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The debt ceiling
raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

drier than the top 1% having 60% or more of all the money? Sure. I don't mind that at all. The richest pay the least percentage of tax based on the actual income. They pay a lot of people to find them ways to NOT pay tax. Due to the fact that they earn and have a lot more money, they pay more tax in an absolute sense. But that's not the issue here.

Who cares how much of the total percent they have? How it gets spent or saved is what affects the US economy. Your "actual income" claim isn't backed up with anything to justify it, unless I missed something here. The statistics I cited directly refute your claim, saying that the top 1% of wealthiest tax payers had the highest average tax rate of all brackets listed. Do note that table 1 says TAXES PAID, meaning these amounts weren't weaseled out of with breaks and loop holes, it is the amount that the government collected. How about you reply with real information instead of Liberal lies?

For those keeping track, statistics establish that the wealthiest already pay the most income taxes in both absolute and relative terms, but apparently there's no convincing some people. I don't see how Democrats can argue against such numbers and claim the rich aren't paying enough and actually believe it. It only makes sense that they're trying to mislead the public so they'll go along with wealth redistribution during the "transformation" of the USA into a Socialist country.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Just buy it overseas with cash you stealthily also store overseas.

Regarding a yacht, you'd still have to have it registered. Without the sales/import tax paper, that wouldn't be possible. But it's just an example... It's generally easier to hide income once than try to hide every thing you purchase.

Ron Paul claimed during the last elections that the increase in government purchases over the last ~15 years actually exceeded the entire income tax. So theoretically, if the government returned to prior spending limits, you could get rid of income tax altogether (and replace it with nothing).

The larger point is no matter how you look at it, the government needs to collect money regardless of what method is used. So it ought to use methods that are hard to cheat and easy to keep track. Income tax is neither of those two things. It's a ridiculously complex system with too many exemptions and loopholes and cheats.

It's crazy that people are so stuck on income tax as the benchmark of who pays taxes. It's only a single method... somebody who pays no income tax is not somebody who pays no taxes.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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raynebc said:

How about you reply with real information instead of Liberal lies?

How bout you stop being insulting and biased?

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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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That's weak, dude.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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That's weak, dude.

Yes, what he said was very weak.

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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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IS NOT! I'LL HOLD MY BREATH UNTIL I TURN BLUE! oh wait...

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Jonatan Hedborg
Member #4,886
July 2004
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raynebc said:

Liberal lies

Once you start using snarl words [1], your right to participate in a discussion is revoked.

relpatseht
Member #5,034
September 2004
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Personally, I enjoy watching educated discussion intertwined with, shall I say, a more common approach to these matters.

Anyway, all these career politicians held to the flame here, they aren't as idiotic, short sighted, and self serving as opinion claims. Alright, well, maybe they are quite close, but the trouble isn't finding a solution which creates a sustainable system, the problem they are trying to work out is migrating toward a sustainable system without losing enough stability to get them voted out and replaced with someone who will head in the other direction.

Your average voter is all for what appears to be a free handout. Something like social security? If you just shut that down the long term may get much brighter, but you also suddenly gain a few million people with no source of income and remove the planned source of income for a few million more. It takes longer than six years for the benefits of that change to become apparent and thus it is almost impossible to make it happen.

What we need is a good intermediary step. I'm empty for ideas, but, it isn't really my job to care about such things.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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{"name":"Dzp5P.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/4\/3\/43c57e17ff5371a8202dcaef9f6714f1.jpg","w":795,"h":800,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/4\/3\/43c57e17ff5371a8202dcaef9f6714f1"}Dzp5P.jpg

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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Are people signing up for this forum just to post in this thread, or is someone creating a lot of sockpuppets? :P

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lambik
Member #899
January 2001
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Proganisms perhaps ;-)

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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It's only SEO spammers adjusting to common anti-spamming safeguards. They are starting to realize that accounts that sit idle are often automatically deleted, and that they must post something that doesn't look like complete nonsense to get around that.

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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So hiring Indian labor for spamming has officially become cheaper than using bots/Xrumer then? :)

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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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It's more effective on active sites, at least. The approach is:

  1. Sign up

  2. Leave a comment on a thread such that it looks like you know what you're talking about

  3. Come back later and fill in your profile with spam

That helps prevent against sites that delete ghost accounts. And by waiting a bit to put in the spam, you may avoid getting caught by an admin who only looks at the recent entries.

furinkan
Member #10,271
October 2008
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raynebc said:

The top 1% of wealthiest tax payers paid 38% of all income taxes in 2008.

The top 1% has about 40% of our country's wealth. That's quite close to the percent of taxes they pay. Don't talk like they are being bled to death, and don't get pissy. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume you aren't in the top 1%, so why do you care?

Also what is wrong with socialism? We have social security, TANF, SNAP, WIC, and a host of socialist programs here in the states. Define what is bad about socialism before you go using it negatively.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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furinkan said:

Define what is bad about socialism before you go using it negatively.

Everybody's equal under communism, but some are more equal than others.
Same for capitalism.

"Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's exactly the opposite".

Karl Marx said:

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"

Sure, I'd love communism or ObamaCare if I didn't want to work. "I have a hangnail, so I can't do X, but I need a 40 plasma TV".

How many of you wanting this sort of crap are on the public dole already?

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

furinkan
Member #10,271
October 2008
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@Arthur: I said socialism. Its not the same thing as communism. Google it.

I also never said I wanted the programs i listed. Welfare and Social Security would be the first things gone if I was the all powerful politigod.

I'm all for paying people's living expenses if they can't work. But I would change a few things:

  1. No cash/checks: the government will seek out the cheapest rent in town for your household size and pay the landlord directly. Utilities are covered up to the mean for the area/household size/building type you live in. Any excess is up to the person in question.

  2. No food stamps: No trading food credits for money or buying JuJuBees because they are 'food'. Government cheese was good enough for my grandma, and its good enough for anybody else. If you don't want to eat cheap food, then you aren't hungry.

I think we can come to agree on some points...

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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furinkan said:

@Arthur: I said socialism. Its not the same thing as communism. Google it.

Quote:

The Marxist conception of socialism is that of a specific historical phase that will displace capitalism and precede communism. The major characteristics of socialism (particularly as conceived by Marx and Engels after the Paris Commune of 1871) are that the proletariat will control the means of production through a workers' state erected by the workers in their interests. Economic activity would still be organised through the use of incentive systems and social classes would still exist, but to a lesser and diminishing extent than under capitalism.

[1]

OK, so I did. Socialism is the embryonic stage of communism. Your point is?

[EDIT]

Quote:

No food stamps: No trading food credits for money or buying JuJuBees because they are 'food'. Government cheese was good enough for my grandma, and its good enough for anybody else. If you don't want to eat cheap food, then you aren't hungry.

I knew a guy about 6 years ago who'd find someone to go in a store with him, they'd select what they wanted, he'd put it in his cart, then they'd go outside, load up the food in the other guy's car, who'd pay the thief about 30 cents on the dollar. He'd go back in the store and buy cases of beer with the cash. It's like the analog hole for digital media, you can't prevent people from gaming the system one way or the other.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

furinkan
Member #10,271
October 2008
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I never said we should be communist or socialist. I said define what is wrong with socialism. I feel that socialism has its place in our lives (albeit not the current implementations, by far).

Also, socialism is only the embryonic stage of communism to Marx and his ilk. Read this. The basic definition at the top has nothing with Marx.

What is wrong with having that?

EDIT:
About foodstamps: I know people who do that right now. I'd solve the solution by never letting them choose what to buy in the first place. The only people who can pay for food 30 cents on the dollar are people who have money; they normally aren't into cheap cheese and cranberry juice. ;D

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
avatar

Quote:

A political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole

That's the first definition of the first hit. Notice it says community, not the state. So if you know of someone in your neighborhood who's old and crippled with arthritis or whatever, go out and buy them something, get together with some neighbors to build them a wheelchair ramp or whatever, don't waste several weeks of your life each year earning enough to let the government waste your paycheck on it.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

furinkan
Member #10,271
October 2008
avatar

Actually Google uses 'define' as a keyword, much like 'translate'. Notice that there is no big blue link at the top of it. Its not a site its a service from google.

Its nice that you and your community were able to come together and help the elderly. In my neck of the woods though, people only look out for themselves. There are always community projects, but they are poorly organized, not well directed, distributed, or funded. Its like we are missing something... like a decision making body of sorts... with deep pockets.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
avatar

furinkan said:

In my neck of the woods though, people only look out for themselves.

Sounds to me like decent people need to move then. Why should some government type come in there and force them to do something the selfish types don't want to do? Especially given that so much waste goes on when it's part of a giant bureaucratic ball of mud?

Maybe people could be more generous if they didn't have to slavedonate more than 1/4 of their work to the "magnanimous" government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Freedom_Day

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
avatar

Jonatan, that's a cool link. :)

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furinkan
Member #10,271
October 2008
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In the table 'tax freedom days for countries by date' it lists the tax burden percent for each country. India is the only country with less of a tax burden than us. I can't say that taxes are a good thing based on this table, but I can say we have very little to complain about.

We should be complaining more about how it is allocated, and less about the amount.

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

How bout you stop being insulting and biased?

Because I'm not fond of liars.

furinkan said:

The top 1% has about 40% of our country's wealth. That's quite close to the percent of taxes they pay. Don't talk like they are being bled to death, and don't get pissy. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume you aren't in the top 1%, so why do you care?

I certainly am not in the upper wealth class, I just don't believe in forced charity. I believe in everybody pulling their own weight to maintain the country and its services. To me, "fair share" is everybody paying the same relative tax rate (a percentage), not people paying a disproportionately higher amount of taxes just because they earn more revenue.

furinkan said:

Also what is wrong with socialism? We have social security, TANF, SNAP, WIC, and a host of socialist programs here in the states. Define what is bad about socialism before you go using it negatively.

As I stated above, it's against what I value. I value people and families taking care of themselves. I believe the Federal government overstepped its authority when it created those programs.

furinkan said:

I said define what is wrong with socialism.

What's wrong is that too many humans are lazy and greedy, I don't see how government could ever get efficient enough so that only people that actually meet the appropriate criteria receive entitlements. But getting that under control would require even more regulation and thus more government, or the current regulation would have to be severely improved.

furinkan said:

We should be complaining more about how it is allocated, and less about the amount.

Agreed. I wouldn't complain about paying higher taxes IF the increased revenue only went toward paying off the Federal debt. I'd be surprised if the debt was ever returned to zero.



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