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Absolute proof that GOD EXIST (Pretty Cool)
Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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That statement simply indicated I was discontinuing the discussion with you, Edgar (and it was a simple summary of how I felt). There was no cop out because I simply don't want to continue the discussion (and there's no obligation for me to) for many reasons. I would like to note I find it rather out of place for you to become aggressive and rude, when in other discussions/threads we've participated in (non-religious, admittedly), this was never the case. Evidently I was mistaken.

The hypocrite sling is indeed insulting because I correct my worldview and beliefs when objective and credible information proves otherwise. This is necessary for any consequential thought or experience I have (within some reason, of course*).

You, and much of everyone else (religious or otherwise), can reasonably survive with a worldview built on a foundation of sand and constructed out of straw because you don't have incredibly bizarre and irrational thoughts and experiences haunting you day in and day out caused by some mental illness. If you did, however, you would have a terrible prognosis, because you don't have the means or ability to correct your own behavior. Just like most others.

On the other hand, it's simply not possible in my case. I have to apply a much more strict rational process in my life. For example, I believe there are eldritch beings manipulating certain events in my life for some greater plan. At the same time, I am aware these events are simply coincidences caused by personal attributes (e.g., I gravitate towards darker and obscure media) and observation bias. So when I read "I Feel Sick" series by Vasquez a few months back, I simultaneously believe 1) that the creation of this work was guided by eldritch beings and events in my own life were manipulated so I would eventually read the series so said beings could threaten me, and 2) that it was a complete coincidence caused by my previous exposure to Vasquez's work (Invader Zim on Nickelodeon back in the... 2000s? I think) and that there are no eldritch beings (for many, many reasons).

I can't stress how exhausting, stressful, and even emotionally/mentally painful keeping this fragile balancing act up. How would you feel if you believed hundreds of contradictory beliefs, and were completely aware of the contradictions? Keeping my thoughts and behaviors in order is struggle enough. Sometimes I think I'm doing a good job, except when confronted with contradictory and irrational behaviors/beliefs of people around me who are otherwise able, functional, and normal.

So yes, I do take offense when the very attributes that specifically enable me to function somewhat reasonably in familiar scenarios/situations are removed from my description as a form of insult (I'm not sure of the words or phrasing here, sorry if it's confusing). Because it's not true and it completely removes the daily struggles I face as someone at a gross disadvantage to you or most others.

You and and whoever else can keep up the (admittedly pointless) discussion, but I'd like to clarify that particular portion. There's a difference between a simple, aimless insult (e.g., the majority in this thread) and a targeted attack like that. Most insults are in the former (even insulting my intelligence or lack thereof would be), only a very few are in the latter.

And yes, I'm aware you most probably didn't know how that would affect me. I can't expect people to know, just like I can't be expected to know similar things with others. But that doesn't make it any less upsetting.

*: E.g., keeping certain lights on and having a flashlight handy is simply easier and less stressful than overcoming a constant fear of threatening shadows. The end result is insignificant (and not complying is probably worse).

edit: phrasing.

Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
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I quite like that every time Neil shares a video it's with "I doubt atheists will watch this".

I'm going off him quite quickly.

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Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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That is why God brought about a new covenant, based on grace, and not on the law

1 John 2:3-4 (NIV)
We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

2 Peter 3:17 (NIV)
Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.

Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV)
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ and then i will declare to them, ‘i never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Romans 2:13 (NIV)
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

1 John 3:4 (NIV)
Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

1 John 3:6 (NIV)
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. no one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 (NIV)
Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.

Matthew 19:17 (NIV)
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."

Luke 16:17 (NIV)
"It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law."

James 1:25 (NIV)
But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

James 2:17 (NKJV)
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

1 John 3:21-22 (NIV)
Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him.

1 John 5:3 (NIV)
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. and his commands are not burdensome

And of course, there are many, MANY more I could quote. I don't need to comment on them, they speak for themselves.

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

The 'god-by-design' argument has been easily invalidated by Dawkins and Hitchens

1) it is a circular argument. We humans happen to not know how these things came to be, we assign their creation to God, and then we prove there is a God because these things are designed.

2) it is a argument that simply displaces the question of who created the Universe. Who created God? that's the next question to answer, if we accept God created the Universe.

There is actually a very simple argument on why it is impossible for God to exist: any being that is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent cannot create or destroy anything, because these actions will destroy those properties.

-my 2 cents.

piccolo
Member #3,163
January 2003
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@axilmar
Watch the last video you will get your answers in logic

wow
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i am who you are not am i

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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@Aaron Bolyard
I apologize Aaron. I was not intending to make a personal attack on you, only to make you aware that what you were saying applied to your situation as well.

@Neil
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. What do all those verses have to do with anything but the law? You're totally neglecting why Christ died, because no one is perfect enough to obey every law fully. Otherwise, why would we need forgiveness of sins? The law by itself cannot save anyone. You should read Romans 7 and 8 if you want to understand what I am saying.

Romans 8:1-4 NRSV said:

Life in the Spirit

8 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit[a] of life in Christ Jesus has set you[b] free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin,[c] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Everyone sins. All have fallen short of the glory of God. We are saved through faith in Christ and through the grace of God.

Romans 3:21-26 said:

Righteousness through Faith

21 But now, apart from law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ[d] for all who believe. For there is no distinction, 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; 24 they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement[e] by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus.

axilmar said:

The 'god-by-design' argument has been easily invalidated by Dawkins and Hitchens

1) it is a circular argument. We humans happen to not know how these things came to be, we assign their creation to God, and then we prove there is a God because these things are designed.

2) it is a argument that simply displaces the question of who created the Universe. Who created God? that's the next question to answer, if we accept God created the Universe.

I don't believe I've been using the argument you speak of in your first point. I am using God's word as proof of his existence. It rings true to all those who listen to it with understanding. And to the people who say there are too many religious books for everyone's God to be real, well you're quite right. You should pick one and see if what it says holds merit and proves itself to be true. I suggest you start with the Bible to avoid wasting your time.

Who created the universe? Why don't you ask Him?

Colossians 1:15-23 said:

The Supremacy of Christ

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in[h] him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in[i] him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.

21 And you who were once estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled[j] in his fleshly body[k] through death, so as to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him— 23 provided that you continue securely established and steadfast in the faith, without shifting from the hope promised by the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven. I, Paul, became a servant of this gospel.

axilmar said:

There is actually a very simple argument on why it is impossible for God to exist: any being that is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent cannot create or destroy anything, because these actions will destroy those properties.

-my 2 cents.

Your argument needs explanation. How would creation destroy omniscience, omnipresence, or omnipotence?

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Neil Roy said:

Your response is always predictable... and old.

That nicely sums up this entire discussion. Both sides of it.

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

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--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
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Niunio
Member #1,975
March 2002
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I am using God's word as proof of his existence.

(I'm pretty sure I may be punished for the next question.)

So Mr. Holmes also existed, doesn't he?

Remember that books, all books, any book, were written by humans. Even if God exists and He dictated that book, it was actually written by humans.

For example: John Smith. He read the Golden Book. And if you believe Moses read the Tablets of the Law, you can't say that John Smith didn't read the Golden Book. Or that Muhammad wasn't inspired by Gabriel to write the Quran.

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Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Niunio said:

(I'm pretty sure I may be punished for the next question.)

So Mr. Holmes also existed, doesn't he?

Remember that books, all books, any book, were written by humans. Even if God exists and He dictated that book, it was actually written by humans.

For example: John Smith. He read the Golden Book. And if you believe Moses read the Tablets of the Law, you can't say that John Smith didn't read the Golden Book. Or that Muhammad wasn't inspired by Gabriel to write the Quran.

Mr. Holmes may not exist, but the author, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, most certainly does (did, if you believe people die when they die) exist.

Did Gabriel write the Quran? I can't answer that. I would say no offhand, but I have never read it before, and I don't know what it really contains. As to why it is included in the Muslim panoply and not in Christian writings, I would say it is because it wasn't from God. Yes, I know I just upset 1.7 billion people, but I'm not sorry. Satan is just as real as God, and he wants to deceive as many people as he can into following him instead of God. He even tried to prevent the birth of Christ by seducing Eve (who then gave birth to their son, Cain, the first murderer). But God gave Adam and Eve another son, Seth, through which Christ came.

What it all boils down to is this. Pick a religion, read it's tenets, and see for yourself whether what it says holds true or not. I have read a good portion of the Bible and none of it has ever proved false to me. God's promises are true, and He hears my prayers and answers them, and so I choose to believe what He says in the Bible (despite being dictated by human hands).

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

It's somehow sad to see those two paragraphs together: such conviction alongside such resignation. I'm not sorry I just insulted every other religion, but by all means, of course I accept that this is an individual thing. On the plus side, I suppose it's finally an answer to that question you ignored earlier ;)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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My apologies Bruce, I wasn't really trying to ignore you.

By all means offer religion to people who could benefit from it, but leave out the part about punishment.

That would be irresponsible and promote a Christianity that is false.

Neil, on a more serious note than my aeroplane troll, I think my view on religion is that it can be a valuable personal belief system that doesn't really impact one's choices in life. (We know that atheists and religious people can both behave ethically and not.) With that in mind, what would you say is the personal value you gain from believing?

Others who have been arguing for their religion in this thread are also welcome to answer this question.

A personal belief system that doesn't affect the choices you make in life is worthless. Faith without works is dead.

As to the question that I haven't answered (because it is somewhat insulting, and when you say it like that you are implying there is no value in my belief), I will say this. Everlasting life. Forgiveness. Blessings. God's Love. A place in His Kingdom. An end to the suffering and evil of the present age on Earth. Confidence. Rewards here and now and later on as well. Wisdom. Help when I need it. God's uplifting Hand holding me up when I am weak.

such conviction alongside such resignation. I'm not sorry I just insulted every other religion, but by all means, of course I accept that this is an individual thing. On the plus side, I suppose it's finally an answer to that question you ignored earlier ;)

Like I said before, someone's right and someone's wrong. And nothing anyone has said in this thread has refuted any thing I've quoted or anything that I believe in. The Bible and science don't disagree if you know how to read the Bible with understanding.

Given the infinite nature of the universe and the infinitesimal chance of life existing in the first place I suppose a person could reason that it evens out to about a chance of 1. But I've seen all the wisdom that the Bible holds. It has knowledge that applies to every aspect of life and I fully believe that it is divinely inspired. The teachings of Jesus are divine wisdom, and they come from the Father.

Mark 1:21-28 said:

The Man with an Unclean Spirit

21 They went to Capernaum; and when the sabbath came, he entered the synagogue and taught. 22 They were astounded at his teaching, for he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes. 23 Just then there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit, 24 and he cried out, “What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God.” 25 But Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Be silent, and come out of him!” 26 And the unclean spirit, convulsing him and crying with a loud voice, came out of him. 27 They were all amazed, and they kept on asking one another, “What is this? A new teaching—with authority! He[m] commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey him.” 28 At once his fame began to spread throughout the surrounding region of Galilee.

Matthew 7:24-29 said:

Hearers and Doers

24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock. 25 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act on them will be like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell—and great was its fall!”

28 Now when Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were astounded at his teaching, 29 for he taught them as one having authority, and not as their scribes.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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You're totally neglecting why Christ died

I'm no neglecting anything, read my reply again, I didn't say a word, I just quoted the bible. So, you're arguing against the authors who wrote those verses, not me. But from your reply, it is clear you understand what those verses are saying and somehow trying to claim I said it. That is precisely why I didn't comment, I only quoted the bible. You know what it says. It wasn't that said it, so do not try and state I am neglecting anything. :)

As for it being impossible to obey the law... seems like the bible disagrees with you...

Matthew 5:48 (NIV)
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matthew 19:21 (NIV)
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

As for the forgiveness of sins, yes, the forgiveness of past sins. Once you are forgiven you are expected to obey the law. Yes, the law cannot save you, that is grace. But grace doesn't negate the need for obedience, that's nonsense! And I already proved it by the clear verses I quoted which tell you to obey it.

Do you plan to ignore those verses which contradict the false doctrines you were taught? You can't pick and choose which verses you wish to obey.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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The way you quoted those verses it was basically as if you were stating that to be saved everyone has to perfectly follow the law. That's not possible, and I showed you clearly where it says that in the Bible. I never said that what I was saying contradicted anything you said, merely I was pointing out that you are not presenting the whole picture. Without context and without explanation, many things can be easily misinterpreted, and they often are.

Neil Roy said:

As for the forgiveness of sins, yes, the forgiveness of past sins. Once you are forgiven you are expected to obey the law. Yes, the law cannot save you, that is grace. But grace doesn't negate the need for obedience, that's nonsense! And I already proved it by the clear verses I quoted which tell you to obey it.

Do you plan to ignore those verses which contradict the false doctrines you were taught? You can't pick and choose which verses you wish to obey.

You're putting words in my mouth that weren't there. :/

The word "perfect" in Matthew 5:48 and Matthew 19:21 actually means 'complete'. See Strong's Greek word 5046 here :

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5046&t=KJV

It means to follow through and fulfill everything as fully as you can. You can't actually be perfect, as the verse I quoted clearly shows you :

Romans 3:23 NRSV said:

23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God;

Clearly, no one is perfect, so for the verse you quoted to make sense, you need to think about it a different way. 'Complete' makes more sense.

Hebrews 12:1-2 said:

The Example of Jesus

12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely,[a] and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the sake of[b] the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God.

We are perfected through Christ, not the law. As I said before, the law cannot save anyone. NOTE : I'm not saying to disobey it, just that by itself it is not enough to bring salvation.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Sorry Edgar, but the following verse pretty much sums it up for me...

1 John 2:3-4 (NIV)
We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

You can try dancing your way around the scriptures all day if you wish. You cannot change the meaning of them all. And this one is very clear about anyone that teaches that we do not need to obey the law.

Also...

2 Peter 3:17 (NIV)
Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.

...yes, I am definitely on my guard against the error of the lawless... you cannot cherry pick verses like that. The bible is clear and you are in error.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Neil, do you have trouble reading? I never said to disobey the law. I said that it cannot save anyone, because no one is capable of fully following it. God knows this, I quoted it before.

romans 8:3-4 said:

3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin,[c] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

The one cherry picking verses here is you. You seem to feel perfectly fine ignoring the verses I quote to you. And furthermore, you are making me out to be someone who has been brainwashed by false doctrine. I study the Bible just as much as you do. You're the one who isn't listening.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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I never said to disobey the law. I said that it cannot save anyone

Where did I say it could? The problem is, I see this by far too many "Christians" to justify grace only, no law, no obedience. And it is usually because they refuse to obey the 4th commandment. You cannot do away with one commandment, so they claim they are all done away with. Or they will claim that it is somehow "Jewish" only (even though the Jews were only 1 tribe out of 12, and Moses was not a Jew, he was a Levite). Plus we have the following verse which sums it up really well...

Ecclesiastes 12:13 (NIV)
Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.

...We are to 1) Fear God, 2) Keep His commandments and this is the duty of "all mankind" (that means everyone, not only "Jews").

But you are correct, keeping the law alone, does not save us, absolutely not. Grace saves us. But far too many feel that you have to choose one over the other, when BOTH are in effect. Yes grace saves you, but you still have to obey the law. When you are saved your PAST SINS are forgiven, so from then on out you do your best to obey (stop sinning, and sin is law breaking). Can we be perfect, well, certain scriptures seem to say so, but I will admit that not all of us can. I strongly feel that God looks at our motives, if we mess up and didn't mean to, and we turn back to God and ask forgiveness, I feel He will show mercy, but dependant on whether you are honestly trying or not.

Anyhow, if I misunderstood you, my apologies. I just hear the grace only, no law thing so much I guess I may be seeing it where it doesn't exist. ;)

Here's a prophecy that really sums up today's churches...

Ezekiel 22:26 (NIV)
“Her priests do violence to my law and profane my holy things; they do not distinguish between the holy and the common; they teach that there is no difference between the unclean and the clean; and they shut their eyes to the keeping of my Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.”

Anyhow, God bless. ;)

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Something I don't understand is what does it mean to keep the Sabbath? In today's context? Has the Sabbath been superceded by Christ? He says a couple things about it that I know of :

Matthew 12:5-8 said:

Or have you not read in the law that on the sabbath the priests in the temple break the sabbath and yet are guiltless? 6 I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. 7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is lord of the sabbath.”

Mark 2:27-28 said:

Then he said to them, “The sabbath was made for humankind, and not humankind for the sabbath; 28 so the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath.”

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Check it out, guys! We have two Christians arguing with each other over the contradictions in the Bible. 8-) Oddly, they can't comprehend that the Bible is contradictory so they're accusing each other of reading it wrong...

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GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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I second bamccaig. I'm eating popcorn since they started and didn't even thought to mention none of them answered my questions ^^

Good thing with science, there are some things universally understood (and by the way accepted, note the order).

8-)

"Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours"
Allegro Wiki, full of examples and articles !!

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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bamccaig said:

Check it out, guys! We have two Christians arguing with each other over the contradictions in the Bible. 8-) Oddly, they can't comprehend that the Bible is contradictory so they're accusing each other of reading it wrong...

Check it out Christians! We have an aetheist who can't read! There are no contradictions between what I said and what Neil said. Both apply equally.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Check it out Christians! We have an aetheist who can't read! There are no contradictions between what I said and what Neil said. Both apply equally.

Agreed. :) We're merely trying to clarify what it says and help each other understand it better. I didn't mention contradictions and neither did Edgar. Because there aren't any.

You can find contradictions in SCIENCE though! For example, in the proven laws of thermodynamics it states that energy and matter cannot be created or destroyed, then we have the big bang theory which states it was created from nothing.

We have the thermodynamic law of entropy, which states that everything tends towards decay. Then we have evolutionism which says that over time things improve and get better.

There are many... MANY more. 8-)

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Quote:

There are many... MANY more. 8-)

Uhh.. none of those are contradictions.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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Neil Roy said:

We have the thermodynamic law of entropy, which states that everything tends towards decay. Then we have evolutionism which says that over time things improve and get better.

Evolution is the acceleration of destruction. 8-)



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