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Ok, so this MAY get trolled out of hand.....BUT
23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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SiegeLord said:

It's ridiculous to have people use something that scientists using the scientific method (an antithesis to religion) have spent so much effort and have had so much success in understanding be used as an argument for an intelligent creator.

Still not getting why "understanding" is at odds with "creation". Does this mean that you would expect creation to warrant understanding impossible?

(I don't necessarily agree with either of you, mind ...)

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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Neil Roy said:

SiegeLord, I don't give a rats a$$ what you think. I would have thought you could have figured that out by now, seeing as how you're so smart. :)

And what makes you think that I care about what some ignoramus thinks? Just like with Specter Phoenix, calling people out on their stupidity never gets old. I'm not posting for your sake, as you are beyond hope, but for people who are not quite as dead set on being wrong, those who post here and those that don't. So they don't read your arguments from ignorance and somehow think that they are valid reasons to believe in god. The worst thing you can do with believers in god is let them speak unchallenged to the questioning.

Still not getting why "understanding" is at odds with "creation".

Because complete understanding will establish the evolutionary link between the brains of insects, fish and mammals (including humans). The "creation" will, as with everything else, will be pushed back to 14 billion years ago.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

(I don't necessarily agree with either of you, mind ...)

You see, this is the kind of statement I can respect. It's the "I am right and you are wrong!" statements or the sarcastic "God did it all" statements that I tend to ignore (or try to ;)).

---
“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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SiegeLord said:

Because complete understanding will establish the evolutionary link between the brains of insects, fish and mammals (including humans). The "creation" will, as with everything else, will be pushed back to 14 billion years ago.

I didn't see this mentioned by Neil, so someone should probably ask him if he doesn't already believe that ...

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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Neil Roy said:

I am right and you are wrong!

And again, as somehow being right and wrong about this question is equally likely.

I didn't see this mentioned by Neil, so someone should probably ask him if he doesn't already believe that ...

Hold on... is the argument going to be something like "God created the laws of the universe such that, through evolution etc, humans would obtain brains such as ours."?

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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SiegeLord said:

Hold on... is the argument going to be something like "God created the laws of the universe such that, through evolution etc, humans would obtain brains such as ours."?

I have no idea; it's your argument. But if you don't know what you're arguing againt, that might explain why I've been reading your arguments as a bit nonsensical ...

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Maybe by "brains such as ours", Siegelord meant the emotional matrix that prompts humans to imagine there's some sort of god watching over them. After all, we've had thousands of gods!

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

I didn't see this mentioned by Neil, so someone should probably ask him if he doesn't already believe that ...

You're right, he didn't mention it, and no, they shouldn't ask him because he won't say. :)

I really should learn to take a page from Trent's book and just hide these threads as soon as I see one. :D

---
“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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I have no idea; it's your argument.

How is it my argument? I'm responding to your pulling Neil's thoughts out of your behind, trying to make his original argument be more unassailable. The original argument I am arguing against is this:

Neil Roy said:

I feel the evidence of intelligent design can be seen by looking in the mirror, the brain for example and how incredibly complex it is, let alone the rest of the human body.

Clearly, the argument is that the complexity of the brain is evidence for a creator. I don't see what's hard to understand about this argument. The argument is wrong, as the complexity of the brain is a consequence of evolutionary pressures and conserved building blocks that are shared amongst many animals.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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An Altair 8800 can't comprehend itself either, so what's the point here?

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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SiegeLord said:

How is it my argument?

You're in it.

Quote:

I'm responding to your pulling Neil's thoughts out of your behind, trying to make his original argument be more unassailable.

I'm arguing that you don't know his thoughts, and I thought I was pretty clear that I don't know them either. Which thoughts of his were extracted from my behind, exactly?

Quote:

Clearly, the argument is that the complexity of the brain is evidence for a creator. I don't see what's hard to understand about this argument.

And I don't see what "It's ridiculous to have people use something that scientists using the scientific method ... have spent so much effort and have had so much success in understanding be used as an argument for an intelligent creator" has to do with it. Unless you make some broad assumptions about something Neil already pointed out he didn't (and apparently won't) say, in which I'll chalk this up to a strawman and drop it.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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And I don't see what "It's ridiculous to have people use something that scientists using the scientific method ... have spent so much effort and have had so much success in understanding be used as an argument for an intelligent creator" has to do with it.

That's just the justification for my tone, it has nothing to do with the argument itself.

The fact that we understand that the brain's complexity arose from evolutionary pressures is the argument against that complexity being evidence for a creator.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

The reason why I won't bring up my opinion is because I've done this before and it is pointless. Nothing I can say will convince anyone else that my beliefs are valid and nothing they can say will convince me that there is no God and that science has all the answers.

The verse in my signature at the bottom of this message is there to remind me not to get into the dirty details and pointless arguments. If you want to call it some sort of strawman, have at it. If you think anything I say will convince someone like "SiegeLord" that my opinions are valid, you're more delusional than he thinks I am. ;)

---
“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Neil Roy said:

science has all the answers

Who said that? The investigations of science wouldn't be necessary if we had all the answers. OTOH, the religious viewpoint of "God did it" (it's magic) isn't very satisfying to somebody who wonders how it all works.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

Funny thing is, the phrase "God did it" has never been used by me.

Edit: Anyhow, I think I'll pull out of this thread now. It's been fun. :)

---
“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Neil Roy said:

Funny thing is, the phrase "God did it" has never been used by me.

Neil Roy said:

I feel the evidence of intelligent design can be seen by looking in the mirror, the brain for example and how incredibly complex it is, let alone the rest of the human body.

Neil Roy said:

My usual response is that I do not believe in God at all. I know He exists.

Neil Roy said:

I have examined my own beliefs intelligently, for the past 30 years in fact and I just cannot escape the fact that there has to be an all powerful being I label God that designed everything.

Neil Roy said:

I hope that someday I can fully understand how God did everything and in fact the bible states that after the return of Christ, all knowledge will become available to us, I look forward to that day because like you, I have a lot of questions.

Don't those imply the same thing?

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Neil Roy said:

Funny thing is, the phrase "God did it" has never been used by me.

Directly ;)

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

SiegeLord said:

the scientific method (an antithesis to religion)

No, it's not. Religion is all about having something nice to believe in, to give you strength when you need it, a role model, a sense of belonging, things like that. It's not about literally how the universe was actually made. It doesn't interfere with scientific method in any way.

I won't even bother to read anything after that, until that point is understood. Not enough time in the day :P

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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No, it's not. Religion is all about having something nice to believe in, to give you strength when you need it, a role model, a sense of belonging, things like that. It's not about literally how the universe was actually made. It doesn't interfere with scientific method in any way.

Maybe to you. But to many people who are devout in their beliefs, what you just said is probably very insulting.

They've fought wars just based on which day god rested.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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Religion is all about having something nice to believe in

Why not believe something that's actually true?

Quote:

to give you strength when you need it, a role model, a sense of belonging, things like that. It's not about literally how the universe was actually made.

Those things are in principle fine, but people (it seems) insist on them (the role model bit is especially a big offender here) because there's authority in the Bible that is invested in it by virtue of god doing supernatural things. Like they say that doing X is good, but doing Y is bad and then go "because that's what's written in the Bible". There are some good things in the Bible (haven't found them myself, though, but I'm told there are good things in it), but there are also plenty of bad things too. It seems odd to follow some things in it and not others while at the same time using the Bible's authority to justify one's morals.

I think morals should come from philosophical and practical consideration, not because of their accidental inclusion into some ancient cult's storybook. You can have a sense of belonging, role models etc without religion too. I've just been to a scientific conference with lots of smart people who chatted and joked and had fun etc etc while being brought together by a common quest for knowledge, and not some ancient book.

I'll repeat the beginning of my post: Why not believe something that's actually true? The scientific method is awesome at discovering truth about the world, and scientific pursuit is an incredibly social activity. You can have so much fun doing science... why do you need religion?

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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SiegeLord said:

I've just been to a scientific conference with lots of smart people ... brought together by a common quest for knowledge, and not some ancient book.

vs the sig

Quote:

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18

The irony never fails to humor me.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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SiegeLord said:

The fact that we understand that the brain's complexity arose from evolutionary pressures is the argument against that complexity being evidence for a creator.

Hmmm. I think I've heard enough to satisfy my curiousity (and clarify something I seem to have not been understanding), so I'll drop it. For what it's worth, I kind of agree and kind of disagree with both of you. :)

SiegeLord said:

Why not believe something that's actually true?

Fail troll is fail.

Quote:

The scientific method is awesome at discovering truth about the world

The nature of the world, maybe ...

Quote:

why do you need religion

I see this very odd attitude pop up every now and then, usually from the science department. When was a "need" implied?

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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The nature of the world, maybe ...

Which means "the everything of"... so what's your point here?

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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No, it doesn't. For anything you can't observe, measure, experiment on, repeat, or otherwise apply a scientific technique to, science is (unsurprisingly) shit.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

No, it doesn't. For anything you can't observe, measure, experiment on, repeat, or otherwise apply a scientific technique to, science is (unsurprisingly) shit.

You mean if it exists or not? ;)

Seriously though, something is either part of existence or not. If it is, science has a good chance of actually getting an answer to it. If something doesn't exists then science can never come close to it.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730



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