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Ok, so this MAY get trolled out of hand.....BUT
bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Evolution should have patented apes before it was too late. :( That's not a very nice thing to do, God. :-/ And he took all the credit!

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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... that. "If you post at all, you're an extremist" seems ... extreme.

Obviously that was a bit tongue in cheek. Just because you post in one of these threads doesn't make you an extremist. You may be more likely to be one however.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

weapon_S
Member #7,859
October 2006
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BigSir
Member #6,894
February 2006

Is that Riley Martin?

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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Neil Roy said:

I have examined my own beliefs intelligently, for the past 30 years in fact and I just cannot escape the fact that there has to be an all powerful being I label God that designed everything.

And you let other people examine your beliefs intelligently and they arrived at very different conclusions. What makes you right and them wrong?

Neil Roy said:

I feel the evidence of intelligent design can be seen by looking in the mirror, the brain for example and how incredibly complex it is, let alone the rest of the human body.

As a neuroscientist, I find this notion insulting. We will find out how the brain works, and there will be no god.

As for being extreme and inflexible... it's better to be extreme and inflexible and right than be extreme and inflexible and wrong. And the rightness of forcing people to provide tangible (and not "intelligent" self-introspection or personal communions) evidence and provide reproducible experimentation and provide predictions is evidenced by the absolutely incredible increase in the scientific understanding of essentially everything that we can observe and the corresponding technological advances.

What evidence is for not making tangible predictions (when you die? You must be joking), not providing tangible evidence being right? Some stress reduction is about the only one I can think of.

Maybe I'll learn that I was wrong when I die. I think I'll take the certainty of being right while I'm alive though.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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SiegeLord said:

We will find out how the brain works, and there will be no god.

You realize the one does not necessarily follow the other, of course ... these statements are basically unrelated.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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You realize the one does not necessarily follow the other, of course ... these statements are basically unrelated.

But then you'll know the mind of god :o

;)

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
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SiegeLord said:

As a neuroscientist

.... :o

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Please check out my songs:
https://soundcloud.com/dont-rob-the-machina

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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You realize the one does not necessarily follow the other, of course ... these statements are basically unrelated.

They are related to the extent Neil Roy thinks the brain's complexity requires a god. I meant that there will be no god in the brain.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

Trezker
Member #1,739
December 2001
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Neil Roy said:

intelligent design can be seen by looking in the mirror

Even if you have a face only a mother could love?

If our genes were constructed by an intelligent designer, why did he stop halfway?
We have endless genetic bugs that needs to be fixed.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

SiegeLord said:

What makes you right and them wrong?

The same thing that makes you right and me wrong. :)

Quote:

it's better to be extreme and inflexible and right than be extreme and inflexible and wrong.

My thoughts exactly. :)

Quote:

Maybe I'll learn that I was wrong when I die. I think I'll take the certainty of being right while I'm alive though.

My thoughts exactly. :)

Trezker said:

If our genes were constructed by an intelligent designer, why did he stop halfway?
We have endless genetic bugs that needs to be fixed.

You think they're bugs, perhaps you just haven't discovered what they are used for? To be honest though, I don't know anything about genetics, ask God. :)

---
“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Neil Roy said:

I don't know anything about genetics, ask God.

Ah, back to the old "God Did it" explanation.

Another option: Magic.

I dunno. But I think its lazy to immediately go for "God" when ever you don't personally understand something.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

_Kronk_
Member #12,347
November 2010

Trezker said:

If our genes were constructed by an intelligent designer, why did he stop halfway?
We have endless genetic bugs that needs to be fixed.

Arguing from a Judeo-Christian point of view, it can be said that the "genetic bugs" and mutations are the accumulated result of thousands of years of human reproduction; mutations occur and are passed on to progeny just like any other living thing.

Edit: that's assuming you were referring to harmful mutations, but just generally useless ones.

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"If only our dreams were fires to ignite, then we could let the whole world burn" -Emery

My blog: http://joshuadover.tumblr.com

Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
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I dunno. But I think its lazy to immediately go for "God" when ever you don't personally understand something.

Yeah that is interminable. But 'involving' some kind of 'God' wherein the word 'God' implies something way beyond anything we're even close to understanding, as an entity that may have had direct involvement on all that matter/energy expanding all of a sudden (and maybe being involved in it being there in the first place!) is, well, quite exciting, when you're single and high.

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https://soundcloud.com/dont-rob-the-machina

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I have absolutely no problem with people thinking about things and trying to understand the way of the universe.

Its those that use "God did it" to stop thinking that I don't agree with. Since its easier to say "God did it" than to think about things you don't understand.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
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Its those that use "God did it" to stop thinking that I don't agree with

I agree 100%, it's the theological equivalent of saying 'look over there' and running away.

'God moves in mysterious ways'.....I wish I could fecking use that every time I get asked something I daren't try to answer!

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Please check out my songs:
https://soundcloud.com/dont-rob-the-machina

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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SiegeLord said:

They are related to the extent Neil Roy thinks the brain's complexity requires a god.

Still not following, but I probably shouldn't jump into other people's conversations anyway. :P

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Hey Neil, welcome to the thread :)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

I say "ask God" because I am not a genetisist. And unlike most Atheists in here, I don't claim to know all the ins and outs of the universe. There is no way I am going to take a course in genetics just to answer a question in a forum that will only be argued endlessly anyhow.

When I say "ask God" it's because I don't know the answer, but I don't mean to imply God's waved a magic wand and used magic. I do feel that we can understand how it is all done given time, but I strongly feel that all the laws scientist discover that govern our lives (gravity, inertia etc...) were created by God.

I hope that someday I can fully understand how God did everything and in fact the bible states that after the return of Christ, all knowledge will become available to us, I look forward to that day because like you, I have a lot of questions.

Hey Neil, welcome to the thread :)

Yeah, I do get easily sucked into these types of threads, but I enjoy the conversation so long as it doesn't get insulting or too sarcastic. I respect people's point of views and understand a little how they have a hard time believing in a creator. I'm being VERY careful what I say though as I know what types of replies certain comments/opinions from me will spark. ;)

Still not following, but I probably shouldn't jump into other people's conversations anyway. :P

PLEASE, feel free to jump in, take over even! :D

---
“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Neil Roy said:

I look forward to that day because like you, I have a lot of questions.

But why? If God did it, you have all the answers you need.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Neil Roy said:

I'm being VERY careful what I say though as I know what types of replies certain comments/opinions from me will spark. ;)

I was quite surprised how aggressive SiegeLord was :P

My view is that most religious people treat religion as a personal choice, they don't push it on other people, they are smart enough not to allow their religion to screw them over (do you notice how most religious people are not Scientologists?), and they do not have an issue with science. I don't see a problem.

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

I never push my beliefs on anyone. I also don't walk around with a permanent smile etched on my face like some I have seen. ;) I do joke around a lot, but that's different. I like to drink once in a while etc... in other words, if I didn't tell you my beliefs, you wouldn't be able to guess them.

You definitely cannot push your beliefs on anyone. Unless they are interested in learning for their own reasons it is pointless I think.

Nobody pushed it onto me, I had a series of events happen in my life, I won't go into detail about them, but I ended up in a jail cell and the only book I was allowed to read was a bible. So I started reading it and that was basically the start of me thinking about the subject.

---
“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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My view is that most religious people treat religion as a personal choice, they don't push it on other people, they are smart enough not to allow their religion to screw them over (do you notice how most religious people are not Scientologists?), and they do not have an issue with science. I don't see a problem.

Your view is compromised. :-/ Maybe there's a tree blocking North America...

Neil Roy said:

...I ended up in a jail cell and the only book I was allowed to read was a bible. So I started reading it and that was basically the start of me thinking about the subject.

Too bad they didn't give you a science journal. :(

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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I was quite surprised how aggressive SiegeLord was :P

The brain comment struck a nerve. It's ridiculous to have people use something that scientists using the scientific method (an antithesis to religion) have spent so much effort and have had so much success in understanding be used as an argument for an intelligent creator.

Quote:

My view is that most religious people treat religion as a personal choice

Something being a personal choice does not make something immune from being right and wrong. You can make a personal choice not to believe in evolution, but you are still wrong. You can make a personal choice not to believe in gravity, but you are still wrong.

It boggles the mind to think that atheism and religion are somehow on equal standing as far as what to believe, that it's somehow an opinion to follow one or the other, and opinion that cannot be criticized because it's an opinion! It's like me resenting my math teachers for pushing their beliefs that 2+2=4 onto me!

Neil Roy said:

I strongly feel that all the laws scientist discover that govern our lives (gravity, inertia etc...) were created by God.

That's an okay belief, but it doesn't imply anything about morality, or the verity of contents of the Bible or existence of life after death. What does the mathematical form of general relativity and the details of quantum mechanics tell you about what happens when you die?

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

SiegeLord, I don't give a rats a$$ what you think. I would have thought you could have figured that out by now, seeing as how you're so smart. :)

---
“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein



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