Background :
I came across a picture of myself and a girl I used to date at my Senior Prom about 15 years ago. I started to really miss her, and so I looked her up on the internet. I found out she was living about 1000 miles away and I wrote a letter to her. I was the one who broke up with her and I might not have done it in the best way. I just stopped talking to her. In my letter I told her that I regretted leaving her more than anything else in my life and that I was still in love with her and that I wished we had gotten married. I also found out that she was married now and I told her I hoped she was happy with him and that he treated her right. I told her that I was sorry for the way that I treated her and I asked her to forgive me and I asked her how she had been over all these years. I thought that when we were together we had something really special together.

So I sent her my letter and I waited a month for her to reply but she never did. I wasn't sure if she had received my letter so I wrote her another one. I had also made her two mix CD's. I sent them both together in a package.

The post office left a notice for her to come pick up my package but after two weeks she never did. It took two more weeks for my package to come back to me. After that I amended my second letter asking her if she hated me, why she didn't pick up my package, and if she was still angry with me. I told her how I was missing her and that I wanted to make things up to her for what I did. I asked her if we could be friends again and if she would please reply to me.

So I sent my amended second letter sans the CD's and big suprise, another month passed and still no reply. I couldn't understand why she hadn't replied to me, so I wrote her a third letter. This time I told her I couldn't understand why she hadn't replied to me. I thought maybe I had said something inappropriate so I told her I was sorry if I had. I told her her silence was hurting my feelings and asked her again to please speak with me.

So I sent my third letter and 10 days later I finally received a communication from her, and she told me to 'cease and desist' all attempts to contact her or she would contact the authorities.

TL;DR;
I spent 4 months, and 3 letters trying to contact a former girlfriend and then she threatened to call the police if I talked to her again.

So :

1. Was I wrong trying to contact her and make amends after 15 years apart?

2. All I ever asked of her was to forgive me and to speak to me. All I wanted was to know how she's been and how she is now. Is this an unreasonable request to make of someone I used to be involved with, someone I took to my Senior Prom?

3. Is my behaviour immoral or illegal? What if I sent her one last letter to say goodbye? Could I go to jail?

May this thread live in infamy forever....

I'm already laughing, and I haven't even started to read it yet!

Short answers:
1. No
2. No
3. No, in fact I see her behavior as poor. I mean come on, jumping strait from ignoring you to "Ima call police" is pretty harsh, especially since she didn't send anything after the first few that said she had received it and didn't want to talk or something. That's just setting them up to receive more letters.

I'll leave the long answers to the other members .

This thread has promise ...

Anyway, that could just be how she feels about you. Or maybe she just got over a sexual harassment situation at work and she's in that state of mind. You can't really do anything about her reaction except get over it. It's not for you to understand. It's for you to accept.

Okay, I've read it now.

You are CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A letter professing your love after 15 years?? She probably didn't respond because she didn't want to confirm that she had received your stuff.

Dude, next time send a Facebook message or something.

Forgot about this question. Really? You need to ask that? NO, DO NOT CONTACT HER AGAIN. Women are notorious for saying the opposite of what they mean, but give her some credit, man, she's speaking the truth.

And no, you wouldn't get into legal trouble if aren't under any sort of restraining order (and assuming you aren't a 100% stalker-creeper), but still... Time to move on.

Let her know your mad skillz with Allegro .

This is some dirty gossipy thread right here!

Dirty... dirty... robot gossip!

Here's the soundtrack:

Ok...

Yes. Especially the part where you said "In my letter I told her that I regretted leaving her more than anything else in my life and that I was still in love with her and that I wished we had gotten married."

Here's what's happening. Your mind is playing tricks on you. You could say that your "moon" is aligned and your rosy retrospection is at an all time high. So much that you can't trust it.

Don't forget you left her and you did it for a reason. If you got back together with her again it would most likely be the same thing all over again. Having an impulsive longing for an ex is normal.

Your mind's not on right. You need to just wait it out.

Ooooh, I missed that bit. Yeah, that's where she phoned and inquired about the restraining order. You don't say that to a married woman. Ever.

She's not on Facebook, or any other social networking site.

I really wanted to talk to her, and I had three options. Write a letter / call her out of the blue / send her an email to a work account. I thought writing her a letter would be the least intrusive thing that I could do. She could take her time to read it and respond at her leisure.

I've missed my other ex's before this, but I've been missing her for the last few years now, and I've never missed any of them the way that I've been missing her. I may have left her, but it was because I wasn't ready, not because I didn't want to be with her. If getting back together with her would mean the same thing all over again, I would take it, because I loved every minute I was ever with her.

Wanting to know how someone you care about is doing is irrational?

In my defense, the bit about wishing that we had gotten married was followed in the letter by "but I guess that will never happen now, and I will have to find a way to deal with that." Also in my defense, I told her I hoped she was happy with him and that he treated her right.

If an ex-girlfriend of mine had said those things to me (even if I was married), I would have been flattered, and honored that they thought so much of me that they were willing to spend the rest of their lives with me. Maybe it's different because she's a woman though, I don't know.

I admit, I may have said too much about the way I felt about her, but in my third letter I did everything I could to make up for it, and apologize for anything inappropriate.

Sending a letter = I know where you live. From a married women's perspective, that's creepy, especially with what you said.

If you must send a letter, then it should be very short:

"Hey, I came across a picture of us while going through some old stuff. I want to apologize for the way I left things. Hope you are doing well. If you wish to get in touch with me, here's my contact info."

The best way (other than a social network) would have been to perv-stalk one of her friends instead, and ask him or her to forward something along for you.

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Calls out of the blue are much less intrusive than letters. Letters are personal and thus very creepy if you've been out of touch for fifteen years. The longer you've been away from someone, the shorter/less personal you should probably be on initial contact. If they want to catch up, they'll set aside the time.

Reading the OP, you pretty much did the exact opposite of what you intended. Don't get me wrong, I can see how it made sense from your perspective, but ... damn, do you spend any time with women at all? They aren't that complex, dude.

This may even top one of bambam's for funniest thing I've read in a while.

We do live a 1000 miles apart. It's not like I'm gonna hop on the next plane to XXXX and show up at her house.

I attached the full text of my first letter sanitized for privacy's sake if anyone really wants to know what I said to her. I don't think the way I said things would have come off as creepy as you make it out to be.

Well, my letter definitely wasn't that short, but I don't think I said too much. I was honest and friendly and said what I thought needed to be said. There were some things that needed to be said that couldn't have been said so briefly. And do you seriously recommend passing notes to her friends to give to her?

I don't know what you're talking about. If women are so simple and easy to figure out, then why did someone who used to be involved with me completely ignore me and then threaten me with the police? I would have been happy with any reply, but she chose to completely ignore me and then treat me like a criminal instead of treating me like a friend, which I am.

If one of my ex-girlfriends had written to me, asking me to forgive them and talk to them, wanting to know how I was, there's no way in hell I wouldn't have replied to them. I would never have ignored them, and I damn well never would have threatened them with the police.

I feel like a creeper just scanning your letters.

I don't know how to put this... But if you cannot see that your letters are messed up, then you should seek help from a professional.

Honestly, I don't see what I did wrong. I think I'd like a second opinion.

I never made threats, I didn't try to intimidate her, I didn't ask her to get back together with me. All I ever asked of her was to forgive me and to speak to me. All I did was ask her how she's been. I don't think that is a grievous request to make, especially of someone you used to have an intimate relationship with.

It was very clear that that was your intention. You may be convinced that your intentions were less than that, but it's very clear that you want more.

You dumped a lot more on her than that. When you say all those things, you put a lot on the person - you're asking the person to process and respond to a lot.

And for a girl, that's really scary.

That was fifteen years ago, homie.

If Matthew's was the first, Mark's is a second, and I'll agree as the third before you ask. I repeat: you need to accept and move on. And if you find that difficult, then your intentions are a lot more than you consciously think they are.

Fourth'd.

You need to move on, and stop acting like a potential stalker.

She is married, and even if she wasn't you should have got the message a long time ago. Fuck off and leave her alone. Seriously.

@Mark Oates
I won't deny that I wanted her back, but I never made mention of it at all. I don't feel like I pressured her to do anything implicitly and not explicitly either.

Is it really so much to ask of her to tell me if she forgives me and whether she's doing well?

In the five to ten minutes it took her to type up her 'cease and desist' letter, she could easily have written :

I (do/don't) forgive you.
I'm fine.
(How are you?)
I (do/don't) want to speak to you again.

At least that would have been the decent thing to do. Instead she completely ignored me and then threatened me with the police.

I admit some of the things I said may have been too personal, but I don't think that they were so egregious that they couldn't have been addressed in a reply without resorting to threats. It's not like we were complete strangers or anything. We were each other's first love's, and she was my Senior Prom date. It may have been 15 years ago, but I remember it all like it was yesterday. Is it really such a shock to know that someone you used to be with loves you?

@Yodhe23
I'm not a stalker, potential or otherwise. I just wanted to get in touch with someone I used to know who I care about.

@James Lohr
So no one else can care about her anymore? No one else is allowed to talk to her anymore? Marriage isn't supposed to be a prison. And now that I know she doesn't want me to talk to her I won't. I'll respect her wishes, but if I hadn't tried to get in touch with her again I would have regretted it forever.

Mark was much too polite when he said "You could say that your "moon" is aligned and your rosy retrospection is at an all time high." What you are feeling is not love, it's a poorly disguised desire to screw her.

Do you think the rejection you are feeling now is even a scratch compared to the hurt and rejection you will have caused her to feel?

[EDIT] And don't somehow twist this into "oooh, she was hurt by me leaving her therefore she must have really loved me back then, and so maybe she still secretly loves me now". Seriously. No. Stop twisting things. She doesn't love you. I repeat in no uncertain terms: fuck off and leave her alone.

Yes. Firstly because it's more than you deserve, and secondly because, in your twisted mind, you would have gotten totally the wrong message and would still be stalking her now.

Of course not, but, in the context of her being married, your letters go way beyond being inappropriate. The simple fact that you sent them knowing that she is married was disrespectful. Did you even consider how your letters might make her feel? ...

..oh wait, you did and you were waaaay off the mark.

If pretending that she is somehow in the wrong helps you get over it, then so be it, but at some point you need to get in touch with reality.

Good. That's the first sensible thing you've said in this thread.

Wow...your insane.

You are way off base with this. I really do love her, and I miss her, and it's not because of sex. We never even had sex before, and given that she lives a thousand miles away I knew that wouldn't have been a possibility anyway.

I've had more than one woman that I was involved with stop talking to me without explanation. I forgave them, and I still care about them, and I would still talk to them if they contacted me.

My mind is not twisted, and I wouldn't have read anything into what she said that wasn't there, and I wasn't stalking her to begin with. Isn't there anyone that you care about that you might want to get in touch with? Or are you just willing to accept that the people you used to know are just gone?

Yes, and if I thought that they were going to upset her or cause her problems I wouldn't have sent them. You think I honestly wanted her to feel bad about anything?

Edgar, I think you should deactivate your emotion chip for now.

I think I know what you're feeling... you just got to wait it out. Acknowledge the feelings and allow them to exorcize themselves. Be confident in the knowledge that when you're under a powerful emotional force like this, it will cause you to make poor decisions and bad judgements, and, just give it time.

judgments, if you are a God fearing American.

I was going to post some more great advice, but I think I'll wait to hear bambam's hilarious reply.

It's going to be long. He may need to submit it as a pdf.

If she's married leave her alone, I think the lack of a reply should have gave you the answer.

And then you send more letters and CD's! she's probably now scared for her life and has contacted the police asking for guidance on stalkers.

Gender and marital status has nothing to do with it - I would think it was creepy.

The context of my quote was simply "sending a letter." A married women is likely to think receiving any letter is creepy.

If I got letters similar to these from a woman, my creeper radar would go off too.

Read the bold line again with the mindset of a person who feels threatened by the one who wrote it.

What's between them is none of your business. You don't know it, you're not supposed to know it and you don't want to know it. And that line screams that you'd wish he actually did not treat her right so you could jump in and be the hero to save her.

As others have already said. Forget about the whole thing and move on. Don't worry about her, she's fine and she does not worry about you either (except maybe she's scared to death).

1) No

2) No

3) She obviously wants you to leave her alone, respect that.

All in all, you did what you wanted/felt like which is awesome.
There are plenty of single and available and prettier womn out there, get out there and party, you will meet someone.

One of the biggest problems is that it's a letter and not face to face. If she intersected you at a mall or something then it might be different. For me personally, if I got a letter from anyone I hadn't seen in 15 years I'd be a little crept out. For all she knows, you could be a serial killer now writing from prison.

Just respect her wishes and let it go.

Hahaha man you're crazy, you sound like:

"Hi Sara I'm Edgar, remember me?, I really love you, I wish you was married with 
me, take this, is a CD of some music, you'll like it, and your husband too, I put 
some music for your kids too, I use to watch them at the school almost all day, 
they're really beautiful. Oh btw I know your husband too, he doesn't know, but I 
see it almost all day when he get out of the job, we use to talk. I just wanted to 
tell you that I really love you I wish we were married!, you catch it now?, I WISH 
WE WERE MARRIED!, I know where you live, and where your parents live too, don't 
take this too seriously, I hope you're happy with your husband, I don't like him 
too much, though.

With love, Edgar R.

PS: I don't like the clothes you bought to your kids for this Christmas, is too 
RED."

She is in another world now man, she is married and has passed too much time... Surely she didn't remember you, you did because you're not married, you are in a very different position than her. I think what relpatseht is true: "damn, do you spend any time with women at all? They aren't that complex, dude".

Because if you where "on the move" you wouldn't be missing here that much. Try to meet new people, and of course women. Take care man.

Sound accurate actually.

Post a scan of her year book photo (or recent one if you've got any from your telephoto lens) and we'll have a vote as to whether it's worth risking jail for.

I'm most sure someone has already said this (how could I know without actually reading all posts?) but really you've moved on 15 years. And she has. Why on earth would you move back 15 years? Moving on means aiming for new things in one's life, new friends, new relationships. Nothing wrong with old friends, but this is not it.

Yes, definitely. There are plenty of women around, it's wrong to try and warm up an old relation like that. It's very rare to work.

Sorry but everything about it was weird; the letterS, the mix cd's? Man oh man. And I'm not being nasty, I know how it feels, but you were just being creepy!

I want to post this thread on my facebook wall.

As many know, I am uniquely qualified to give you advice on this subject. Surely you remember my threads. If not you can search for them. Hell, you probably even participated in them. People are comparing you to me now. Do you realize now what you've done?! It took a whole lot of beer for me to get over my feelings, but now I see just how ridiculous I was.

This sounds pretty harmless so far.

Ooops, nope, there it is. Saying that you regretted leaving her more than anything in your life is a very frightening thing for somebody that has moved on. Surely you can imagine that. It might work out in the movies, but in real life those people have moved on. I'm afraid that you had your chance with her 15 years ago and blew it. That's OK though. That's normal. You live and learn. Your mistake was confusing real life with fiction. In fiction (a book, a movie, a video game) you can write a letter like that after 15 years of not speaking to her and she'll just come running into your arms. In real life, it does not work that way. Ever. Consider this a learning experience.

You're contradicting yourself. You just said that you regretted leaving her more than anything, love her, and want to be married to her. You can't possibly also want her to be happy in her marriage. These are completely polar opposite things.

OK, this is where you really have to understand the inappropriateness of your actions. It was mostly harmless to send her the first letter. It was inappropriate though to tell a married woman that you still love her and want to be married to her. It was dishonest to tell her that you wish her happiness in her existing marriage. Sending another letter when you didn't get a reply was completely inappropriate.

The postal service knows what it's doing (for the most part). You should never assume in such a situation that the letter mysteriously didn't get to its destination. Surely you can see how optimistic that line of thinking is. While it is possible, it's also possible that she just chose not to respond (which in hindsight should seem likely given the inappropriateness and contradictions of your first letter). In other words, she chose to ignore you because she has moved on, has a life with her husband, and wants nothing to do with you. You unfortunately kept pushing, as if you have the right to a response (but you don't). That doesn't necessarily make you crazy. You are human and you make mistakes, just like the rest of us. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

This gave me a laugh. Mix CD's (AKA "mix tapes")? It's so juvenile. And not just one, but two! One wasn't enough?! You should take a minute to laugh at yourself for this because it's quite silly. :) Again, you're human, so don't beat yourself up too much. Women make men do stupid shit.

Letter #1 was inappropriate. :P You should be able to work out how much more inappropriate letter #2 and #2.1 were. It doesn't matter why she's not responding to you. Whatever the reason it isn't going to be good for you. :) It's time to drink your drink and forget her. You live a separate life and it doesn't matter what she thinks. There are some 7 billion people on the planet and not all of them are going to like you. :) That too is OK and normal.

Big surprise (other than the CD's)? :o

You can't understand why she didn't reply before because you aren't thinking straight. That's what "love" does to you. I'm afraid it isn't destiny, it isn't magical, it isn't God's will. It's just chemical reactions in your brain. :( They are normal and natural, but that doesn't make them right. :)

Of course she did! :P I'm afraid that your actions were indeed very creepy. Just because it feels good doesn't mean you should do it. ;D

Trying to contact her was harmless. You weren't trying to make amends though. There was probably nothing to make amends for! Getting dumped is just part of relationships. It's nothing to apologize for 15 years later. Your letter was actually to confess your feelings for her hoping that she would return them and you'd both live happily ever after. Unfortunately, you live in the real world, and instead you creeped her out. :( Again, you're human, you make mistakes. Learn from this experience.

That isn't what you really wanted. It's blatantly obvious. You have convinced yourself of good intentions, but unfortunately your real intentions were to run away to France with her. :P

It doesn't matter who she used to be to you. :) That was a long time ago and things are different. It's not unreasonable to apologize to somebody, but how she's doing is really none of your business after so long. Had you been a lot less forthcoming then maybe you would have become friends and then you could have learned how she is doing. Instead, you tried to force yourself into her life (and into her arms, even) in one letter. That was not reasonable no matter how you used to know her. :)

She is an individual and it is entirely up to her if she wants to communicate with you, or if she wants to forgive you (or if there's even anything to forgive you for).

You likely couldn't go to jail, but she could get a restraining order taken against you. Your behavior is certainly inappropriate.

You might have topped even me. :D Congrats.

:D

\o/

Telling a woman that you love them and want to be married to them is a very serious thing. You don't say that to any woman after 15 years of no communication. :P Hell, you don't even say that to a girlfriend until the relationship is mature and stable (months, if not years, together). In fact, you probably shouldn't ever say that. :-X

Note: this does not mean that you should try to call her now. That ship has sailed. :P You can never try to contact her again. Even still, in the state of mind that you were in, a phone call would not have gone any better. :) Believe me, I've been there too. :-X

She doesn't know that.

Nothing needed to be said. :) She is happily married and long over you. You wanted to say something hoping for a miracle, but in hindsight you should see how foolish it was. :)

No, he is trolling you. You aren't in high school anymore. :P If you have a mutual friend still then you could have arranged a get together or something, but again it would not have worked out. She'd still be married and have no time for you. It would be even more inappropriate to try to go through her friends that you also don't know anymore. :P

I am over-qualified for this: what you did was wrong. :P

You did strongly imply that you wanted to get back together with her, even while admitting to knowing that she was married! Moreso, there was probably nothing to forgive you for. And there's no reason to speak to you. You live completely separate lives. At this point in time you are just as much strangers as any other random person you pass in the street.

^ This. You're not thinking straight. You need to move on. Either give it time or give it alcohol^[1].

This is absolutely correct. Distract yourself with other things. Other people or hobbies or work. Don't allow yourself to think about her anymore. There's no point. She has made her position clear. Trust me, once you get over it you feel much better in general.

8-)

>:( ... ;D

No. It wouldn't matter. He is not in the right state of mind to be just friendly with her. He wants more than is realistic. There is no way it could have worked out happily and it's for the best that it didn't. After 15 years she is probably a completely different person anyway. He is in "love" with a memory. Things change.

Yep! TL;DR!

TL;DR was still too long.

Get a (female) friend to proofread your letters next time. If you have none, don't do this again until you get someone to proofread your letters. You are anti-qualified to talk/write to women.

Making amends is fine (if that's really what you wanted to do, see bamccaig's post)... but you've done it in the worst possible way.

No, don't get a female friend to proof your letters. Why did she say "cease and desist" as opposed to "Leave me alone"? Because she has already talked to a lawyer and/or the police. Drop it and move on.

Why not? If he had, all of this would have been caught before the first letter was even sent. "Next time" obviously means "next female from his past life he wants to stalk".

So it was okay to break up with her by not speaking to her because others have done the same to you and you got over it? That sounds like paedophile logic: if you were abused as a kid, and you think that you "turned out fine" that does not give you the right to abuse kids.

Anyway, I second SeigeLord's suggestion of getting someone else to proof read your emails/letters. I also think that you need to be chaperoned, preferably by an armed officer, the next time you are in the city where she lives.

Alright, the verdict is in...

If drunk bambam thinks something is a bad idea, then IT IS A BAD IDEA!!!

Edgar, I nominate Mr. Y to be your life coach.

I'm going to quote that at inopportune times!

Oh boy...

Long story short, you do not send [i]love[/i] letters to someone you have not seen in 15 years after breaking up with them. It's not necessarily bad to catch up with people you knew 15 years ago (hey, I sometimes wonder about people I used to know 15 or even 20 years ago) but going out of your way to contact them is a bit creepy. If you try to contact them and they do not respond, then the message is clear: they're not interested, so you should let it go. Sending them further stuff is likely to annoy them or creep them out.
Sure, they may have been waiting for you to write these past 15 years and your message just happened to slip through the system and not turn up for another 15 years, but that's really clutching at straws.

So, wrong to send a message? No, not necessarily. Wouldn't have done more than a christmas card myself though.
Content of said message? Dubious
Repeated messages after no reply? Big, big no.

Sorry.

Read 'The Game'. I don't suggest you make significant use of its content. But what you can get from it is an escape to a world where women are not a holy grail and rejections don't hurt.

And, see the funny side. Too many people in this thread are worrying and going on about how bad and unacceptable it is. It's not. It's completely understandable, and her inability to communicate productively - at over 30! - is her own problem.

On the plus side, her husband obviously isn't supporting her too well.

Maybe her husband told her not to answer to the first few letters... and wrote the reply to the last one

How so? I bet professional advice wouldn't be far off: "Ignore him, and if he continues, then tell him to stop in no uncertain terms." Which is exactly what happened.

I mean, it's blatantly obvious that he is stalker material from the very first letter, so chances are she told her husband, he got professional advice, and this is what followed.

I would not even start thinking in that direction. Even if she never received any of the letters and even if it was her husband responding, it's best for Edgar to move on.

Don't you relentlessly stalk Japanese women? Creepers stick together.

Ouch... sounds like a super creeper motivation talk. Stalk as much as you want ... even if you are thrown in jail, that won't hurt.

It is.

I can maybe picture myself being in that situation and agree that I could feel the same way. So in a sense I agree that it may be understandable. That still doesn't mean it's acceptable behaviour.
Look, some things are cute and adorable in puberty, but highly inappropriate and creepy in adults. With hindsight I think some of the ideas and notions I had in puberty are quite creepy too.

To be clear about my previous comment: learning to accept rejections doesn't give you a license to pursue others in any way you want. Parking outside somebody's house for a month may not hurt you, but it would be scary and creepy to the person being stalked. So there is a line, and it has nothing to do with how you feel as the creeper.

Sounds like good material for a new thread.

It sounds like the first letter was a little bit strongly worded. What are her options after receiving a letter like that? It would seem to her that you want to get back together; and if she doesn't want that, or isn't sure that she wants that. Maybe she thought you might even have more sinister intentions. What is she meant to say? "I've moved on. Deal with it." -- ... Obviously there are many other options for her, but the key point is that the original letter sounded very confrontational. It was not just a get-back-in-touch letter.

That in itself isn't intrinsically bad; but I think it was a mistake to follow it up with more letters etc. It's likely that she didn't respond to the first letter because she felt too uncomfortable about it. I fully understand why you kept sending stuff. I've made that mistake myself - more than once. -- But really, I think after a strong letter like that first one you have no choice but to just wait for a response. A followup did-you-get-the-first-one kind of letter is only allowable when the first letter is not so confronting. I guess for this reason, the first letter could be considered a mistake, because it limits your options. It might have been better to open with "Hi. Do you remember me? Lets have lunch some time." and to keep your deeper feeling to yourself until you have a better handle on her situation.

.

So, in short, my answers:

1. No.

2. It is not an unreasonable request, but I think you have to build up to it.

3. I don't think your behaviour was immoral or illegal; but perhaps a bit socially insensitive. (ie. I think you probably overlooked or misunderstood how she would feel about your correspondence.) You're certainly not going to go for gaol for what you've described here - as long as you don't try to persist now that she's told you to stop.

Well if you guys are all going to overreact, gang up on Edgar and call him a stalker, then you can hardly blame me for writing a slightly flippant post that goes the other way, can you?

It's obvious that Edgar isn't actually stalker material, and it's a rather hurtful criticism. Unrequited love is very common, and very rarely leads to actual stalking. Actual stalking is extremely serious stuff, and so the word 'stalker' has been given an extremely bad stigma by the media, and so you should never call someone a 'stalker' lightly.

It's basic psychology that a happy person can communicate better and deal with potential problems better than an unhappy person, and I firmly believe that this woman would have written something more productive if she'd been happy.

'The Game' is not about stalking. It's about seduction, often deceptive, which is similarly immoral but the polar opposite of stalking. You don't need to stalk anyone if you know how to get them interested in you every time without fail. The reason I suggested it is because you can imagine being such a person, which is a good coping strategy if you're trying to get over someone. As I said, I don't recommend actually using most of the content - apart from the ethical parts like knowing how to dress nicely.

No, I have never stalked a Japanese women. (Gnolam, why don't you turn some of that anger into lust with me tonight?)

Didn't read the thread, just the OP & few replies.

>Was I wrong trying to contact her and make amends after 15 years apart?

Not really. But be honest with yourself, why did you do that? & what for?

You really missed her and wanted her back. That's after she has built another life, which doesn't have any place to you. It would provoke undesired emotions. Your questions about legality of the stuff show you realize you're doing something wrong. To a degree..

Something rude:

>All I ever asked of her was to forgive me and to speak to me.

You've made it clear you feel like you want her back, and you know. She might assume/know it as well.

>All I wanted was to know how she's been and how she is now. Is this an unreasonable request to make of someone I used to be involved with, someone I took to my Senior Prom?

Taking in to consideration my above statements, it's just childish. And she doesn't want to feed the troll.

>Is my behaviour immoral or illegal? What if I sent her one last letter to say goodbye? Could I go to jail?

... No. But your thoughts about it display that you realize your actions are kind of immoral/wrong.

P.S:
It's my personal opinion, and I'm surely wrong somewhere.. But there gotta be some truth in my words as well.

I blame you a lot! He only needs positive reinforcement from a single person to get the wrong impression. I don't want him to end up on Dateline NBC.

We aren't ganging up on him. He won't think what he is doing is creepy unless a lot of people say it's creepy. Just because he personally wouldn't be offended by such a letter doesn't mean it isn't inappropriate.

If you tell a lie, you are a liar. But that doesn't mean you are characterized as being a liar. If you stalk a person, you are a stalker. And what he was doing by hunting her down, looking up her marital status, getting the name of her husband is stalking. That makes him, in that moment, a stalker.

That doesn't mean I think he is mentally unbalanced and is going to go set up camp outside of her house. But I do honestly mean when I say he should talk to a professional (or even a personal friend who will be honest) if he cannot understand how this woman was justified in being spooked over how he went about trying to get in touch.

Hey Edgar, I realize your intent is clean (and I know it's hard to say some of that or do some of that without feeling like a stalker)

I read only the full first page of text before posting this.

As a married woman I would think it very possible that even with your letter addressed to her, that either questions were asked about it from her husband or she voluntary let him know about them. From the husband's perspective it's like a foreign person trying to win his wife over, and I'd imagine he has some part of the dynamic change of attitude (a polite response to a legal threat) I don't think it was her own whim. Just think about it from her husband's perspective and just assume intervention or influence of some degree on his part.

I don't know if I would be comfortable picking up packages (especially being married) so that was probably weird. I would've asked her about those before just sending them.

Unfortunately, yes, her being claimed now is pretty much a game over for you. Did you actively think about her those last 15 years? The "feeling" of love itself goes away on average two years, so there is hope to recover then when it's your own will to love her left and you're not "automatically" in love with her.

Letters are very intimate and it'd be a very dangerous thing for a married woman to hold on to. She's moved on. You really can't follow her.

I'm not too sure about this next part, but you could (letters are still creepy) apologize for your actions (or rather not limiting your longing enough to a non-creepy level) and make it more of an apology than a goodbye, but still a goodbye. And keep it pretty short, and don't contact her again unless contacted.

Did you actually read his letters? I'm actually amazed at how soft some of you are on him. I mean, fair enough Allegro is a nice and supportive community and all, but the man is quite obviously delusional.

What? He breaks up with her by not talking to her, waits 15 years, then sends her letters that are so creepy I have hard time believing they'r not a Halloween joke, and you're now doing an analysis on the metal state of the victim because she did the sensible thing by not feeding him? I'm shocked Bruce, I really am.

He has already proved that he is barely capable of accepting that he is wrong when everyone, including textbooks, says that he is wrong. Well done Bruce, you've just blown our chances of talking some sense into him. Now tell us who you've been stalking so that we can fix you before you do something silly too. A Japanese girl did you say?

I don't see why you're calling him delusional. What delusions do you think he has? It's not like he's claiming that the girl is still in love with him or anything like that.

When Bruce says "/It's obvious that Edgar isn't actually stalker material/" I'm pretty sure what he means is that it's obvious Edgar doesn't want to harm anyone, physically or emotionally. I really don't think what Edgar did is as bad as you are making it out to be. In my view, the only bad Edgar has done is made the mistake of being too open, and then misjudged the meaning of the response (or lack of response). The sorts of social rules / conventions that we are talking about are not an intrinsic part of being human. They aren't automatically known to everyone. They have to be learnt. I don't think Edgar is delusional. I think he just made a mistake, and I think he'll learn from that mistake. Evert talked about how people do this kind of stuff in puberty – What I'm saying is that I don't think it's a big deal if someone just happens to have missed a particular social lesson that most people experienced in their puberty. You have to learn these things sometime, and the opportunity doesn't arise at the same time for everyone. Some people might not have their first love-like feelings until well past puberty. It's not really their fault, and I don't think they should be shunned for some social taboo they happen commit while learning how to deal with those feelings.

Surely there's no argument to be had here!?!?!? Read the letters, not letter LETTERS and oh yeah, the mix cd's! Nothing odd there; read the contradictions and possible outcomes to the reader. Sorry but no-one can argue, the whole thing is fooking mentalistical.

But Edgar your answers on a lot of the programming questions are amazing, so the Allegroids all love you, but we probably wont in fifteen years.

That is meaningless. If one were to speak to a murderer the day before he/she offended, one would likely detect very little direct animosity. Most harmful acts are not committed out of spite but out of selfishness and carelessness, and that's what seems to be happening here. He has most likely already caused emotional harm because he is thinking only about what he wants.

Thinking that any good could possibly come out of what he is doing (other than him learning - we hope - that it was a big mistake) seems like a pretty big delusion. What was he expecting to happen? - For her to leave her husband and go skipping off into the sunset with him?

Fair point.

Delusional? Seriously? Aren't you the one who broke up with a girlfriend of a year over being too fucking lazy to go to her parent's 50th birthday / wedding anniversary / whatever? And then you proceeded to brag to us about how glad you were she was gone. You'll pardon me if I don't take advice about love from someone like you.

I think you're really over reacting by calling her a victim. I didn't commit any crimes, morally or legally. If I continued to talk to her, then maybe. If being too honest or loving someone is a crime, then I guess I'm guilty, but I honestly never thought that what I said to her would make her uncomfortable or frighten her either. Maybe I don't know her as well as I thought I did though, I don't know.

To everyone who says my letter was so creepy, let me quote some more of it for you :

That doesn't seem like anything more than a kind communication to me, with concern, affection, praise, and sincere regret.

I only knew she was married because of a relative's obituary. And just how are you supposed to find someone you're looking for if you don't do research? That doesn't make me a stalker.

I am willing to admit that I said too much to her, and that I was too personal with her, but I really wanted her to know how I felt about her, and the only way to do that is to actually say it. I think it's better not to leave things unsaid, than to never say them at all, especially to someone you love.

Edit
@Karadoc
Thank you for actually seeing my side of the story here. Not too many people here seem willing to do that.

I'll break the creepy factor down in a scale of 1 to 10, considering it's been fifteen years since the last meaningful conversation.

2

8

6

1

7

3

8

4

10

7

8

10

10

10

9

10

Ask a friend of a relative of a friend of a friend of a relative of a friend who you are still in close contact with. If you didn't know any of her friends, then I imagine this relationship was probably nothing like you remember it was...

But really, there's no harm in casually looking up somebody's contact info, but writing a letter and saying, "I know you are married to a guy named Jim Bob" goes beyond that into creeper mode.

I give you points for having the balls to contact her. But like I've said many times, there were more more rational ways to do that. It's not the concept of getting in touch that I think is creepy; it's the way you went about it.

And still loving your highschool crush after 15 years of not seeing her? That's where the bit about being "delusional" or something comes in to play.

OMG!! You was stalking James Lohr too?, you did it again! bad boy!, come on someone call the police!!.. I know where he lives...! no no.. I don't...

You're a good programmer and definitively one of my teachers, as long as you can post from jail I'll love you. Oh now I get it, you feel that way because I never asked you if you want to married me?.

15 years is a very long time to be holding onto a high school relationship. Let things go. Collect everything that reminds you of the relationship -- photos, letters, locks of hair, etc -- and burn them in a fire.

Then go get laid. Even if you have to pay for it.

Oooh 69 replies in the thread!

... oh whoops. Carry on.

+1... And no, I'm not talking about creepiness.

@Matthew
I think your rating system is a little flawed, but hey, 113 out of 160 isn't so bad.

AMCerasoli,
I have received your communication. I have to ask you to cease and desist in your efforts to contact me. If you contact me again in any way, I will contact the authorities.

(Almost word for word to her reply to me)

And somehow, that is a more mature response than "I'm fine, how are you? Please stop sending me letters, I just can't be friends with you again."?

I didn't just know her, she knew me too, and she would (should?) have known that everything I said to her was out of love, and not meant to harass / intimidate / scare her.

I just don't see why someone who used to love me would decide to treat me like a criminal instead of like an old friend who loved her. I saw her at graduation after we had separated, and she didn't seem angry or hurt, but then years later I saw her again and apologized to her and she didn't say a word to me and I never understood why. I think it's perfectly reasonable to want to know why someone you love might hate you.

Bruce: I actually agree with you in theory when done properly, and I respect the material in The Game although I've never read it, just heard about it. But in practice and especially in this situation ... creepy.

She probably doesn't hate you, but as a husband and wife unit I'm sure the agreement is you're a threat to their already established and [possibly] happy marriage. I wouldn't be surprised if the husband wrote the last response entirely himself.

Point is, he sure wouldn't approve of such a threat to influence his marriage -- though I agree there were more graceful [and less cold] ways to end/discourage communication, albeit there were also less intimate ways to express each of your points in your letter.

Both parties are justified in their perceptions though communication/actions taken were not so considerate of the other.

Seems pretty obvious that she's just playing hard to get. I suggest you send her a video of yourself reciting a poem about how much you would enjoy making love to her.

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Was this the first song on the mix-cd?

Let's guess which tracks made it.

I know you don't actually care, but here are the playlists anyway :

Disc 1

1 Fearless - Taylor Swift
2 Count On My Love - Liz Phair
3 In The Dark With You - Greg Brown
4 I'm With You - Avril Lavigne
5 4 Real - Avril Lavigne
6 Sparks - Coldplay
7 Phantom Limb - The Shins
8 City Of Blinding Lights - U2
9 Freak Out - Avril Lavigne
10 Tupelo Honey - Van Morrison
11 Crazy Love - Van Morrison
12 Feels So Good - Van Halen
13 Mad Dog 20/20 - Teenage Fanclub
14 Everything Reminds Me Of Her - Elliot Smith
15 Pink Cashmere - Prince
16 I Just Don't Think I'll Ever Get Over You - Colin Hay
17 Release - Pearl Jam


Disc 2

1 Love Story - Taylor Swift
2 Closer To You - Liz Phair
3 You Found Me - Kelly Clarkson
4 That's How Strong My Love Is - Otis Redding
5 Mama, You Been On My Mind - Bob Dylan
6 I Slept All Night By My Lover - Greg Brown
7 Looking Through Patient Eyes - P.M. Dawn
8 On A Limb - Neil Young
9 A Man And A Woman - U2
10 Adore - Prince
11 You Belong With Me - Taylor Swift
12 Marry Me - No Doubt
13 All I want Is You - U2
14 Nothing Compares 2 U - Prince
15 The Best Day - Taylor Swift
16 Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own - U2

Disc 3

1  The Girl I Left Behind - Pete Seeger
2  Far Away - The Nadas
3  Now That I Found You - The Nadas
4  Something About Us - Daft Punk
5  Lost Tonight - Liz Phair
6  Diamonds And Pearls - Prince
7  Anything But Ordinary - Avril Lavigne
8  Lullaby - Bond
9  Allegory - Murray Attaway
10  Luna - Smashing Pumpkins
11 Digital Love - Daft Punk
12 Girl Sailor - The Shins
13 Meditation From Thais - Domingues & Ives
14 Learn To Fly - Foo Fighters
15 Into The Mystic - Van Morrison
16 You Lay A Whole Lot Of Love On Me - Shania Twain
17 Wish You Were Here - Avril Lavigne
18 Stop Standing There - Avril Lavigne
19 I Better Be Quiet Now - Elliot Smith
20 Feel Better - The Nadas

I think all 3 of them are great CD's, but maybe that's just me. And to everyone who thinks mix CD's are juvenile, I think you're wrong. Good music is a good gift.

The big mistake is talking about love, about when you were toghether, and specially this:

You're saying there that you'd like something more than friendship... to someone who you haven't seen in 15 years and who is now married. I'd give that 12 points of creepiness out of 10 .

I don't think you're in love either. After 15 years you can't. You just feel nostalgia for some reason now.

<edit>
And the CD's full of love songs. Stop talking about love with her (well, it's too late for that actually ).

In my defense, I wrote that part before I knew she was married, and just never edited it out.

It doesn't work to approach a girl in the same sort of way you'd like to be approached by a girl. We go through our lives in a very different way than them.

1) Women are smaller than men. If it came down to a fight, you'd win. This might seem trivial but you've been bigger your whole life -- you probably haven't felt what it's like to be around someone whose stronger than you and really wants something sexual from you.

2) Some men are overly aggressive. Imagine you're alone with someone who you'd prefer not to sleep with but wants to have sex with you. Imagine now that that person is stronger than you and might not hold back. You can't tell which person will hold back and which wont -- so you're forced to be weary of all of them.

3) Some men will stalk and rape. It doesn't matter that you're a decent citizen. You may even be the type to help an old lady across the street. There are some men who will do awful things. You're in a category of people who do awful things. So even if you're not going to do awful things, a woman must be weary that you might.

The real curve ball of the situation however, is that woman want an authoritative, confident man. Combining the docileness described above with confidence is a fascinatingly complicated pursuit. The docileness definitely comes first.

Dude. There's your problem right there. Music shapes the way you think.

You need some of this:

Best hip-hop album ever made.

Listen to our Canadian friends:

That's it, I know why she's mad at you. She works for the Music Publishers Association and felt betrayed that you copied music without paying for it. Perhaps buy and send her a copy of "100 Greatest Love Songs" as a gesture of goodwill

Something else to discuss:

Let's suppose that your letters weren't creepy, sickly and pitiable, and instead you were the very personification of charm. Let's also suppose that you were able to convince her to leave her husband. Do you think this would be acceptable?

Personally I find the act of going after a married woman as something absolutely loathsome. I've seen men who I've respected, men who should have known better, pursue married woman and cause broken families, and no end of pain and bitterness. Invariably they have managed to skew their perspective on the situation into something that makes their actions justifiable.

So yes, I confess that I take some satisfaction in seeing your attempt at this fall flat on its face.

If we then couple this with the fact that you broke up with her by ignoring her, which in my books is a particularly nasty type of emotional abuse, then you'll have to forgive me for having zero sympathy for you.

As usual I'm late for this and I don't even have time to read the whole thread, but from what I did read (including the actual letters you posted in one of the replies) it looks to me like you managed to do the exact opposite of what you intended. Look at all this from her perspective. After all those years maybe she still thinks of you from time to time, or maybe she doesn't. Maybe she regretted the fact that it didn't happen for you two, maybe she didn't. Either way your letters convinced her it was actually a good thing you broke up with her because you turned out to be a creepy stalker kind of guy. She may be disappointed with you if she still had good memories of you, but most of all I she's now releived she dodged a bullet and is glad she didn't end up with you. On top of that she's also concerned about her safety and the safety of her family, ergo the threats with police. You should let it go. Even if there was a chance for you to come to terms with her, appologize for your actions and get some closure, you fucked it all up with those letters. Accept that and let it go.

Don't say that, you know what's going to happen: He starts to write a simple one line letter saying "sorry, I didn't realise I was causing distress, goodbye", and ends up with a 10 page dissection of his three letters, some pictures of him saying sorry and a dvd mix-up of goodbye songs (followed by a 2 year internet ban and 3 months in jail)

Nah.

You misread what miran wrote...

Ah, yes, punctuation. To make it clear, I'm not saying he should appologize to get closure, I'm saying he missed that chance already.

I did eventually read all the replies. Someone up there has the perfect advise: burn everything and forget about her! And don't talk about it either, especially don't try to let her know about it, just do it. Destroy everything that has anything to do with her (I'm sure Matthew can easily delete this thread as well if asked nicely) and never think about her again.

You should listen to me, I'm actually a good life coach.

Next time, don't give it all away all at once, leave some for the imagination and let yourself be mysterious. You f0cked up by tellling her WAAAAYYY too much. A nice casual card with little information, 'just saying hi' type of card would have done the trick. You tried to romance a (what I think) happily married woman thru a letter...letters are never the right approach. If you had taken the mysterious and friendly path you might have gotten further, possibly into the friend zone. Or who knows elsewhere.

Next time you have any such issues think twice and click on the link in my signature.

It is better the try and fail than it is not to not try and fail. At least you tried and I give props to that.

Disclamer: Haven't actually read the letters and the bamccaig's wall of text.

Short answers to all three are no. But I'll elaborate a bit more. It's not wrong to contact somebody after 15 years, it's not unreasonable to ask for forgiveness, but you have to do it the right way:

So, now please pause for a moment, try to get some perspective on what you've done. I wouldn't call it stalking, but certainly those letters were weird and creepy, though you've meant no harm. As Evert, I think, pointed out you've made a mistake everybody did, most of us in puberty, however it can happen later. What is now important is to take a lesson from that and try not to repeat that mistake:

• You've fucked up, admit it and get over it (probably even by burning all things that could possibly remind her). And do not even think of writing any apology/goodbye letter.

• Don't dissect your past, it's not worth it. You could sit the whole day going over and over past things and how you could do them better, but it's not going to change anything.

• If you're ever to write a letter for a long time no see friend of you be quick and to the point. Don't repeat your current mistake and dissect your feelings or whatever. If they don't reply, you can always try to send one more letter in case the first did not arrive, but don't get jumpy for not getting a reply. You can end up not getting any. In that case just forget it and move on.

Thanks for this wonderful thread, i had a good time reading it (rolling on the floor laughing)

And i have the solution for you, Edgar! Follow these steps:

- undertake the travel these 1000 miles to her.

- look at her. I bet you don`t want her anymore. Because most womens change a lot in 15 years and anyway you are in love with your picture in mind and not with the real person.

- if you still want her you can try to give her a 1000 dollar diamond ring.

wow, perspective. There's plenty of wisdom in there.

Are you sure this wasn't the letter that went with Disc 1

Fearless In The Dark With You, you can Count On My Love. I'm With You 4 Real!.

I Just Don't Think I'll Ever Get Over You because your beauty is like a City Of Blinding Lights . Everything Reminds Me Of [You] , even the blinding lights of the city.

I remember it like it was yesterday. Sparks flew when we met. It was Crazy Love making (as I'm sure you recall), but it was a good way to Release our passion for each other. My Phantom Limb as you called it still longs for you.

I hope that last statement did not cause you to Freak Out, it's just that, this Mad Dog's still got 20 / 20 vision on you. It Feels So Good to finally express how I really feel to you after...you know... oh and before I forget, I still have your Pink Cashmere. Maybe if we meet up I can give it back to you.

Reminds me of an episode from Frasier, where Frasier went on and on how it would be quite acceptable for him as an adult to date another adult, though she was married to someone else and bla bla. Niles interrupts him with: "Sorry, Frasier, what were you saying? I couldn't hear you because your penis talked so loud."

I thought this thread was creepy, and then I read the songs you put on the CD's; now I'M thinking of calling the cops!

Why would she say "I'm fine, how are you?" just before telling you not to send her more letters?

At any rate, can you really say you would just drop it if she replied in the manner you're suggesting she should have?

If she had asked me to stop trying to contact her, I would have, with at most one more reply to acknowledge her request. I do actually respect her wishes, once I actually know what they are...

@Dizzy Egg
I listen to those mixes myself. Now you're calling my music creepy too? I can't say I know your taste in music, because I don't have the bandwidth to listen to all the tracks you keep producing.

As to everyone who suggests I burn everything I own related to her, why would I do that? I may have royally fucked things up, but I don't resent her, and I don't want to destroy the few good memories I have of her just because things are broken now. I'm not the kind of person who can just forget someone they used to be with.

I don't think the tracks are creepy, I think the collection of them together being sent to someone you broke up with 15 years ago along with stalker letters is creepy.

EDIT:

Yeah we got that.

Everyone seems to be having a good time reading extra meaning into the things that I say that was never there to begin with. Why does everyone think there's so much hidden meaning in everything? What happened to just taking a person for face value? I suppose you would rather that I just pretend nothing ever happened between us. Our history is what makes us who we are. The past isn't some kind of enemy to get rid of.

Certainly she would. As it turns out, she gets a say in that.

Lovely philosophy. Not everyone will share that view. She doesn't.

And like I said before, now that I actually know her wishes, I will respect them. You all act like I forced all this on her. She had the chance to be civil, but she chose threats. I couldn't understand why she hadn't replied, and that's why I kept sending her letters. Silence isn't exactly the easiest response to understand, especially from someone who you think might actually want to talk to you.

Maybe she wanted you to feel the confusion she felt when you silently broke up with her.

Listen, you posted this asking if you were wrong. Yes, you were wrong, very wrong. No-ones saying forget your past, we're just saying don't send it stalker letters and mixtapes.

Yep, on the other hand you haven't talked to her for 15 years. Suddenly you come around an old photograph and start to write love letters. Way too late, I'm sorry.

For your own sake, you'd better do it. Face it, most people work like this to get over unpleasant things. For her you are 15 year old faded memory that was replaced by whole new set of memories. Don't poke in it any further.

Well I sort of agree with you. "You make your choices and you live with them." The choices and their consequences are what shapes us, the memory (and the past) is what aggregates these memories and derives experience from them. Our past is good for learning from our mistakes, for having a good laugh at something funny that happened to us or for having good moments reviving beautiful moments of our lives.

But it rapidly becomes our enemy when you wallow in the self pity due to bad decisions made on the road to the present. And that's what I think has happened to you at that time you have to step away and just live with that. As has been said before, it was ok to write a letter, but you did that in the wrong way.

I don't know what "all this" is supposed to mean, but you may very well have damaged her peace of mind by your behavior. If she's contacting the police then she's worried what you'll do. She may spend the next few months worrying that you'll come knocking. That would certainly have been "forced". You can't not influence through interaction. Chalk it up to "shit happens". Sometimes you mess up. You did 15 years ago, you did now. Oh well. /shrug

They're not stalker letters, and I'm tired of being called a stalker. Get your fucking facts straight :

I never willingly or knowingly harassed her in any way. Some things may or may not have been inappropriate depending on how she remembered me, but I don't think anything I did constitutes sexual harassment. I didn't make any lewd advances or crude comments, all I did (at least in my mind) was tell her how I feel about her. If that made her uncomfortable (and I guess it did judging by her final reaction) that was never my intent, nor did I believe it would.

By 'all this' I meant escalating what I imagined to be a fairly innocent communication into threats of police action. Ignoring people you used to know well / intimately seems kind of juvenile to me. Civil people usually respond when asked if someone will forgive them or they are asked how they are doing.

That is certainly not something that I want her to feel. What do you suggest I do? In my third letter I apologized for saying anything inappropriate or anything that made her uncomfortable, but I guess it didn't matter to her.

I know some people here would definitely disagree with this, but what If I sent her a really brief Christmas card, saying something like :

I'm sorry I hurt you.
I'm sorry if I made you uncomfortable by anything I said to you.
I will not contact you further.
Have a Merry Christmas, and good bye. Farewell.

Would it give her grounds for a harassment lawsuit? Do you think she would actually go to the police for saying good bye and letting her know I won't speak to her further?

I'm sure it seems juvenile to most people, but it's still the reaction I would have bet you were going to get. Depending on her personal experiences, this sets off all kinds of alarms in many women.

The same thing we've been suggesting all thread: stop now. Cut your losses. Any further interaction will increase her concern. The sooner you stop communication, the sooner she stops worrying. It's the only way to win.

Do not, I repeat, do NOT contact her again. Forget about her and move on with your own life.

She said she'd go to the police if you kept contacting her. If that isn't a strong signal/reason enough for you to STOP IT then what do you think she should do to stop you?

It does not matter at all what YOU or anyone else here think(s) about the whole issue. You have to let it go, she told you to stop, so that's what you do: No final note, no christmas card, nothing: Do NOT contact her again, ever. Move on.

"I'm sorry I hurt you.
I'm sorry if I made you uncomfortable by anything I said to you.
I will not contact you further.
Have a Merry Christmas, and good bye. Farewell."

But why farewell? Why do you want to close the door forever?

Stay cool man!

Who knows what next year brings. Maybe she leaves her husband or maybe you find a girl which is even better. In any case start thinking before acting...

That's the problem. Don't send her a Christmas card. Don't send her another goodbye letter. Don't send her anything.

Send her a Christmas card and a Valentine's Day card.

Send her a picture of Matthew on his motorcycle. Then she will be all over you.

No! Send me a picture of Matthew on his motorcycle. Then I can dote on him instead. Nothing to help you get over someone like someone new! </gayness>

I think the only thing you did wrong was come on WAY too strong. I thought I was bad... you gotta start small with someone you haven't seen in 15 years, feel it out, and if she shows interest, gradually build up to something. If instead she says don't contact me again, respect that.

I'm not a shrink and I can't read your mind, but it seems like you might have just remembered all the good times and not really thought of how things have changed over time. You gotta remember, life goes on, people change. You'll never forget her and what you had but also, you and her will never be the same people as back then.

I've never gotten a love letter from a legit person by email. Actually no one loves me.

Trust me, he has no right to criticize music.

The point is that there's no benefit to remembering the past. Thinking about her now won't make you happy. It will make you want her more. It will make you sad because things are different now and she is different now. You can think about her all you want, but none of it is real. It's all imaginary. It's all a faded memory. The best thing that you can do is to stop thinking about her, even though you don't want to. Getting rid of everything is a good first step to moving on. It's letting go. It's hard to stop thinking about something if you are regularly reminded of it.

Yes, initially. But the fact that he does not understand why she had a legitimate reason to be concerned and still asking if he should send a Christmas card despite all the advice to the contrary ... well, that's completely off the deep end.

If it weren't for his good track record of being a nice, helpful a.cc guy, I'm with DizzyEgg here, and I'd be calling the cops myself.

I only suggested it because I thought she might feel better if I told her I wasn't going to contact her anymore. That's all. Saying good bye might make her feel like it (whatever it is/was) is over.

cool story bro

She's established that she thinks you are crazy. So nothing you say in a Christmas card will be believable. It would only ruin her holiday just as she was forgetting about ever receiving your letters.

As far as she knows, you'd then follow up a month later asking if she got your Christmas card and making sure she knew it was over, and that you just wanted her to let you know that she got your card. And so on.

Any attempt made to contact her again will undoubtedly result in a visit from the police, or worse, her husband.

Well yeah, I have to agree. If she said something about calling the cops and she's married you should not send a card. At this point it's 100% over. Unless she contacts you, which I would not wait for in the slightest, then this is your closure.

While I agree I think you're not having a perspective in there. It's been 15 years since you've dumped her. I bet you were a faded memory and until she read that you were her date on the high school prom she hadn't had a slightest idea who the hell is sending her a letter.

What is more, the content of the letter most certainly creeped her out, so the best thing is to ignore it and hope no more are coming your way, if they do, respond with police threat. On the other hand, you could have gotten your reply if your first letter would have been a very short one.

At the end of the day, there are of course people who simply don't care and ignore such things - it's some kind of self defence and partly laziness I think - in a way that you ignore unpleasant things.

The thing is that, sending that good bye letter (in this context and after all those letters) it gives the impression (and it's the impression she would probably also get) that you in fact expect her to answer back telling you that she's sorry and wants to contact you blah, blah...

You can't do anything about this, as people have pointed out, you started way too strong in the first letter.

Who knows, maybe in another 15 years you can try again, but without doing the same mistake.

That would be perfect.
"I've been tracking you for another 15 years and you moved several times, divorced 2 years ago but got married again last month. I like your daughters and I offered them candy a few times outside of their schools but they only took a few. So, how bout we try this again?"

I don't think you should send her a xmas card, or any other correspondence at all unless she contacts you first. I agree that silence is often ambiguous and does not always covey the intended information, but in this case - she has told you explicitly not to contact her - I think your silence would be (correctly) interpreted as you being willing to honour her request. Let her say the goodbyes if she thinks they are necessary.

Perhaps some time in the future, all this stuff will have cooled down a bit and you can talk again. But I certainly recommend not contacting her in any way for any reason for at least a year or two, unless she contacts you first.

She is completely justified for her reaction. You broke up with her by ignoring her and can't figure why she is ignoring your correspondence now. If she sent a cease and desist order then you by law are no longer allowed to contact her in any form. I know from experience as I have two things in my record that makes it so any unidentified crimes of those type and I become a suspect (heads up warnings but charges were never pressed to make them criminal records). Sending 3 letters and a package to a woman you don't know anymore crossed the line into harassment and stalking because you could have started making her paranoid that you were watching her every move. Best to just forget about her and if possible get rid of everything you have that reminds you of her.

I never meant for any of this to happen. I'm such a fucking idiot.

You're not an idiot, Edgar.

You're just human.

Just wait for what bambams will inevitably come up with next and this thread will be all forgotten

Agreed. Although some people relish the opportunity to lampoon people for mistakes like this, the truth is that people screw up like this all the time; with varying degrees of harm. Smart people can make bad decisions. It sucks; but you know what they say about spilt milk...

i hope bamcaig quotes me somewhere in his wall of text

Good luck finding it.

Ugh... Never is never! Not in a month. Not in a year. Not in fifteen years. It's over.

You're screwing up by giving harmful advice.

What I meant what that after a year or two the "any reason" thing kind of expires. I was going to clarify by saying "and even after that, only do it with a good reason" - but I didn't think it would be necessary. Besides, my advice was only to not contact her. Presumably you don't think that's harmful advice. My current advice expires after that timeframe - that's all I'm saying.

There is no good reason now or ever.

Honestly people - I told you not to throw insults like 'stalker' around carelessly. You see the effect it has?

I can think of a good reason to contact her by the way:

Of course, in that scenario it's unlikely that Edgar would even have noticed who he's sending it to.

This is where the saying "hindsight is 20/20" because at the time it seems completely understandable and harmless. Then after you see where it was wrong. This just makes you human.

Now walking off the top of a skyscraper just to see if it hurts when you land makes a person an idiot.

I took a year in government and law. If the order is a legal cease and desist order then it will be connected to his record forever. If he contacts her in two years and she files again, which I would assume she would, then she would have grounds to take him to court for harassment, stalking, and emotional distress. End result, depending on what the prosecutor goes for could be a fine or jail time.

My harassment issue just got put on my record as a red flag, so if any mysterious harassment pops up here I'm one of the first guys they bring in for questioning.

A careless insult starts with "yo' mama's so fat...". Setting a stalker straight is about about protecting our womenfolk.

Seriously, is/was he stalking by the legal definition? Probably not. In Vermont, the law states:

I think (A) and (B) are givens here, so we just have to show that he is "following," "lying in wait," or "harassing." Of course the first two aren't happening here, so let's look up "harassing."

So it just comes down to arguing that his actions would cause a reasonable person to fear getting hurt. It has nothing to do with your intentions or exactly what you are doing ("not limited to")... just a "course of conduct" which implies a repeated set of actions.

Given that there were no explicit threats, and she hadn't yet requested for him to cease contact, I don't think he has crossed into a legal definition of stalking. Although one might argue that saying something like, "I'd do anything to get you back" constitutes a threat, I doubt that would hold up unless perhaps he had recently purchased a plane ticket to the city where she lives.

If there's a conflict between someone's words and someone's actions, it's a good idea to judge their actions. Yeah, sometimes you misinterpret their actions and they didn't mean to do anything bad. Even then, you're better off being on your guard though.

You should never forget the past and you should always savour good memories (too bad you've tainted yours now) and learn from the bad ones. But the past is not somewhere you can live. You have to live now and accept that the past is the past.

What she said, verbatim :

It wasn't 'served' to me by any authorities, but I don't doubt it would still be legally binding. Her father is a lawyer after all, and he probably told her what to say. It was also sent by Express Mail, which I believe gives delivery confirmation, so she has confirmation that I received it as well.

I never said anything like that.

The thing that I really don't understand is why everyone thinks there is so much implicit communication going on. That's not the way that I communicate. I don't use innuendo or imply anything (in my mind / as far as I am aware of). So why does everyone read so much into everything that I said? I do my best to say what I mean, and mean what I say without trying to hint / imply / what the f' ever else people think I was doing.

I've come to understand now that perhaps women would not be as receptive to the way I communicated with her as a man would be (or at least as I would be anyway).

I know now that I'm a total fuck up, but as I wrote everything, it made perfect sense to me then. I honestly thought that she wouldn't take anything I said poorly, but rather take it as compliments / sincere affection. I thought she knew me better than that, but apparently I was wrong about that too.

I still don't believe that I have anything to be truly ashamed of, but I deeply regret how badly misunderstood I seem to have been and how negatively she reacted to what I said and did. That was never my intention. I truly did want to know how she was doing and I truly did want to make things up to her, but it seems obvious now that I didn't know her nearly as well as I thought I did, because I truly thought that she would reply to me.

True, I was thinking of this line: "I will have to try to find a way to deal with that."

Once somebody has formed an opinion of your character, everything you say will be held within that perspective. It's not about what you are implying, it's about what the reader infers.

If someone thinks you are a stalker, then that line is threatening.

If someone thinks you are a depressed loser, then that line sounds like you might be cutting your wrists.

If someone thinks you are a normal person, then that line just sounds like you are bummed out.

Only a weak-minded individual is embarrassed or ashamed of something done with good intentions. Killing somebody over a candy bar is something about which to be ashamed.

Feeling a bit of regret over a mistake is normal (although still a waste of energy), but there's no harm done here because you had no shot of anything whatsoever no matter how appropriate your original contact was.

That's how most other people communicate (especially women) and that's how they perceive your communication. I think many of us here understand you and sympathise with you but that's simply not how the rest of the world works. It's a lesson all of us have had to learn at some time.

Mod edit: ASCII PR0N

Agreed.

Epic thread, i had to bookmark it!

Seriously thought everyone can mess up, we all do mistakes. Now listen to the good advice and forget about her.

Hearing about regret reminds me of this great song.

Daddy, what does regret mean?
Well son, the funny thing about regret is,
It's better to regret something you have done,
Than to regret something you haven't done.
And by the way, if you see your mom this weekend,
Be sure and tell her, SATAN, SATAN, SATAN!!!

Trying to get in touch with her again was fine. General rule though is that you write the letter as a friend. Bad idea to rehash old feelings after 15 years especially after you ended it by ignoring her. She may have had a very different reaction if you had kept it friendly without throwing in loving her still. Your professing your love after more than 5 years would come across badly for anyone. Either sounds like you are lonely and hitting up old girlfriends looking to just get lucky with a relationship or just looking for a booty call. Like we said, EVERYONE makes mistakes (got two serious ones myself like I pointed out) and it is best to accept she wants no contact with you, forget about her, and move on with your life.

Dwelling on this will just eventually eat you alive from the inside out.

Ooops.

Do you know what I would have answer her?:

"You can do whatever you want Sara, but next time you see me coming, yhea you better run. ER"

Hahhahahahahahah!!!

Recorded on my iPad.

I like that you just hammered the words into the song, rather than trying to pick words to match the rhythm. It adds to the irony. It was wonder(aw/wall)ful.

What, you can tell that I picked up a junky, freshly strung, out of tune guitar and made the whole thing up in the first and only take?

I thought it was going to be awesome. I'M SUCH A SUPREME LOSER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's not about what you intended. It's about what she perceived. All these people who are telling you it's creepy, or that you seem like a stalker; they're all looking at it from her perspective. What they're saying is what she saw when she read your letters.

Do NOT contact her again. It doesn't matter how you contact her, or what you say, she's going to see it in the context of the creepiness she felt receiving your letters. Don't prolong this for her.

That said, don't feel too bad about it. You had good intentions, but you made a mistake in carrying them out. It happens. Don't prolong this for yourself, either. Move on with your life.

Hey man, I said that i liked it. Why can't people just take what I say at face value?

I thought it was hilarious.

I'm changing my advice: I think you should send one last Christmas card with Matthew's song recorded to vinyl as a gift.

I may have found my vocalist...

Nah, judging by the soundtrack, Matthew has timing and talent

Ooh how cutting.

That was awesome, Matthew. I'm jealous that in this time you've learned to play the keyboard and guitar^[1].

It only takes about one weekend of not getting drunk to reach my level of proficiency on both instruments.

NOT getting drunk? Hmm, that's why my music is so shit!

Well, don't expect any kind of piano arrangement from me by new years eve after getting the keyboard out of the box on christmas day.

Just getting it out of the box will probably be farther than bambam got.

Matthew, go and buy a drumset. After a sober weekend you could record the drum track to that Monday song we did some years ago. IIRC, a real drum track was the only thing missing from the whole project.

Wow you guys had the same idea i had. bamccaig: gave me an idea for a hit single its called.

He is in "love" with a memory

2nded.

I really feel like shit today, so I took bambam's advice and decided to drink my way into a stupor and out of love.

Say hello to 750 ml of Jim Beam everyone, I think I'm already drunk, let me take another drink and make sure...

This stuff tastes like shit, but it's all I've got.

And I'm not within reach of stamps / a phone / er... but I could still email her...

Edit
Oh yeah, and I'm listening to the Hurley album by Weezer. In case you were wondering.

Yes. I was wondering if you were listening to that album; and now I know. Thank you.

The Jim Beam would probably taste nicer if you mixed it with something. I'm not a great fan of it anyway, but still; mixing it is the way to go.

That said, I personally haven't had a lot of success in drinking away my troubles. I suspect that the key to success is not to try to block out the bad, but rather to try to experience something good.

Have Chris hypnotize you. (Alcohol may be cheaper.)

Well, now I've moved on to the Siamese Dream album by the Smashing Pumpkins.

I've barely had a drink at all in 8 years, but she's^[1] a good reason to get drunk again. I quit smoking for her^[2] for two weeks, and the day I got that letter from her^[3] I went out to the bar and got drunk off of Fat Tire amber ale. Ever had Fat Tire? It's probably one of the best beers there are. And I started smoking again.

So, to keep this thread alive :

1. Which of your (ex)girlfriends would you like to be with again if you could, and why?

2. What is your favorite beer / lager / ale?

My answers :

1. I'll start : The woman I can't even talk to anymore, because I'm a goddamn idiot, because she has beautiful brown eyes and she kissed me with more passion than anyone I've ever known.

2. Fat Tire amber ale, of course

Go do something productive. Like coding or something.

Hey, here's an idea for SH: drunkenhack! Drink a bottle of vodka, then make a game. Repeat every 24 hours for 3 days.

Trying to forget about the love of my life by getting drunk doesn't count?
Also, I'm writing makefiles, does that count?

Make it Wild Turkey with Coca Cola and you're on!

I'd probably pass out after half a bottle of vodka (unless I already puke from the taste of the first two shots) and then be unable to do anything at all for a week.

That'd be fun as shit

I'll bite. There's a girl I dated for a short while a couple years ago. I wouldn't mind running into her again. She was the first tiny girl I ever dated, almost a foot smaller than me and probably less than 100 lbs. She was beautiful, and feisty.

Are you sure she was even 18 years old?

Two years older than I.

My mom asked, too.

Were you at least 16 at the time?

Anyway, to answer Edgar's question: none. I'm very happy to be single. If I stumble upon a rich woman who can tolerate me, then perhaps I'll reconsider.

But every time I go to the grocery store and see whiny kids asking for this and that, all I can think about is, "I'm glad I have no kids."

I knew a lot of girls (more or less) and few were very sexy. Sometimes i am thinking about to meet them again. Like you to maybe do some things with them i have missed. But you can`t get back the past. I am 48. The girls from my school time are in different worlds now. Anyway there are lots of others, and even better ones.

But after all material world is limited. I believe girls here are only limited copies of prototypes that exist in another world. So why bother around too much with the copies? Maybe we can get in contact with the prototypes.

This found its way to my Facebook stream about a week ago.

{"name":"tumblr_lu3cdyPyMZ1qg32txo1_400.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/d\/4\/d4a194b949b53523935aa93747a8245c.jpg","w":313,"h":320,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/d\/4\/d4a194b949b53523935aa93747a8245c"}

Legend!

...

wait for it...

1. Well.. I'm sorry to be a spoilsport, but I don't feel comfortable talking about that in such a public place.

2. I don't really have a favourite... and I don't even remember what I like very well. I like to have different beers at different times. Little Creatures comes to mind as one of the beers I like - but I don't think I'd give it favourite status. Usually, I'd probably prefer a strong mix of chinotto and vodka.

Yes, that's the best thing about schoolgirls. You get older every year, but they always stay the same age.

Best whisky/whiskey: drink it like cognac
Next to best: drink it on the rocks
Next to that: mix with icewater + rocks
Next to that: mix with anything to make it taste better, but really consider using vodka instead

I may have done a stupid thing too this week.

I was doubting since some few month, an old doubt I was already having tree years ago.

That time I didn't kept it for me. I shared what I had with my (still) wife.

I think I broke up everything. Now I oscillate between feeling depressed and feeling relieved.

I don't know where I am going with that story. We have a flat we bought, we're just married (26 Fev of this year) and we were planning a baby.

I fucked up the whole package.

I should have opened my own thread but didn't feel like I should.

You may miss my posts for a time. I may still post from work but I can't ensure you that I'll have the mood to do so.

Edited

Are you saying you had a fight with your wife? Say sorry before it's too late.

Give her a 1000 dollar diamond ring.

N/A.

I've mostly drank Carling and Budweiser. Carling is a bit cheaper (i.,e, ~$30 vs. ~$40). I think that Budweiser tends to give me worse hangovers, but perhaps I just think that way because it's been so long since I've had any. I bought a 20 bottle case the other day and had more trouble than usual drinking it, but that is to be expected when you switch beers. In any case, Carling is cheaper, and at least as good, so I'll stick to that again. Errr, I mean...

{"name":"kbeer0001.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/9\/9\/99a987b5cc5829b17589c5effec893a2.jpg","w":353,"h":310,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/9\/9\/99a987b5cc5829b17589c5effec893a2"}

My brother introduced me to rye and pepsi the other day, which was quite a lot easier to drink than I expected. That said, I am unqualified to mix my own drinks.

Same. While it sounds like it would be great to have a girlfriend/wife, the reality that I see is that it sucks: it costs a lot more money, it's a lot more stressful, and the good bits that you wanted it for are held at arms length for special negotiations. Every time I hear a woman nagging a man (or visa-versa) it just sends a chill up my spine. No, thank you! Hearing children running around or whining is even more annoying.

I'm still interested in meeting women, but I'm not beating myself up over not having met one either. I kind of feel bad for the guys that did. Like they walked into a trap or something...

Sorry to hear that Gull, want to share?
You're a really nice couple, i hope things get fixed!

:/

Edgar... hell yeah. I didn't have a fight, we have multiple verbal fights when I told her 1) I don't want a baby 2) It's because I know I don't love you enough

FMC: You can't know how terrible I feel. I mean, I'm the evil. I told her I do not love her enough. Being a nice couple isn't enough if your heart isn't any more on it. If it ever get fixed, it'll be in another story with her. I'm afraid that I'll not fix that one. Mainly because I think it would be stupid from me to do so now. I don't feel like I should continue with her, plus the whole thing is already stated.

It's fresh, it happened on Saturday 5 at dinner time. We still need to talk about it. We are still living under the same roof, sharing the house. It's pretty hard to resist.

It's kind of depressing because I like her a lot, she's my best friend, I nearly have passed the whole ten last years with her. I just feel like it cannot be us any more, and I'm crying my ass because I don't see any other door.

Maybe later.

I'm really really sorry Gull, i can understand how you feel. If you ever need a vacation in Rome be sure i'll be glad to take you around.

Are you sure you don't love her more than you think you do? You've known her for 10 years, and you married her. Surely you love her more than you think you do right now. Are you sure you're just not ready to have a child yet? It's natural to be apprehensive to such a large commitment. It doesn't mean that you don't love her anymore or enough.

You said she's your best friend right? Who else would you rather be with but her? Don't give up so easily. I don't know anything, but I don't think marriage would ever be as easy as it looks. You might just be in a slump right now, and if you give it time, it will pass, and you can both get past this. Someday it will just be a memory and you will both have forgiven / forgotten about it.

You have two options :

1. Leave the woman you love more than anyone else. But what for? What would you be looking for instead of her?

2. Man up, apologize, and fight to keep her.

I really hope things work out the best for you G. I totally destroyed any chance I ever had of having any kind of relationship at all with the woman that I love, so don't follow in my footsteps.

1. I have no exes to pine over

2. I don't drink

Hrm... I wonder if those two are linked...

Obviously not, bamccaig is the counter-proof.

Hooray! >finds a beautiful, witty, intelligent young woman and starts dating her<

@GullRaDriel: That's really bad news. I hope you can still make it work. Don't throw away things that took 10 years to build.

Horrible idea. Alcohol doesn't solve problems. Ever.
Well, I suppose it may disinfect things.

None. When it ends it ends for a reason and usually it's for the best. Besides, the one I have is fantastic.

None, I don't drink beer.

Anyway,

Gull: I hope, I really hope, that you manage to sort things out and can restore the love you had. But, I also hope that you (both of you!) have the strength to move on if that is how the cards play out, and not cling on solely for the sake of a memory of what you had. Here's hoping to the best, and wishing you strength and good luck!

Excellent idea! You can wake up hung over and begin a plan to become attractive / in shape to attract the next girl. Bonus: You'll be aloof because of your distraction with the last girl (just know when to stop being aloof -- too much and you'll kill the new relationship).

1. There was one but then I got with her and realized the thing that attracted me was not having her. Afterwards I realized she wasn't someone I'd actually be into.

2. San Francisco has spoiled me with all of it's micro-brews. I used to like fat tire but than got tired of it. If I want a beer that's common place I'll go with Anchor Steam. Typically though I'll try some esoteric micro brew that the restaurant offers. There's too many so I never remember which ones are good, but man there are some amazing ones.

Best analysis ever. I don't think we can in a near future restore anything. I damaged things so much...
Don't worry. I won't leave myself go down. I have friends IRL héhé. (that's a yellow héhé).

Now for the strength story... Alex is already out for a week. The doctor said so. She'll stay at her sister's house as it's too much to hold when I am around her.

It'll leave us some time for reflection, absorption, whatever. The next meeting is already planned and "I'm open to discussion" she said in the letter I found when coming back from work.

Miran: I'm afraid that love speaking it's already done.

FMC: Thanks. I take note.

Edgar: It's cute from you to try to convince me to save my first love. It's a pity I already have fscked up the whole thing, no matter how or what. If it's restarting, it'll be in a new period, even if it's still with Alex.

So far so good.

... what the fuck?

GullRaDriel, love is a made up word by women. Never say you don't love them enough, or whatever. It's just a word, so use it. In fact, you can be hitting them in the face, but if you say "I love you," then all is good.

If a woman is interested in you, all you have to do is keep using the L word, send her stupid things like dead flowers on every single anniversary (program it into your phone or something to automatically deliver them), impregnate her, and buy her enough expensive things to keep her from wanting another man.

So of course you will never love a woman as much as she loves you. It's just an irrational emotion that not everybody experiences. If you want a relationship to work, you just have to pretend you feel it too. All relationships are just built on telling the other person what they want to hear.

Someone should go and chisel this into a rock somewhere so the wisdom is never lost!

       | Drink    | !Drink
-------+----------+-------------
Heart  | EVERYONE | ?
!Heart | bambams  | A few people

Bambams isn't the counterexample Neil was interested in

Matthew: evil, mad, but true

Agreed, it just worsens any depression you may already have.

Anyway, beer you say? In the recent time I've become fond of Svijany^[1] which is a small brewery somewhere in the north. I try to stay away from Plzeň (or Pilsen in abroad) as it got bad for my taste.

You will be ok.

You were still posting coherently, so I don't think you drank enough.

If you wake up hung over, then you did something wrong.

I think you should try to get back with her, she seems like a nice girl, but I dont know the either of you well enough to make any reasonable assumptions.

http://www.definitions-marketing.com/Definition-Regle-des-20-80

Aucune femme peut te fair plaisir 100%, seulement, maximum 80%. C la condition humaine de vouloir le 20% qu'elle ne peut pas te donner, c ce qui te donnes l'envie d'aller autre part.

Either way, whatever happens and whichever path you take, if you are confident with your choice, you will survive and come out stronger.

GullRaDriel: Well, in that case, then it's best to deal with this like adults, be rational, split everything you have down the middle and go your separate ways. I have a couple of friends who were in a similar situation about a year ago. Bought a flat together and all that but it just didn't work (they were a couple for more than 10 years!) Anyway, they didn't try to make things unnecessarily worse for each other, they handled the situation really well and they're both fine now. So yeah, these things happen and it's not the end of the world when they do. This can be the beginning of something new.

First night lonesome at home. I can't say it was that bad. Of course everything I could have a look at was a reminder of what's going to be lost.

I have some long talk with friends, I finally was able to eat.

Days passing will help the both of us to accept the reality.

Meh, sorry Ed, I polluted your topic.

Look on on the bright side: at least you know what not to do in 15 years.

Heh. In an add with your comment Matt, I've just received a short powerpoint story which was saying that whatever the problem is we always have the choice.

1. None of them and I let them know when I'm with them I never talk with Exs or girls with Kids or girls that don't let off the pum.
2. Real men drink Genesee.

1. My first girlfriend and only girlfriend is now my wife so that is a moot question for me.
2. I don't drink alcohol.

Wow. Sorry to hear what you are going through GullRaDriel. I agree with Edgar that your best friend and someone you loved enough to marry would be something to fight for but I guess in the end you have to do what you have to do.

It can solve problems. For example, it can help to alleviate shyness. It can also help to relax you and make you care less. These can be useful if you must accept something that you refuse to accept.

I do agree that alcohol is a bad idea though. It isn't a perfect solution. It's addictive and a depressant, and it's also expensive if you drink a lot.

I've actually found that you can be pretty damn coherent even when you're tanked. It isn't until I begin to approach the point of actually passing out that I struggle to be coherent.

If you don't wake up hung over then you either didn't drink enough or you're very strong willed (or you got lucky or ate a lot of appropriate foods).

Its use as a means to make it easier to get girls is greatly exaggerated.

Which is exactly why it's not a solution.

I always drink a couple of glasses of water. Does the trick for me.
Then again, I only drink in moderation anyway.

Eating food doesn't solve it, it just prolonger or postpones it. Drinking water is what you have to do, to prevent the dehydration that provokes the hung over.

Are you forgetting about getting the girls drunk?

I think it's quite effective in that way.

Water is a good idea too. It somewhat depends on circumstances whether I can drink water or eat something, so which ever is most comfortable/satisfying is what I'll do.

Eating definitely can help to prevent it. I imagine because you slow the progress of the alcohol into your system. Water is important too, but sometimes it's not enough.

FTFY.

Guess I fucked that up too.

Well if you get a girl drunk to have sex or anything. Make sure she is so drunk she doesn't remember it. All it takes is a woman the next morning having a hang over telling police you got her drunk and raped her to screw your life up permanently.

Sounds like you should have just gotten rid of the body.

Hey! I'm drunk! Any ladies want to do me? I won't remember it, I promise!

Oh yeah, I'm drunk again. That bottle of Jim Beam wasn't empty yet! Hardy har har...

No talk about rape or necrophelia damnit! This is my thread, and it should be about ridiculing me, not SP, damnit!

Coherent this, whipperschnappes^[1]er!

I've outdrank you more in one night than you've drank in a month! </lame boast>

Mix it with Cider to make a Peach Schneider.

I suppose that is Australian for mixed drink^[1]. </lame joke>

Fuk, I haven't had a drink in like, 6 months.

That's just not acceptable.

I've barely drank in 8 years! Damn, get your drink on homey!

Last time I was drunk was over a year ago.

Last time I was drunk was, let me see... 13 years ago. That was before even allegro.cc existed I think. Speaking of which I'm shocked to see what has become of it, now it even has a thread animating everyone into drinking.

This thread isn't exactly one of our finer moments.

As any other thread about girls

Don't drink. Doodle! Ok, that won't fix anything either but at least it doesn't damage you like alcohol does.

I heard you before reading you Dennis. I made a few doodle when I couldn't get things sorted in my minds.

I'll perhaps update the doodle thread this evening.

Nope. I made that drink up at least a decade before moving to Australia.

I wouldn't be so sure of that.

Don't forget that BAF is still a student ^^

I haven't been a student in almost a year.

He's still a student in the school of holding his own.

Pwned by CGamesPlay ^^

I don't need to hold my own. That's what all them bitches and hoes are for.

Woooo prétentieux va ! ^^

I bet this guy was thinking somthing like that.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/woman-survives-attack-killer-stored-body-freezer/story?id=14915063&page=2

Just a note because I feel like the few next 3 days are going to be a real pain for me.

Just wish me courage, they're all going to hit me ...

Good luck!

Good luck!

Bon courage !

Good luck!

Per aspera ad astra Gul

boucle la ceinture

Strap on your seat belt

Just so you guys know, telling a girl you don't want to have kids with her is the one of the worse things you could ever say to a girl. I am almost 98% sure you will be cheated on for saying anything even related to this. there are girls that will go as far as to steal the condom full of sperm and try to inject them self with it to get pregnant.

Thank you for that delightful image Piccolo.

I am talk from fist hand experience.

used condom and a turkey baster.
when she says she want to go to the bath room make sure she dost not take the condom with her, or at less be smart follow her and watch what she is doing.

Piccolo, don't you know it's not safe to use your Sex Stare^TM on mortal women?

Only Saians can handle that...

That's why all the women you meet want to have your babies...

Depends on whether it's "I don't want kids" or "I want kids but not with you." The second is a relationship-killer no matter what, the first one isn't if she also doesn't want to have kids. If she does though... well, you may both be better off looking for another relationship anyway.

It's pretty simple: just have a vasectomy and don't tell your woman. When she gets so desperate that she wants to adopt, just commit a felony so the state won't let you.

How about a nice " I dont think I should have kids right now."

Even thats a killer

Another relationship ender:

{"name":"Wish+you+were+her.gif","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/5\/9\/59cda7e12a5f2bfe66f0c968c784b61a.png","w":400,"h":285,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/5\/9\/59cda7e12a5f2bfe66f0c968c784b61a"}

EDIT:

She used your fist?

A girly I've been chasing just told me she loves another guy. Now I have no girly to chase .

This thread is full of fail.

Honestly what else did you expect?

Despite my extreme good looks and rapist wit, I've been single for years. Still, could be worse, I could be...err...nope, couldn't be much worse.

I wasn't just talking about myself. Gull dropped a bomb on his marriage. Trent's girl loves someone else, and I was so blinded by love I didn't realize how she would react so much differently than I would have to the same letter. What did I expect? Nothing, but I hoped that we could at least be friends again if nothing more.

Nice, Dennis!

Thanks for all your good wishes, things were difficult but it's finally cruising.

We're still separating but now we try to do it with the less hurt possible. We know there still will be hurt without us to add some more.

It was hard, but it's going. Merci.

Trentg, I think we found a girl for you to chase ;o

*runs*

Yeah, he should strike quick while she's still married.

Enfoirés ^^

Dennis, I love that picture hahahahaha

allegro fail

This should be the new logo. Allegro, the saddest game programming library in the world.

Well, some updates on my situation:

Even if we try it's impossible to live under the same roof without her to try to crush me a day on two.

I'm currently actively searching for a little flat to rent. I hope I'll have one soon, even if it's shitty.

We have some times when she's able to talk to me, others when she can just shout at me.

Hell, it's still going to be hell for a while. Let's hope everything will roll soon.

BTW I don't feel like I should go back with her. I'm just a little bit sad about all the things still to kill/manage/think/forget.

And I just near killed my space key. Should stop hitting the keyboard so hard.

EDIT: And if there were people feeling strange because I deactivated my FB account, don't. I'm feeling OK. It was just easier to just cut the account rather than bearing everyone advices.

I would do the same. But you can count on us on a.cc. Every advice we give is just a piece of shit. No reason to cut this account.

Does it also apply to the advice not to cut this account?

A.cc is my web nest, and I love all allegroits, just because they can help me with message like this one:

"But you can count on us on a.cc. Every advice we give is just a piece of shit."

It shouldn't help me in any way, but it also has stolen a big smile from me when I read it ;-)

Dennis your crying gator is THE winner of the topic ^^

Edit: BTW things are keeping going on, with and without hurts. Flat is for Saturday at least, and all the other points regarding our current flat have been talked.

At least when she does not shout, Alex is kind of a nice and strong woman. I really hope things will go better for her with someone else quickly (as for me). She deserves it.

... found this in my travels on the Intarwebbingmeshnets:
old flames burning

13 years.

just wanted to let you guys know that I am awesome. really, i am.

k thanx

A serious grudge ? She can just already have a life and not want him to interfere.

Hope everything works out for you and Alex... You are both very kind people who deserve the best.

Good to see that everyone else is still alive and well.

Is anyone interested in writing a 'punch Yves in the face' game for stress relief?

"Picture or it hasn't happened"

I saw her IRL. She IS the queen of the universe. No picts needed ^^

She doesn't specify which universe, though

So who's queen of the multiverse?

Which multiverse?

{"name":"11856_queen_2b.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/c\/d\/cd9d493cea796e7bd10011872a6b6fe5.jpg","w":397,"h":393,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/c\/d\/cd9d493cea796e7bd10011872a6b6fe5"}

Queen.

So, I totally had massive relationship drama last night. I'm going to refrain from posting it on the internet.

Those guys look incurably British, don't they?

Why would the queen be anything but British?

I'm totally going to post mine.

I've been in a relationship for most of this year. It's had its high points and its low points, as I'm sure all relationships do. We're different in many ways but similar in others, and it's difficult to know how much the differences matter. It's also worth mentioning that it's long-distance, with me in the Cambridge area and her in Berlin. We met in an orchestra while she was temporarily in Cambridge, and we've both visited each other a couple of times each since. A recurring theme is that we're not sure how our lives can ultimately converge, but neither of us wants to accept that.

It's been low lately, and I've been wanting to give other people a chance. There's someone in the orchestra who is nice to me and generally extremely attractive - and equally nice to other people. You know the type: she'll eventually choose someone and accidentally lead a lot of people on in the process without meaning to, and most of us should just accept that it's not worth the stress. Nevertheless, feelings are difficult to ignore, you know?

I discussed my doubts about my existing relationship with my existing relationshipee. She values honesty and understands situations like this, and asked if there was anyone else, so I told the truth and she couldn't fault me for it. Nevertheless, it does mean we've all but broken up, and now I won't get to share with her the wonderful Rachmaninov concert that doesn't seem so wonderful any more.

The feelings for the other girl have now somewhat gone and I'm just feeling stupid. On the plus side, at least I have now experienced the other side of the rebound situation, and would understand better if a girl in a similar position ever messed me around.^[1]

Maybe I should just tell her how I now feel and say I'm really sorry and feel stupid and want her to come.

Pro tip: Don't tell her about the other girl. What's the point? Every guy has to lie to his woman, telling her she's the most beautiful person in the world, he doesn't find any other woman attractive, blah, blah, blah.

You do not get points for being honest.

You're the wisest person in the world, Matthew.

You are a fast learner! If I were a woman, and you were my lover, then that lie would make me very happy.

If you're not ready to play Xanatos speed chess (with the desired outcome being the preservation of the relationship) you're not ready for a relationship. You'll just end up hurting yourself and/or your partner.

You don't get points for being honest, but it depends on the girl. You can lose points for lying when it comes to some girls. My wife hates when I tell her that because she knows all guys look at other women. Being honest with my wife is safer than lying and her knowing it cause she knows how to make me miserable when she is mad at me.

In other words your wife owns you.

Who wear the panties ? ;-p

Who doesn't?

I know girls who don't

I must have a trip to spain and meet you Oscar ^^

Hey Matthew, I think the honesty did good things for our relationship in the end.

And I formed some opinions about the other girl too

tu me causes plus? Mais, sinon bonne chance hein

Tu crois que tu es l'autre fille ?

Mais non, c'est ta soeur ça

Je parlais a Gull; mais je suis contente pour toi et ma sœur

Je ne suis pas! C'est des conneries!

French? At least make it German, that's as far as my knowledge of foreign languages goes

Courtesy of Google translate :

I don't speak google.

Non Manjue, c'est just que j'ai désactivé mon compte FB et que je n'ai pas de téléphone dans mon studio.

J'ai envoyé un MP à Diana, je crois qu'elle ne l'a pas encore consulté.

Je t'en prépare un pti dans l'après midi ^^

je crois pas non plus. Mais maintenant plus d'excuses pour ne pas venir a Toronto!

Incroyable, la français de google est plus mauvais de ma français.
Et ma français est très, très mauvais.

Aside from ma français -> mon français and la français -> le français, your french is pretty good actually.

You just have issues with masculin and feminine which is tricky for anyone:

Incroyable, le français de google est plus mauvais que mon français.
Et mon français est très, très mauvais.

So is 'plus mauvais' OK? I thought it had to be 'pire'.

Pire is better, plus mauvais I'd say is slang for worse. In English 'more bad' would be unacceptable but in French I hear people sometime say plus mauvais so it must be acceptable as slang.

Si c'est pire c'est encore plus que très très mauvais, vu que c'est pire encore, Bruce ^^