 2009
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Penis enlargement through hypnosis seems like an effective way of earning money.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Maybe they could make you think it was bigger!

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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That's kind of a cop out answer. Do you think somebody could potentially have their penis grow due to legitimate face-to-face hypnotherapy?

I can't consider "could". I know they have. I'm past "could" on this one.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

Why is it "likely"? Or did you just pull that out of your ass?

Your own early reply said you don't even think they are reliable and you're the pro-hypnosis guy here. Especially if there aren't any follow ups, you can't know what the success rate is.

Who said these were based on the hypnotherapist's reports? I wouldn't trust them either; to my knowledge, most don't do follow-ups.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
avatar

I can't consider "could". I know they have. I'm past "could" on this one.

What about the second penis? I'd like another one. Can you help me? Even if the success rate is low, I'm sure you could find enough interested people to get one success.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
avatar

Your own early reply said you don't even think they are reliable and you're the pro-hypnosis guy here. Especially if there aren't any follow ups, you can't know what the success rate is.

Um, what? I didn't say there were no follow-ups and I didn't say the statistics themselves were unreliable. I could say a lot of different things about a lot of different success rates with different therapists who have different methodologies and business models. Of course we can know the success rate, depending on how you go about researching it. I don't know specifically what they did. Neither do you. But you'll call it an ass-pull because it fits your worldview. Okay, cool. Don't put words in my mouth, kthx.

What about the second penis? I'd like another one. Can you help me? Even if the success rate is low, I'm sure you could find enough interested people to get one success.

If your genes don't code for it, your subconscious won't know how to do it. Sorry to shatter your dreams.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
avatar

First,

Again, low success rate

then

hypnotherapy overall has a 93% success rate.

Could you make up your mind, or at the very least be clear on what's being said?

I can't consider "could". I know they have. I'm past "could" on this one.

Citation needed.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

Okay, cool. Don't put words in my mouth, kthx.

Either you should be MUCH clearer, or you need to make up your mind. So far you've given two different answers for several questions. Its like you give the most convenient answer at the time to a given question.

See I was more on your side at the beginning, but your "defence" so far leaves a lot to be desired.

append: Besides I didn't put words in your mouth. I quoted exactly what you yourself said.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Sorry; this is why carrying on a bunch of conversations at once fails. Hypnosis for physical change has a low success rate because it depends highly on the individual. Simple stuff like quit smoking, weight loss, phobias, etc. are pretty much 100% by a competent hypnotherapist.

Evert said:

Citation needed.

I was asked for my opinion, I gave it. You can believe it or not, no skin off my back.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

And there's your classic non-argument. Once you get to a point you realize you're not getting anywhere you just quit ::)

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
avatar

Once you get to a point you realize you're not getting anywhere you just quit ::)

Seems like a logical outcome to me. Why would I keep banging my head against a wall? I gave you my opinion, you don't think it's real, cool, doesn't really affect my continued results, does it?

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
avatar

Hypnosis for physical change has a low success rate because it depends highly on the individual.

You beat me to it. >:(

It's the perfect business. You lost both your arms in the Iraq war? No problem! Come to me and I can help you regrow your arms. It's coded in your DNA, all I have to do is help you unlock your subconscious power.

After six sessions with six easy payments of $500, nothing happens. Sorry sir, you just didn't believe enough. No refunds.

Quote:

Simple stuff like quit smoking, weight loss, phobias, etc. are pretty much 100% by a competent hypnotherapist.

Because all of that stuff truly is "in the mind." But being able to help somebody with one of those things is no proof that hypnosis unlocks some subconscious power. Making that jump is ludicrous.

The success rate of physical change is "low" because it's bogus.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
avatar

No refunds.

Does Wendi give refunds? I didn't check. I do, but I won't take a case I don't think I can fix.

Quote:

Because all of that stuff truly is "in the mind." But being able to help somebody with one of those things is no proof that hypnosis unlocks some subconscious power.

Yes, because it doesn't. All a hypnotist does is get your subconscious to do with volition what it could (but usually won't) do on its own.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
avatar

Is this a question of the legitimacy of hypnotism? I mean, if suggestion wasn't successful we wouldn't have television commercials. They wouldn't work if hypnotism didn't work. There's very little difference. You repeat suggestions into your subject that are crafted in a way that will get the action you want.

Just like commercials, it's effectiveness is limited; first and foremost by the number of subjects exposed to it.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

james_lohr
Member #1,947
February 2002

Derezo said:

we wouldn't have television

We don't have television commercials. Oh BBC how I love thee. ;D

Hypnotists are given much the same treatment here too. :P

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

So so far it seems to me that even the hypnosis supporters can't prove its any better than the placebo effect. Why not just sell capsules full of icing sugar for $100 a bottle, and tell them it'll work after one month, or their money back?

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
avatar

Derezo said:

Is this a question of the legitimacy of hypnotism?

I don't think anybody is questioning the placebo effect combined with some sort of "power of suggestion," although the latter term would need some qualifications before I'd agree to anything.

The part most of us doubt is whether or not you can enlarge a person's penis, grow out a severed limb, or heal a crippled person via hypnosis, all of which Chris apparently thinks is possible with a "low success rate" assuming the patient tries hard enough and has some sort of magical gene that just needs to be thought into action.

The more scientific minded would say anything in the latter group is just rare coincidence. After all, if I did a rain dance every day, I would have, with a "low success rate," the ability to create a rain storm.



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