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Why using Python is supporting bigotry
LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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torhu said:

Yeah, but I think it's good to know what people's opinions are in cases where they are relevant. And I think it is in this case.

I can see how his opinions on programming and language design would be relevant, but not his opinions on feminism.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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Well, he is sort of the community leader. Now I'm talking about actual sexist behavior, not feminism.

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

I think you've got it a bit backwards.

Probably :) You're right that that single tweet isn't clear.

From what I've read - at first sight, what he's doing to support women who are interested in Python sounds quite good. Perhaps it could be honed a little, but overall, why not? It's a pretty positive message.

On the other hand, this line about sexism is negative. Most people don't have sexism on their minds, don't want to be sexist, and will acknowledge it, apologise and fix it if they are rightly called out. This line not only draws attention to a very negative phenomenon that people don't want to think about, it is also loaded with the accusation that people are sexist, and aren't acknowledging it and fixing it, along with a helping of "what women say goes". None of this has anything to do with Python, the real reason people are interested in this celebrity.

So - it's a pretty stupid tweet, and one that will work against his case. Instead of attracting and supporting the right women (genuine Python users) and building a strong community without leaving the men out in the cold, he will be attracting the wrong women (the gender-focused, anti-men kind) and pushing away his male audience.

Realistically though - I don't think this affects Python's future success at all. Either it's useful or it's not, regardless of who's in the community and who goes to the conferences. And in fairness to the guy, when I looked through his recent tweets, everything looked language-focused. He probably made a one-off mistake and now regrets it.

[EDIT]

Perhaps as long as a "restrain" myself on the official game forums, people will be able to accept the distinction between work and personal life.

Yes, a lot of people will. You'll need to remind yourself of that constantly though, because the noisiest people will be the ones who won't.

bamccaig said:

Why are we allowing our colleges and universities to become toxic towards the truth?

We're actually not. Those colleges and universities are losing funding and future enrolments big-time. Don't forget that the US just elected Trump (even if it was a protest vote). You're in better company than you think.

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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It definitely wasn't a one-off mistake, as Google would tell you :P

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Oh dear. Rather than get involved any more, I think I'll take your word for it.

But I can assure you that we use Python successfully here without thinking about any of this, and that can always be true no matter what's going on in the community.

P.S. Chris and bambams, don't miss my edit above :)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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We're actually not. Those colleges and universities are losing funding and future enrolments big-time. Don't forget that the US just elected Trump. You're in better company than you think.

How do you figure? The phenomenon seems to be spreading. Their numbers aren't necessarily down. Maybe it looks that way because the majority of students are now women and it seems the majority of them are majoring in gender studies. :D

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Perhaps. But the worse it gets, the more people will recognise the need for an alternative, and work to create that alternative. It's already started balancing itself out (see Mizzou enrolment and funding drops), and it'll continue to do so. :)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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The Mizzou thing appears to be in response to racial protests. I think it's fair to say that women are a far more powerful "minority group" than black people. They're virtually untouchable. You can't even question women in our society. You can question black people.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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Polybios said:

IMHO, it's highly detrimental to mix politics into everything in the long run. Professionals just shouldn't care.

That is impossible to do because it is at the point where they don't allow neutrals anymore. If you are neutral, then you are "part of the problem".

Perhaps as long as a "restrain" myself on the official game forums, people will be able to accept the distinction between work and personal life.

Rational people can accept the distinction. Politically charged groups and the radically unstable minded people that make them up cannot. I've seen many groups get people fired because of their personal views.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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torhu said:

Well, he is sort of the community leader.

Ah, there's the thing I guess - that's just not something that is important to me. I only care about languages themselves, not the people involved with them. I'm not really a people person.

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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ITT: Fight feminism because it's oppressing men. Kind of like you'd believe how Christians are being oppressed in America, if you listen to Fox News...

(addendum: This doesn't apply to everyone.)

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

That is impossible to do because it is at the point where they don't allow neutrals anymore. If you are neutral, then you are "part of the problem".

All that SJW stuff is mostly about talking "correctly", isn't it? That reminds me of former Communist Eastern Europe a bit: "Comrade, we haven't heard a clear affirmation of the principles of Marxism-Leninism from you... Don't you agree with the latest resolutions of the central committee?"

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

bamccaig said:

You can't even question women in our society.

Not my experience. ;)

Honestly, my experience is I've known one or two women who even remotely resemble the radical feminist stereotypes or whatever you want to call them, and everyone else I know can see it and these women have no power at all. It's really not so bad. And in places where it is bad, it gets noticed and dealt with.

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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Here in Norway, the radical feminists have political power. And they certainly do in the US. But this was not about political power per se.

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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torhu said:

And they certainly do in the US.

I don't know if you've been paying attention but the 'family values' (e.g., ban abortion, conservative social values, Trump "Grab 'em by the Pussy" apologists) Republican party is in power in the legislature and executive branches. They also control most states legislatures and other local governments.

The Democrats are powerless, and I don't see how an SJW would be anything other than Democrat.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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Politics is complicated. Feminists are mostly concerned with gender issues, and nowadays also race issues. There's a website you can look at that deals with US gender issues. I'm not familiar with it, no idea how good of a source it is or not. Here in Norway "gender equality" in politics nowadays mostly means special treatment of women.

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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Ok, but how are radical feminists in power?

You side-stepped.

Also that website is so biased it's not funny. Iran is not gynocentric. Whitewashing 101.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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Radical feminists are not "in power". Politics is still complicated, like it was ten minutes ago. And I'll bet that website is way less biased than most feminist ones. You have to look past their click-baitey titles and that. And I have no idea why you are bringing Iran into this.

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Power doesn't have to come down the chain from Trump, given that we live in a society which permits a lot of free will. The idea of the term "social justice" is the idea of using social tricks - persuasion, manipulation, badmouthing, etc. - to get justice for a perceived wrongdoing. An example might be getting someone fired because they tweeted something controversial. What you're doing is taking advantage of the fact that their employer might want to distance themselves from the gossip that will ensue. None of that needs the government's participation to happen, but it is a form of power.

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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And if you're fired for voicing your opinions, it's somehow not the employers fault?

Whether you're a radical feminist or a mens right activist, you're blind to the class struggle that only has one benefactor: the rich and powerful. The 1% of 1%.

Keep it up. You're getting nowhere while the bourgeoisie leech the remainder of your wealth. :)

torhu said:

And I have no idea why you are bringing Iran into this.

https://www.avoiceformen.com/gynocentrism/the-myth-of-patriarchal-oppression-in-iran/

It was on the front page when I visited. The article is crap. Here's an analogy: I write an article about how gender dysphoria is accepted in Iran. Surgery is provided by the state at nearly no cost to the patient. But I leave out that Iran is staunchly anti-homosexual; gays and lesbians are forced to undertake reassignment surgery; and afterwards, they are social outcasts. Same topic, two different spins. That's this website in a nutshell: twisting the truth.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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Aaron Bolyard, do you think that men an women should have equal rights and opportunities?

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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torhu said:

Aaron Bolyard, do you think that men an women should have equal rights and opportunities?

I'm a feminist. What do you think?

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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At least you came clean. Fuck you, bigot.

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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Gladly. 8-) I'm also a socialist, atheist, non-gender-conforming bisexual. Got any more insults for me now?

If I think of more labels I use for myself I'll let you know!

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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You do know that labels have meanings, right?



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