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Why using Python is supporting bigotry
Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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I haven't noticed that indies are caving to shaming tactics and can't quite imagine it really happening - do you have some examples? (Unless you just mean games that are no good anyway?)

There was one near the end of 2014 and mid 2015, but I'm having trouble finding them. I'm asking around to see if anyone can remember their names. I know Elysian Shadows had a blog entry where they had started self-censoring because they started to subconsciously worrying about if their game would offend people instead of just focusing on it being fun.

Games that are no good anyway would be like Tale of Tales (think that is the name) where the developers (Sunset) shut down. They catered to SJWs and apparently the game didn't get played much and the SJW led PR/Marketing group they had (led by Leigh Alexander I think it was) didn't even bother trying to promote the game.

Speaking of which, a while ago I googled whether social justice and feminism and stuff as we know it happens in Japan. The impression I got was it didn't really. I don't feel like googling it again right now though. Thoughts?

Nope, the UN even tried to tell Japan to stop making games that sexualized women or had abuse toward fictional women. A Japanese spokeswoman basically told them that the UN needed to use their resources to worry about real women instead of fictionalized women.

Let's not forget that the UN named Wonder Woman honorary ambassador for women (yep, a fictional woman that embodies empowerment), but quickly removed her because: the comic book character is "not culturally encompassing or sensitive" and was an inappropriate choice at a time "when the headline news in United States and the world is the objectification of women and girls."

They will never be happy because they will always have the perception that something is wrong and always fight. Look at feminism:

  • Wanted the right to vote; got it.

  • Wanted equal pay; got it via the Equal Pay Act

  • Even though economists have debunked the gender pay gap since 90s, still fighting to end it because they refuse to believe it isn't real.

  • Even though a woman can go for any job she wants, they perceive male dominated fields as sexist. (Note: You see them demanding more women in tech, but not more men in nursing or more women in oil rigs, mining, logging, and the other extremely dangerous jobs, but they are about equality [never mind it being a one sided equation]).

My perception is that I'm not equal because I'm fat and have a special needs family. I think Matthew should give me admin permissions, custom avatars, themes, and host all my experiments right this second. I think everyone should dumb down their knowledge of programming and game development to make me look better. Everyone should praise me as the next <insert icon developer here> without me having to show my abilities. I'm not wanting me to be treated superior to everyone here, this is just my call for equality for lard asses with special circumstances.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

I'm straight up disabled. But you don't see me shoehorning it into conversations as if it somehow magically helps me win a debate, or that it somehow invalidates other people's criticism for "not" being disabled.

But then again, I don't see disability as some flag of pride, to rally around. It's just one thing about me. I don't derive my entire identity from it, so I don't feel personally attacked when people discuss disabilities, or the fact that plenty of people with disability parking permits are actually just jerks. I don't turn into an emotional mess because there's more to me than a checklist of victim labels.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
avatar

All I did was modify feminist arguments about tech and oriented them for this site and added in a few personal details. Since I'm not a person of color or female I had to go with the two things in my favor that feminists will say you are terrible if you make any criticism toward me about them. Can't tell me to lose weight because it is fat shaming and can't make any off color remarks about my family or you are terrible too.

Let's change my argument:

My perception is that I'm not equal because I'm fat and have a special needs family. I think Matthew should give me admin permissions, custom avatars, themes, and host all my experiments right this second. I think everyone should dumb down their knowledge of programming and game development to make me look better. Everyone should praise me as the next <insert icon developer here> without me having to show my abilities. I'm not wanting me to be treated superior to everyone here, this is just my call for equality for lard asses with special circumstances.

Back to ones I see for feminist groups:

Quote:

I'm not equal because I'm a female person of color and face hardships because of it. Women need better representation in tech, gaming, and more laws to protect them from harsh criticism, and hate speech; they shouldn't be considered free speech. Women have issues with the tech interviews so they should be made simpler to get more women into tech fields, but men don't need the interview simplified. We should implement quotas and force more women into tech; meritocracy should be ignored because it just leads to sexism. Feminism is about equality.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

To be clear, I'm not criticizing you in this thread. You're not shoehorning in your weight into discussions as if it wins an argument (about something other than a weight-related topic).

Likewise, I only mention my disability when it's applicable. (Welfare, disability, people whining about their victimhood, etc.) I don't want pity. Pity doesn't pay my bills. Victimhood doesn't pay my bills.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Aaron, if I had any respect for you before (which I did), it's certainly gone now.

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Seriously? As far as you two are concerned, there are more important things than this crazy YouTube feminism soap opera. Don't write off the entire person for such a stupid reason.

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

It's been more of a pattern with him.

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

That's not the point. Spending your life trying to discredit other people (even if they're radical feminists) isn't exactly constructive, is it? Likewise, judging an entire person only on their political views isn't constructive. ;)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

When peoples' online personas exhibit hostility to those with opposing viewpoints, it reveals a fair amount about their character.

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

Now you seem to judge him on how he judges others. Wasn't the whole thread about that?

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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With the political climate, gaining a person's respect feels like a pointless endeavor because too many people are so sensitive that they lose respect for people solely based on their difference in views.

I also see a lot of "No True Scotsman" fallacy going around as I've seen people direct others to "learn about feminism" by going to feminism.org and dismissing Youtube feminists and the volatile feminists (like the ones that disrupt events where men are gathered to discuss men's health) as not real feminists. I notice this is also the same people who put down BLM, GamerGate, Alt-Right, et. al. based on the volatile members and turn round expecting everyone to ignored the volatile feminists and not label feminism bad based on them.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
avatar

There are nutjobs in every realm. Judging a group solely on the basis of it's crazies takes away any merit the group had on its own. There are radical Muslim terrorists. Does that make all Muslims bad? There are white supremacists. Does that make all whites bad? There are racial gangs. Does that make all Blacks / Latinos bad? There are misogynistic women haters. Does that make all men bad? I think you see my point.

The way it seems to me is that one side here believes all feminism is bad because of a bunch of zealots and wackos who are more prominent in the media. You guys seem willing to dismiss all feminism as without merit because of a few crazies who take it to the extreme.

I don't really know what the other side stands for, because basically the only one here defending feminism is Aaron, thus he takes all the blame for all of your resentment towards feminism.

Is this all we have left to discuss here anymore? allegro.cc is becoming quite the lame duck. Don't any of you program anymore? Or do you just like to hang out at allegro.cc and bicker about pointless drivel? :-/

</2c>

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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The issue with feminism is not the "the crazies". It's the ideology and the assumptions, how widespread it is, where it's accepted, that it seems to be spreading, etc. The crazies just take the basic ideology and the dogma and add to that.

One of the basic ideas is that gender disparity is proof of sexism. This is the basis of a lot of feminist activism in the West today, including van Rossum's. It's simply anti-scientific, which is why they want to shame people into silence instead of arguing their point. It works like religion in that regard and several others.

There are several other similar points, but I don't want to repeat myself.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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What do you mean? They think that correlation equals causation, because they are ignoring other options and factors.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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So blacks are predominantly poor because they are inferior? That's the reasoning you're using. Likewise, women are justifiably less equitably rewarded than men are because they are physically weaker and therefore choose lesser work? That's what I hear when I read what you have to say.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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What the hell you talking about? Are you trolling now?

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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Men and women are different. If you ignore that, you can make anything look like an injustice. Which is what much feminist ideology and propaganda is about. The radical feminists from 40 years ago, which mostly define the mainstream feminism of today, are fighting a "gender war", basically a power struggle. And they lie to get other people onboard with the "fight for gender equality". It's pretty standard stuff, it's done by other groups that have a political agenda too.

The social psychologist Jonathan Haidt explains it perfectly:

video

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

Likewise, women are justifiably less equitably rewarded than men are because they are physically weaker and therefore choose lesser work?

FTFY. My finacee is an early childhood educator (i.e., daycare worker). Her friends are also daycare workers, teachers, or care workers (i.e., aiding elderly people living at home that require assistance). Most of these jobs are not very highly paid. These women did not choose these jobs because they pay excellent. They chose these jobs because they pay better than minimum wage and were something they could see themselves doing. A much better career choice would have been nursing, but that requires a lot more studying, hard factual science, and more gruesome tasks.

The men in our circles are mostly industrial laborers or "technologists". Either harder work, or more technical, and more mechanical/machine based than people based. This is not a coincidence. In general, men and women are naturally drawn to different things. In fact, I've read of studies showing that the more free a nation is to pursue any career choices you want the more gendered the nation becomes: women end up staying home or taking low paying part-time jobs in predominantly female fields like child care and retail, and men continue to choose machine-based, technical work. You mainly see women breaking into STEM fields in nations where they're less free to choose whatever they want (i.e., East Asia).

We reject Feminism because we recognize that it's in conflict with reality, and acknowledge the harmful effects that it is having on society. It's really quite simple if you open your mind to the possibility that all ideas are open to scrutiny.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
avatar

There are nutjobs in every realm. Judging a group solely on the basis of it's crazies takes away any merit the group had on its own. There are radical Muslim terrorists. Does that make all Muslims bad? There are white supremacists. Does that make all whites bad? There are racial gangs. Does that make all Blacks / Latinos bad? There are misogynistic women haters. Does that make all men bad?

Depending on the media you listen to, the answer is yes across the board. After all, according to different media sites, even allegedly game oriented sites claim the game industry hates women and gamers are full of misogynists. According to MTV white straight males are to blame for everything.

So blacks are predominantly poor because they are inferior? That's the reasoning you're using.

For humor purposes:

video

Though, last data I saw showed that Asians are paid more in tech than whites, does that mean we get to cry pay gap over that?

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

Curiously, this woman actually appears to be a Feminist, and still thinks there's a chance that it can recover:

video

I don't particularly think that she understands the entire depth of issues surrounding Feminism today, but she certainly makes a lot of good arguments against modern day Feminism, and it's pretty clear that she's not a men's rights activist, but a Feminist!

Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
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Quote:

I'm a feminist.

non-gender-conforming bisexual.

...oh my...I'm predicting a complete mental breakdown in a few years.

----------------------------------------------------
Please check out my songs:
https://soundcloud.com/dont-rob-the-machina

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
avatar

Dizzy Egg said:

...oh my...I'm predicting a complete mental breakdown in a few years.

Nah, just means he dates men, women, attack helicopters, cars, and whatever else they decide to identify as in order to feel special like their parents told them.

Until feminists got into it sex and gender were the same thing. Now doctors and scientists have two genders (male and female) while feminists have no-binary, gender fluid, et. al. and expect doctors to acknowledge their delusions. I don't clump transgender in there as they are transitioning from male to female or female to male so it is still just two genders.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
avatar

What about the children....won't somebody think of the children!....unless he's like, 14 or something.

Then hopefully he'll grow out of it.

----------------------------------------------------
Please check out my songs:
https://soundcloud.com/dont-rob-the-machina

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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