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Idiots like this will ruin VR
Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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I can't believe you guys are actually FOR a lame loser like BigBro442 getting his jollies off at someone else's expense. Are you really gonna sit there and say he was in the right? Or that his actions were reasonable?

I don't understand why they're defending his actions either. It's not appropriate behavior, and it is largely because of the factor of anonymity.

When I read the OP, I thought "BigBro442" was the idiot he was referring to, not the writer. She didn't do anything wrong or idiotic, and there has yet any convincing claim of the sort.

In any case, games will absolutely need controls in place to prevent people from being subjected to abuse like that. Shitty people like BigBro442 are in fact abundant in the gaming world, and every other group. Shitty people are everywhere, not just on the Internet. They're just tend to max out their shittyness like this because of the anonymity and lack of recourse.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Felix-The-Ghost
Member #9,729
April 2008
avatar

I just messaged the developer on YT. He has shown great attention to player feedback in the past, though there appears to be a brief hiatus in development at the moment.

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Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
avatar

Maybe you should read my response before you call me a top notch moron again. The only moron here is you, if you think teaching kids morals is a bad thing.

Fascinating! I've made it clear both times that I was referring to people with those views. You claim you don't have those views, yet keep taking it as a personal attack. Whereas you flat out called me a moron and all I did was smirk when I read it.

Congrats on missing the point. People say to teach them those values to end those crimes, but fail to realize that they already teach those values and we still have rape, murder, and theft. Look at the Capone family, parents were strict Catholic, very moral parents from what I recall from history yet I believe their sons became criminals. Just teaching morals isn't going to curve any of the crimes, history shows this, but people still parrot that teaching morals somehow magically will fix crimes.

Quote:

It's clear he was being lewd, whether there was anything there to actually physically grope or not. It made her uncomfortable, and it was harassment.

I can't believe you guys are actually FOR a lame ass loser like BigBro442 getting his jollies off at someone else's expense. Are you really gonna sit there and say he was in the right? Or that his actions were reasonable?

I can't believe you are blindly believing her claims. Upon searching no one can even find a user named BigBro442, but if she is so uncomfortable and took the time to write a blog entry outing the guy, why lie about his username to protect him? Gameranx's Editor-in-Chief even commented on how he was unable to find any user by that name. Can't condemn the actions of a person that may not even exist.

You highlighted what is wrong. A woman makes a claim and everyone rushes to fix it without trying to even verify if it is true. This is what pisses me off most, parts of it make it clear the writer of it is telling a bullshit story in order to paint gamers in a negative light, but people are rushing to her side.

For example:

Quote:

"Stop!" I cried. I must have laughed from the embarrassment and the ridiculousness of the situation. Women, after all, are supposed to be cool, and take any form of sexual harassment with a laugh. But I still told him to stop.

The bold line makes the article seem agenda driven instead of fact driven. The second thing that makes me question it is the reactions she claims her husband and brother-in-law had. When my wife gets assholes bothering her on Facebook or other sites I run to her aid to cuss the guy out, hell I've even made accounts on sites I don't care for just to go defend her. I have trouble believing her husband just sat there laughing while she was yelling "Stop".

Then this:

Quote:

As it progressed, my joking comments toward BigBro442 turned angrier, and were peppered with frustrated obscenities.

She told him to stop, but then started making joking comments toward him while he was continuing to do it?

Lastly:

Quote:

I wasn't as experienced a player as BigBro442. Everywhere I ran, he appeared beside me, ready to grope as soon as the zombie wave was over.

Unless it is a feature of the VR device, I've not seen any QuiVR gameplay that has a "teleport to username" feature. That leads me to believe she is either exaggerating or making it up.

Per her Medium profile:

Quote:

Jordan Belamire
Author of the upcoming novel, Swaying Magnolia, an adult f/f romance. User Researcher by day, author by night. Fueled by dark chocolate.

Her being an author makes me question it even more.

After the UVA Rape claim being false, I'm no longer going to give a woman the benefit of doubt without evidence to back it up. Them being the "fairer sex" doesn't make them 100% honest or factual.

Quote:

You may not be able to take anything with you, but you can have rewards waiting for you when you die.

I'm atheist so that means nothing to me.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

The whole point of video games is to be able to do things you can't normally do in real life. That's a healthy expression of oneself and a healthy way to engage in that behavior, which we're naturally driven to do. It's no surprise that the most popular media is sold with sex and violence. Our species is hard wired to enjoy sex and violence.

VR takes this to a whole new level. Being "groped" in VR is no worse than being "teabagged" in Call of Duty. It doesn't hurt anyone and somebody is getting a kick out of it. Hell, if groping people in VR can help an actual rapist avoid offending in the real world it could actually help society. Unless women are going to claim that VR "groping" is ever bit as traumatic as real life, in which case they're kind of again sabotaging the narrative of women being every bit as capable as men. Apparently women aren't that strong after all!

Append:

Imagine this instead. Two guys are playing VR together. One of them starts talking homoerotic on the mic and starts making homosexual movements with the other. Neither of them, or certainly not the receiver, is homosexual. Is this man going to cry rape? Or is he just going to call this guy names and either get on with the game or quit and join a new room?

Append2:

Also, from the sounds of it (her joking with the "perpetrator", etc.) it sounds exactly like she was sending mixed messages. Women don't typically understand how men think and certainly don't understand when they're leading a man on. It's hardly a man's fault if a woman is sending the message, "this is fun". Again, "no" doesn't always mean no. If it did, male and female interactions would be a lot easier than they are.

Felix-The-Ghost
Member #9,729
April 2008
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bamccaig said:

Being "groped" in VR is no worse than being "teabagged" in Call of Duty.

I disagree. In VR it must be harder to "distance" yourself from whatever is happening, since by design it is made to feel like you are physically there. Additionally, instead of a non-changing animation you could manipulate the hands of the avatar in much more provocative ways.

I do agree with perhaps what you were implying, no physical harm can be done directly over the internet, but I think it is folly to not at least consider the mental effects of this scenario to different people, especially those not already calloused from years of virtual experiences (e.g. the typical adult male gamer).

I can't vouch for the author's article but nevertheless I think this scenario is something for VR developers to consider when allowing interaction between players.

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Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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I can't vouch for the author's article but nevertheless I think this scenario is something for VR developers to consider when allowing interaction between players.

Developers usually take that into account already, but their measures are never considered enough. Even if the game has measures in place people still complain about them. GTA V Online for PS4/Xbox One comes to mind as being recently under fire for that. It offers the ability to mute annoying verbally abusive players and PS4 allows you to block other PS4 owners. The game even rewards good behavior in way of $2k, but if you are constantly blowing up players cars in the main lobby you get marked as a bad gamer and restricted to a server with other bad gamers. People were calling for Rockstar to ban players completely.

Even if QuiVR made it possible to for you to not see the player visually they would still complain instead of using the feature. Counter Strike I believe has a mute option for gamers, but instead of using it women gamers have complained about the offensive language and expected the game developers to do something else to satisfy them. There have been videos and articles on this sort of thing where when that feature is brought up they reply with something like "Yeah, but that is only sweeping it under the rug."

The only thing that will satisfy them will the be complete shutdown of the game industry then they can go back to attacking music and movies as their scapegoat for violence and "atrocities against women".

If the game induces bullying, harassment, and violation of other people's rights, then it needs to be moderated. Perhaps the games should be changed.

Except the games that people are having issues with have none of that. UN Women went after Japanese games fictional women and how they were represented. Upon which Japan told them no and commented on how they were wasting resources fighting for fictional women instead of fighting for real women that actually need it (like Saudi women). Also seen demands for Mario Bros and Legend of Zelda to be banned. It's interesting that you say induce bullying, yet ignore that when I was growing up gamers were the ones being bullied just for enjoying video games. In the 30-some years I've been alive, that hasn't changed.
This was a writer/"reporter" for Gawker media:
{"name":"CqNt13jWAAAUmNr.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/c\/d\/cdb9e23189b04e702ee21c078360ed88.jpg","w":590,"h":322,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/c\/d\/cdb9e23189b04e702ee21c078360ed88"}CqNt13jWAAAUmNr.jpg

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Disclaimer: I skipped most of the discussion, I also haven't bothered reading this article or the article colleagues posted in an office chat this morning. I also don't approve the behaviour of the said assaulter.

But come on, how many times have we been killed in an online game? Let alone violated, t-bagged, sweared at and I don't know what else. You don't like that, you don't play that, simple as that. If you run into a griever (and there's many of them out there) you just skip the round and find some other stranger to play with.

This whole thing gets more attention that in deserves. Yes, there are people out there who haven't grown out of puberty and behave themselves as jerks. Big surprise. I bet that he wouldn't do that in real life, I also bet that had he done that he would either receive a slap on his face or kick in the nuts.

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Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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It gets more attention than it deserves for sure -- I think Mr. Phoenix could pick better causes than this. Blowing it out of proportion and making this a bigger deal than it needs to be is actually just feeding the flames.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

piccolo
Member #3,163
January 2003
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GTA V is not a child's game what's the problem with people expressing themselves.

wow
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i am who you are not am i

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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Yeah, I'm making a big deal over a possible bullshit story.

The devs implemented a 'fix' for her and her online presence disappeared almost instantly. Her twitter, domain (promoting her book), everything is suddenly gone.

From what I can tell, only Gameranx has tried to verify her story. Thought a few others were, but they gave up after Steam search showed no BigBro442 user. Everyone else just read it and blindly believed it.

Seen some staff of Mic and followers are all over Twitter discussing getting petitions going to get legislation in place for VR to make groping full on sexual assault instead of just harassment.

I'm the hysterical one though.

This thread shows the double standards in place between men and women. A woman makes a claim with zero evidence, but because it's not part of the game, it's harassment and everyone just listens and believes. Yet, in my hypothetical of people attacking me in a VR game where it isn't part of the game or being t-bagged in a FPS (which t-bagging isn't part of a FPS game design) I was told I was being hysterical. Apparently putting your VR hands on a avatars VR chest and crotch is harassment for women, but putting your VR balls in someone's VR face is just fine for men.

All it takes is a charismatic person and enough blind followers to make something stick in people's mind. Jack Thompson did this when he declared games make gamers violent. Even after being disbarred people still believe the lie he started and ignore the charts that showed juvenile crime was decreasing while games popularity was increasing. Look at every mass shooting and how they always claim it was because of games that they became killers or somehow had a connection to it. I've seen some argue they are training games, these people are usually morons that never shot a gun in real life and don't realize that there is no parallel between the two.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
avatar

bamccaig said:

The whole point of video games is to be able to do things you can't normally do in real life. That's a healthy expression of oneself and a healthy way to engage in that behavior, which we're naturally driven to do. It's no surprise that the most popular media is sold with sex and violence. Our species is hard wired to enjoy sex and violence.

And if you're playing offline by yourself, then fine, do whatever the hell you want. But when you're playing with real people, the fact that it's a game doesn't mean that your actions have no effects. Is it really that hard not to be a jerk?

Quote:

Imagine this instead. Two guys are playing VR together. One of them starts talking homoerotic on the mic and starts making homosexual movements with the other. Neither of them, or certainly not the receiver, is homosexual. Is this man going to cry rape? Or is he just going to call this guy names and either get on with the game or quit and join a new room?

The difference in your scenario is that the situation doesn't happen constantly to the guy. It's a rare occurrence that he can just shrug off. When the harassment is continual however, as it is for a lot of women, it isn't so easy to just "get on with it."

People seem to be over-reacting to this article. The author isn't asking for the industry to be regulated. The only think along those lines that she says is that some rules need to be made, and that's actually a fair statement. New technologies usually come with new sets of rules, and there's no reason why VR is any different. At least one person in this thread has also said that the author should have just reported the incident and moved on, but you can't report someone if they're not doing anything wrong under the current rule set. So yes, rules do need to be made so that the behaviour can be reported.

edit:

This thread shows the double standards in place between men and women. A woman makes a claim with zero evidence, but because it's not part of the game, it's harassment and everyone just listens and believes. Yet, in my hypothetical of people attacking me in a VR game where it isn't part of the game or being t-bagged in a FPS (which t-bagging isn't part of a FPS game design) I was told I was being hysterical. Apparently putting your VR hands on a avatars VR chest and crotch is harassment for women, but putting your VR balls in someone's VR face is just fine for men.

It isn't just fine for men to do that one another. But just because we're mostly dumb and lazy enough to bother doing anything about it we shouldn't begrudge women the chance to do something to actually change shitty behaviour.

And yes, it is shitty behaviour. Anyone whose idea of fun is ruining other people's good time does't deserve to be allowed around other people.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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LennyLen said:

It isn't just fine for men to do that one another. But just because we're mostly dumb and lazy enough to bother doing anything about it we shouldn't begrudge women the chance to do something to actually change shitty behaviour.

Apparently not to some as it seems some consider t-bagging (or tea bagging, whichever you prefer) a perfectly normal part of celebrating a kill even in VR. Should we blame American Football celebrations for why people assume that is perfectly acceptable?

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
avatar

Apparently not to some as it seems some consider t-bagging (or tea bagging, whichever you prefer) a perfectly normal part of celebrating a kill even in VR.

To some people (and a lot more than you'd think), it's normal to go out on the weekend and start fights just for fun. Just because they think it's ok doesn't mean it is.

Quote:

Should we blame American Football celebrations for why people assume that is perfectly acceptable?

Maybe. To be honest, I don't understand American culture enough to if your Football culture is a cause of the problem or a symptom.

Felix-The-Ghost
Member #9,729
April 2008
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To my knowledge, people don't celebrate football with tea-bagging :o

Then again I'm pretty far removed from the stigma of American "culture".

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Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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LennyLen said:

Just because they think it's ok doesn't mean it is.

Point is that legally there is no difference, but this thread shows that once gender is brought in people gloss over a man's claim. "A woman's VR avatar was allegedly touched inappropriately? Sexual Harassment! A guy's VR was tea bagged? Not the same thing at all."

It's not laziness of men, it is how we are taught to rush to a woman's defense. Fortunately all the stories that blindly told the story of a woman being attacked, raped, etc. and then finding out it was 100% false has made me completely ignore that teaching. Look at the UVA Rape case, Wu, Quinn, Sarkeesian, or even more recent Chelsea Cain and see how people don't even wait for facts before crucifying someone in the court of public opinion.

See, the way journalism is supposed to work is the writer of the story gives both sides of the story while remaining as neutral as possible. Look at majority of the stories surrounding the above mentioned instances. They all are one sided for each person. The UVA case only told the alleged victim's story without contacting the fraternity. Wu, Quinn, and Sarkeesian stories all paint them as victims of harassment, but to my knowledge has never provided any proof of said harassment which would be a key point of any article that is supposed to give the facts. Then recently Chelsea Cain wrote for the comic Mockingbird, but she forced feminist agenda into it and the fans didn't buy it, but instead of admitting it was wrong she quickly played the victim, declared comics industry sexist and misogynist before deleting her account. I suspect all the articles about her will be one sided too and make comic fans look just as horrible as gamers.

Look at how the games media treats gamers. Gamers are consumers, so the media should be writing articles to give information to consumers to make a decision. No Man's Sky is the recent example of the media forsaking the consumers. No Man's Sky developer kept appearing in interviews promoting the game and making grandiose claims. When the game launched with almost none of the claims or people proving his claims wrong he quickly stopped replying to inquiries. Games media took to blaming gamers saying they built it up too much in their minds instead of taking responsibility for promoting and taking part in over hyping the game and not calling the developers out on their false promises.

This thread shows the same problem though. A woman writes a one sided personal blog entry claiming a gamer did wrong doing. Outs his username. People start falling all over themselves to believe her, apologizing to her for his actions, and even demanding action from the developers. When people try to verify facts, they can't find any user going by BigBro442 and she suddenly shuts down all her internet presence (including her site promoting her upcoming novel). Even in this thread people are condemning the actions based on her word and nothing else. On social media people are calling for petitions to get legislation changed to include VR interactions.

People say this isn't a big deal, except game developers are starting to condemn all gamers based off the words of women that have had no proof of their claims. People working for Nintendo have condemned gamers, people from Bioware (Manveer Heir went on a racist rant against white people and condemned gamers a few months back), Tim Schafer has condemned gamers. Bethesda, Rockstar, and Ubisoft are the only companies I've seen say they are for gamers. Ubisoft even posted a pic of their female staff members to show the industry wasn't anti-woman like Wu, Quinn, and Sarkeesian continue to claim.

Red Dead Redemption 2 just had a reveal teaser trailer with no details about the game. Sites went to attacking the game for not having any female outlaw characters to play as. We have hit a point where if you don't agree with the games media about what direction the industry needs to take you are labeled all the fun names and told you are terrible for liking the games that don't meet their "diverse" standards. Never thought I would see the day where diversity was the new buzzword to force control onto people.

We are approaching the point where games are no longer the creation of the developer, but rather a creation to meet a checklist to appease the morally offended.

[APPEND] Well I was right, they are doing one sided arguments blaming comic fans instead of forcing feminist ideals into the issue or poor sells due to it.

Alleged pages from Mockingbird:
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"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Felix-The-Ghost
Member #9,729
April 2008
avatar

You can change your name in Steam at will. I'm not that familiar with Steam honestly but if this person changed their name I'd think a search wouldn't return results.

You keep mentioning tea-bagging in VR. Are you incorrectly referring to CoD as virtual reality or is there actually a VR game where you can shove your crotch in someone's face? QuiVR is the first multiplayer VR game I've personally seen so far.

The whole issue (aside from your points about women) is virtual reality is designed to be perceived as reality. There would be no perceived distinction between the physical player and avatar when you are wearing the helmet.

I believe this quote from the developer's official response says it all.

Quote:

The reality of the experience, of being “present,” makes everything more powerful than on a flat, 2-dimensional screen. The medical community has been exploring the use of VR to help treat PTSD, phobias, and phantom limb syndrome. If VR has the power to have lasting positive impact because of that realism, the opposite has to be taken seriously as well.

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LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
avatar

Point is that legally there is no difference, but this thread shows that once gender is brought in people gloss over a man's claim.

Why does it always need to be about men vs women. The fact that this happened to a woman is irrelevant. It shouldn't happen to anyone.

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
avatar

You can change your name in Steam at will.

Yes, but there are services out there that allow you to search for a previous name and find the user. So far I've not seen that username spring up anywhere other than the articles about her blog.

LennyLen said:

Why does it always need to be about men vs women.

You have it backwards. It's women vs men because it is women that are calling for equality, expect things changed especially for them, while saying men have toxic masculinity and deal with the things that happen to them. Let's not forget that women wanted to make men having to spread their legs due to our testicle an illegal or at the least offense with consequences.

video

video

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video

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

Felix-The-Ghost
Member #9,729
April 2008
avatar

So far I've not seen that username spring up anywhere other than the articles about her blog.

(First time actually searching for the name)

==========================
<--- The ghost with the most!
---------------------------
[Website] [Youtube]

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
avatar

Yes, all troll accounts made after the article went viral. This was a screencap from October 22 posted by Gameranx Editor-in-Chief Ian Miles Cheong:
{"name":"CvadgKkUAAE8Q_P.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/f\/a\/fa08abc4cee88a5ca6ee383cb27f6b0c.jpg","w":537,"h":325,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/f\/a\/fa08abc4cee88a5ca6ee383cb27f6b0c"}CvadgKkUAAE8Q_P.jpg

Those account name changes range from October 22 evening to as late as October 27.

Side note: The original Medium article was suddenly deleted.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

Those account name changes range from October 22 evening to as late as October 27.

I also checked them for QuiVr in the game library. None of them have it (2 of them couldn't be checked because the profiles are private, but both have VAC bans from like 2 or 3 years ago :P).

The Red Pill documentary sounds up my alley. I'm annoyed that I can't seem to download it at all. I hope they release it to the public soon (maybe Netflix).

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
avatar

I use steamid.eu because it lists the usernames for each account.

There are three private accounts on the list now.
https://steamid.eu/profile/76561198069824990
https://steamid.eu/profile/76561198087192031
https://steamid.eu/profile/76561198001309440

For The Red Pill documentary, I've contacted Cassie Jaye about distribution after the select screening was over. I'm hoping to hear back from her on that in a few days because the site really doesn't clarify (from what I've seen skimming it) about what the plan is after the select screenings are done.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
END OF LINE

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

I think that because it's an indie film and the topic is politically incorrect that she won't be able to fund distribution (but I guess that depends on how far the KickStarter money goes; I bet not far). It'll probably be a challenge to get back their initial investment. But I imagine it'll eventually be released as a free download if they can't distribute it (but I bet Netflix would take it at least).

Specter Phoenix
Member #1,425
July 2001
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When I think the bullshit can't get any funnier, this comes along: http://archive.is/ApkMK

According to it, Anita Sarkeesian is apparently a game developer now and apparently comic book fans not liking a feminist writer putting blatant feminist ideologies in their favorite comic makes them worse than gamers who don't want feminist forcing the same ideologies and political correctness into their favorite games. Though, I don't recall GamerGate ever attacking Ashley Judd, but I do recall Felicia Day claiming it did while proclaiming herself the queen of the nerds.

"Can't a man even talk to himself without being interrupted?" -Krull(1983)
"Through vengence I was born. Through war I was trained. Through love I was found. Through death I was released. Through release I was given a purpose." -- Specter Phoenix
"Programming == AWESOME the rest is just tools to accomplish it."
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raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

According to it, Anita Sarkeesian is apparently a game developer now

I had a double take at that part, wondering where she suddenly gained this credential. There are plenty of great female comic book heroes, but SJW ideology is not something that makes them so.



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