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A question to all the married men
Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

Neil Roy said:

Have you ever considered the idea that perhaps you are the one who is being deceived by some of these websites and videos you watch?

Not entirely unlikely, but "cui bono?".

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Quote:

Derenzo[sic], you assume a lot about me and why I vote [Conservative]. I actually used to vote Liberal

Makes sense -- same shit, different pile.

Politics does get me worked up, because I feel so powerless to stop it. I don't have a giant corporation to campaign my causes with, and these are extremely delicate situations. I have my own shit to deal with. The sad truth is that so few people think for themselves, and I wasn't aware of this growing up... but why would they when they don't have to? They just turn on the tele-vision, or pick up a newspaper or magazine, and have it think for them. >:( I'm very different because I need to hear the words from the horses mouth.

Neil Roy said:

Have you ever considered the idea that perhaps you are the one who is being deceived by some of these websites and videos you watch?

Indeed. Actually, I seeked out professional help because I was worried I might be psychotic. I was obsessed with this stuff for over a year. Religion, politics, war, consumerism, brainwashing and mind control, drugs, video games, social problems, etc. I posted less here during that time and watched way too many independent films that were provided free of charge by people who only want to bring their views into public consciousness so that they can try to solve problems that had deeply affected their lives. I saw a clear distinction between the stuff with a hidden agenda and the stuff that is asking for help with an agenda. Often the people who start the good ones are impacted by a horrible tragedy that drives them to finding answers, like losing their children or family. Many lost family, friends, and relatives in the WTC incident and couldn't handle the absurdity of the news reports.

That isn't to say that any of the information I've viewed is perfect. Quite the contrary. The 80/20 rule applies to all things universally. 80% of everything is horse crap, 20% is useful.

I've been to several therapists, psychologists and doctors. I seriously thought I was going insane. Much to my dismay, there's nothing wrong with me. I am a just your everyday lateral thinker who questions everything he sees. :-/

The videos I use as support are typically from a series of interviews with politicians and other members of government where they ask "Questions" and receive "Answers". I also watch parliament from time to time. It is entertaining to me at the same time that it is informative -- like the part where the student fresh out of high school asks Paul Martin where money comes from and he spins around in his chair was hilarious but also represents a real problem. That asshat was our finance minister, dammit! >:(
Then he eventually answers, but gets the answer completely wrong!!! >:( >:(

You're free and well to take a peak at the world around you. The Internet is loaded with people who actually want to change things, and have organized information in a way that can be easily verified by using the government websites themselves and documents released through freedom of information. These are real, live people being asked real, difficult questions.

What bothers me about you is that you consider your beliefs to be fact, and this causes you not to believe in actual facts that are contrary to your preconceptions. In short: I think you lie to yourself.

The only TV I watch is the TV at my parents... and all the while I go on and on about how awful it is that they let those people into their homes through that box and tell them the things they tell them. It has seriously affected my family life, and I often imagine doing outrageous things -- like showing up with a sledge hammer.

It's so difficult to understand without a serious investment of your time. More recently I've been thinking that none of this really matters, because it's too late for the masses anyway.

I'm nothing special, and I'm a far cry from perfect. I'm just a bit different. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with anyone being closed minded or insecure, but just because it isn't wrong doesn't mean it isn't there. I would say that the opinion of a closed minded person is of little value to anyone but the interests he has closed himself off with. I also speak very generally when there is no subjective matter at stake.... and sometimes edit my posts profusely.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
avatar

I have viewed many of these videos, and I think most people with a brain can agree that something more happened with the WTC attacks, it seems obvious to me anyhow that a controlled demolition took place, and we have heard more from people with pretty good credentials that agree. There was a joke going around Las Vegas I recall from a friend that lived there, when they demolished one of the Casinos people were saying, as they watched it fall: "Looks like a plane hit it".

I don't believe all the really wild ideas that some have proposed, but some things you just can't get around like the WTC demolition. Who was involved we may never find out. The truth I think is somewhere between the radical website videos and conspiracy theorists and government explanations.

I have friends that were overly obsessed with this type of thing, I finally had to remove them from my Facebook because it's ALL you see them talk about. So I think people need to be careful about these things. Not ALL government officials are corrupt, they're not perfect and I wouldn't use mistakes they may make as proof of corruption. I figure you just have to weigh all the evidence you can find from ALL sources (don't limit yourself to just one type) and then see what happens. Watch what the various parties actually do and see if it matches your philosophy on how the country should be run and then go that route, whether it be Liberal, Conservative, NDP or independent... I don't try and sway people's opinions (part of the reason I removed my conservative avatar, I realized I might come off as trying to provoke people). I think everyone should vote, and vote for what they want. Leave hatred out of it and vote on policies, using past experience as a guide to see if they follow through and have a good chance at achieving what you want. I think our country (no matter where you live) would be better off if everyone voted that way and left gut reactions and hatred out of the equation.

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Politics, Meh. You get to choose between a giant douche and a turd sandwich.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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There's a reason people hate office politics. It's because it never works for the better of anything. It's politics. It's a waste of money and a waste of time. Government politics are the same thing. Think about it; you vote for a party or a party leader. You're not voting for how you want the country run. You're voting for the group of people that most closely matches your ideals, at least according to what they tell you when the cameras are on. It's fucking ridiculous. That sort of system will never work and I'm amazed that people accept it at all.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
avatar

That sort of system has and does work. if the party you voted for doesn't do as promised, you vote them out of office, and that has been done time and time again.

It's the people who DON'T vote that are the problem...

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

Neil Roy said:

That sort of system has and does work. if the party you voted for doesn't do as promised, you vote them out of office, and that has been done time and time again.

You know, except that it keeps getting us crap leaders. The same idiots time and time again.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
avatar

Perhaps when people start actually THINKING and voting for the right people, for the right reasons (other than what you can GET from them if you give them your vote) than maybe things would improve.

Unfortunately people keep voting for whomever promises to give them the most.

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

Sadly that's not going to happen any time soon. It might if the next few govt's are equally as retarded as the last few. Eventually people should get fed up with the shenanigans that have been played. Or so I hope.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
avatar

Neil Roy said:

I don't try and sway people's opinions (part of the reason I removed my conservative avatar, I realized I might come off as trying to provoke people)

It did get me very fired up, and it felt like a continuation of the earlier quarrel in this thread.

Neil Roy said:

Perhaps when people start actually THINKING and voting for the right people

The majority don't think, and I think it's important for those who are capable of thinking to think for them and gear them in a better direction. :)
Otherwise they will just listen to the next suggestion they hear that supports their beliefs, which they often adopt without thinking.

The power of suggestion is so incredible. When people don't think, that's all you need to do to set a spark of change in their actions. Suggest it. It's not always easy to get them on the right path, but sometimes a series of small things can push them in the right direction.

When I was at a friend's place a few weeks ago, they started talking about oxycontin. That's another subject that gets me really fired up, and I started bashing it's use right away. I started saying that people who use it become junkies and compared the people who sell it to heroine dealers and slave traders. I was quick to defend the users (because they know not what they do), and began saying that the pharma companies who make it should be sued. They know it is a sort of "pseudo-heroine" and they have scientifically engineered it as such (which, according to wikipedia, I later found out there is a class action lawsuit in D.C. for over $5 billion, which I hope is successful), for the purpose of making as much money as possible.

A guy who was there spoke up with a quiver in his voice and said "Stop! I can't help it!". I calmed down a little and felt an ounce of guilt creep into my throat, because I didn't realize he was a user and he had been behind me the whole while. I was only there to fix the computer, heh.

I later found out that what I had been describing had actually happened to him. He lost his house, his family, many friends, legal problems, and was on the verge of losing his job. He had been taking 20mg tablets every ~2 hours for years.

Two days later I was told the guy was really bothered by what I said, and quit them that same day and hadn't touched them since. Now, I haven't been keeping up, and I know the withdrawal from it is insane, but you can imagine how influence like that can snowball.

Sometimes I mean to offend people, but I do it with the best of intentions. I'm not always right, and many of my ideas are very radical or appear fundamentalist, but I believe that anyone can make a major impact in changing the world by spreading the right ideas.

Neil Roy said:

I finally had to remove them from my Facebook because it's ALL you see them talk about.

I was like that for that period of discovery. 2012 and WTC every day. Not so much anymore, but it still trickles through.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
avatar

The whole voting thing has a number of flaws:

  • Once you're voted in, you can screw up considerably before any consequences show

  • Politicians are also participants in the society they govern, and they have their own interests, goals and needs, which inevitably produces conflicts

  • People are way too lazy to get themselves informed properly, so they vote based on PR rather than actual qualifications

  • Being a politician is hard, under-paid work. Those with the skills to do it often choose jobs that pay them more; those with the best ideals and ideas often do not have what it takes to grab the power and hold on to it

  • A representative democracy favours least-common-denominator majorities, while democracy should rather be about finding consensus among a diverse group of minorities

---
Me make music: Triofobie
---
"We need Tobias and his awesome trombone, too." - Johan Halmén

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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Being a politician is hard, under-paid work. Those with the skills to do it often choose jobs that pay them more; those with the best ideals and ideas often do not have what it takes to grab the power and hold on to it

Hah! Around here, politician is probably the cushiest job you can get. Two terms in parliament, and you're overpaid for life!
And, in case you're wondering, that does nothing to improve the quality of governance.

--
Move to the Democratic People's Republic of Vivendi Universal (formerly known as Sweden) - officially democracy- and privacy-free since 2008-06-18!

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

Neil Roy said:

That sort of system has and does work.

Define "work". Dictatorships and monarchies have "worked" too. The problem with people is that they're very short sighted. If they have money and jobs and houses and cars and nobody standing on their toes then they figure the country is doing great and all is well. Government actions have long term consequences. It's easy to make things look good now so everybody thinks the government is doing good and votes them in again. It isn't until years later that the actual shit hits the fan and whoever is in office then has to try to resolve it. I certainly wouldn't claim to know what is going on in government, or what direct or indirect consequences their actions have. It's a very complicated system. You can't know unless you make it your life's work to study it (if then). That even assumes you know everything the government does (and you don't).

Neil Roy said:

if the party you voted for doesn't do as promised, you vote them out of office, and that has been done time and time again.

You vote them out after they've already done it. They've already been paid off, and the corporations are already profiting, and the citizens are already struggling. It's too late by then. You vote the first guys out and the next guys do the same fucking thing. ::)

Neil Roy said:

It's the people who DON'T vote that are the problem...

I think the system is the problem, but the people that believe their pen marks every couple of years do any good aren't helping.

Neil Roy said:

Perhaps when people start actually THINKING and voting for the right people, for the right reasons (other than what you can GET from them if you give them your vote) than maybe things would improve.

Unfortunately people keep voting for whomever promises to give them the most.

Please explain to me what criteria made you vote for Harper (and/or) support him? IIRC, I voted for him too, but not because of any known qualification. Mostly because I watched the (only) televised meeting/debate and Harper seemed like the most competent person. The rest seemed to be deceptive and/or incompetent.

That's not completely true. I actually think the Green Party leader seemed more intelligent and genuine, but she also came across as quiet and shy. Perhaps inexperienced. To be honest, I don't even remember the Green Party being an option when I voted... :-/

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
avatar

Honestly, no, I am not going to explain why it is I vote for Mr. Harper. Only that I do vote for him, I don't do it blindly and without thought. The exact thought processes that lead me to believe the conservatives are the best ones for the job I'll keep private. I've been attacked enough thanks. ;)

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
avatar

Conservatives are the Christian De facto. They're supportive of the church and are against things like gay marriage.

bamccaig said:

I actually think the Green Party leader seemed more intelligent and genuine, but she also came across as quiet and shy. Perhaps inexperienced. To be honest, I don't even remember the Green Party being an option when I voted.

I agree with a lot of what she says, but there are some things with the green party that I'm very uncertain of, and their website doesn't really have a strong focus on the policy changes I would like to see.

I don't think there is a party in the available selection that is worse than the conservatives, though.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
avatar

Derezo said:

I don't think there is a party in the available selection that is worse than the conservatives, though.

Just for that, I'm putting my logo back up. :)

Do you seriously believe the Liberals and NDP would be a better choice? Wow...

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
avatar

Neil Roy said:

Just for that, I'm putting my logo back up.

No biggie, I revoked your avatar privileges. Feel good about yourself and your illness.

Quote:

Do you seriously believe the Liberals and NDP would be a better choice?

I think they are equally as poor of a choice, but I certainly don't believe anything about any of those parties. Why would anyone support their policies? Have you read them it? Have you read the policies of other parties to compare and contrast? There's a little more meat and potatoes there, as opposed to... uhh.. I don't even know what that policy is that they're presenting. Something about a "Harper"? What's that, some sort of instrument? Sounds like it might describe one who harps on and on, like that harping jerk in office.

An elementary school student could develop a more articulated, well crafted set of government policies that would put these 3 parties to shame. They are tele-vision personalities and nothing more. The first articles on their website involve a "competing" party leader. I've yet to find a party outside of the big three that uses these types of techniques to gain votes.

Is there actually anything good about your party? You've never mentioned anything they do or support that is positive, and they don't mention anything on their website. I have a feeling you just enjoy opposing things. Nothing wrong with that, but it certainly doesn't make your party (which recently lost control of the house in a non-confidence vote) look any more competent... and it doesn't make you look intelligent or any less narrow minded than your previous communication.

Neil Roy said:

The exact thought processes that lead me to believe the conservatives are the best ones for the job I'll keep private.

It must be pretty embarrassing. :-[

Of course, I am a wiser than my years, and I can see you share their desire to "believe" in things.
{"name":"603767","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/1\/2\/12e03b013e9c78618796743bf7318450.gif","w":1313,"h":975,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/1\/2\/12e03b013e9c78618796743bf7318450"}603767

I suspect your party is using "make-believe". Please reconsider the function of the magnificent imagination that the source of your existence has blessed you with.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
avatar

As you can see, I haven't said a word as to why I vote for them and already you're slinging insults. It's a good thing I didn't say anything. I'll end this conversation with you now I think. I've said nothing to insult you or deserve your attacks. Added you to my ignore list. If that even works.

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
avatar

;D

I'm curious about which part you find insulting, but you show that the conservative party has absolutely no honour to defend.

If the other supporters are so daft, this battle should be easy.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
avatar

Geez Derezo, give it a rest already. Neil already said why he supports the Conservative Party. So you disagree with him, great, who cares. It's not like you've come up with any better options. 'Support minority parties!' That will never work, it's like voting for the Green Party in the US, it's a total waste of time because the majority of people vote Democrat/Republican so you might as well pick which of the two you find less distasteful or run for office yourself.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
avatar

Neil already said why he supports the Conservative Party.

Oh. I guess I just can't find it. I do recall him explicitly refusing to do so, though (and reiterating that point).

I don't follow your line of reasoning, but let me make sure I understand you:

Quote:

'Support minority parties!' That will never work, it's like voting for the Green Party in the US, it's a total waste of time

In this statement, you are telling me that voting against the parties I don't want to win creates an impossibility that the parties I don't want to win will lose?

Quote:

you might as well pick which of the two you find less distasteful

Here you are telling me that a better solution is to vote for a party that I do not want to win, so that .. wait...

How do you mean?
From my understanding, all you're saying is that you believe voting is pointless. Good for you?

Politics in Canada do not work like they work in your country.

http://www.freedomparty.ca/htm/en/home.htm said:

Every year, FPC will receive $1.75 per vote (indexed for inflation) it receives in the most recent general election (provided it obtains at least 2% of the vote: approximately 904 votes per riding). That is approximately $487,518.23 per year. Assuming one election every 4 years, that's at least $1,950,072.90 of party funding per election.

Of course, Freedom Party of Canada opposes the inflation-indexed $1.75 per vote subsidy to political parties, and we have campaigned against it (and will continue to do so). However, so long as the Conservatives, Liberals, NDP, and Bloc Quebecois parties will be using the subsidy to compete against Freedom Party of Canada in federal elections, we will play by the rules rather than voluntarily tying one hand behind our own back.

You ask questions, I give answers. I ask questions, you give questions. Don't think that I don't already know this is a one-sided argument, but I am not wrong. None of my points have been disputed. This thread had gotten me very excited about politics.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
avatar

Derezo said:

Oh. I guess I just can't find it. I do recall him explicitly refusing to do so, though.

Well let me point it out for you : (click the little blue link ;))

Neil Roy said:

There's a variety of reasons why I vote conservative. I'm against socialism, I feel it destroys a country. Supporting businesses and corporations helps create jobs, which gets people off the social system, gives them a little self respect and lowers taxes. The less people on the social system, the lower the taxes, the better everyone does. Higher social spending leads to higher taxes which leads to a greater need for social spending, it's a vicious loop.

Derezo said:

In this statement, you are telling me that voting against the party I don't want to win creates an impossibility that the party I don't want to win will lose?

No, I'm telling you if there are two parties that always receive at least 40% of the votes each, then there is no point voting for a party other than those two. One of the two majority parties will always win, so you might as well vote for the majority party you dislike the least.

Derezo said:

From my understanding, all you're saying is that you believe voting is pointless. Good for you?

No, voting for a minority party that will never win is pointless. Try not reading your own meaning into my statements, thanks.

Derezo said:

Don't think that I don't already know this is a one-sided argument, but I am not wrong.

Well, I've already proved you wrong three times in this post alone, but feel free to continue to feel superior when you twist the meaning of other peoples statements.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
avatar

Derezo said:

Politics in Canada do not work like they work in your country.

There are similar benefits in the USA. Parties that hit a certain percentage qualify for the right to appear on the ballots, etc. Details probably vary from state to state.

But even if there were no benefit, I would still vote for the person I think is best. I'm not voting for who I think will win.

The first and second choices need to be scared that the super minorities will receive enough votes to affect the election. That's the only way to get them to reach out to those groups given a most-votes-win election.

Ignore Edgar, because he is wrong.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
avatar

I'm telling you if there are two parties that always receive at least 40% of the votes each, then there is no point voting for a party other than those two.

Oh, I didn't even see anything about percentages in your posts. In any case, you're wrong. I proved that wrong in my previous post. Each vote gives the party you vote for subsidized political revenue. To be precise, it is $1.75 per voter.

There is at least one point, so "there is no point" is flat out incorrect.

Quote:

No, voting for a minority party that will never win is pointless.

Please see previous statement.

[edit]

I would still vote for the person I think is best.

You're a MAD MAN! :o

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
avatar

Derezo said:

Oh, I didn't even see anything about percentages in your posts.

His percentages are bogus anyway. Going by that you should never vote unless there is a possibility that the margin of victory will be exactly one. Otherwise your vote is irrelevant.

Think about that.



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