Why using Python is supporting bigotry
torhu
Aaron Bolyard

Wee, another quarterly anti-feminist thread!

torhu

Right, were you already familiar with this?

Aaron Bolyard

I'm familiar with anti-feminist threads being posted four times a year on average.

Are you talking about the tweet? I don't know the context. I read the article in the tweet and generally agree with the idea. Does that make me a bigot? Or does not agreeing with it make one a bigot? I don't know. :'(

torhu

Supporting the kind of "correlation equals causation" feminism that van Rossum supports makes you a bigot in practice, I think. Because of the kind of politics that feminist activist in The West generally want. And van Rossum seems to support that.

raynebc

Several of the items on that numbered list boil down to "go out of your way to support feminism instead of treating all people equally or based on merit". I consider that to be bullshit. Plus the list pushes typical cliché falsehoods like "women are paid less than men due to institutional sexism instead of their life choices." A man not being a supporter of modern feminism does not automatically make him a misogynist, and any suggestion to the contrary is misandry.

Aaron Bolyard
torhu said:

Supporting the kind of "correlation equals causation" feminism that van Rossum supports makes you a bigot in practice, I think.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Can you provide examples?

Do you think being intolerant of intolerance is a form bigotry?

torhu
raynebc said:

Several of the items on that numbered list boil down to "go out of your way to support feminism instead of treating all people equally or based on merit". I consider that to be . Plus the list pushes typical cliché falsehoods like "women are paid less than men due to institutional sexism instead of their life choices."

Yeah, that's especially ironic if you consider how stereotypically "meritocratic" van Rossum's career has been. He was hired by Google, I think mainly to work on The App Engine, which was written in Python, or at least had a Python API. Then he quit to join DropBox while they were in their early phase. All the while having a family. Imagine the kind of money of financial guarantees the guy probably had for him to quit Google for DropBox in that situation. What a hypocryte.

Quote:

A man not being a supporter of modern feminism does not automatically make him a misogynist, and any suggestion to the contrary is misandry.

Yes, but no.

Do you think being intolerant of intolerance is a form bigotry?

Isn't that more or less the definition or bigotry?

Aaron Bolyard
torhu said:

Isn't that more or less the definition or bigotry?

No. It's a philosophical question and has no semantically or objectively right or wrong answer.

I'd like to add I like programming and since von Rossum does, that makes me a bigot like him too, according to your logic. Do you like programming? ;D

torhu

No, that's not the logic I'm using. He's the lead of the Python project, and he supports bigotry against men. Using Python does not make you a bigot.

Aaron Bolyard

What bigotry against men?

torhu

I already answered that, let's not go round in circles 8-)

SiegeLord

I mean, the man created Python. With those kinds of mental defects, it's no wonder his opinions on other aspects of life are similarly warped. You kind of just shake your head and move on. In this specific case, use tabs for indentation in Python files to spite the greater Python community :P.

torhu

{"name":"610754","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/2\/8\/28d0997e2995823478d1d94f5b9f34fb.jpg","w":400,"h":400,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/2\/8\/28d0997e2995823478d1d94f5b9f34fb"}610754

I think Python is probably the best dynamic scripting language today from a pragmatic standpoint. But their "benevolent dictator" is not so benevolent anymore. It's a good case for democracy, or rather, meritocracy. If Linus Torvalds went off the rails like this, he would want the community to fire him >:(

Aaron Bolyard
torhu said:

I already answered that, let's not go round in circles

Where?

Chris Katko

Python is a snake.

Snake == virtual penis.

Patriarchy has been confirmed by science.

torhu

A snake is a living dildo, have you never been to a Swedish porn shop?

Aaron Bolyard

I see. It's evident you just want a safe space to lambast feminism.

Have at it.

torhu

Call your mom's cell cell phone when you have figured out a real reply, it's usually at my bedside table :-*

Aaron Bolyard

You're a self-admitted necrophiliac (paragraph 2), congrats! :D

Common online debate has one functional purpose: to re-affirm one's own views while humiliating the other party. There is no desire to learn more about the other party, unless it is useful in mocking them, and there is no desire to reflect on one's own views. In simple words, it's juvenile. Case in point: our discussion.

torhu

My point was to inform people of this problem that the Python project has. What's yours? Sorry about your mother, but that doesn't give you any kind of point here ;)

Aaron Bolyard

You've done a terribly poor job of informing. I know more from von Rossum from a quick search than your entire post history in this thread.

Are you bitter that von Rossum is a feminist in the tech world? Are you upset that he dares try and get women involved in software development? Are you angered he asked for questions from women at a Python convention?

I only know you 1) don't like him 2) are upset by his tweet. That's the only information you've provided.

torhu

You are assuming a lot of things here. Not just about me, but about van Rossum. If I oppose the KKK, I'm not "bitter on the behalf of black people", most likely I just think that racism is a bad.

And for instance: van Rossum did not just "ask for questions from women". You need to look at all the information here, you seem to be ignoring the parts you don't like.

Gideon Weems

Guido has nothing to gain by white knighting, as he drowns in the wet panties of computer girls as-is.

torhu

Does he? So what he is up to then?

Chris Katko

I'm so glad my wife isn't a feminist. 8-)

torhu

Why, so she doesn't complain that you keep her on a leash in the kitchen? You evil misogynistic patriarch! >:(

Chris Katko

My wife is too strong to need feminism. 8-)

torhu

Congrats ;)

{"name":"610759","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/2\/e\/2e3235d5acc5c22338d3fc9d40a5cd26.jpg","w":693,"h":586,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/2\/e\/2e3235d5acc5c22338d3fc9d40a5cd26"}610759

APPEND:
Woah, I actually read the article linked to on van Rossum's Twitter. This wonderful quote just about sums it up:

Quote:

Get in the habit of treating your maleness as an unearned privilege that you have to actively work to cede rather than femaleness being an unearned disadvantage that women have to work to overcome.

Quote:

torhu said:

I already answered that, let's not go round in circles

Where?

My third post from the top.

Aaron Bolyard

Wow, you didn't even read the article before posting this thread?

torhu

Nope, the tweet was meant as an example of a typical feminist statement that the guy has made.

Gideon Weems
torhu said:

Does he? So what he is up to then?

Getting girls to make him drinks.

Chris Katko

He SERIOUSLY did a talk... on trolls? So instead of not giving trolls your time... he gives them an HOUR LONG TALK?!

torhu

Yeah, but to be fair I suppose it's meant to be entertaining more than serious. Maybe he's be a bit too eager to explain away the usual Python weaknesses, though. Where there is troll, there is fire. Maybe ;D

amarillion

Why do you care so much?

Seriously, how does this affect you?

torhu

Should I only care if it affects me personally? It's not unlikely that I will end up being affected by this same ideology. It's an ideology and a false narrative that exists in many places. It seems to be spreading where I live.

I argue against bad ideas because we have to do that. And people have to know. And this is relevant to the programming community.

Elias

I fail to see what this has to do with Python. I think you should have named the thread "I dislike some random guy's opinion on some random subject OMG!11111".

amarillion
torhu said:

Should I only care if it affects me personally?

If it affected you personally, I'd understand better why you cared.
I think you're getting all hot and bothered over nothing.

Bruce Perry

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ;D

Elias:
- feminist writes a stupid blog containing "When a woman tells you something is sexist, believe her"
- creator of Python makes a tweet making fun of it
- SJWs come out in force and boycott Python

This is good news. Now we can replace Python with something statically typed. I would say 'strongly' typed but tdammers told me off on IRC for using that term since it's gendered and therefore anti-feminist. 8-)

torhu
Elias said:

I fail to see what this has to do with Python. I think you should have named the thread "I dislike some random guy's opinion on some random subject OMG!11111".

Some random guy? Maybe if you couldn't care less about Python, but I think Python is great :P

Aaron Bolyard

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I think you've got it a bit backwards. I don't think van Rossum was making fun of the article--rather, he seemed supportive by spreading the message, considering he is a feminist--but I mean, 140 characters (a quote + article link) isn't much to derive any context. And anti-SJW types are upset (like torhu), as far as I can tell.

Elias

>:(

I'm too ignorant (or too old?) to understand SJWs and/or feminism I think, I just don't want my beloved Python dragged into it in any way...

torhu

@Aaron Bolyard: A good starting place for the context is http://bfy.tw/9WZd

Elias said:

I just don't want my beloved Python dragged into it in any way...

My feelings exactly.

Chris Katko

I think a language developer should have the attitude of an old wise sage. Only opening his mouth when he has something profound to say.

He's representing the attitudes of the language and the people who decide how it functions. Politics should not be apart of that equation.

Even if he thought that way, he should have delegated the opinion to someone under the title of "community representative" or something like that. So any backlash could be attributed to the representative and not the figurehead of the language.

I've never noticed that this was a "feature" until Python didn't have it--the feature of having a stoic leader. You look at C/C++/D/etc, you never have to justify a random tweet to your team or boss. Instead of being a blank slate --like a research paper to be treated on its logical validity--you're now looking at the human behind-the-scenes.

And I'm not saying this because he's talking about feminism. I'm saying, in general, he shouldn't be talking about any kind of stuff like that. I don't care about his opinions on foreign policy, religion, on vegan diets, or on the best deodorant. He should stick to his expert niche.

Regardless of a perfect world, the human world doesn't like treating people as "experts on some stuff, and average on others." The second he gives an average opinion, using his authority as an expert, he has diluted his expert authority.

Perhaps I'm thinking too far into it. Perhaps I'm wrong. I welcome any input as this is kind a stream-of-consciousness of a new revelation.

One thing, I personally struggle with, is how, once I become successful, I will deal with my community. Will I have to shut off all personal tweets? Will I have to stick to anonymous communication for my personal life? I do not want to alienate people from my game for any reason EXCEPT THE GAME. That is, someone loves the game (like here, we love Python), and then the leader says something you disagree with and even if you still like the product... there's a "chink in the armor" in your mind.

Like when you find out a great movie you love, was made by a guy that murdered his wife, or a pedophile. Can you still enjoy the movie? And even if so, will you ever KNOW you enjoy it the same as had you never heard something that broke the fantasy? Will the idea pop into your head every time you watch it?

I'm such an expressive person, naturally. And I can be very passionate in my arguments. I would feel sad if I have to mute myself for the sake of the game community (although I guess anon accounts are still a workable solution). Having to decide between one "love" and another.

On the otherhand, I'm sure my grave is already dug on social media. So anyone who wants to Google my butt can easily find something they disagree with--it would be impossible to "purge" my signature at this point. Perhaps as long as a "restrain" myself on the official game forums, people will be able to accept the distinction between work and personal life. (And to bring it RIGHT BACK to topical, SJW surely don't like that idea with the #Opalgate fiasco on github starting from a tweet from a personal twitter account.)

torhu

Know your own limits, tread carefully in areas where your knowledge is limited, listen to what smart people with knowledge of the subject say. Keep your mouth shut if in doubt, or just ask questions instead of stating opinions. Etc.

van Rossum is perhaps doing a good job in the context of language development, dealing with complex social issues is another matter. He's a hardcore geek, after all. Just look at his 2016 Pycon talk. Feminists are good at using emotional manipulation, and they have a wealth of propaganda behind their talking points. It's a completely different scenario than technical discussions on the Python mailing list.

bamccaig

This comes as no surprise. The Python community is heavily entangled with SJW's. They've gone "full retard" on the codes of conduct and stuff. I imagine it leaves many Python devs walking on egg shells. I wonder how many female Python programmers there are, and how many non-programmers are making noise in the community for special treatment where they aren't even going to be.

The saddest part about this article is probably that it's mysogynistic itself: it implies that "femaleness" is a weakness, and "maleness" is a strength. That's an incredibly toxic message to be sending to girls and women. That is the Feminist message. Women need to be more like men, according to Feminists. They view femininity as a flaw. It's no surprise that most hardcore feminists are lesbians and bisexuals (or men).

Feminism is not about equality of the sexes anymore. If it was it would disband because they have it. Feminism is a political force for power and money. "Activism" AKA bitching and moaning about made up lies is their day job. It is actually harmful to most girls and women, and strongly opposes their choices. Feminists are destructive, not constructive. They're like the children that destroy other children's toys or creations because they don't have them.

The biggest problem with anybody, let alone the BDFL of a software project, supporting these people is that they're supporting bad ideas and poisoning the thoughts and minds of our world and industry. Probably the biggest harm that Feminists are doing to our world right now is crippling free thought, speech, and research on college and university campuses. We know it's a bad idea to suppress free thought. Why are we allowing our colleges and universities to become toxic towards the truth? Why are we treating college and university students like kindergarteners?

If you don't consider this harmful then you're an idiot. Odds are, Guido supports the SJWs because he thinks he's doing a good thing. Being talented or smart in some fields doesn't mean you're smart in all of them. Case in point: many computer engineers still believe in religions and deities. You can be smart and still be an idiot. In general, our brains are incredibly fallible. We've gotten this far, but perhaps we've piqued and are destined to destroy ourselves. That certainly seems to be the case.

Append:

I think a language developer should have the attitude of an old wise sage. Only opening his mouth when he has something profound to say.

He's representing the attitudes of the language and the people who decide how it functions. Politics should not be apart of that equation.

Well said.

Polybios

Without social media, we would still regard him as a professional. ::)

torhu

Yeah, but I think it's good to know what people's opinions are in cases where they are relevant. And I think it is in this case.

Polybios

IMHO, it's highly detrimental to mix politics into everything in the long run. Professionals just shouldn't care.

torhu

I think it would be appropriate to say something if the Python community (whatever that means) actually had some kind of "sexism problem".

LennyLen
torhu said:

Yeah, but I think it's good to know what people's opinions are in cases where they are relevant. And I think it is in this case.

I can see how his opinions on programming and language design would be relevant, but not his opinions on feminism.

torhu

Well, he is sort of the community leader. Now I'm talking about actual sexist behavior, not feminism.

Bruce Perry

I think you've got it a bit backwards.

Probably :) You're right that that single tweet isn't clear.

From what I've read - at first sight, what he's doing to support women who are interested in Python sounds quite good. Perhaps it could be honed a little, but overall, why not? It's a pretty positive message.

On the other hand, this line about sexism is negative. Most people don't have sexism on their minds, don't want to be sexist, and will acknowledge it, apologise and fix it if they are rightly called out. This line not only draws attention to a very negative phenomenon that people don't want to think about, it is also loaded with the accusation that people are sexist, and aren't acknowledging it and fixing it, along with a helping of "what women say goes". None of this has anything to do with Python, the real reason people are interested in this celebrity.

So - it's a pretty stupid tweet, and one that will work against his case. Instead of attracting and supporting the right women (genuine Python users) and building a strong community without leaving the men out in the cold, he will be attracting the wrong women (the gender-focused, anti-men kind) and pushing away his male audience.

Realistically though - I don't think this affects Python's future success at all. Either it's useful or it's not, regardless of who's in the community and who goes to the conferences. And in fairness to the guy, when I looked through his recent tweets, everything looked language-focused. He probably made a one-off mistake and now regrets it.

[EDIT]

Perhaps as long as a "restrain" myself on the official game forums, people will be able to accept the distinction between work and personal life.

Yes, a lot of people will. You'll need to remind yourself of that constantly though, because the noisiest people will be the ones who won't.

bamccaig said:

Why are we allowing our colleges and universities to become toxic towards the truth?

We're actually not. Those colleges and universities are losing funding and future enrolments big-time. Don't forget that the US just elected Trump (even if it was a protest vote). You're in better company than you think.

torhu

It definitely wasn't a one-off mistake, as Google would tell you :P

Bruce Perry

Oh dear. Rather than get involved any more, I think I'll take your word for it.

But I can assure you that we use Python successfully here without thinking about any of this, and that can always be true no matter what's going on in the community.

P.S. Chris and bambams, don't miss my edit above :)

bamccaig

We're actually not. Those colleges and universities are losing funding and future enrolments big-time. Don't forget that the US just elected Trump. You're in better company than you think.

How do you figure? The phenomenon seems to be spreading. Their numbers aren't necessarily down. Maybe it looks that way because the majority of students are now women and it seems the majority of them are majoring in gender studies. :D

Bruce Perry

Perhaps. But the worse it gets, the more people will recognise the need for an alternative, and work to create that alternative. It's already started balancing itself out (see Mizzou enrolment and funding drops), and it'll continue to do so. :)

bamccaig

The Mizzou thing appears to be in response to racial protests. I think it's fair to say that women are a far more powerful "minority group" than black people. They're virtually untouchable. You can't even question women in our society. You can question black people.

Specter Phoenix
Polybios said:

IMHO, it's highly detrimental to mix politics into everything in the long run. Professionals just shouldn't care.

That is impossible to do because it is at the point where they don't allow neutrals anymore. If you are neutral, then you are "part of the problem".

Perhaps as long as a "restrain" myself on the official game forums, people will be able to accept the distinction between work and personal life.

Rational people can accept the distinction. Politically charged groups and the radically unstable minded people that make them up cannot. I've seen many groups get people fired because of their personal views.

LennyLen
torhu said:

Well, he is sort of the community leader.

Ah, there's the thing I guess - that's just not something that is important to me. I only care about languages themselves, not the people involved with them. I'm not really a people person.

Aaron Bolyard

ITT: Fight feminism because it's oppressing men. Kind of like you'd believe how Christians are being oppressed in America, if you listen to Fox News...

(addendum: This doesn't apply to everyone.)

Polybios

That is impossible to do because it is at the point where they don't allow neutrals anymore. If you are neutral, then you are "part of the problem".

All that SJW stuff is mostly about talking "correctly", isn't it? That reminds me of former Communist Eastern Europe a bit: "Comrade, we haven't heard a clear affirmation of the principles of Marxism-Leninism from you... Don't you agree with the latest resolutions of the central committee?"

Bruce Perry
bamccaig said:

You can't even question women in our society.

Not my experience. ;)

Honestly, my experience is I've known one or two women who even remotely resemble the radical feminist stereotypes or whatever you want to call them, and everyone else I know can see it and these women have no power at all. It's really not so bad. And in places where it is bad, it gets noticed and dealt with.

torhu

Here in Norway, the radical feminists have political power. And they certainly do in the US. But this was not about political power per se.

Aaron Bolyard
torhu said:

And they certainly do in the US.

I don't know if you've been paying attention but the 'family values' (e.g., ban abortion, conservative social values, Trump "Grab 'em by the Pussy" apologists) Republican party is in power in the legislature and executive branches. They also control most states legislatures and other local governments.

The Democrats are powerless, and I don't see how an SJW would be anything other than Democrat.

torhu

Politics is complicated. Feminists are mostly concerned with gender issues, and nowadays also race issues. There's a website you can look at that deals with US gender issues. I'm not familiar with it, no idea how good of a source it is or not. Here in Norway "gender equality" in politics nowadays mostly means special treatment of women.

Aaron Bolyard

Ok, but how are radical feminists in power?

You side-stepped.

Also that website is so biased it's not funny. Iran is not gynocentric. Whitewashing 101.

torhu

Radical feminists are not "in power". Politics is still complicated, like it was ten minutes ago. And I'll bet that website is way less biased than most feminist ones. You have to look past their click-baitey titles and that. And I have no idea why you are bringing Iran into this.

Bruce Perry

Power doesn't have to come down the chain from Trump, given that we live in a society which permits a lot of free will. The idea of the term "social justice" is the idea of using social tricks - persuasion, manipulation, badmouthing, etc. - to get justice for a perceived wrongdoing. An example might be getting someone fired because they tweeted something controversial. What you're doing is taking advantage of the fact that their employer might want to distance themselves from the gossip that will ensue. None of that needs the government's participation to happen, but it is a form of power.

Aaron Bolyard

And if you're fired for voicing your opinions, it's somehow not the employers fault?

Whether you're a radical feminist or a mens right activist, you're blind to the class struggle that only has one benefactor: the rich and powerful. The 1% of 1%.

Keep it up. You're getting nowhere while the bourgeoisie leech the remainder of your wealth. :)

torhu said:

And I have no idea why you are bringing Iran into this.

https://www.avoiceformen.com/gynocentrism/the-myth-of-patriarchal-oppression-in-iran/

It was on the front page when I visited. The article is crap. Here's an analogy: I write an article about how gender dysphoria is accepted in Iran. Surgery is provided by the state at nearly no cost to the patient. But I leave out that Iran is staunchly anti-homosexual; gays and lesbians are forced to undertake reassignment surgery; and afterwards, they are social outcasts. Same topic, two different spins. That's this website in a nutshell: twisting the truth.

torhu

Aaron Bolyard, do you think that men an women should have equal rights and opportunities?

Aaron Bolyard
torhu said:

Aaron Bolyard, do you think that men an women should have equal rights and opportunities?

I'm a feminist. What do you think?

torhu

At least you came clean. Fuck you, bigot.

Aaron Bolyard

Gladly. 8-) I'm also a socialist, atheist, non-gender-conforming bisexual. Got any more insults for me now?

If I think of more labels I use for myself I'll let you know!

torhu

You do know that labels have meanings, right?

Aaron Bolyard

Yes.

Women and men should be equal. Hence, I'm a feminist.

Workers should own the means of production. Capitalism is a plight on the well being of society. Hence, I'm socialist.

There is no god or gods. Hence, I'm an atheist.

I don't believe in gender roles and similarly don't follow gender roles. Hence, I'm non-gender-conforming.

I'm sexually and romantically attracted to men and women. Hence, I'm bisexual.

Bruce Perry

All right torhu, what's your go-to label?

Chortle chortle 8-)

Aaron, I didn't really follow your question. It's probably an irrelevant detail though - my point was just to give some kind of example of how power can exist in some different ways.

edit - also, as usual, don't forget to agree with us on meanings. Feminism can't mean egalitarianism unless you agree that women are disadvantaged, which is clearly disputed. You can't have a productive conversation unless you meet people in the middle, even if you believe their position is wrong. A bit upset I have to repeat this.

edit 2 - inclined to agree about capitalism, except of course noting that we haven't worked out how to achieve such efficient productivity without it. Capitalism isn't fair but it is productive.

Posting from my phone is an interesting experience :)

Aaron Bolyard

I'm not trying to have a productive conversation with torhu. He's a troll.

Meeting in the middle would be argument to moderation. That is a fallacy.

Feminism can't mean egalitarianism unless you agree that women are disadvantaged, which is clearly disputed.

I believe women are disadvantaged. This does not preclude me from also believing men face disadvantages.

Various members of this site only think men are disadvantaged in modern society. They are wrong. The radical feminist they cite believe only women are disadvantaged. They are wrong.

But to refer to the 'meet in the middle idea:' the issue resolves around the class struggle (e.g., wealth inequality), not men/women being more/less disadvantaged than the other. The class struggle is not 'in the middle'; it is completely outside the scope of ideas these two sides are debating. Hence they're both wrong.

Chris Katko

Ok, but how are radical feminists in power?

GOOD. GOD. How can you say that with a straight face? Have you ever entered a college campus?

Name ONE other political group that gets their own college on every college campus? (Women's Studies == Feminist Studies)

Where's the PETA Studies? Where's the Reagonomics Studies? Where's the AGILE Development Studies?

And if you saw someone with a degree in "Ethical Treatment of Animals" would you take their degree, and opinions seriously?

This is straight up hilarious. :P After hearing that, I honestly can't take anything you say seriously. You might as well be telling me (against all scientific evidence) the world is only 4,00 years old. You're a statistics-denier.

I believe women are disadvantaged. This does not preclude me from also believing men face disadvantages.

Notice how one is an absolute statement and the other is a relative statement. Men are only disadvantaged based on a conditional criteria. Their penis of death allows them to be better then everyone else except in certain situations.

torhu

I don't have any labels.

Women and men should be equal. Hence, I'm a feminist.

Well, most feminist activists don't agree with you on that. You might want to reconsider, just saying.

Quote:

Workers should own the means of production. Capitalism is a plight on the well being of society. Hence, I'm socialist.

Yes, that always works out well, doesn't it?

Quote:

There is no god or gods. Hence, I'm an atheist.

Hard to argue with that one.

Quote:

I don't believe in gender roles and similarly don't follow gender roles. Hence, I'm non-gender-conforming.

Gender roles in culture are based on biological gender differences. They are not straighjackets, just facts. Also, I think you are trolling.

Quote:

I'm sexually and romantically attracted to men and women. Hence, I'm bisexual.

Congrats, that sounds exciting.

I believe women are disadvantaged.

By whom? The god that you don't believe in?

Bruce Perry

Yeah, fair point (trollage). ;)

My other half once said something insightful: feminism is something that could provide strength at times when she was single, but she's happy with me and she doesn't need it any more. (She does have a good career.) This was said in the context of how it must apply for others and why feminism is still attractive in a world where we are debatably pretty equitable by now.

I edited again btw.

[edit] torhu - it was a programming joke ;) goto label;

Aaron Bolyard

Have you ever entered a college campus?

How are college students powerful?

Quote:

You're a statistics-denier.

What statistics?

Quote:

Notice how one is an absolute statement and the other is a relative statement. Men are only disadvantaged based on a conditional criteria. Their penis of death allows them to be better then everyone else except in certain situations.

Wow, you're insane. Then again, you're the one who doesn't let the media have 'write access' to your brain as if you're special.

Bruce Perry

This meet in the middle thing applies both ways ;) Aaron is clearly now saying that men and women are both disadvantaged compared to the richest 1% (i.e. those who could afford the operation).

torhu

[edit] torhu - it was a programming joke ;) goto label;

Whoops, just a bit tired of this discussion ;D

How are college students powerful?

Right. It's not just them, they often have the support of the administration where they study, and often mainstream media support. And they are going to run the society in the future. When and how are they going to be ready for that? Yes, they behave like stupid kids. But feminism gets a free pass a lot of places. Why would you complain about the religious right's intrusion into people's lives and not about what feminists do? They are both harming people.

bamccaig

On the grand scheme of things college students are incredibly powerful. For one thing, they're the CEOs and business owners and engineers of the future. For another, typically they are from relatively wealthy or at least middle class families. On the grand scheme of things, they're pretty high up there on the social class ranking. Additionally, knowledge is power. And lastly, college is one of the best times to explore new ideas and break boundaries and revolutionize the world. Insert: Well they also are likely to be the parents of tomorrow if they aren't already the parents of today. They're going to be shaping the minds of the next generation.

Aaron isn't really meeting in the middle because he's contradicting himself. He says that he admits that men have "disadvantages", but claims that women are disadvantaged. What's more, Feminists clearly do not acknowledge any disadvantages for men. If he truly believed that men had disadvantages then he wouldn't subscribe to Feminism. He would just call himself an egalitarian or something else ungendered. He also admits to intentionally trolling simply because he disagrees with people. That has more or less been his track record in my experience. He finds himself on the easy, but wrong side more often than not and doesn't like to provide reasonable arguments.

While certainly the top 1% are the most advantaged class of people on the planet, I don't think it's very useful to point this out in a debate regarding Feminism because it is completely off-topic. If you're suggesting that Feminism should be disbanded to focus on the greatest threat to our liberty and freedom and wellbeing then I'd say great, stop calling yourself a Feminist then and focus on what matters more! But that's pretty obviously not what his argument is because he's religious about being a Feminist. I assume he's essentially trolling and trying to derail the discussion further.

On a side note, it's a little bit too conspiracy theorist for my liking, but I do recall a video of some random guy that claims to be in contact with the Illuminati or something and claims that "the powers that be" (or a particular "figurehead" of the top 1%) confided in him that Feminism was very much funded/supported by the top 1%. The alleged reasoning being that it makes the entire population easier to control and it potentially doubles the workforce. While the conspiracy theories are a bit much to take in, I think it's perfectly logical for the top 1% to support Feminism for just those reasons. It makes sense to me anyway.

Mainly I don't believe that it's useful to make claims like "if classification X says something then you should believe it". That's essentially saying, "shut your brain off." NO, turn your brain on, and everybody crank up the resolution.

My other half once said something insightful: feminism is something that could provide strength at times when she was single, but she's happy with me and she doesn't need it any more. (She does have a good career.) This was said in the context of how it must apply for others and why feminism is still attractive in a world where we are debatably pretty equitable by now.

I find this very interesting and would like you to expand on what you think it means. Anybody else is encouraged to give their take on it too.

Bruce Perry
bamccaig said:

they're the CEOs and business owners and engineers of the future

The ones who actually have skills, yes. No one wants a CEO who will alienate all the customers, or an employee who will alienate all the other employees. As I said, it's not as bad as you think it is.

Quote:

completely off-topic

Actually no. For many feminists, I bet the real problem is that a lot of people are disadvantaged and they just only looked at the women. Acknowledging that men have problems too is a pretty meaningful concession, even if the wording is still coloured in favour of women's needs.

Quote:

I find this very interesting and would like you to expand on what you think it means.

What is there to expand on?

torhu

I don't think many of those people are smart or dedicated enough to be the CEOs, business owners, or engineers of the future, but they could well be the journalists, media people, and some of the voters of the future.

bamccaig

I don't think you understand. Colleges are becoming toxic to the truth. Scientific studies and research are being stifled because it doesn't align with the Feminist narrative. Obviously the gender studies students are unlikely to do anything useful for society, but they are not the only ones that this affects. It affects every student. It affects every discipline and every field, and it affects the technical and scientific fields the most because those are the ones that rely on truth to expand and grow. If you can't even ask questions you can never escape from the trap of bad ideas.

torhu

Yes, but this doesn't affact *all* of academia. It affects some campuses more than others, it affects the low-value departments more than the other, etc.

bamccaig

I can't find the specific material I would like to, but as I recall I have read or watched alleged scientists explaining that scientific research for topics that aligns with Feminism is much more likely to be funded than research that doesn't. This is the closest I could find at the moment:

video

In short, there is a political shift in how the funding is being handed out. Instead of basing it purely on the potential for scientific discovery, they're trying to predict what will have potential to bring products to market and effectively benefit industry. That's not what science is. It's not hard to see how Feminism would have a hand in these decisions considering its political might.

Append:

This seems kind of related too:

video

amarillion

What you are saying is just an ad hominem fallacy. The choice of language should depend on technical merits, not on the opinions of the creator.

You are holding language creators to high standards of impartiality and morality, standards normally reserved for politicians. But language creators don't control armies or taxes or national budgets. Don't you think there is a difference?

Also, what happened to freedom of speech? Isn't van Rossem just entitled to his own opinion?

torhu

Are you talking to me? It's not an ad hominem, that would be going after the man instead of the ball. This is relevant to the Python community, not the language per se. But it also impacts my desire to use and promote the language. Mostly, I was disappointed, because I have always thought highly of van Rossum. Perhaps too highly, which I am now starting to see.

If you like to talk in terms of logical fallacies: nice strawmen you got there :-*

bamccaig

Apparently relevant, although I hope this a privately agreed upon grouping of idiots instead of a university endorsed grouping or class:

video

Append:

There's a fun exercise. What would a more Feminist Python look like? That is, if Feminist extremists got their say about what is sexist about the actual language or standard library, what things would they change and how? In other words, let's put our troll hats on and think about what Python 4 will be.

Specter Phoenix
Polybios said:

All that SJW stuff is mostly about talking "correctly", isn't it? That reminds me of former Communist Eastern Europe a bit: "Comrade, we haven't heard a clear affirmation of the principles of Marxism-Leninism from you... Don't you agree with the latest resolutions of the central committee?"

The ones I get to have fun talking down to me regularly tell me (and mind you I've never published any of my game experiments), but because I say I'm a hobbyist game developer, I get the pleasure of being told:

Quote:

If your games have straight white male protags with no POC or queer/trans characters you are a part of the systematic oppression holding them back. You should educate yourself, realize your privilege, and be more considerate when making games.

They try to shame AAA, but only indies have caved to their shaming tactics because most indies fear they will ruin their game. I don't feel shame, rather I laugh myself to tears every time I open the text file that I saved that quote in. Honestly that quote is what keeps me going with programming and game dev knowing if I ever decide to publish the warped crap in my mind that their shaming will change to either anger or disgust.

Bruce Perry

You know what? If an indie game developer with a good game were to strike that balance of managing to irk some SJWs while not being a blatant mickey-take, then the SJW police would actually serve as a nice bit of marketing. I haven't noticed that indies are caving to shaming tactics and can't quite imagine it really happening - do you have some examples? (Unless you just mean games that are no good anyway?)

bamccaig said:

What would a more Feminist Python look like?

Feminist Python exists. It's called Prolog. You don't tell it what to do - you give it all the information and allow it to figure the answer out in its own way while reaching many, many inaccurate conclusions first. ;)

Oh sorry, you wanted a serious answer?

torhu

This indy game is blatantly mocking SJW's, third wave feminists and their ideology:
Feminazi: The Triggering

Feminist Python exists. It's called Prolog. You don't tell it what to do - you give it all the information and allow it to figure the answer out in its own way while reaching many, many inaccurate conclusions first. ;)

;D

bamccaig said:

There's a fun exercise. What would a more Feminist Python look like? That is, if Feminist extremists got their say about what is sexist about the actual language or standard library, what things would they change and how? In other words, let's put our troll hats on and think about what Python 4 will be.

For starters you can't have a phallic name like Python, that obviously has to go. And the number 4 is offensive to the Japanese, it's believed to bring bad luck.

Bruce Perry

Yeah, because 4 四 and death 死 can both be pronounced 'she', which is why that's a feminist argument? ;)

Speaking of which, a while ago I googled whether social justice and feminism and stuff as we know it happens in Japan. The impression I got was it didn't really. I don't feel like googling it again right now though. Thoughts?

torhu

Yeah, because 4 四 and death 死 can both be pronounced 'she', which is why that's a feminist argument? ;)

I'm assuming that means you understood my point ;)

Quote:

Speaking of which, a while ago I googled whether social justice and feminism and stuff as we know it happens in Japan. The impression I got was it didn't really. I don't feel like googling it again right now though. Thoughts?

It seems to be a western phenomena, which might be key to understanding it, and perhaps defeating it.

bamccaig

Oh sorry, you wanted a serious answer?

Not necessarily. That one suits me just fine! :D

Greenlight voted and kickstarter pledged! :D

torhu said:

It seems to be a western phenomena, which might be key to understanding it, and perhaps defeating it.

Perhaps only in the Western world do women have so much free time on their hands? I wish the men could say the same!

Chris Katko

I love that Aaron conveniently misread my comment to solely be about students. As if college professors don't have significant respect and influence over their student bodies. As if the entire college of women's studies doesn't exist. Nah, brush over facts that endanger your ego.

And even going on "just students", they clearly have power because they get plenty of speakers and comedians banned from campus. Well... until their parents see their actions and pull them from the school like they did with Mizzou. ;D

Wow, you're insane. Then again, you're the one who doesn't let the media have 'write access' to your brain as if you're special.

Don't you love how far-left liberals can't just be liberal without ALSO feeling smug about it?

They seem to be the only ones these days who can't function around anyone except other liberals. Even conservatives have gotten better about hanging around gays, and other "hot button" things for them.

They just CAN'T accept that people think differently (they have unique experiences that mold their worldview?! NO. ONLY OURS IS REAL.) There is no discussion. There is only right and wrong. Good and evil.

Aaron, if I had any respect for you before (which I did), it's certainly gone now.

Specter Phoenix

I haven't noticed that indies are caving to shaming tactics and can't quite imagine it really happening - do you have some examples? (Unless you just mean games that are no good anyway?)

There was one near the end of 2014 and mid 2015, but I'm having trouble finding them. I'm asking around to see if anyone can remember their names. I know Elysian Shadows had a blog entry where they had started self-censoring because they started to subconsciously worrying about if their game would offend people instead of just focusing on it being fun.

Games that are no good anyway would be like Tale of Tales (think that is the name) where the developers (Sunset) shut down. They catered to SJWs and apparently the game didn't get played much and the SJW led PR/Marketing group they had (led by Leigh Alexander I think it was) didn't even bother trying to promote the game.

Speaking of which, a while ago I googled whether social justice and feminism and stuff as we know it happens in Japan. The impression I got was it didn't really. I don't feel like googling it again right now though. Thoughts?

Nope, the UN even tried to tell Japan to stop making games that sexualized women or had abuse toward fictional women. A Japanese spokeswoman basically told them that the UN needed to use their resources to worry about real women instead of fictionalized women.

Let's not forget that the UN named Wonder Woman honorary ambassador for women (yep, a fictional woman that embodies empowerment), but quickly removed her because: the comic book character is "not culturally encompassing or sensitive" and was an inappropriate choice at a time "when the headline news in United States and the world is the objectification of women and girls."

They will never be happy because they will always have the perception that something is wrong and always fight. Look at feminism:

  • Wanted the right to vote; got it.

  • Wanted equal pay; got it via the Equal Pay Act

  • Even though economists have debunked the gender pay gap since 90s, still fighting to end it because they refuse to believe it isn't real.

  • Even though a woman can go for any job she wants, they perceive male dominated fields as sexist. (Note: You see them demanding more women in tech, but not more men in nursing or more women in oil rigs, mining, logging, and the other extremely dangerous jobs, but they are about equality [never mind it being a one sided equation]).

My perception is that I'm not equal because I'm fat and have a special needs family. I think Matthew should give me admin permissions, custom avatars, themes, and host all my experiments right this second. I think everyone should dumb down their knowledge of programming and game development to make me look better. Everyone should praise me as the next <insert icon developer here> without me having to show my abilities. I'm not wanting me to be treated superior to everyone here, this is just my call for equality for lard asses with special circumstances.

Chris Katko

I'm straight up disabled. But you don't see me shoehorning it into conversations as if it somehow magically helps me win a debate, or that it somehow invalidates other people's criticism for "not" being disabled.

But then again, I don't see disability as some flag of pride, to rally around. It's just one thing about me. I don't derive my entire identity from it, so I don't feel personally attacked when people discuss disabilities, or the fact that plenty of people with disability parking permits are actually just jerks. I don't turn into an emotional mess because there's more to me than a checklist of victim labels.

Specter Phoenix

All I did was modify feminist arguments about tech and oriented them for this site and added in a few personal details. Since I'm not a person of color or female I had to go with the two things in my favor that feminists will say you are terrible if you make any criticism toward me about them. Can't tell me to lose weight because it is fat shaming and can't make any off color remarks about my family or you are terrible too.

Let's change my argument:

My perception is that I'm not equal because I'm fat and have a special needs family. I think Matthew should give me admin permissions, custom avatars, themes, and host all my experiments right this second. I think everyone should dumb down their knowledge of programming and game development to make me look better. Everyone should praise me as the next <insert icon developer here> without me having to show my abilities. I'm not wanting me to be treated superior to everyone here, this is just my call for equality for lard asses with special circumstances.

Back to ones I see for feminist groups:

Quote:

I'm not equal because I'm a female person of color and face hardships because of it. Women need better representation in tech, gaming, and more laws to protect them from harsh criticism, and hate speech; they shouldn't be considered free speech. Women have issues with the tech interviews so they should be made simpler to get more women into tech fields, but men don't need the interview simplified. We should implement quotas and force more women into tech; meritocracy should be ignored because it just leads to sexism. Feminism is about equality.

Chris Katko

To be clear, I'm not criticizing you in this thread. You're not shoehorning in your weight into discussions as if it wins an argument (about something other than a weight-related topic).

Likewise, I only mention my disability when it's applicable. (Welfare, disability, people whining about their victimhood, etc.) I don't want pity. Pity doesn't pay my bills. Victimhood doesn't pay my bills.

Bruce Perry

Aaron, if I had any respect for you before (which I did), it's certainly gone now.

{"name":"boy-that-escalated-quickly.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/0\/2\/023660d62c033f63c1e7720a563f01f1.jpg","w":550,"h":280,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/0\/2\/023660d62c033f63c1e7720a563f01f1"}boy-that-escalated-quickly.jpg

Seriously? As far as you two are concerned, there are more important things than this crazy YouTube feminism soap opera. Don't write off the entire person for such a stupid reason.

raynebc

It's been more of a pattern with him.

Bruce Perry

That's not the point. Spending your life trying to discredit other people (even if they're radical feminists) isn't exactly constructive, is it? Likewise, judging an entire person only on their political views isn't constructive. ;)

raynebc

When peoples' online personas exhibit hostility to those with opposing viewpoints, it reveals a fair amount about their character.

Polybios

Now you seem to judge him on how he judges others. Wasn't the whole thread about that?

Specter Phoenix

With the political climate, gaining a person's respect feels like a pointless endeavor because too many people are so sensitive that they lose respect for people solely based on their difference in views.

I also see a lot of "No True Scotsman" fallacy going around as I've seen people direct others to "learn about feminism" by going to feminism.org and dismissing Youtube feminists and the volatile feminists (like the ones that disrupt events where men are gathered to discuss men's health) as not real feminists. I notice this is also the same people who put down BLM, GamerGate, Alt-Right, et. al. based on the volatile members and turn round expecting everyone to ignored the volatile feminists and not label feminism bad based on them.

Edgar Reynaldo

There are nutjobs in every realm. Judging a group solely on the basis of it's crazies takes away any merit the group had on its own. There are radical Muslim terrorists. Does that make all Muslims bad? There are white supremacists. Does that make all whites bad? There are racial gangs. Does that make all Blacks / Latinos bad? There are misogynistic women haters. Does that make all men bad? I think you see my point.

The way it seems to me is that one side here believes all feminism is bad because of a bunch of zealots and wackos who are more prominent in the media. You guys seem willing to dismiss all feminism as without merit because of a few crazies who take it to the extreme.

I don't really know what the other side stands for, because basically the only one here defending feminism is Aaron, thus he takes all the blame for all of your resentment towards feminism.

Is this all we have left to discuss here anymore? allegro.cc is becoming quite the lame duck. Don't any of you program anymore? Or do you just like to hang out at allegro.cc and bicker about pointless drivel? :-/

</2c>

torhu

The issue with feminism is not the "the crazies". It's the ideology and the assumptions, how widespread it is, where it's accepted, that it seems to be spreading, etc. The crazies just take the basic ideology and the dogma and add to that.

One of the basic ideas is that gender disparity is proof of sexism. This is the basis of a lot of feminist activism in the West today, including van Rossum's. It's simply anti-scientific, which is why they want to shame people into silence instead of arguing their point. It works like religion in that regard and several others.

There are several other similar points, but I don't want to repeat myself.

Edgar Reynaldo

If there are no disparities then why does feminism exist?

torhu

What do you mean? They think that correlation equals causation, because they are ignoring other options and factors.

Edgar Reynaldo

So blacks are predominantly poor because they are inferior? That's the reasoning you're using. Likewise, women are justifiably less equitably rewarded than men are because they are physically weaker and therefore choose lesser work? That's what I hear when I read what you have to say.

torhu

What the hell you talking about? Are you trolling now?

Edgar Reynaldo

Basically you're saying there is no justification for feminism because the differences between men and women are strictly biological and therefore any disparity is justified.

Not trolling. :P

torhu

Men and women are different. If you ignore that, you can make anything look like an injustice. Which is what much feminist ideology and propaganda is about. The radical feminists from 40 years ago, which mostly define the mainstream feminism of today, are fighting a "gender war", basically a power struggle. And they lie to get other people onboard with the "fight for gender equality". It's pretty standard stuff, it's done by other groups that have a political agenda too.

The social psychologist Jonathan Haidt explains it perfectly:

video

bamccaig

Likewise, women are justifiably less equitably rewarded than men are because they are physically weaker and therefore choose lesser work?

FTFY. My finacee is an early childhood educator (i.e., daycare worker). Her friends are also daycare workers, teachers, or care workers (i.e., aiding elderly people living at home that require assistance). Most of these jobs are not very highly paid. These women did not choose these jobs because they pay excellent. They chose these jobs because they pay better than minimum wage and were something they could see themselves doing. A much better career choice would have been nursing, but that requires a lot more studying, hard factual science, and more gruesome tasks.

The men in our circles are mostly industrial laborers or "technologists". Either harder work, or more technical, and more mechanical/machine based than people based. This is not a coincidence. In general, men and women are naturally drawn to different things. In fact, I've read of studies showing that the more free a nation is to pursue any career choices you want the more gendered the nation becomes: women end up staying home or taking low paying part-time jobs in predominantly female fields like child care and retail, and men continue to choose machine-based, technical work. You mainly see women breaking into STEM fields in nations where they're less free to choose whatever they want (i.e., East Asia).

We reject Feminism because we recognize that it's in conflict with reality, and acknowledge the harmful effects that it is having on society. It's really quite simple if you open your mind to the possibility that all ideas are open to scrutiny.

Specter Phoenix

There are nutjobs in every realm. Judging a group solely on the basis of it's crazies takes away any merit the group had on its own. There are radical Muslim terrorists. Does that make all Muslims bad? There are white supremacists. Does that make all whites bad? There are racial gangs. Does that make all Blacks / Latinos bad? There are misogynistic women haters. Does that make all men bad?

Depending on the media you listen to, the answer is yes across the board. After all, according to different media sites, even allegedly game oriented sites claim the game industry hates women and gamers are full of misogynists. According to MTV white straight males are to blame for everything.

So blacks are predominantly poor because they are inferior? That's the reasoning you're using.

For humor purposes:

video

Though, last data I saw showed that Asians are paid more in tech than whites, does that mean we get to cry pay gap over that?

bamccaig

Curiously, this woman actually appears to be a Feminist, and still thinks there's a chance that it can recover:

video

I don't particularly think that she understands the entire depth of issues surrounding Feminism today, but she certainly makes a lot of good arguments against modern day Feminism, and it's pretty clear that she's not a men's rights activist, but a Feminist!

Dizzy Egg

Quote:

I'm a feminist.

non-gender-conforming bisexual.

...oh my...I'm predicting a complete mental breakdown in a few years.

Specter Phoenix
Dizzy Egg said:

...oh my...I'm predicting a complete mental breakdown in a few years.

Nah, just means he dates men, women, attack helicopters, cars, and whatever else they decide to identify as in order to feel special like their parents told them.

Until feminists got into it sex and gender were the same thing. Now doctors and scientists have two genders (male and female) while feminists have no-binary, gender fluid, et. al. and expect doctors to acknowledge their delusions. I don't clump transgender in there as they are transitioning from male to female or female to male so it is still just two genders.

Dizzy Egg

What about the children....won't somebody think of the children!....unless he's like, 14 or something.

Then hopefully he'll grow out of it.

bamccaig

Wow, this is very promising to see. The youth are aware of the problem!

video

Specter Phoenix

Yeah, I saw that yesterday and died laughing at the "adult" teacher yelling and throwing a tantrum while the teen was calm and pointing out facts. Then the teacher blocking the teen into giving him the answer he wanted and start yelling like a retard. These are the fucking idiots teaching our kids? I suspect teachers will be suddenly fired or home schooling numbers will sky rocket. Thankfully my son is already home schooled so I can be the one that calls bullshit on the teacher, which will be rare as she is anti-feminist and thinks they are full of shit too.

Thread #616689. Printed from Allegro.cc