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Idiots like this will ruin VR
Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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Yep, idiots like this will cause VR to be heavily regulated. If more idiots come up with stupid crap like this we will see retarded laws put in place on VR gaming.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

piccolo
Member #3,163
January 2003
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VR is not ready yet we skipped over a whole step in the evolution. we are trying to walk before we crawl I am currently working on that missing step right now and I should be done in about a year or 2.

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Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

We knew we could count on you, Piccolo!

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Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

All that's needed is the ability to block and report a user for harassing conduct. Repeat offenders can have their game footage reviewed and be suspended/banned. Easy.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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She was playing a multiplayer game on the Internet with a stranger. As always, the online experience cannot be guaranteed safe (that's what those disclaimers say in every online game before you get to play). You've agreed to that by playing. It will be up to each individual gamer and vendor to manage blocking communication between users who violate terms of use. In extreme cases where the harassment takes on an exceptional form perhaps the police would be involved by the vendor. That's all it is.

Any woman that "feels" violated is choosing to play the game and opening themselves up to uncertain interactions with strangers. If they don't want to experience that then they should be playing single player games or playing LAN games with friends, or online games with private rooms. Or moderators should be responsible for keeping certain rooms "safe". It should have no impact on the rest of us.

How you "feel" doesn't weigh in on the severity of somebody's actions. Their actions are either legal or illegal. In general, a sexual harassment claim could be made, but it's all for nothing. What they're trying to do is label people violent predators for somewhat natural behavior. The solution is to stop whining and leave. Or else seek out reasonable solutions to the problem. Making extremist claims and demanding the entire technology be regulated is absurd, misses the point, and accomplishes nothing.

MiquelFire
Member #3,110
January 2003
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I think bam said all there needs to be said about this issue.

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Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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When you say idiot, are you referring to the author, or the virtual groper BigBro442?

The author. What she described wasn't sexual harassment, rather it was sexual assault. Problem is the avatar wasn't her. It wasn't real. If women start claiming incidents of sexual assault in VR, we will have a new breed of legislation being pushed by politicians.

Look at the whole GamerGate issue. In 2 years I have not seen one single piece of evidence of the claims against them outside of "This alleged victim says it is true". Media claims Wu and Quinn left their homes yet there was zero evidence of that being true. Some even used Quinn's own Twitter timeline against her by showing she bragged about going to Europe around the exact time she alleged she was chased from her home. Others even pointed out that in a video with Wu at her office during a dev video and the interviews she did where she was allegedly away from her home had identical furniture and other similarities. Yet, with no evidence politicians like Katherine Clark have spear-headed trying to get something done to make gaming more inclusive. Here is a former anti-GG person who went neutral after being tired of attacking his audience, apologized for his past actions, and then broke his silence to tell what GG is.

After seeing two years of lies about GG, I question the validity of the author's claims in that article. Just a new claim to paint gamers negatively.

Like the RollingStones magazine an the UVA Rape story, GamerGate and stories like this are being used to crucify gamers. I'm just curious what politicians will jump on this story and start calling for legislation be put in place. If Hillary wins, with her history of wanting legislation to fine retailers for parents buying their kids violent games, what kind of crazy legislation will she call for as POTUS? Which countries would follow suit? Gamers own personal Pandora's Box.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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The author. What she described wasn't sexual harassment, rather it was sexual assault. Problem is the avatar wasn't her. It wasn't real. If women start claiming incidents of sexual assault in VR, we will have a new breed of legislation being pushed by politicians.

An avatar is a virtual extension of you. What people do to the avatar, they are in effect doing to you. That is how the author sees it, and I'm not surprised you don't. What happened was a violation of her person, whether it was 'real' or not.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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An avatar is a virtual extension of you. What people do to the avatar, they are in effect doing to you. That is how the author sees it, and I'm not surprised you don't. What happened was a violation of her person, whether it was 'real' or not.

Alright, next time I play a VR FPS and get shot I'll demand that user be charged with attempted murder. The avatar is an extension of me so he was trying to kill me. Then I'll run to my local politician and plead for them to make legislation.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I relate this to being trolled in GTA: Online. I'd swear people have aimbots and the like and they'll drive by and instakill you and then just keep killing you as you respawn nearby. They'll do it until you quit. Is it fair? No. Does it feel good? No, obviously you feel powerless. Is it criminal? Of course not. They're not actually hurting you. You are free to leave. It certainly hurts the experience for everyone, but there's only so much that Rockstar can do to prevent it. After they've made their best efforts there's nothing left. If players want to be anti-social they're going to be. For the most part, you can still have fun and avoid them. Worst case, you can always press the power button and turn it off.

I'd say the same is true of this VR harassment. It's certainly wrong, on some level, but it's a gray area. It isn't actually violating her "person". It's violating her mind, at worst. But again, she is free to turn it off. Human interaction is a very complicated process. There's a lot of body language involved. Often, words contradict actions. This is obviously exacerbated with video games, even VR, because not all body language is transmitted. Even when you have the full message the message isn't always clear. Odds are this guy figured if she didn't like it she would leave. Which I think is pretty reasonable. Presumably the game didn't force her to play with him. It sounds like she endured the "assault" for several games before quitting. It must not have affected her very much if it took that long to quit. Her husband was there laughing about it. Obviously, she is making something out of nothing. I'm quite sure a normal husband would not tolerate his wife being "assaulted" and laugh about it.

Even though Specter takes this Gamergate stuff too seriously, it does more or less sound like the same thing all over again. More social justice warriors making something out of nothing to attract attention and gain power over others.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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Alright, next time I play a VR FPS and get shot I'll demand that user be charged with attempted murder. The avatar is an extension of me so he was trying to kill me. Then I'll run to my local politician and plead for them to make legislation.

Get hysterical much? Obviously in a FPS people are going to try to kill you. That's part of the point(less) game you're playing. If people threaten to murder you and harass you, obviously that's not part of the game. Virtually groping someone is not part of the game. It's not called Grope us please. No changes need to be made to existing laws to govern harassment, which is what he was doing, harassing her. It obviously made her feel uncomfortable and unwelcome, which is not part of the game.

bamccaig said:

I'd say the same is true of this VR harassment. It's certainly wrong, on some level, but it's a gray area. It isn't actually violating her "person". It's violating her mind, at worst. But again, she is free to turn it off. Human interaction is a very complicated process. There's a lot of body language involved. Often, words contradict actions. This is obviously exacerbated with video games, even VR, because not all body language is transmitted. Even when you have the full message the message isn't always clear. Odds are this guy figured if she didn't like it she would leave. Which I think is pretty reasonable. Presumably the game didn't force her to play with him.

You're blaming the victim for the actions of the perpetrator. Of course she is free to turn it off, but why should she be forced to leave? He is the one causing her problems, he should be the one to leave. His reasons for doing it don't matter at all, what matters is that he was intentionally causing her discomfort, which is HIS fault, not HERS. Get that through your thick head.

You kids have no idea what civility is anymore. Give you guys an avatar and then anything goes. That's not the way it should work. People should be held responsible for their actions, whether it's in VR, an online world or something else.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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Get hysterical much? Obviously in a FPS people are going to try to kill you. That's part of the point(less) game you're playing. If people threaten to murder you and harass you, obviously that's not part of the game. Virtually groping someone is not part of the game. It's not called Grope us please. No changes need to be made to existing laws to govern harassment, which is what he was doing, harassing her. It obviously made her feel uncomfortable and unwelcome, which is not part of the game.

You're right, I'm being hysterical. I should be laughing at the article for the fact they can't even get the right law being broke. Groping someone is sexual assault, not sexual harassment. The law doesn't recognize virtual groping as illegal because there is no physical contact. I'm sure morons will call for the law to include VR spaces. If that happens, how long do you think it will be before games as a whole are clumped into it because of them being virtual worlds?

Since you like the angle of "it's not part of the game" I will change the game and still use my previous argument. QuiVR, the game she alleges she was groped in, is about killing waves of monsters, not the players. So, according to you, if I play QuiVR and another person starts shooting arrows at me, I can charge them with attempted murder because the avatar (a floating helmet, bow, and hand) is an extension of me and it's not part of the game.

I understand civility. What I don't understand are over sensitive idiots claiming everyone is racist, sexist, misogynist, harassing them based off words and difference of opinions. Her claiming sexual assault due to a VR encounter is as laughable as another person claiming attempted murder because they shot the arrow toward them instead of the monsters.

The argument you gave is also why the UN Women and other groups are demanding game devs change their games. According to them the characters we play are extensions of us in the fictional world. Though, the UN countered themselves when they named Wonder Woman ambassador and other UN staff stated she wasn't real so she couldn't be a good role model for women. We have hit a point in history where it is either all in or all out. VR is opening the same old debate and if it gains ground all games will be pulled into the shitstorm again with the same old points being debated. If they deem VR to be the same as doing the actions to our physical selves then they will revisit the claims of avatars being raped in modded servers of GTAV Online on the PC. This is the games industry Pandora's Box waiting to open.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Like bambams, I'm addicted to anti-feminist rants on YouTube, so given half a chance, I would call out any unreasonable behaviour.

I have to say I can understand this woman's sentiments completely. I don't doubt that it was a bad experience and there's fundamentally no issue with her writing about it. The only part that raised warning signs for me was the use of the word "misogyny". Sexual assault, perhaps, but someone who does that is not misogynist - quite the opposite. "Misogyny" is a current hot-button word and this tells me that this woman probably has certain political leanings that existed prior to the incident.

Anyway, I'm sure VR will be allowed to flourish unfettered, because after all, there's money in it, and politicians like money. ;)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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You're right, I'm being hysterical. I should be laughing at the article for the fact they can't even get the right law being broke. Groping someone is sexual assault, not sexual harassment. The law doesn't recognize virtual groping as illegal because there is no physical contact. I'm sure morons will call for the law to include VR spaces. If that happens, how long do you think it will be before games as a whole are clumped into it because of them being virtual worlds?

It's not sexual assault. There was no physical contact, as you kindly pointed out. It's harassment, because it was demeaning and lude, and more than unwelcome. Just because it's VR doesn't mean it wasn't 'real'.

Specter Phoenix said:

Since you like the angle of "it's not part of the game" I will change the game and still use my previous argument. QuiVR, the game she alleges she was groped in, is about killing waves of monsters, not the players. So, according to you, if I play QuiVR and another person starts shooting arrows at me, I can charge them with attempted murder because the avatar (a floating helmet, bow, and hand) is an extension of me and it's not part of the game.

You're still being hysterical. ::)

Specter Phoenix said:

The argument you gave is also why the UN Women and other groups are demanding game devs change their games.

If the game induces bullying, harassment, and violation of other people's rights, then it needs to be moderated. Perhaps the games should be changed. All I see are pointless games about killing everything in sight as brutally as possible. It's encouraging bad behavior. It teaches people that everything is okay as long as they can get away with it, instead of teaching people responsibility for their own actions.

Specter Phoenix said:

If they deem VR to be the same as doing the actions to our physical selves then they will revisit the claims of avatars being raped in modded servers of GTAV Online on the PC. This is the games industry Pandora's Box waiting to open.

Since when is rape okay? In VR or not? GTA is a heaping pile of garbage, and it encourages lawlessness and vice. I would never let MY kids play shit like that.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Since when is rape okay? In VR or not? GTA is a heaping pile of garbage, and it encourages lawlessness and vice.

How about killing things, as in Quake?
How about shooting down airplanes, as in EF2000?
Breaking the speed limit, running red lights, etc. as in Need for Speed?
It's just pixels on a screen.

I don't play those very often anymore because I'm bored with them, not because they make me antisocial or dangerous in any way.

If you point out my rants over the last few years, that's the result of childhood experiences reinforced by like-minded people on forums, not video games.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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If the game induces bullying, harassment, and violation of other people's rights, then it needs to be moderated. Perhaps the games should be changed. All I see are pointless games about killing everything in sight as brutally as possible. It's encouraging bad behavior. It teaches people that everything is okay as long as they can get away with it, instead of teaching people responsibility for their own actions.

Oh, Jesus, you're not one of those idiots that believe violent games make violent people are you?

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

you're not one of those idiots that believe

Taken from the tutorial "How to start a productive discussion". ;D

Felix-The-Ghost
Member #9,729
April 2008
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this thread is bringing me various lols :D

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Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

This is no laughing matter! A woman outside of a Muslim country was literally violated and has to live with it for the rest of her life! :o

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Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

Luigi started doing this years ago in Superstar Saga.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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Oh, Jesus, you're not one of those idiots that believe violent games make violent people are you?

Sure you want to bring Jesus into this? And no, rather the other way around. Violent people like to play violent games. It feeds their need. Congratulations on avoiding everything I said and belittling me at the same time. You should be proud of your accomplishments. ;)

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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Polybios said:

Taken from the tutorial "How to start a productive discussion".

Not meant to be productive. Anyone that takes the view that violent games make violent people are top notch morons. They are right up there with the idiots that say "teach boys not to rape", "teach boys not to steal", or "teach boys murder is wrong".

A woman outside of a Muslim country was literally violated and has to live with it for the rest of her life!

That brings up the whole first world bullshit of women wanting games to change because the damsel in distress trope is demeaning to women while playing the damsel for their choice cause. Like the African American girl that went to the vigil for the gay bar shooting just to whine about BLM and how she felt scared for being in front of all those white people. My first reaction was, "then get off the stage, no one made you get up there". I mean, I was overjoyed when I saw her derail a day of mourning to whine about BLM and her insecurities.

What makes her story more laughable is the avatar is a helmet, floating bow and floating hand. Don't know if she gives good helmet, but how does one grope an avatar when there is no body to grope? We better consult the invisible man for this case!

You should be proud of your accomplishments.

Accomplishments mean nothing after you die so there is no reason to waste your life seeking pointless gratification in one's self.

Quote:

Congratulations on avoiding everything I said and belittling me at the same time.

Interesting, it was only belittling to you if you actually believe games make violent people, but you said you don't so it is a moot point. Not avoiding anything, your arguments sound like that of the people that want more games like Gone Home and Depression Quest and do away with Mario, GTA, and any game that they deem negative to the perception of women and LGBT.

Quote:

Sure you want to bring Jesus into this?

Sure, we are arguing fiction so might as well bring in the greatest fictional character of all time.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
avatar

Not meant to be productive. Anyone that takes the view that violent games make violent people are top notch morons. They are right up there with the idiots that say "teach boys not to rape", "teach boys not to steal", or "teach boys murder is wrong".

Maybe you should read my response before you call me a top notch moron again. The only moron here is you, if you think teaching kids morals is a bad thing.

Specter Phoenix said:

What makes her story more laughable is the avatar is a helmet, floating bow and floating hand. Don't know if she gives good helmet, but how does one grope an avatar when there is no body to grope? We better consult the invisible man for this case!

It's clear he was being lewd, whether there was anything there to actually physically grope or not. It made her uncomfortable, and it was harassment.

I can't believe you guys are actually FOR a lame ass loser like BigBro442 getting his jollies off at someone else's expense. Are you really gonna sit there and say he was in the right? Or that his actions were reasonable?

Specter Phoenix said:

Accomplishments mean nothing after you die so there is no reason to waste your life seeking pointless gratification in one's self.

You may not be able to take anything with you, but you can have rewards waiting for you when you die.

Matthew 6:19-21 said:

19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Felix-The-Ghost
Member #9,729
April 2008
avatar

TL;DR? Read the bold text.

To spectators his hands would be grabbing only air, but I imagine I would be uncomfortable too from the perspective of the woman.

I'd guess when she looked down in the game she would see his hands there and the perception of VR would probably make her "experience" it. Just like in the horror games in VR you feel like the monster is inches from your face (but isn't really there)

I don't doubt this woman was traumatized. It sounds like she has minimal online experience and thus isn't acclimated** to these scenarios which unfortunately are common in mixed gender encounters because the anonymity "enables" more bold behavior without the obvious risks one would face doing such things in person. The issue is the designers aren't intending on people doing things like that. "Online experiences not rated"

All that said, I've been following that game's progress on the YT channel for a while. I don't remember if there is a "kick player" option but even then you'd probably need popular vote to kick a player. I think it would be an easy and effective "solution" to have a mute function that not only mutes audio but also hides the avatar of an offending player. This might be a good feature in any VR multiplayer game actually.

** I think in general a person shouldn't be expected to be acclimated to such experiences. I don't see a need to actively monitor players but ideally an online game would have systems in place to minimize these occurrences as well as the reminder that behavior of people online is never certain, in any game.

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<--- The ghost with the most!
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