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RapeLay
ReyBrujo
Moderator
January 2001
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Let's see how many are willing to discuss this ;)

RapeLay is a game about raping young girls. The game is old, and had a few controversies (like Amazon removing it from their listing). I read today that one of the provinces in Argentina is going to try to ban the sale of the game. Of course, the irony is that the game itself will never be distributed (legally) down here. The argument is the one you expect: the game encourages people to go out and rape girls.

In most gaming forums the discussion is similar: if you allow killing (either by necessity like in Call of Duty or any other war game, or pleasure like Grand Theft Auto or any other sandbox game), if you allow drugs (dealing like in Dope Wars, or Grand Theft Auto, or consuming like in Haze), if you allow racism or even insinuate raping (the latest case is Resident Evil 5, where a gang of black men zombies kidnap and rape a white girl), why not rape itself? Surely, someone who wants to do what the game does has serious problems that will arise not only in a game, but reading a book or watching a movie, just like those people who invoke GTA when explaining why they ran over policemen.

What about you?

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RB
光子「あたしただ…奪う側に回ろうと思っただけよ」
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Kibiz0r
Member #6,203
September 2005
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ReyBrujo said:

What about you?

Where can I get it?

scythe
Member #10,723
February 2009
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pretty sick if you ask me, but nobodys going to effectively stop it. people can sneak media anywhere they want to anymore.

ReyBrujo
Moderator
January 2001
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The discussion is not whether you can stop that or not, it is a matter of where should be the limit. Who decides that killing someone in a game is right but raping someone is wrong (besides Fox News)?

--
RB
光子「あたしただ…奪う側に回ろうと思っただけよ」
Mitsuko's last words, Battle Royale

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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ReyBrujo said:

if you allow killing (either by necessity like in Call of Duty or any other war game, or pleasure like Grand Theft Auto or any other sandbox game), if you allow drugs (dealing like in Dope Wars, or Grand Theft Auto, or consuming like in Haze), if you allow racism or even insinuate raping (the latest case is Resident Evil 5, where a gang of black men zombies kidnap and rape a white girl), why not rape itself?

This is an extremely difficult question, with no real answer. Different people have different moralities, which is why each of the games you mention are avaialable in some places, but not others, and why there exist groups who are trying to get all of them banned.

The real question should be does this game increase the number of rapes inflicted. For myself personally, I can't see how someone would rape someone purely because they've seen a game where people can be raped. There has to be some underlying psychological condition. So I guess the question should be - will someone with such an underlying condition go on to rape someone whether or not they play this game. Can such a question be answered? Probably not.

The other issue this game seems to have brough up is freedom of expression. I've read some discussion of this game where proponents of it seem to think that freedom of expression gives them the right to do whatever they please. Obviously this is not the case. Freedom of expression does not give you the right to murder people and call it an art form. It doesn't even give you the right to say whatever you want, hence why there are libel and slander laws. So where does the boundary of freedom of expression lie? The only answer in today's societies is in the courts, and it is they, not we, who deem whether these games get played or banned.

And my own personal opinion on anyone whoever wrote the game - lock them up and let them get raped nonstop for several weeks by serial rapists, then see if they want to then write a sequel.

edit:

ReyBrujo said:

The discussion is not whether you can stop that or not, it is a matter of where should be the limit

The closest thing I can come up with for a logical reason why games with killing should be allowed but not games with rape is that rape is a far more common crime, and that it takes more to drive someone to kill than rape. It's a fairly weak argument though.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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ReyBrujo said:

if you allow killing (either by necessity like in Call of Duty or any other war game, or pleasure like Grand Theft Auto or any other sandbox game), if you allow drugs (dealing like in Dope Wars, or Grand Theft Auto, or consuming like in Haze), if you allow racism or even insinuate raping (the latest case is Resident Evil 5, where a gang of black men zombies kidnap and rape a white girl), why not rape itself?

Can't say any of those games ever really appealed to me anyway, so ...

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Step 2. Pray.

ReyBrujo
Moderator
January 2001
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Well, I doubt the programmers are maniacs, they just fill a gap in the market ;) Let's put it this way: there is a regulator (ESBR, PEGI, Cero, etc) that reviews and classifies the game. In this case, Adults Only. The retailers are forbidden to sell games to the wrong audience. They don't promote AO games, so you need to know about the game and be adult to buy it. Then you, as the consumer, know that an AO game should be played by a minor.

Why we need the government (for example) needs to put itself in the middle, when there is already an organization that is in charge of determining what is right and what is not acceptable for the audience?

This is dismissing the fact that they have likely never studied the consequences of such a game in the audience, and even if they had done so, there is no way they can verify the claims (which will likely be like violence studies, that never reach a solid conclusion).

--
RB
光子「あたしただ…奪う側に回ろうと思っただけよ」
Mitsuko's last words, Battle Royale

alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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Dumb. There's no point in banning it; anyone who would conceivably be induced to rape someone by this game is going to either get the idea from books/movies instead, or learn about the game from all the publicity generated by banning it ( :P) and get it illegaly.

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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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The only logical difference I see between a rape game and a murder game is that of individual detail.

Kill one person, and it's a tragedy. Kill a million people and it's a statistic... Same thing with video games. Kill a million people in a war game, and it's just good fun. But make a murder simulator, and it becomes taboo.

But morally? I don't see how one can justify endorsing murder in a video game but not rape.

ReyBrujo
Moderator
January 2001
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Kill one person, and it's a tragedy. Kill a million people and it's a statistic

Kill one person and it is murder. Kill a million and it is conquer. History is written by the winners, ain't it?

I remember when Manhunt 2 for Wii was putting people on guard because the game uses gestures that simulate the character's actions (slitting a throat was done with a quick swing of the Wii remote). Antiviolence groups were thinking that would induce people to start doing that (or to use the game to train your slitting techniques).[1] Did its release increase the amount of slashed people around?

--
RB
光子「あたしただ…奪う側に回ろうと思っただけよ」
Mitsuko's last words, Battle Royale

Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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ReyBrujo said:

Did its release increase the amount of slashed people around?

Yes, by 12.35%. On an unrelated note, 73% of all statistics are made up.

@ the OP:

While I don't like the idea, I can't really bring myself to say this game is wrong when I just killed my best friend fifty times in Halo 3.

Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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Killing a bunch of people in a game like Halo or Half Life is one thing. If you go around killing innocent women and children in a town, that's different.

I think the idea of raping a woman is much less palatable than murder because it has to do with victimizing helpless innocence. None of the other "crimes games" you mentioned do that, and I think that's why it's different.

If you take it one step further and make a game where you rape, say, 14 year old girls, then that's even worse. The victims are much more innocent and helpless.

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alethiophile
Member #9,349
December 2007
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If you take it one step further and make a game where you rape, say, 14 year old girls, then that's even worse. The victims are much more innocent and helpless.

Apparently, the younger sister in the game is very young (~10).

And yes, that is completely morally bankrupt. The problem, though, is that banning it successfully, and without ripple effects on other games, is nontrivial in the extreme.

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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
C++: An octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog.
I am the Lightning-Struck Penguin of Doom.

TestSubject
Member #8,989
August 2007
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Any killing games I've played has had people that deserved it. Why? They started it. Half-Life, Diablo, TF2, Halo, StarCraft, WarCraft, Guild Wars, Space Rangers, GalCiv, etc etc (that's an interesting one. in galciv you can get kill counts into the billions but you don't even notice--it literally is just a statistic in a column).

Individually:
Half-Life: The combine invaded the earth and are trying to pretty much destroy humanity. Hell, killing them is all I can do to save everything.
Diablo: Diablo & Bros are trying to destroy the earth. Admittedly not human, but still.
TF2: They're the other team. They should be dead?...
Halo: Campaign--trying to destroy the universe. Multiplayer--other team!
StarCraft: Trying to destroy humanity damn that happens a lot.
WarCraft: Eh I mainly play DotA more team stuff.
Guild Wars: Campaign--trying to destroy civilization. PvP--usually other team/other guild.
Space Rangers: Because I need money. They have money. If I kill them, I get money. Or they just hate my race (seriously).
GalCiv: okay I usually fail in this so it's usually in self defense.

Compare that to a rape game? What did they do to deserve rape? Unless they will rape me back just as hard, it isn't comparable to any other game I've played.

Onewing
Member #6,152
August 2005
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Murder is the end of life while Rape is the destruction of life. People who are raped have to go through a lot of therapy and it takes a long time (if ever) to become emotionally stable. People who are killed are dead, whatever the dead have to do becomes a religious debate, in which case a belief might determine death better than rape.

Furthermore, rape is more likely to be a morally grey area for people. It's a primal instinct to want to have sex and that impulse may drive someone to validate rape. Plus, victims of rape are more likely to sexually abuse someone themselves. Victims of murder don't really go around killing people now do they?

I can't see rape games as being a healthy outlet for sexual fantasies. Of course, that's the argument isn't it (e.g. killing games being a healty outlet). Ultimately, I really think rape is a bit too intimate of a subject to simulate vs killing (of course, it does get pretty intimate in Assassin's Creed: studying their life, watching them die, etc.).

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Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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Unless they will rape me back just as hard, it isn't comparable to any other game I've played.

hmm... a game to see if you can out-rape your opponent. I like it, especially if it's two chicks.

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SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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This is a question of morality... and there are as many moral systems as there are humans. There can be no rational discussion on this topic, aside from listing your own personal opinion.

Mine opinion is that this sounds like an awesome game, and it'd be nice to try it out. If we aren't allowed to play games such as this are we not allowed to fantasize about rape? What about reading fanfics about rape? In my opinion the point of games is to do things in them you'd never do in real life, but the things that your primitive human mind still wishes to do. Those include rape, murder etc etc.

You can't eliminate those urges from humans, and not everyone can bottle them up. Better act out on those urges on a bunch of polygons than a living human, in my opinion.

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Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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Upon viewing their site, I think that something is lost in the translation. It seems more like the girls are being "willfully molested" than "raped". I also think there's an added cultural thing on top of that - ever noticed that almost all Japanese pornos have the girl acting like she's really uncomfortable (a la being raped) even if she's not?

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Kibiz0r
Member #6,203
September 2005
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Fine. If we're gonna get all serious and shit...

News flash: Players don't view video game killing as murder!

More often than not, players kill out of necessity or survival, as a means of self-preservation. Usually, they don't play a game with the intention of maximizing cruelty, but eliminating threats.

The other half of this is that many cultures are more accepting of violence than of sexuality. Why we give preference to the act of destruction over the act of creation is anyone's guess.

So, you have a game where the player cannot rationalize their actions as self-preservation or acting for the greater good, along with the furthest extreme of a culturally taboo theme... Did they really expect anything different?

As for whether it's moral or immoral... It's neither. It's a fucking video game.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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ReyBrujo said:

Why we need the government (for example) needs to put itself in the middle, when there is already an organization that is in charge of determining what is right and what is not acceptable for the audience?

Why should the people and government of my country give a damn about what an American organization, such as the ESRB, thinks is suitable? NZ age laws are completely different from those in the USA.

I for one am quite happy with the NZ censor system. They actually seem quite a sensible bunch for a government department.

Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

It's very hard to imagine a rape being anything else than a brutal action that never is justified. There's an innocent victim and a sick raper, who only thinks of his own pervert pleasure. It's also very easy to think of murders being everything that. In those cases there's no big difference in the two actions, wheather we're comparing computer games on one hand or real life actions on the other hand.

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Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Kibiz0r said:

The other half of this is that many cultures are more accepting of violence than of sexuality. Why we give preference to the act of destruction over the act of creation is anyone's guess.

This isn't about sexuality, it's about rape. That isn't about "the act of creation."

There's an innocent victim and a sick raper, who only thinks of his own pervert pleasure.

Rape, typically, isn't about (sexual) pleasure; it's about power or control. Typically, it's also done by someone known (close) to the victim.

As for the topic at hand, I'm stunned that someone would even bring out such a game. Not because I think it will encourage people to actually rape women (the point of rape, again, isn't sex, and no one playing the game should be of an age where they think the sexual practice depicted in the game is normal), but be cause I think it's such extremely bad taste. Then again, that's my attitude to most pornography. I don't know how prevalent rape-related material is there. I guess it might be rather common; rape (either raping someone or being raped) is a common sexual fantasy.[1]
So I guess one should not judge this as a video game (in which sense I find it disgusting) but as a form of interactive pornography (in which case I can't judge on it one way or the other).

References

  1. Yes, being raped is a fairly common sexual fantasy. That doesn't imply in any way that women (or men) want to be raped. The fantasy is more related to domination/submission in relation to sex than to actual rape.
Kibiz0r
Member #6,203
September 2005
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Evert said:

This isn't about sexuality, it's about rape. That isn't about "the act of creation."

Where did I call rape an act of creation?

Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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Kibiz0r said:

Where did I call rape an act of creation?

You implied it by saying that we choose an act of destruction over an act of creation, since in the context the phrase "act of destruction" referred to violence, and the phrase "act of creation" referred to rape.

jhuuskon
Member #302
April 2000
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Evert said:

Rape, typically, isn't about (sexual) pleasure; it's about power or control

The femists have got you too, huh? Rape is about inserting a (typically) penis into an unvoluntary vagina, the reasons for which are various. Mostly about the people indulging in such acts being sexual deviants. Rape being always or typically being an expression of control is feminist propaganda stemming from the politically active batshit crazy extreme feminists like Schyman and Marklund of Sweden.

Quote:

Then again, that's my attitude to most pornography. I don't know how prevalent rape-related material is there. I guess it might be rather common;

Wrong-o. Practically nonexistant in mainstream pornography.

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