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Why using Python is supporting bigotry
Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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I'm so glad my wife isn't a feminist. 8-)

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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Why, so she doesn't complain that you keep her on a leash in the kitchen? You evil misogynistic patriarch! >:(

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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My wife is too strong to need feminism. 8-)

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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Congrats ;)

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APPEND:
Woah, I actually read the article linked to on van Rossum's Twitter. This wonderful quote just about sums it up:

Quote:

Get in the habit of treating your maleness as an unearned privilege that you have to actively work to cede rather than femaleness being an unearned disadvantage that women have to work to overcome.

Quote:

torhu said:

I already answered that, let's not go round in circles

Where?

My third post from the top.

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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Wow, you didn't even read the article before posting this thread?

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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Nope, the tweet was meant as an example of a typical feminist statement that the guy has made.

Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

torhu said:

Does he? So what he is up to then?

Getting girls to make him drinks.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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He SERIOUSLY did a talk... on trolls? So instead of not giving trolls your time... he gives them an HOUR LONG TALK?!

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
avatar

Yeah, but to be fair I suppose it's meant to be entertaining more than serious. Maybe he's be a bit too eager to explain away the usual Python weaknesses, though. Where there is troll, there is fire. Maybe ;D

amarillion
Member #940
January 2001
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Why do you care so much?

Seriously, how does this affect you?

--
Martijn van Iersel | My Blog | Sin & Cos | Tegel tilemap editor | TINS 2017

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
avatar

Should I only care if it affects me personally? It's not unlikely that I will end up being affected by this same ideology. It's an ideology and a false narrative that exists in many places. It seems to be spreading where I live.

I argue against bad ideas because we have to do that. And people have to know. And this is relevant to the programming community.

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

I fail to see what this has to do with Python. I think you should have named the thread "I dislike some random guy's opinion on some random subject OMG!11111".

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

amarillion
Member #940
January 2001
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torhu said:

Should I only care if it affects me personally?

If it affected you personally, I'd understand better why you cared.
I think you're getting all hot and bothered over nothing.

--
Martijn van Iersel | My Blog | Sin & Cos | Tegel tilemap editor | TINS 2017

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ;D

Elias:
- feminist writes a stupid blog containing "When a woman tells you something is sexist, believe her"
- creator of Python makes a tweet making fun of it
- SJWs come out in force and boycott Python

This is good news. Now we can replace Python with something statically typed. I would say 'strongly' typed but tdammers told me off on IRC for using that term since it's gendered and therefore anti-feminist. 8-)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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Elias said:

I fail to see what this has to do with Python. I think you should have named the thread "I dislike some random guy's opinion on some random subject OMG!11111".

Some random guy? Maybe if you couldn't care less about Python, but I think Python is great :P

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I think you've got it a bit backwards. I don't think van Rossum was making fun of the article--rather, he seemed supportive by spreading the message, considering he is a feminist--but I mean, 140 characters (a quote + article link) isn't much to derive any context. And anti-SJW types are upset (like torhu), as far as I can tell.

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

>:(

I'm too ignorant (or too old?) to understand SJWs and/or feminism I think, I just don't want my beloved Python dragged into it in any way...

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
avatar

@Aaron Bolyard: A good starting place for the context is http://bfy.tw/9WZd

Elias said:

I just don't want my beloved Python dragged into it in any way...

My feelings exactly.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

I think a language developer should have the attitude of an old wise sage. Only opening his mouth when he has something profound to say.

He's representing the attitudes of the language and the people who decide how it functions. Politics should not be apart of that equation.

Even if he thought that way, he should have delegated the opinion to someone under the title of "community representative" or something like that. So any backlash could be attributed to the representative and not the figurehead of the language.

I've never noticed that this was a "feature" until Python didn't have it--the feature of having a stoic leader. You look at C/C++/D/etc, you never have to justify a random tweet to your team or boss. Instead of being a blank slate --like a research paper to be treated on its logical validity--you're now looking at the human behind-the-scenes.

And I'm not saying this because he's talking about feminism. I'm saying, in general, he shouldn't be talking about any kind of stuff like that. I don't care about his opinions on foreign policy, religion, on vegan diets, or on the best deodorant. He should stick to his expert niche.

Regardless of a perfect world, the human world doesn't like treating people as "experts on some stuff, and average on others." The second he gives an average opinion, using his authority as an expert, he has diluted his expert authority.

Perhaps I'm thinking too far into it. Perhaps I'm wrong. I welcome any input as this is kind a stream-of-consciousness of a new revelation.

One thing, I personally struggle with, is how, once I become successful, I will deal with my community. Will I have to shut off all personal tweets? Will I have to stick to anonymous communication for my personal life? I do not want to alienate people from my game for any reason EXCEPT THE GAME. That is, someone loves the game (like here, we love Python), and then the leader says something you disagree with and even if you still like the product... there's a "chink in the armor" in your mind.

Like when you find out a great movie you love, was made by a guy that murdered his wife, or a pedophile. Can you still enjoy the movie? And even if so, will you ever KNOW you enjoy it the same as had you never heard something that broke the fantasy? Will the idea pop into your head every time you watch it?

I'm such an expressive person, naturally. And I can be very passionate in my arguments. I would feel sad if I have to mute myself for the sake of the game community (although I guess anon accounts are still a workable solution). Having to decide between one "love" and another.

On the otherhand, I'm sure my grave is already dug on social media. So anyone who wants to Google my butt can easily find something they disagree with--it would be impossible to "purge" my signature at this point. Perhaps as long as a "restrain" myself on the official game forums, people will be able to accept the distinction between work and personal life. (And to bring it RIGHT BACK to topical, SJW surely don't like that idea with the #Opalgate fiasco on github starting from a tweet from a personal twitter account.)

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
avatar

Know your own limits, tread carefully in areas where your knowledge is limited, listen to what smart people with knowledge of the subject say. Keep your mouth shut if in doubt, or just ask questions instead of stating opinions. Etc.

van Rossum is perhaps doing a good job in the context of language development, dealing with complex social issues is another matter. He's a hardcore geek, after all. Just look at his 2016 Pycon talk. Feminists are good at using emotional manipulation, and they have a wealth of propaganda behind their talking points. It's a completely different scenario than technical discussions on the Python mailing list.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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This comes as no surprise. The Python community is heavily entangled with SJW's. They've gone "full retard" on the codes of conduct and stuff. I imagine it leaves many Python devs walking on egg shells. I wonder how many female Python programmers there are, and how many non-programmers are making noise in the community for special treatment where they aren't even going to be.

The saddest part about this article is probably that it's mysogynistic itself: it implies that "femaleness" is a weakness, and "maleness" is a strength. That's an incredibly toxic message to be sending to girls and women. That is the Feminist message. Women need to be more like men, according to Feminists. They view femininity as a flaw. It's no surprise that most hardcore feminists are lesbians and bisexuals (or men).

Feminism is not about equality of the sexes anymore. If it was it would disband because they have it. Feminism is a political force for power and money. "Activism" AKA bitching and moaning about made up lies is their day job. It is actually harmful to most girls and women, and strongly opposes their choices. Feminists are destructive, not constructive. They're like the children that destroy other children's toys or creations because they don't have them.

The biggest problem with anybody, let alone the BDFL of a software project, supporting these people is that they're supporting bad ideas and poisoning the thoughts and minds of our world and industry. Probably the biggest harm that Feminists are doing to our world right now is crippling free thought, speech, and research on college and university campuses. We know it's a bad idea to suppress free thought. Why are we allowing our colleges and universities to become toxic towards the truth? Why are we treating college and university students like kindergarteners?

If you don't consider this harmful then you're an idiot. Odds are, Guido supports the SJWs because he thinks he's doing a good thing. Being talented or smart in some fields doesn't mean you're smart in all of them. Case in point: many computer engineers still believe in religions and deities. You can be smart and still be an idiot. In general, our brains are incredibly fallible. We've gotten this far, but perhaps we've piqued and are destined to destroy ourselves. That certainly seems to be the case.

Append:

I think a language developer should have the attitude of an old wise sage. Only opening his mouth when he has something profound to say.

He's representing the attitudes of the language and the people who decide how it functions. Politics should not be apart of that equation.

Well said.

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

Without social media, we would still regard him as a professional. ::)

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
avatar

Yeah, but I think it's good to know what people's opinions are in cases where they are relevant. And I think it is in this case.

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

IMHO, it's highly detrimental to mix politics into everything in the long run. Professionals just shouldn't care.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
avatar

I think it would be appropriate to say something if the Python community (whatever that means) actually had some kind of "sexism problem".



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