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The debt ceiling
ImLeftFooted
Member #3,935
October 2003
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Where would you recommend a fellow USer live?

I'm seriously tired of the US. Our people are lazy, apathetic, powerless, and stupid. Failure is inevitable.

I'm guessing you'll find a lot more of that where Evert is idealizing. It's in the nature of people to be that way.

Better to just ignore them, they're everywhere and not going away.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Goalie Ca said:

Just stay away from toronto or alberta.

You dislike me that much? :(

Seriously though, I like Alberta.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Goalie Ca
Member #2,579
July 2002
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Hehe.. you albertans are funny. I'd rather live in calgary than toronto but your provincial politics kind of suck.

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Bah weep granah weep nini bong!

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Goalie Ca said:

Hehe.. you albertans are funny. I'd rather live in calgary than toronto but your provincial politics kind of suck.

I've completely tuned myself out of Provincial, and civic politics for the most part. Some federal stuff slips by. And some civic stuff wrt the new rink/arena and development of the former city center airport and anthony henday (ring road).

Otherwise I've just gotten tired of the jibber jabber. There's no one here to make jokes like Jon Stewart or Stephen Colbert :(

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Bob
Free Market Evangelist
September 2000
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There's no one here to make jokes like Jon Stewart or Stephen Colbert

I like Infoman, but that's in French and mainly Quebec centric.

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- Bob
[ -- All my signature links are 404 -- ]

Ben Delacob
Member #6,141
August 2005
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Imagine 100 people. 80 people divide 7% of the net earned wealth for themselves. Most of the 71 of these guys work pretty hard but 9 of them are unemployed. There are 19 guys who split the next 50% of the wealth. One guy gets 43% of the wealth. He must either be working really, really hard or maybe it's that the others are giving him nearly 43 percent of their wealth. Which sounds more plausible? (Stats from 2007 USA)

Arthur Kalliokoski, I respect your view of not wanting to take advantage of the wealth of others. But you've said your position is in making very little money and your admirably humble perspective skews your perspective. Most Americans work harder than you and the top one percent's wealth is mostly made off of the sweat of others. They have way, way more than is reasonable compensation for what they do. Money isn't distributed morally for work done by default. It's distributed exponentially by default. A progressive tax scheme is a great balance in reality. The Bush Tax cuts did not create jobs. They merely removed a system that helped make wealth be distributed in a slightly more fair manner. If a few lazy bums sponge up at the bottom in a Socialist program, that's a shame but it's less of a travesty (statistically and morally) than what's happening.

Edit: this is long enough

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Allegro html mockup code thread -website-
"two to the fighting eighth power"

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

Goalie Ca said:

Or an economist because guess where you might consider taxes on the balance sheet.

Assets: Anything being owned or controlled to produce value.
Liabilities: An obligation (such as a loan).
Equity: Your assets worth after all liabilities are paid out.

The real truth is, money that is not legally collected (ie. as taxes) is NOT the government's money, and therefore it is improper to count it as an asset. This kind of "it's our money before we collect it" thinking is why the government has been able to get this far into the red. If they had to balance the damn budget, this wouldn't have happened.

In any case, the wealthiest already collectively pay the most in taxes. Wealth distribution is forced charity, and I don't believe in it. Simplifying the tax code by starting at a flat rate instead of all the different brackets, loopholes, exemptions and other nonsense will help individuals and businesses in the fairest manner possible without giving tax cuts, which is favoritism.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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They need a book that explains it.

{"name":"obamamarxismfordummies.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/f\/bf31919e3a632b83105877279779dce6.jpg","w":319,"h":400,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/b\/f\/bf31919e3a632b83105877279779dce6"}obamamarxismfordummies.jpg

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Ben Delacob
Member #6,141
August 2005
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raynebc said:

Wealth distribution is forced charity, and I don't believe in it. Simplifying the tax code by starting at a flat rate

If you don't believe in wealth distribution, you want an actual flat tax, not a flat rate.

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Allegro html mockup code thread -website-
"two to the fighting eighth power"

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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raynebc said:

In any case, the wealthiest already collectively pay the most in taxes.

Maybe. Maybe. Most of them get away with paying almost no, or no tax at all. They clearly don't pay their share. I say take out all the tax loopholes, and leave the tax rate where it is.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Wealth means how much money you already have. Tax doesn't apply to that. High rates of income are taxed, but if you cut their throat with taxes, they'll just stop "working". Why work if someone's just going to rob you? Those naive liberals can't seem to learn from history or common sense. It does enable politicians to change the subject though, as the politics of envy are very persuasive.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Um, did something funny happen in the USA today? The way I'm hearing people talk, the Congress and Senate just gave up their authority to Obama and 13 yes-men .. sounds democratic, whatever it is!

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Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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if you cut their throat with taxes, they'll just stop "working"

So making people actually pay their taxes is tantamount to cutting their throat?

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Um, did something funny happen in the USA today?

No... Congress agreed to raise the debt limit and promise to talk about making cuts in the future. Just as expected.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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So making people actually pay their taxes is tantamount to cutting their throat?

There have to be some taxes, sure, but not when you're going to waste it making millionaire farmers rich with gasohol and paying them not to grow stuff, or wasting it making the dictators of third world nations rich when they sell off the foreign aid, or getting involved in Middle East countries that have been more or less at war for 8000 years. It also cuts back on production, since the punitive tax rates discourage it. Hell, I read something a couple days ago about how IT infrastructure has used less power than projected because of the recession.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

mike williams
Member #13,099
August 2011

Isn't it kind of laughable the debt ceiling? Has anyone ever looked at how much debt we have? How about a plan to lower that debt....instead we fight for months to raise it...

I wonder what other countries think of us?

Thanks
Mike Williams

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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It sounds like the USA is fucked[1]. :-/ Which is scary when you think about it. :o What the Hell is going to happen to this rock with somebody else in power, like China, India, or Russia? :-/

References

  1. I imagine Canada is fucked too.
raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

If you don't believe in wealth distribution, you want an actual flat tax, not a flat rate.

I would want everybody to pay the same percentage. I'd call that a tax rate, and not wealth distribution because everybody's paying the same relative amount. Having everybody pay the same absolute amount would not be feasible because lower income citizens cannot pay as much in dollars as higher income citizens. This means everybody would either pay a smaller absolute amount (not enough taxes collected to pay for government services) or lower income citizens would need to be given tax breaks (effectively destroying any notion of a flat tax rate).

Maybe. Maybe. Most of them get away with paying almost no, or no tax at all. They clearly don't pay their share. I say take out all the tax loopholes, and leave the tax rate where it is.

Maybe you should actually look up some real numbers instead of believing the lies you're fed. Try some IRS data on for size:
http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html
The top 1% of wealthiest tax payers paid 38% of all income taxes in 2008. The lowest 50% of wealthiest tax payers paid 12.75% of all income taxes. But why not make them pay less and bleed the richest even drier?

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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When the government robs Peter to pay Paul, they can always count on the support of Paul.

Closely related:

Getting a man to understand the rightness of something is extremely difficult when his income depends on not understanding it.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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raynebc said:

The top 1% of wealthiest tax payers paid 38% of all income taxes in 2008. The lowest 50% of wealthiest tax payers paid 12.75% of all income taxes. But why not make them pay less and bleed the richest even drier?

drier than the top 1% having 60% or more of all the money? Sure. I don't mind that at all. The richest pay the least percentage of tax based on the actual income. They pay a lot of people to find them ways to NOT pay tax. Due to the fact that they earn and have a lot more money, they pay more tax in an absolute sense. But that's not the issue here.

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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They pay a lot of people to find them ways to NOT pay tax.

Hence the flat rate tax. Due to corrupt politicians accepting bribescontributions, the tax code is riddled with exceptions. That's not the fault of Adam Smith or capitalism, but just human nature (greedy politicians float to the top and lazy citizens don't kick them out).

It would help if the government didn't pander to every special interest group and egg on the lazy ignorant bums who expect the government to provide things "for free".

A good example of government waste are the bunny inspectors.

I bet the latest version of Madame Defarge is in high school already.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Income tax is silly, no matter how it is implemented.

I'd rather there be a federal consumption tax. You can hide income by moving it around, but you cannot hide the purchase of a million dollar yacht.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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You can hide income by moving it around, but you cannot hide the purchase of a million dollar yacht.

Just buy it overseas with cash you stealthily also store overseas.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
avatar

Well, hell, let's just tax the whole world. Obama would like that!

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.



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