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Idiots like this will ruin VR
Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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Nothing to forgive. FBI already investigated and determined there was nothing credible about the allegations against the hashtag. Because of that Wu and others are claiming GamerGate secretly infiltrated the FBI.

Though, I do love the game media/anti-GG coverage of GamerGate as two years ago the movement was just a few "obtuse shit-slingers living in their mom's basement" and now we are so powerful that we influence the sales of Ghostbusters, control the FBI, and apparently are the reason Trump won the primaries and edging toward winning the Presidency.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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Trump did well because he appealed to the long-suppressed anger of bigots, not because of GamerGate.

Racism, sexism, and xenophobia never died out because the laws changed. Trump appeals to the the populist notions ("make America great again", as compared to when? The 60s? The 70s? The 80s?) that enable bigotry and incites a nationalistic fervor much like historical and contemporary populists before him. He simply gave them an outlet to vocalize their hate publicly.

GameGate is nothing compared to the prejudism that still permeates American society.

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Derezo said:

That's the impression I get from most "Pro-#GamerGate" articles (and therefore Mr. Phoenix's posts in threads like this) that are posted. Someone does something mean and terrible and they're at arms to "defend it" by lashing out at everyone who sees the it as mean and terrible, and suggesting there is some sort of collective agenda behind it or that these people are conspiring in some way.

These terrible people are often only found in online settings, because the anonymity allows them to behave that way and expose their rotten innards without having to identify themselves.

Probably not fun to play games with, they're the ones who are bullying women when they identify as female, target them with sexual comments, etc. If you've spent any time in multiplayer games you've seen this, but if not, you're probably participating in it and are oblivious to what you're doing behind that mask.

And the best part is that it doesn't really matter what the crazy extreme feminists think, or what the crazy extreme anti-feminists think because nobody else cares. Even my two flatmates, who do almost nothing but play games have never even heard of gamer gate.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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GameGate is nothing compared to the prejudism that still permeates American society.

You wouldn't think that reading game media sites. They have turned GG into such a huge boogeyman that you would think we were on the same plane as Skull and Bones Secret Society. According to feminist bloggers, because gamers are "mostly white cis heterosexual males, they control everything and chase all women out of their boys only club".

LennyLen said:

And the best part is that it doesn't really matter what the crazy extreme feminists think, or what the crazy extreme anti-feminists think because nobody else cares.

I know nobody cares. Reminds me of a certain poem. They likely won't care until every game they play gives them multiple objectives where you get dialogues you can't skip about how to treat women, how to treat minorities, how people need to be inclusive, how you should feel horrible for liking violent games, et. al. Well, they [AAA companies] don't care about what gamers (their consumers) think, a lot of AAA devs met with Anita and praised the ideas she had for changing games. This is a woman that has repeatedly made it clear she wants games like Super Mario and Legend of Zelda to never be made again. She is the poster child of Feminism for the past three years, a woman that promotes a hive mindset instead of a woman's choice.

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Even my two flatmates, who do almost nothing but play games have never even heard of gamer gate.

That just tells me they don't look at any game review sites or media because GG is regularly brought up in articles or flat out blamed for some new atrocity. NYT, Washington Post, Huffington Post, Kotaku, and Polygon are obsessed with blaming GG for something. Gamespot, IGN, and PCGamer even had articles about them a few times. Hell, some critics have blamed GG for why they didn't have the guts to criticize Anita's videos (as touched on in this article).

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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You wouldn't think that reading game media sites. They have turned GG into such a huge boogeyman that you would think we were on the same plane as Skull and Bones Secret Society. According to feminist bloggers, because gamers are "mostly white cis heterosexual males, they control everything and chase all women out of their boys only club".

That's why my news is collected from three large publishers (NPR, BBC, Al Jazeera) and assorted minor outlets, but not game media websites.

You might want to do the same.

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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I know NPR covered GamerGate as did BBC and Al Jazeera, but the later two have had many question their ethics because of one sided coverage of it (I think that was more BBC than Al Jazeera, as the video below does have a segment of pro-gg talking; first one I've seen in the two years it has gone on). The media claims they can't talk to anyone in GamerGate because they are all anonymous, which is a lie because I've contacted all the media outlets explaining that I'm a supporter of it and use my real face and name on my Twitter account. I'm not alone, Mark Kern, Derek Smart, Shoe0nHead, Thunderf00t, Sargon of Akkad, Total Biscuit, and many others are open about who they are, but the media still claimed we are anonymous and unable to talk to them.

One video above that you refused to watch pointed out flaws with Al Jazeera coverage of GamerGate.

video

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
avatar

Maybe the difference is I care about a broader range of issues than you do?

I read Al Jazeera because it's more critical of America than BBC/NPR while not being nutty like RT.

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
avatar

No the difference is that you and everyone else don't care that sites that are supposed to be promoting games to the consumers (gamers), instead spend their time writing articles shitting on their reader base. Being a hobbyist game dev I take issue with that.

That was my pushing point as to why I became pro-GG. The issue then became AAA devs flat out told any indie dev or hobbyist like myself that we are black listed for siding with the gamers.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Aaron, thanks for going through that video for me - you're quite right about many things that I just didn't check. Sargon is good at sounding reasonable - do you think it's possible he even has the right intentions but is unaware of his own biases?

Interestingly, if you search YouTube for "reasons to vote for Hillary Clinton", you find video after video of piss-takes from people who clearly don't think there's any reason to vote for her, and no videos genuinely highlighting any positives or even any anti-Trump reasons. Why would that be - have YouTube's search algorithms just gained momentum in that specific direction? I found it difficult not to read into it that at least heavy Internet users have firmly come down on the side of Trump. Interestingly this even goes against the statement I heard somewhere that big corporations like Google are unfairly promoting pro-Hillary results in their searches. I can't figure it all out - life's too short. (But you seem to enjoy it!) Does YouTube just contain a lot of people who aren't doing too well in life and are therefore anti-establishment because it must be someone else's fault and anything's better than the status quo (even Trump)?

So, on the subject of Trump, I do want to point a few things out:

Trump's policies and statements include: building a wall (xenophobic, racist), banning Muslims from entering the country (Islamphobic, arguably racist if it extends to stereotypical images of Muslims [e.g., Arabs/Persians]), fabricated statistics about blacks (racist), and mountain of sexist statements about women.

Building a wall - I think when it comes to border controls, the position countries like the US take is that there are lots of people who want to get in for understandable reasons, more than who want to go the other way, but the infrastructure couldn't take it if everyone went. Therefore, there has to be a system to limit the number (probably based on who can contribute most to the economy or who has special interpersonal reasons such as a relationship), and the wall must just be a way to enforce the border. This is just me playing devil's advocate and my point is that it isn't fair just to immediately label it xenophobic and racist (even if, on further inspection, it is - I don't know).

Islam is a complex topic. The impression I've got is that Islam coincides (for whatever reason) with many of the countries with the worst human rights records, and therefore, a lot of Muslims come over with views (e.g. on women as property) that are incompatible with Western laws and culture. Of course every person is different, but while there are some who are happy to change their views and integrate, there are many who aren't. This is exacerbated by the propensity everyone has to call "racist" and "Islamophobic" at every opportunity (and by the way, "racist" isn't accurate since people are judging the religion/culture/politics, not the skin colour). Hence we have the Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal, where a culture of child abuse continued for several years because (allegedly) officers were afraid of being accused of racism if they upheld the law.

So the big question for me is: just how many of the public are bigots as many accuse, and how many of them are actually experiencing a culture clash where they feel their side and their country's values are not being recognised? I can't answer that question because I live in the Cambridge area which is a total bubble. Some other parts of the UK are supposed to have these problems, but honestly - I don't know. And I know a lot less than that about the US.

Fabricated statistics about blacks - you mean this? Not something I'd seen. Wow, that's special. Now in fairness, again, I heard there is a trend of black people being poorer, forming cohesive families less successfully, and committing more crime (amongst themselves), and obviously we should be 1. not judging individuals based on this trend and 2. doing what we can to help them break out of the destructive cycles some of them are in. I don't think it would be racist to point this out (yet some say it is), but those made-up statistics are on a whole new level. Did he mean it or was he trolling?

Finally the alleged sexism: I assume this sums it up pretty well. Now mostly I think he's being outrageous, and mostly I also think he's targeting specific people he doesn't like. He's obviously not above using attractiveness or stereotypes in those situations. I'd agree that in an ideal world, you want someone in office who is a little more careful, but I wonder if what he's doing here is really just standup comedy of sorts? And has he ever talked as if his policies might disadvantage women?

Yeah. I guess I bought into the narrative of Trump as something else, anything else, to break up a corrupt establishment, but I don't really know. Maybe that's accurate but then we'd just have a different corrupt establishment...? Or maybe he'd just be so incompetent that he'd be impeached in a month, and then what? :)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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Sargon is good at sounding reasonable - do you think it's possible he even has the right intentions but is unaware of his own biases?

I think most people have the right intentions, and I extend this to bamccaig and Spectre Phoenix. It's just they have immense biases they refuse to acknowledge.

(Note: I have a great many biases too. It's not possible to evaluate everything objectively).

Quote:

Interestingly this even goes against the statement I heard somewhere that big corporations like Google are unfairly promoting pro-Hillary results in their searches.

I ran a test on this myself when the quote news unquote broke: http://pastebin.com/5FFq0uDf

It was immediately obvious there was no bias.

Quote:

This is just me playing devil's advocate and my point is that it isn't fair just to immediately label it xenophobic and racist (even if, on further inspection, it is - I don't know).

Oh, I completely understand. There's a difference between border control and immigration policies and the claims that Mexico is sending rapists, or that Mexicans are taking our jobs. The wall is driven by nationalistic and xenophobic fears. The rhetoric is what matters.

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Islam is a complex topic.

Definitely. It's just a lot of fears are simply based on non-existent threats. Muslim immigrants seeking asylum from war torn countries undergo an extreme vetting process. Terrorists are not getting through, and to be fair, a lot of innocents wouldn't either.

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"racist" isn't accurate since people are judging the religion/culture/politics, not the skin colour

The categorization for Muslim is racially and ethnically driven. I've witnessed people calling Obama Muslim. Why is that, if not for his name and skin color? Why are Sikhs the victims of hate crimes supposedly targeting Muslims? (Not that anyone should be a target of a hate crime).

Quote:

So the big question for me is: just how many of the public are bigots as many accuse, and how many of them are actually experiencing a culture clash where they feel their side and their country's values are not being recognised?

Frankly, I don't know. I also hold the belief that we can evaluate actions by their outcomes, and non-racist actions can have racist outcomes and vice versa. For example, affirmative action is a racist action that has a positive, non-racist outcome, while eliminating 'forced busing' to save costs is a neutral action with a racist outcome (increased segregation in schools).

Fabricated statistics about blacks

Yes. The issues blacks face is still unprecedented. That's why Black Lives Matter is a thing, and why antagonistic statements like All Lives Matter are disingenuous.

I was genuinely shocked when I saw numbers on wealth among white and black Americans. This is an okay source. The biggest one, personally: "The report found that in 2013, white households in the U.S. had a median wealth of $144,200 -- almost 13 times the median wealth of black households at $11,200."

Or maybe he'd just be so incompetent that he'd be impeached in a month, and then what?

We'd get Mike Pence, who is also another disgusting person. At least Trump isn't against LGBT. And unlike Trump, Pence isn't an outsider to the GOP. No, Pence, like Cruz, is the modern GOP in human form.

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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At least Trump isn't against LGBT.

Yeah, right. Maybe not openly, but I bet he hates them just as much as he hates Mexicans and Blacks.

Felix-The-Ghost
Member #9,729
April 2008
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he hates Mexicans and Blacks

What? ???

==========================
<--- The ghost with the most!
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[Website] [Youtube]

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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(Note: I have a great many biases too. It's not possible to evaluate everything objectively).

Like the bias of only paying attention to liberal news media while arguing liberal view points?

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
avatar

Like the bias of only paying attention to liberal news media while arguing liberal view points?

Are you using liberal as an insult? Are BBC and Al Jazeera liberal? And did you know I am so far to the left that the views expressed in NPR are closer to Fox News than they are to my own?

This piece, "Are We Wrong to Think We're Right?", is very interesting. You might want to listen. In fact, anyone participating in this discussion might want to.

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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Are you using liberal as an insult?

From my understanding, when you use liberal as an insult one does "liberal" in quotes to imply they aren't really liberal.

Quote:

Are BBC and Al Jazeera liberal?

NPR, BBC, and Al Jazeera have all admitted to having liberal bias.

Quote:

This piece, "Are We Wrong to Think We're Right?" [www.npr.org], is very interesting. You might want to listen. In fact, anyone participating in this discussion might want to.

Was willing to listen until I saw it was TED Talks, then I didn't care. TED Talks lost any influence on me when one year a woman said women made up over 50% of managerial positions just to come back the next year claiming there wasn't enough women in managerial positions.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

TED Talks

Throwing out the baby with the bathwater much? ;)

why antagonistic statements like All Lives Matter are disingenuous.

That's not fair. Those comments come from people who have seen ridiculous BLM protests, of which there is apparently no shortage. Take the Heathrow one for example: whatever your cause, obstructing a highway and interfering with uninvolved people's plans is unlikely to be justified, and it's not as if anti-black sentiment is tolerated anyway in this country, so what are they trying to achieve - if not to exalt black people as far as possible and trample on white people, or even just because it's an easy movement to associate with if they're looking for something, anything, to fight for and give their lives meaning?

Point being: yes, there are problems in black communities that need solving, but Black Lives Matter doesn't seem to be going the right way about fixing it, unless you can show otherwise? So of course people are going to speak out against what they see of BLM.

More general point: when we drill down into these points, we tend to find common ground, but I feel as if we're constantly starting from a position that involves using the classic labels (racism, sexism, Islamophobia and so on), and I don't enjoy constantly trying to rein it in and suggest a more balanced view. Can't we just treat people as individuals and stop with the opportunistic labelling?

[EDIT]
I mean it - disingenuous is a very serious accusation as it refers to deliberate deception, and you just used it on a large group of people who absolutely have the best intentions. Something's not right there.

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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Was willing to listen until I saw it was TED Talks, then I didn't care. TED Talks lost any influence on me when one year a woman said women made up over 50% of managerial positions just to come back the next year claiming there wasn't enough women in managerial positions.

Of course. Not surprised at all. You're a model of reason and open-mindedness after all. ;D

I mean it - disingenuous is a very serious accusation as it refers to deliberate deception, and you just used it on a large group of people who absolutely have the best intentions. Something's not right there.

I was referring specifically to the statement "All Lives Matter." In other words, the marginalization of a major issue facing a minority (blacks being substantially more likely to be victims of police violence) because the same happens to others, including the majority (whites are also victims of police violence).

A metaphor would be death from breast cancer. Women are diagnosed with breast cancer at a far, far higher rate than men, but men actually have a higher fatality rate (albeit marginally). At a hypothetical Male Lives Matter breast cancer awareness event, is it proper for women to shut down men by saying "all breast cancer patients matter?" Surely not?

I agree Black Lives Matter overall is not well organized and many protests have done more harm than good. It seems to be par with the course for modern protests (Occupy Wallstreet, for example), even though you'd think with technology, mobilization and logistics would be on point.

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Can't we just treat people as individuals and stop with the opportunistic labelling?

I don't quite understand. If someone says X group is inferior (e.g., implications that women are less capable than men, as stated in this thread by certain members), what am I to call it?

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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Throwing out the baby with the bathwater much?

Well I could hate it for what one liberal said about them: "TED Talks is just a conference for rich liberals to circle jerk themselves and present ideas without challenge."

At least I stated they contradict themselves from one year to the next. It's a broad statement, but at least it was achieved from watching TED Talks on Youtube for a few years.

You're a model of reason and open-mindedness after all.

Says the liberal who only pushes liberal media and refuses to view anything outside of those liberal sites. Even when I linked to Chris Ray Gun's (who is liberal) video pointing out flaws in Al Jazeera's coverage of GamerGate during one of their videos, you refused because it wasn't one of your sites.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
avatar

Says the liberal who only pushes liberal media and refuses to view anything outside of those liberal sites.

So you are using liberal as an insult! :) In 120 words, you used 'liberal' 6 times. I managed 4 in 59 words. Beat that. :)

Quote:

Even when I linked to Chris Ray Gun's (who is liberal) video pointing out flaws in Al Jazeera's coverage of GamerGate during one of their videos, you refused because it wasn't one of your sites.

I refuse to watch videos. There's a difference.

Quote:

who is liberal

I'm a liberal of the "seize the means of production" kind, not the comfortable middle-class kind. You are aware liberal is a very broad label?

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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So you are using liberal as an insult!

Better question is why do you keep taking it as an insult? I'm just using the proper label for both you and the sites political leanings.

I refuse to watch videos. There's a difference.

This piece, "Are We Wrong to Think We're Right?", is very interesting. You might want to listen. In fact, anyone participating in this discussion might want to.

Difference is you make yourself seem like you are full of shit. "I don't watch videos...here watch this video I like that preaches what I believe!"

You are aware liberal is a very broad label?

You don't say! I thought there was a factory in Washington, DC that had a cookie cutter marked liberal that you all came from! I'm so glad you cleared that up, it's like the people who identify as the label are as varied as the populace of the United States.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
avatar

Difference is you make yourself seem like you are full of shit. "I don't watch videos...here watch this video I like that preaches what I believe!"

But it's an audio recording? With a transcript?

Do you know the NPR stands for National Public Radio? They don't transmit videos over radio.

I didn't even know there was a video on the page because of the add-ons I have.

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
avatar

Do you know the NPR stands for National Public Radio?

Careful, according to feminist you are mansplaining. You just became part of the problem, you must be a secret agent of the patriarchy! Is this the point where, because you disagree with me I whine about harassment?

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
avatar

I refuse to watch videos. There's a difference.

Actually, I would consider it unreasonable to reject evidence because of the format it is in. There are probably a lot of good reasons to reject the evidence, but that isn't one of them.

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
avatar

LennyLen said:

Actually, I would consider it unreasonable to reject evidence because of the format it is in. There are probably a lot of good reasons to reject the evidence, but that isn't one of them.

Videos often provides no sources, use rhetorical tricks over genuine substance, and inherently are hostile to efficient querying/skimming. Not to mention I provide Google revenue and personal data by watching them.

To be blunt, you would not use a random YouTube video as a source in any remotely serious debate.

I watched the video Bruce Perry linked to earlier, and it simply concreted my hostility towards videos as a discussion format. There was 5 minutes of content explained over 30 minutes. Absurd!

---
ItsyRealm, a quirky 2D/3D RPG where you fight, skill, and explore in a medieval world with horrors unimaginable.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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