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Ok, so this MAY get trolled out of hand.....BUT
bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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SiegeLord said:

And what makes you think that I care about what some ignoramus thinks? Just like with Specter Phoenix, calling people out on their stupidity never gets old. I'm not posting for your sake, as you are beyond hope, but for people who are not quite as dead set on being wrong, those who post here and those that don't. So they don't read your arguments from ignorance and somehow think that they are valid reasons to believe in god. The worst thing you can do with believers in god is let them speak unchallenged to the questioning.

Hear, hear!

Neil Roy said:

Anyhow, I think I'll pull out of this thread now.

It's a good thing you're not Catholic. :o IIRC, they frown on that! :D

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

SiegeLord said:

I think morals should come from philosophical and practical consideration,

Churches and non-religious governments are both equally likely to do this. Additionally, people naturally do it even if they try not to. People complain if the ethics are wrong, and most religious leaders can't help but respond to that. We're generally built to conform to crowd wisdom because it makes us stronger as a species.

Science is all about understanding things we observe, and using that understanding to make cool stuff happen. (For example, understanding electricity led to people making computers.) Some people take this further and see beauty in the various scientific theories kicking around, which is a nice touch. Many people take it further still and treat it as a religion. This can be healthy (for example if the beauty you see in science motivates you to live a good life), or it can be unhealthy (for example if you push members of other religions to define themselves the same way you do).

If someone's motivation in life comes from the God they know and trust, and they are using that motivation to study science and cure cancer, then destroying their motivation in life would be a shame, wouldn't it?

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Okay, I just HAD to reply to this. ;)

bamccaig said:

It's a good thing you're not Catholic. :o IIRC, they frown on that! :D

This shows you how much Catholics know and why I don't subscribe to their cult. The bible states it is perfectly fine to pull out, which obviously I have a hard time doing, this thread is so sexy after all. :D

---
“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Neil Roy said:

The bible states it is perfectly fine to pull out, which obviously I have a hard time doing, this thread is so sexy after all. :D

I would appreciate if you could find the verse(s). ;D

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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If someone's motivation in life comes from the God they know and trust, and they are using that motivation to study science and cure cancer, then destroying their motivation in life would be a shame, wouldn't it?

My old church in Winnipeg used to do things like hold charity dinners to raise money for cancer research (think I've mentioned that before). Religion financially supporting scientific research seems to blow people's minds more than it ought ...

Seriously though, something is either part of existence or not.

It's not a question of existence, it's a question of truth. Unsolved crimes, just to pull an example off the top of my head.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Yes a local community supporting cancer research is so mindblowing :P

What would be a bit surprising is say the pope or some other religion head coming out and agreeing with science on something. That said, it does happen. I think pope john paul II admitted he supported evolution. That was somewhat unexpected. But then he was also completely against birth control, and did his best to ignore pedophile priests. woot.

It's not a question of existence, it's a question of truth. Unsolved crimes, just to pull an example off the top of my head.

Of course its a question of existence. If something doesn't exist, "it existing" can't be true. Or said another way if something doesn't exist, it has no truth.

In your example, unsolved doesn't mean much. there was a crime, so it existed. the hard part is finding the evidence.

Science does NOT preclude a god, or gods from existing. So far there has been very little evidence to show one way or the other, so science itself can't really say much other than "it's unlikely" or (probably more accurate) "I don't know".

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
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Reading atheist arguments with Christmas decorations in their avatars makes this thread more confusing. :P

TranslatorHack 2010, a human translation chain in a.cc.
My games: [GiftCraft] - [Blocky Rhythm[SH2011]] - [Elven Revolution] - [Dune Smasher!]

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Here's the fun part, I'm not Athiest ;)

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Yes a local community supporting cancer research is so mindblowing :P

IKR?

Quote:

Of course its a question of existence. If something doesn't exist, "it existing" can't be true. Or said another way if something doesn't exist, it has no truth.

I have no idea how we got onto existence then. "It doesn't exist" can certainly be true, though.

Quote:

In your example, unsolved doesn't mean much. there was a crime, so it existed. the hard part is finding the evidence.

The point wasn't that the crime exists, it's that we don't know all the truth of it. Who did it, possibly their motivation or method, etc. Science can be applied to an extent, naturally, but if it's got nothing to work with, it's dead in the water.

Quote:

Science does NOT preclude a god, or gods from existing. So far there has been very little evidence to show one way or the other, so science itself can't really say much other than "it's unlikely" or (probably more accurate) "I don't know".

That's pretty much my stance, yup.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Dario ff
Member #10,065
August 2008
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Here's the fun part, I'm not Athiest

Ok that's one down. Here's hoping a.cc scans posts and just appends religions to the member tags to be able to skim these threads. :P

TranslatorHack 2010, a human translation chain in a.cc.
My games: [GiftCraft] - [Blocky Rhythm[SH2011]] - [Elven Revolution] - [Dune Smasher!]

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Dario ff said:

Reading atheist arguments with Christmas decorations in their avatars makes this thread more confusing. :P

Christmas has next to nothing to do with religion. It is predominantly a marketing tool to increase market activity via tradition and peer-pressure. Insert: Additionally it is a good opportunity to cheer your peers up and get together with friends and families before a long, dark, cold, depressing winter sinks its hooks in. The emphasis is on the first bit though.

The point wasn't that the crime exists, it's that we don't know all the truth of it. Who did it, possibly their motivation or method, etc. Science can be applied to an extent, naturally, but if it's got nothing to work with, it's dead in the water.

You're right, if no traceable evidence is left behind or found by investigators then science can't do much. Did you have an alternative strategy for solving said crime?

That's pretty much my stance, yup.

You're on the wrong side of the debate then. ::)

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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IKR?

?

Quote:

I have no idea how we got onto existence then. "It doesn't exist" can certainly be true, though.

Science does existence. It can't measure that which doesn't exist. If something does exist, science will find a way to measure it.

If science can never explain it, that means it never existed, and can't exist, and will never exist. Science evolves with itself, with what it learns. Should one day there be evidence for something it previously said was extremely unlikely, then it has to incorporate that into the current understanding. Anything less is akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la-la-la-la-la"[1].

Quote:

The point wasn't that the crime exists, it's that we don't know all the truth of it. Who did it, possibly their motivation or method, etc. Science can be applied to an extent, naturally, but if it's got nothing to work with, it's dead in the water.

Sure. But if there's truly no evidence what so ever, the most logical conclusion is that it didn't happen. But what "Truth" are you talking about here? That it happened? That necessitates there was some evidence that there was a crime, ie: that it happened, that it exists.

Dario ff said:

Ok that's one down.

Probably the closest label that describes my beliefs is agnostic.

I somewhat disagree with Wikipedia's "unknowable" bit though.

Quote:

Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown or unknowable.

References

  1. or saying "god did it"

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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bamccaig said:

You're right, if no traceable evidence is left behind or found by investigators then science can't do much. Did you have an alternative strategy for solving said crime?

I suppose that depends on the crime, but that's not the point. The point was that science is not some solve-all that applies to everything.

Sure. But if there's truly no evidence what so ever, the most logical conclusion is that it didn't happen. But what "Truth" are you talking about here? That it happened?

Not that it happened. What happened. I seriously don't know how we got onto existence here, but you and I are clearly not even talking about the same thing, and possibly never were.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Not that it happened. What happened. I seriously don't know how we got onto existence here, but you and I are clearly not even talking about the same thing, and possibly never were.

I dunno. It seemed like you were implying that god and other such things were unobservable, and untestable. That means it doesn't exist. Now if you were to say it is currently not testable, that's different. But given past posts you've made on this subject, I doubt that's something you'd admit.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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What does Xmas have to do with God or the bible? Last time I checked it came from the winter solstice celebration that ancient Roman sun worshipers took part in.

---
“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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It seemed like you were implying that god and other such things were unobservable, and untestable.

My comment was that the scientific method cannot always be applied to discovering the truth about something in all situations. This is completely divorced from religion, God, etc. Your own comment was roughly equivalent:

science itself can't really say much other than "it's unlikely" or (probably more accurate) "I don't know".

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I suppose that depends on the crime, but that's not the point. The point was that science is not some solve-all that applies to everything.

No, but it's the best we have, ever have had, and ever will have.

Science today can solve crimes that it couldn't 50 years ago. It's not that science can't do it. It's that it can't do it yet. Science is knowledge, and humanity's capacity for knowledge has no known bounds.

If it was left to religious minds then some "chosen one" would go into a dark, soundproof room, all by themselves, "ask God", and return with the definitive answer. The people would then subsequently take that as absolute truth and hang the fingered party. ... And the guilty part would go free.

You basically can't form any conclusions based on this "point" so I'm not sure why you're making it. A belief in God doesn't better equip you to solve crime, for example. It doesn't really do anything for you. At best, it allows yourself to be delusional, and at worst those delusions lead you to harm yourself or others. Seeking the real truth while simultaneously accepting that you don't have all the answers and maybe never will is the best that you can hope for. You don't need a delusional belief system to have morals, or feel good about yourself, to make friends, etc. It serves no practical purpose and has a lot of harmful side effects (and sometimes blatantly harmful effects).

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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My comment was that the scientific method cannot always be applied to discovering the truth about something in all situations. This is completely divorced from religion, God, etc.

I think you're misunderstanding the scientific method as a whole. Yes, specific tests may fail rather badly with insufficient information. (kinda like "OMG I Can't see it, thus it can't exist!" when talking about sub atomic particles)

In the grand scheme of things however, it will continue to evolve till we get our "meaning of life, the universe and everything", or at the very least, an approximation thereof.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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bamccaig said:

If it was left to religious minds then some "chosen one" would go into a dark, soundproof room, all by themselves, "ask God", and return with the definitive answer. The people would then subsequently take that as absolute truth and hang the fingered party. ... And the guilty part would go free.

Actually, according to the bible, you have to have at least two witnesses to a crime, and there are laws against bearing false witness. There were even cities that were set aside as safe havens for the accused until their guilt or innocence could be determined. It's not hocus pocus involving some chosen one.

---
“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Neil Roy said:

Actually, according to the bible, you have to have at least two witnesses to a crime, and there are laws against bearing false witness.

There's also a commandment.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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In the grand scheme of things however, it will continue to evolve till we get our "meaning of life, the universe and everything", or at the very least, an approximation thereof until we no longer have questions.

FTFY.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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meaning of life, the universe and everything

That's easy, 42! :D

---
“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
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Neil Roy said:

That's easy, 42!

I agree! The real bugger is knowing how to arrive at it! Deep thought .exe anyone??

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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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bamccaig said:

FTFY.

If you knew the answer to life, the universe and everything, just what possible questions could you have?

Neil Roy said:

That's easy, 42!

8-)

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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If you knew the answer to life, the universe and everything, just what possible questions could you have?

Touche. :-/ I originally read it as some ultimate designed purpose, which sounds religious and superstitious to me. :-X Append: That is, I don't believe there's a reason for our existence.



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