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Why using Python is supporting bigotry
Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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Yes.

Women and men should be equal. Hence, I'm a feminist.

Workers should own the means of production. Capitalism is a plight on the well being of society. Hence, I'm socialist.

There is no god or gods. Hence, I'm an atheist.

I don't believe in gender roles and similarly don't follow gender roles. Hence, I'm non-gender-conforming.

I'm sexually and romantically attracted to men and women. Hence, I'm bisexual.

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

All right torhu, what's your go-to label?

Chortle chortle 8-)

Aaron, I didn't really follow your question. It's probably an irrelevant detail though - my point was just to give some kind of example of how power can exist in some different ways.

edit - also, as usual, don't forget to agree with us on meanings. Feminism can't mean egalitarianism unless you agree that women are disadvantaged, which is clearly disputed. You can't have a productive conversation unless you meet people in the middle, even if you believe their position is wrong. A bit upset I have to repeat this.

edit 2 - inclined to agree about capitalism, except of course noting that we haven't worked out how to achieve such efficient productivity without it. Capitalism isn't fair but it is productive.

Posting from my phone is an interesting experience :)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
avatar

I'm not trying to have a productive conversation with torhu. He's a troll.

Meeting in the middle would be argument to moderation. That is a fallacy.

Feminism can't mean egalitarianism unless you agree that women are disadvantaged, which is clearly disputed.

I believe women are disadvantaged. This does not preclude me from also believing men face disadvantages.

Various members of this site only think men are disadvantaged in modern society. They are wrong. The radical feminist they cite believe only women are disadvantaged. They are wrong.

But to refer to the 'meet in the middle idea:' the issue resolves around the class struggle (e.g., wealth inequality), not men/women being more/less disadvantaged than the other. The class struggle is not 'in the middle'; it is completely outside the scope of ideas these two sides are debating. Hence they're both wrong.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Ok, but how are radical feminists in power?

GOOD. GOD. How can you say that with a straight face? Have you ever entered a college campus?

Name ONE other political group that gets their own college on every college campus? (Women's Studies == Feminist Studies)

Where's the PETA Studies? Where's the Reagonomics Studies? Where's the AGILE Development Studies?

And if you saw someone with a degree in "Ethical Treatment of Animals" would you take their degree, and opinions seriously?

This is straight up hilarious. :P After hearing that, I honestly can't take anything you say seriously. You might as well be telling me (against all scientific evidence) the world is only 4,00 years old. You're a statistics-denier.

I believe women are disadvantaged. This does not preclude me from also believing men face disadvantages.

Notice how one is an absolute statement and the other is a relative statement. Men are only disadvantaged based on a conditional criteria. Their penis of death allows them to be better then everyone else except in certain situations.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
avatar

I don't have any labels.

Women and men should be equal. Hence, I'm a feminist.

Well, most feminist activists don't agree with you on that. You might want to reconsider, just saying.

Quote:

Workers should own the means of production. Capitalism is a plight on the well being of society. Hence, I'm socialist.

Yes, that always works out well, doesn't it?

Quote:

There is no god or gods. Hence, I'm an atheist.

Hard to argue with that one.

Quote:

I don't believe in gender roles and similarly don't follow gender roles. Hence, I'm non-gender-conforming.

Gender roles in culture are based on biological gender differences. They are not straighjackets, just facts. Also, I think you are trolling.

Quote:

I'm sexually and romantically attracted to men and women. Hence, I'm bisexual.

Congrats, that sounds exciting.

I believe women are disadvantaged.

By whom? The god that you don't believe in?

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Yeah, fair point (trollage). ;)

My other half once said something insightful: feminism is something that could provide strength at times when she was single, but she's happy with me and she doesn't need it any more. (She does have a good career.) This was said in the context of how it must apply for others and why feminism is still attractive in a world where we are debatably pretty equitable by now.

I edited again btw.

[edit] torhu - it was a programming joke ;) goto label;

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
avatar

Have you ever entered a college campus?

How are college students powerful?

Quote:

You're a statistics-denier.

What statistics?

Quote:

Notice how one is an absolute statement and the other is a relative statement. Men are only disadvantaged based on a conditional criteria. Their penis of death allows them to be better then everyone else except in certain situations.

Wow, you're insane. Then again, you're the one who doesn't let the media have 'write access' to your brain as if you're special.

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

This meet in the middle thing applies both ways ;) Aaron is clearly now saying that men and women are both disadvantaged compared to the richest 1% (i.e. those who could afford the operation).

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
avatar

[edit] torhu - it was a programming joke ;) goto label;

Whoops, just a bit tired of this discussion ;D

How are college students powerful?

Right. It's not just them, they often have the support of the administration where they study, and often mainstream media support. And they are going to run the society in the future. When and how are they going to be ready for that? Yes, they behave like stupid kids. But feminism gets a free pass a lot of places. Why would you complain about the religious right's intrusion into people's lives and not about what feminists do? They are both harming people.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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On the grand scheme of things college students are incredibly powerful. For one thing, they're the CEOs and business owners and engineers of the future. For another, typically they are from relatively wealthy or at least middle class families. On the grand scheme of things, they're pretty high up there on the social class ranking. Additionally, knowledge is power. And lastly, college is one of the best times to explore new ideas and break boundaries and revolutionize the world. Insert: Well they also are likely to be the parents of tomorrow if they aren't already the parents of today. They're going to be shaping the minds of the next generation.

Aaron isn't really meeting in the middle because he's contradicting himself. He says that he admits that men have "disadvantages", but claims that women are disadvantaged. What's more, Feminists clearly do not acknowledge any disadvantages for men. If he truly believed that men had disadvantages then he wouldn't subscribe to Feminism. He would just call himself an egalitarian or something else ungendered. He also admits to intentionally trolling simply because he disagrees with people. That has more or less been his track record in my experience. He finds himself on the easy, but wrong side more often than not and doesn't like to provide reasonable arguments.

While certainly the top 1% are the most advantaged class of people on the planet, I don't think it's very useful to point this out in a debate regarding Feminism because it is completely off-topic. If you're suggesting that Feminism should be disbanded to focus on the greatest threat to our liberty and freedom and wellbeing then I'd say great, stop calling yourself a Feminist then and focus on what matters more! But that's pretty obviously not what his argument is because he's religious about being a Feminist. I assume he's essentially trolling and trying to derail the discussion further.

On a side note, it's a little bit too conspiracy theorist for my liking, but I do recall a video of some random guy that claims to be in contact with the Illuminati or something and claims that "the powers that be" (or a particular "figurehead" of the top 1%) confided in him that Feminism was very much funded/supported by the top 1%. The alleged reasoning being that it makes the entire population easier to control and it potentially doubles the workforce. While the conspiracy theories are a bit much to take in, I think it's perfectly logical for the top 1% to support Feminism for just those reasons. It makes sense to me anyway.

Mainly I don't believe that it's useful to make claims like "if classification X says something then you should believe it". That's essentially saying, "shut your brain off." NO, turn your brain on, and everybody crank up the resolution.

My other half once said something insightful: feminism is something that could provide strength at times when she was single, but she's happy with me and she doesn't need it any more. (She does have a good career.) This was said in the context of how it must apply for others and why feminism is still attractive in a world where we are debatably pretty equitable by now.

I find this very interesting and would like you to expand on what you think it means. Anybody else is encouraged to give their take on it too.

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

bamccaig said:

they're the CEOs and business owners and engineers of the future

The ones who actually have skills, yes. No one wants a CEO who will alienate all the customers, or an employee who will alienate all the other employees. As I said, it's not as bad as you think it is.

Quote:

completely off-topic

Actually no. For many feminists, I bet the real problem is that a lot of people are disadvantaged and they just only looked at the women. Acknowledging that men have problems too is a pretty meaningful concession, even if the wording is still coloured in favour of women's needs.

Quote:

I find this very interesting and would like you to expand on what you think it means.

What is there to expand on?

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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I don't think many of those people are smart or dedicated enough to be the CEOs, business owners, or engineers of the future, but they could well be the journalists, media people, and some of the voters of the future.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I don't think you understand. Colleges are becoming toxic to the truth. Scientific studies and research are being stifled because it doesn't align with the Feminist narrative. Obviously the gender studies students are unlikely to do anything useful for society, but they are not the only ones that this affects. It affects every student. It affects every discipline and every field, and it affects the technical and scientific fields the most because those are the ones that rely on truth to expand and grow. If you can't even ask questions you can never escape from the trap of bad ideas.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
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Yes, but this doesn't affact *all* of academia. It affects some campuses more than others, it affects the low-value departments more than the other, etc.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I can't find the specific material I would like to, but as I recall I have read or watched alleged scientists explaining that scientific research for topics that aligns with Feminism is much more likely to be funded than research that doesn't. This is the closest I could find at the moment:

video

In short, there is a political shift in how the funding is being handed out. Instead of basing it purely on the potential for scientific discovery, they're trying to predict what will have potential to bring products to market and effectively benefit industry. That's not what science is. It's not hard to see how Feminism would have a hand in these decisions considering its political might.

Append:

This seems kind of related too:

video

amarillion
Member #940
January 2001
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What you are saying is just an ad hominem fallacy. The choice of language should depend on technical merits, not on the opinions of the creator.

You are holding language creators to high standards of impartiality and morality, standards normally reserved for politicians. But language creators don't control armies or taxes or national budgets. Don't you think there is a difference?

Also, what happened to freedom of speech? Isn't van Rossem just entitled to his own opinion?

--
Martijn van Iersel | My Blog | Sin & Cos | Tegel tilemap editor | TINS 2017

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
avatar

Are you talking to me? It's not an ad hominem, that would be going after the man instead of the ball. This is relevant to the Python community, not the language per se. But it also impacts my desire to use and promote the language. Mostly, I was disappointed, because I have always thought highly of van Rossum. Perhaps too highly, which I am now starting to see.

If you like to talk in terms of logical fallacies: nice strawmen you got there :-*

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

Apparently relevant, although I hope this a privately agreed upon grouping of idiots instead of a university endorsed grouping or class:

video

Append:

There's a fun exercise. What would a more Feminist Python look like? That is, if Feminist extremists got their say about what is sexist about the actual language or standard library, what things would they change and how? In other words, let's put our troll hats on and think about what Python 4 will be.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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Polybios said:

All that SJW stuff is mostly about talking "correctly", isn't it? That reminds me of former Communist Eastern Europe a bit: "Comrade, we haven't heard a clear affirmation of the principles of Marxism-Leninism from you... Don't you agree with the latest resolutions of the central committee?"

The ones I get to have fun talking down to me regularly tell me (and mind you I've never published any of my game experiments), but because I say I'm a hobbyist game developer, I get the pleasure of being told:

Quote:

If your games have straight white male protags with no POC or queer/trans characters you are a part of the systematic oppression holding them back. You should educate yourself, realize your privilege, and be more considerate when making games.

They try to shame AAA, but only indies have caved to their shaming tactics because most indies fear they will ruin their game. I don't feel shame, rather I laugh myself to tears every time I open the text file that I saved that quote in. Honestly that quote is what keeps me going with programming and game dev knowing if I ever decide to publish the warped crap in my mind that their shaming will change to either anger or disgust.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

You know what? If an indie game developer with a good game were to strike that balance of managing to irk some SJWs while not being a blatant mickey-take, then the SJW police would actually serve as a nice bit of marketing. I haven't noticed that indies are caving to shaming tactics and can't quite imagine it really happening - do you have some examples? (Unless you just mean games that are no good anyway?)

bamccaig said:

What would a more Feminist Python look like?

Feminist Python exists. It's called Prolog. You don't tell it what to do - you give it all the information and allow it to figure the answer out in its own way while reaching many, many inaccurate conclusions first. ;)

Oh sorry, you wanted a serious answer?

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
avatar

This indy game is blatantly mocking SJW's, third wave feminists and their ideology:
Feminazi: The Triggering

Feminist Python exists. It's called Prolog. You don't tell it what to do - you give it all the information and allow it to figure the answer out in its own way while reaching many, many inaccurate conclusions first. ;)

;D

bamccaig said:

There's a fun exercise. What would a more Feminist Python look like? That is, if Feminist extremists got their say about what is sexist about the actual language or standard library, what things would they change and how? In other words, let's put our troll hats on and think about what Python 4 will be.

For starters you can't have a phallic name like Python, that obviously has to go. And the number 4 is offensive to the Japanese, it's believed to bring bad luck.

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Yeah, because 4 四 and death 死 can both be pronounced 'she', which is why that's a feminist argument? ;)

Speaking of which, a while ago I googled whether social justice and feminism and stuff as we know it happens in Japan. The impression I got was it didn't really. I don't feel like googling it again right now though. Thoughts?

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

torhu
Member #2,727
September 2002
avatar

Yeah, because 4 四 and death 死 can both be pronounced 'she', which is why that's a feminist argument? ;)

I'm assuming that means you understood my point ;)

Quote:

Speaking of which, a while ago I googled whether social justice and feminism and stuff as we know it happens in Japan. The impression I got was it didn't really. I don't feel like googling it again right now though. Thoughts?

It seems to be a western phenomena, which might be key to understanding it, and perhaps defeating it.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

Oh sorry, you wanted a serious answer?

Not necessarily. That one suits me just fine! :D

Greenlight voted and kickstarter pledged! :D

torhu said:

It seems to be a western phenomena, which might be key to understanding it, and perhaps defeating it.

Perhaps only in the Western world do women have so much free time on their hands? I wish the men could say the same!

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

I love that Aaron conveniently misread my comment to solely be about students. As if college professors don't have significant respect and influence over their student bodies. As if the entire college of women's studies doesn't exist. Nah, brush over facts that endanger your ego.

And even going on "just students", they clearly have power because they get plenty of speakers and comedians banned from campus. Well... until their parents see their actions and pull them from the school like they did with Mizzou. ;D

Wow, you're insane. Then again, you're the one who doesn't let the media have 'write access' to your brain as if you're special.

Don't you love how far-left liberals can't just be liberal without ALSO feeling smug about it?

They seem to be the only ones these days who can't function around anyone except other liberals. Even conservatives have gotten better about hanging around gays, and other "hot button" things for them.

They just CAN'T accept that people think differently (they have unique experiences that mold their worldview?! NO. ONLY OURS IS REAL.) There is no discussion. There is only right and wrong. Good and evil.

Aaron, if I had any respect for you before (which I did), it's certainly gone now.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs



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