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Absolute proof that GOD EXIST (Pretty Cool)
GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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@Mark I misused the word; I had 'folks' in mind and foes appeared. meh.

"Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours"
Allegro Wiki, full of examples and articles !!

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

Piccolo said:

...

While I can see some bits of it that (could) make sense, on the whole, that seems to further obfuscate things instead of clearing them up.
One thing that strikes me: God at war? With whom? Satan? Mammon in the theater of our minds?
I can only say that "Christians as soldiers" seems quite contrary to what I know about Christianity.

Well, Neil, surprisingly we seem to have found some common ground. I'm beginning to find your perspective interesting, so I'd like to kindly ask you to answer my questions below.

Matthew 5:39 said:

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Wouldn't God require you to turn your other cheek to bambam, for example? Yet, you threatened him with violence. :-/

Matthew 5:44 said:

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Do you love and pray for bambam, for example? (sorry bambam, I know you're a decent person - most of the time ^^)

Matthew 6:19-20, 25 said:

19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

How's your progress on these?

Now to something different:

Matthew 7:12 said:

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Note this was also in Mark 12:29-33, cited above, where Jesus was asked what the most important commandments were.

Now, about women and homosexuals:
1) If that golden rule applies AND is clearly classified by Jesus himself (!) as most important AND as essence of commandments and prophets, how can someone (= Paulus) bar women from speaking? Doesn't seem to go together well in my book.
2) I don't have time to reread, but IIRC Jesus surprised his disciples at least once by talking to people who were not commonly socially accepted. Isn't that open-heartedness that could/should inspire?

piccolo
Member #3,163
January 2003
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@Polybios

Neil has answered your question already. so I will repeat what he said for you in different words so I do not sound repetitive.

We all should aspire to be like the Lord God however we can not be God because we are Human only God is perfect. So as a human we can just try our best.

wow
-------------------------------
i am who you are not am i

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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{"name":"What-the-Actual-fuck-meme-6049.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/9\/6\/969e017715f4faf189d08e722afd28cc.jpg","w":600,"h":412,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/9\/6\/969e017715f4faf189d08e722afd28cc"}What-the-Actual-fuck-meme-6049.jpg

In other words, if we live our lives in ways that God doesn't approve of we're going to be tortured for all eternity in a lake of fire, but if you live your life in ways that God doesn't approve of he'll understand and forgive you and you'll be rewarded with eternity in paradise? :-/

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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I'm an atheist. [...] It's an issue of the Christian god being impossible within the observable world of ours due to claims made by the Bible...

Clearly, if you watch the video, he explains the absolute proof that GOD EXIST! ;)

The christian god feels very childish to me anymore, perhaps because it was something that I associate with my own childhood. As long as it's a healthy belief in god I'm pretty respectful of other people's beliefs, but if they ask me about what I believe in I will usually tell them that I believe I am the light of the world and that the sun is the source of all life on this planet and without it this rock would be inanimate and desolate.

Although I am an atheist, I have a hard time labeling myself as an atheist. I feel that label carries many unwelcome connotations.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Derezo said:

...the sun is the source of all life on this planet and without it this rock would be inanimate and desolate.

video

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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I know the clip without clicking it ;D It's pretty great.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Polybios said:

Wouldn't God require you to turn your other cheek to bambam, for example? Yet, you threatened him with violence. :-/

You're absolutely right, and I was wrong. I am human and that is part of my own weaknesses. I am working on that aspect, but it is not easy. Being bullied on a daily basis in school as a child, I grew up and vowed never to take it again, so I tend to strike back. I am working on that though. Well, except when it comes to my wife, if anyone hurts her or makes her cry, I will lose it, Christian or no and they will be in a whole lot of pain. Actually, I thought I was quite controlled when I threw my doctor across the room for making my wife cry. And the police he phoned were partially in agreement with me, given how cold he was and the weird irony that the cop that showed up had the same medical condition my wife had that our doctor wouldn't do anything about, but that's a life story. ;) Suffice it to say, she ended up getting help once I made it known how serious I was about not liking her crying. :)

Quote:

Do you love and pray for bambam, for example? (sorry bambam, I know you're a decent person - most of the time ^^)

This is not something I used to do a lot, but believe it or not, I have tried harder to do this in the past couple years. It is another thing that is aweful hard to do, but I am starting to see why. And I would not wish any harm on anyone here, whether we agree or not. I DO hope people someday see the truth and change, given what I know is coming, I do not wish that on anyone. So I am getting there. Not easy and I am human, I don't claim to be perfect, not by a long shot. The important thing is to try, and when you mess up, get back up, pray for forgiveness (God is "quick to forgive and slow to anger", something you may not think given how some churches preach Him) and try not to make the same mistakes twice. I have a long way to go.

Quote:

How's your progress on these?

Actually, I do quite well with that! I struggle to make ends meet, but my wife and I have often commented that through all the hard times we have been through, we have always had a roof over our head, clothes on our back and have always been fed. I am not wealthy by a long shot, I live month to month. But I never worry. I could give examples where I feel God has helped me (I know, atheists will see coincidences etc). I needed more pants, my old ones all wearing out, as I said, I am NOT wealthy and can barely even afford those. Plus my size can be large (I am around 6'0" tall, size 15 feet etc), but when I went to the store to find something recently, I found two pairs of pants that were exactly my size (the only two there) and they just happened to be on sale for $7 each, even the teller couldn't believe the price. Same with shoes... I went looking for the hard to find size 15s, there was only ONE PAIR available in the store my size... and they were on sale. Coincidence? Perhaps, but I prefer to believe differently. When in need, I always seem to get something. We were short on food plus at the time we had a cat last year who needed to be put down... each time we ran short on money, suddenly I got a donation for my Deluxe Pacman game. When we needed to get out cat put down, we got a $1250 donation for my game (which blew me away!) that helped in a multitude of ways. So again, coincidence? Perhaps, I don't think so. My cellulitis flare up, normally a hospital visit and lots of meds for a week or two, I prayed about it and it cleared up overnight. I could go on and on for just the past year, but the more I have faith and trust in God to provide, the more He seems to do for me, so... no amount of laughter or scoffing in here will deter me, especially after I was extremely stressed and prayed and literally felt a wave of calm come over me the instant I got done praying like I have never felt in my life, that was the pinnacle for me. Again, coincidence? Sorry, I know where that came from, and you cannot understand it unless you felt it... literally. Anyhow... that should answer that question. ;)

Quote:

Note this was also in Mark 12:29-33, cited above, where Jesus was asked what the most important commandments were.

Do to others what you would have them do to you. Of course. I don't steal from others, I try and help when I can. I rarely pass by a beggar on the street without helping in some way (rarely with money, but I will usually go buy food and come back, or I will ask what they need). As I already stated, if someone pisses me off, this can be harder to stick to, but I am working on it. I stopped lying totally a few decades ago, it's hard to believe, but I do not lie to anyone for any reason. Of course, doesn't mean I have to spill the beans, not lying doesn't mean you are given a truth syrum and have to answer everyone's questions. I have met people that think that though. I honestly can't think of any area where I have done something to someone else I wouldn't want done or expect done to myself under the same circumstances.

Quote:

I don't have time to reread, but IIRC Jesus surprised his disciples at least once by talking to people who were not commonly socially accepted. Isn't that open-heartedness that could/should inspire?

Read the story again. Jesus met with them in his home, not in a church group setting. And He was trying to save them, to get them to repent and change. He wasn't accepting them as they were. He called them sinners, they were the ones who needed him the most. Now this can be difficult to understand, and the reason why is that most modern churches feel that their church buildings are places to invite sinners in to save them. But in the bible, when a church met on the Sabbath to worship God, those that met were all expected to be people who have repented and stopped sinning and all are wishing to obey God. God loves all of us, but we all have our roles. The reasons why women are not allowed to speak IN THE CHURCH (and only in the church) or have authority over men is due to the fact that it was women who first sinned. So it was part of the curse God places on them, they would be subservient to their husbands, but this doesn't mean a husband can be a ruthless, cruel dictator over them. There are rules about that. And God allows women to teach other women and children outside of the church. There have been some very famous prophetesses that prophesied and taught. But I guarantee you that they never disobeyed God and spoke out in the church or disobeyed their husband, and God always blessed them for it, so their lives were generally happier and richer for it. This is a difficult concept to understand in this modern age of feminism and absolute rebellion. Homosexuality should be a no brainer, it's not the way God designed us to be. Human sexuality is supposed to take place within marriage (by the way, contrary to the teachings of the Roman Catholics, sex is NOT a sin, when done right). There are even instructions in the bible for married couples to "come together often to avoid temptation", and that means sex. Which makes sense, a married couple who have sex often, will be less likely to be tempted, but how many husband end up cheating because their wife refuses sex for them (or vice versa, goes both ways equally). And of course, once married with a stable, proper reliationship, you eventually, if all the plumbing works, have children. They grow up in a home with both parents and are happier and healthier for it. Believe me, I know about the problems with a single parent family with no father, I grew up in one. There is nothing normal or natural about men and men sleeping together or women with women (and the bible does mention women with women too). I don't see how anyone could not understand that, whether you believe in God or are an atheist, how is it people cannot see that is not natural I don't know. There are a few examples of people in the church that used to be that way that changed, and the bible mentions them as well. That would be a good reason why Jesus spoke to them. But there is no way t hey could have been allowed into a church meeting of any sort. There were some that were expelled from churches you read about in Acts until they stopped sinning (a case of incest if I recall), and they ended up stopping that and were welcomed back in later on. I won't quote the verses unless asked as I get enough flak for quoting the bible in here as it is.

My main point is, IF there is a God, and IF the bible is His word, than we need to obey it whether you agree with it or not, and to disagree with it is to disagree with God, not a healthy attitude to have. But you're coming at this as an atheist who does not believe and wondering how I can take this fairy tale book literally. Well, if I didn't believe in God, I couldn't! But if I believe in God, and believe this is His word, than you're damn right I take it literally and I will do my best to obey it (and fuck up often times, because I am not perfect, not by a long shot). But one can show many examples that the bible is accurate and true. Jesus certain existed and was executed, all historians worth their sale understand that because there is evidence outside of the bible that confirms it. Especially from the Roman senator/historian Tacitus who hated Christians. He wrote about them and Jesus and His execution by Pilot. hostile witnesses like that are the best examples. I have heard from some great historians on the subject, one was an agnostic historian who stated out of the thousands of historians he knew, not one didn't think that Jesus existed, they all know he did, based on the evidence. Whether you think he was the son of God is your own business.

Anyhow... enough of my novel. so much for not replying in here again, ;D... but you were polite enough and respectful in how you asked your questions, so I felt a response was due.

Edit: okay, I will reply to this one Bam...

bamccaig said:

In other words, if we live our lives in ways that God doesn't approve of we're going to be tortured for all eternity in a lake of fire

Nope! Absolutely NOT! But I am not a Sunday "Christian". I feel the doctrine of burning in hell forever is an evil and blasphemous one in the extreme and doesn't show God as merciful and loving AT ALL. There is an end time lake of fire, reserved for the wicked, I do believe that because that is what the bible actually says. But you won't burn "forever" in it, you will be physical as you are now, and you will be thrown into it and destroyed forever. Eternal life is given to believers who obey, not to the wicked. And in order to burn forever, one would have to have eternal life. In revelation it is called the second death, from which there is no return. Death... is death. I don't know what about the word "death" Sunday keeping Christians don't understand. Also, we don't go to heaven at any time either, that's another false doctrine, read John 3:13 sometime, see what Jesus said. I bet you never hear that verse in a Sunday church. When we die, we are dead, and we stay dead until Jesus returns and resurrects the dead. The dead... are dead. Everyone that has ever died, except Jesus, is still dead and unconscious. According to your bible anyhow. There is a reward for the obedient though and why not?! You expect to be rewarded for mocking God, laughing at Him and disobeying Him? Did your parents reward you when you didn't do what you were told?! Perhaps this is how it is done in modern society, we reward people no matter if they deserve it or not, but God is not only merciful and loving, but He is also just. He wouldn't be very just if he rewarded the wicked disobedient with the same reward as those who obeyed him now would he?! Wouldn't make any sort of sense, why bother obeying in that case?

Have a good one.

--
Deluxe Pacman (website now gone)
"I am not ashamed of my belief in God."

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I hear you about the "no actual Hell" thing. But of course, in my opinion, that takes a whole lot of sting away from the whole thing. It would be difficult to convince people of the Bible God without a threat of Hell, which I'm sure is why it manifested... Most people would probably just think, "OK, fine," if you told them they'd just "die" as already anticipated. And with science on their side, there's zero chance in Hell (no pun intended) that you'd get them to take you seriously.

For the record, the way you describe assaulting your doctor sounds rather unprovoked and juvenile. Sometimes news from a doctor is worthy of an emotional response. That isn't justification for assaulting him. That's his job. Obviously you've been pretty vague about the circumstances. Fuck if I know. Nevertheless, it's not very encouraging. And I take it you're not a Spring chicken at 18 so for you to keep defending that you're "working on it" sounds like a rather convenient excuse for "I take it seriously when it's convenient and do whatever the fuck I want when it's not (much like the rest of the population, in practice)".

Your description of yourself reminds me of a "friendly" "giant" that I've recently met. Nice guy. Not unlike others in our field he does lack a certain polish to social skills. Apparently if you push him he can snap. I hope not to be on the receiving end as he is quite large. Of course, this all makes him appear rather less evolved and generally less intelligent.

You can use your pants and shoes anecdote when starving children in Africa happen upon them.

While atheists certainly laugh at the expense of believers, I think those intelligent enough to take you on in a debate would not take pleasure in your suffering. Some certainly enjoy your logical fallacies and enjoy defeating you, but at the end of the day I don't think any atheist aims to harm you. On the contrary, I imagine any atheist giving enough of a shit to debate it at all considers it worthwhile to try to free you from the shackles of superstition.

I'm glad that the Bible approves of sex. Maybe I can use that to convince my girlfriend... I'll need to dodge the bit about "marriage" until a prenup is affordable though. :-X

I must admit that I am quite surprised by your description of your physical attributes. From previous avatars, pictures, and posts I never would have placed you as 6 feet tall with size 15 shoes! I could be quite impressed by pictures of that.

I'm 29 years old and a mere 5 foot 9 inches or so weighing around 140 lbs. Even so I'm only 140 according to my new digital bathroom scale, and probably only because of my girlfriend encouraging full meals and perhaps getting older. I held 125 - 130 for years prior and was happy with that. :-/

Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

The discussion seems to be very much about proof this and proof that. Some believers think the OP video included absolute proof that God exists. Some atheists say that they don't believe until there is proof.

How long are you going to keep up the debate about scientific proof? Is that particular debate very important to any of you? Or is it just fun for an atheist to state that they will start believing, as soon as someone has the proof? Are there believers that actually believe that there will be a future, where the existence of God has finally been prooved scientifically?

Such future will never happen. That is not the future any Christian should look forward to. Instead, build the Church on what you have. Build a better tomorrow. Love thy neighbour, no matter if he's a Christian or not, black or white, gay or straight. All this is possible following what Jesus taught, and believing in God. All this is possible, even for all of you not believing in God.

If you still hang up on the proof thing, I'd like to add my point of view. The day someone has real scientific evidence of the existence of God, I'll stop believing in God.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Years of thorough research have revealed that the red "x" that closes a window, really isn't red, but white on red background.

Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest.

piccolo
Member #3,163
January 2003
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My point is the OP shows mathematical prof that a creator must exist.
I think if the thread title read "Absolute proof that CREATOR EXIST (Pretty Cool)" atheist would be caught off-guard and not have time to put their emotional blocker that is blocking out clear logic right in front of their faces. They put up the logic blockers so they do not go into oxymoron mode and self destruct or wakeup(become enlighten).

This why they derailed the tread to try and discredit the Bible.

wow
-------------------------------
i am who you are not am i

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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bamccaig said:

Sometimes news from a doctor is worthy of an emotional response. That isn't justification for assaulting him.

I didn't tell the whole story there, and I do not regret what I did.

Here's the whole story, which I am certain you will find more fault with, but, so be it.

My wife had back problems, severe back problems, so bad that she was laying in bed all day long, almost 24 hours a day, not able to get up for long due to the pain. I was serving her meals in bed etc. That's how bad it was.

We made an appointment with our family doctor to get something done about it. When we went there and described how bad it was to him, he wouldn't do a thing. Nothing, he wouldn't prescribe her pain medications, he wouldn't send her to a specialist... NOTHING! At the prospect of being in constant pain with no end in sight and no help, my wife broke down crying. At that point I turned to him and said: "You bastard, I should break your back so you can feel what she goes through!" and then I threw him across the room! They called the police and one of the officers that came just happened to have the SAME back problem my wife did! And when I told him the doctor wasn't going to do a thing, the officer was surprised. I was never charged, but I dropped him as my doctor and didn't bother with doctors again for over 10 years (I still can't stand them). BUT, the doctor agreed to send her to a back specialist and she ended up getting surgery she needed which helped a lot.

So he got what he deserved, I was fully justified, and it helped get her the help she needed. He should be thankful I didn't actually break his back like I wanted to. I have a great deal of self control, EXCEPT when it comes to my wife, hurt her in any way, and you are toast. Guaranteed. I'll get very unchristian on your ass, and I won't be sorry I did it. That is my role as her husband. She's a tiny person compared to me, 5'0" tall and about 110lbs, so I am very protective of her.

One thing about me personally that may not come across here, is that in person, I don't preach to anyone. Have a HUGE sense of humour and love to sit down and have a few drinks with friends. It takes a lot to get me angry, I rarely get angry (except about my wife as stated). I'm a very intellectual kind of person, spend my time just learning, either studying my bible, studying math (which I was doing all yesterday), reading about the history of each letter of the alphabet (fascinating!), about the history of our calender, space... you name it. I built my own computer and programmed them since the 80s. It's difficult to know someone based on text in here.

-------

About God though. I noticed there were two opinions coming out here. One where people think God is cruel for punishing people for breaking his laws, and one where people ask "if God exists, why does He allow evil". These are interesting contrasts when you think about it. Lets examine them closer...

There are three ways God could be...

1) Allows all evil and never punished for them.
2) Doesn't allow any evil and forces you to do His will.
3) Allows you total freedom, but punishes for disobedience.

For the first one, lets say God allowed all evil, disobedience and never punished for it. How would you feel come judgement day (actually, there would be no judgement day, we would all get eternal life in paradise), if in this life I entered your home, murdered you and your family and stole everything you had, then when Jesus returned, and I was resurrected, I got the same reward as you did? Sound fair? You would hate God at that point for rewarding me and not punishing me, guaranteed, to state otherwise would be a blatant lie.

What if God did as some say He should, if He exists and not allow any evil. What if God FORCED you to do His will and didn't allow you any freedoms? You would hate him for that guaranteed. Also, what would you learn? How would you know why God has the laws He does?

The whole reason why God allows total freedom, but with punishments for disobedience and rewards for going out of your way to obey Him is because of freedoms. You are allowed to choose, and if you try hard to obey Him, you deserve rewards. If you disobey him than there are consequences, as there should be. But the main reason for all of this is so that people can understand why it is that God has these laws, and we will soon find out when mankind enters into the final war in the years to come, WW3 and we almost wipe ourselves out of existence. At that point Jesus will return and put a stop to the madness.

I don't know what you think a God should be like, if He exists, but anything like how He is now, would cause even greater resentment against Him for allowing evil without punishment or disallowing freedom and forcing His will on you.

--
Deluxe Pacman (website now gone)
"I am not ashamed of my belief in God."

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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Neil Roy said:

What if God did as some say He should, if He exists and not allow any evil. What if God FORCED you to do His will and didn't allow you any freedoms? You would hate him for that guaranteed. Also, what would you learn? How would you know why God has the laws He does?

I clearly outlined how there would be no force necessary to eliminate evil. Your god is all knowing and all powerful, it would be possible to create universes as I suggested where people freely choose to do no evil* or where an evil option never occurs. That's the nature of "all knowing" and "all powerful."

A population of perfectly morally (by the Bible's standard) sound people or a world where evil never occurs does not invalidate freewill. The existence of evil, however, does invalidate the all knowing, all powerful, perfectly good god of the Christian faith, though.

*: It's evident the Christian god purposely created a universe where people commit sinful acts and therefore are punished. He would know the fate of all people of all times when he created it.

The only ways the Christian god is possible is if he is all knowing and perfectly good (but not all powerful) or all knowing and all powerful (but not perfectly good). Otherwise he is impossible by merit of evil existing.

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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I'm no more an atheist. I'm now a Bolyardist.

;D

"Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours"
Allegro Wiki, full of examples and articles !!

piccolo
Member #3,163
January 2003
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@Aaron Bolyard

The Lord has clearly outline how to deal with and protect thyself from the evils that are in the world. However the text is only understood by the fathfull.

Edit
The Lord expect more from his creations there is more then enough hand holding.

wow
-------------------------------
i am who you are not am i

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

Thank you very much, Neil! I didn't expect such a thorough elaboration. You seem to be very consequent in your beliefs, I like that. (I suspected you were just some troll throwing around bible verses to cover up his sins ^^).

I'm not an atheist, though, rather an agnosticist. I think I can (partly) agree with what Johan said. Metaphysical claims and discussions usually rather bore me, I think the whole thing is about human behavior and ... well beliefs, or rather believing as such.
I especially like this statement:

The day someone has real scientific evidence of the existence of God, I'll stop believing in God.

Knowledge is more or less a dead thing. When you've proven something, it's settled, you're finished with it. In contrast to that, believing in something is what keeps you going (for example, that's usually why people set out to proof something in the first place^^). Now, I think, for human-behavior issues, God should best thought of as something without properties at all. Not in a sense that it/He has no properties, but rather in a sense that our ability is not sufficient. When you attribute properties, in a way, you partly kill it/Him, as you transfer it from the belief to the knowledge zone. Maybe, in a way, that's what the burning bush that isn't consumed by the fire (paradox) should express. I think there are more passages in the Bible that would support such a view (i.e. the name isn't used/forbidden, the commandments before the one about the sabbath (just looked it up, everyone counts them differently)).
Note that the church has developed a system of thought (scholasticism) that is completely contrary to that (this, too, has its own merits).

So, in a way, I am probably religious, but I do have my problems with some of the stuff in the Bible. Some parts are full of wisdom and I even enjoy the language, but others (e.g. Paulus, who has been very important for the development of the church), I rather dislike.
The bible is by no means a coherent text and we know historically that it was compiled by humans, so I think I can very well pick what parts I like. ^^
So you see, to mock the "certaintists" (of both sides) is a religious act for me ^^ - I'd also mock the atheists, but they usually have arguments that are easier on the intellect.

I'll stop discussion here, I'll just mention that I personally don't think believing in God should be about obedience, a word that you use rather frequently (to me, this appears like the projection of a human relationship which is probably inadequate).
Thank you again, Neil.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Saw this on imgur:

{"name":"xNYxJpx.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/a\/a\/aa51caa46dbf1214640c27988bd78b07.jpg","w":492,"h":448,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/a\/a\/aa51caa46dbf1214640c27988bd78b07"}xNYxJpx.jpg

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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Haha that one is good ^^

"Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours"
Allegro Wiki, full of examples and articles !!

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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bamccaig, I have seen that one before, and it always gave me a chuckle. There is no amount of pot in the universe that will make me want to sleep with a guy. Sorry, I like my women without handles. ;D

--
Deluxe Pacman (website now gone)
"I am not ashamed of my belief in God."

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

Neil Roy said:

For the first one, lets say God allowed all evil, disobedience and never punished for it. How would you feel come judgement day (actually, there would be no judgement day, we would all get eternal life in paradise), if in this life I entered your home, murdered you and your family and stole everything you had, then when Jesus returned, and I was resurrected, I got the same reward as you did? Sound fair? You would hate God at that point for rewarding me and not punishing me, guaranteed, to state otherwise would be a blatant lie.

The funny thing is that this is the option that most closely matches with reality. Except that there is no God. There is no judgment day and no punishment after death. At least, I've seen zero evidence or even logical reasoning for it. And that means that evil people really are never punished (unless we punish them, but even so it's a very fine line to not be evil ourselves, and odds are people that commit evil acts are incapable of feeling the kinds of pain the rest of us feel).

I believe Jesus would tell you to forgive this person. He doesn't say forgive him because God will punish him later. He says forgive him. Period. This is actually very wise advise because the hatred would only consume you. It would only hurt you. It wouldn't hurt the murderer (unless you happened to use the hate to retaliate, but violence typically multiplies so there's no guarantee it would end there).

My girlfriend and I had supper with my girlfriend's great aunt today. She's a Catholic nun. She gave some great advise regarding some wrongs that were done. Just forget about it. The "guilty" party has already forgotten about it. It doesn't cross their mind anymore. You can't do anything to make them upset about it and fretting over it is only going to hurt you.

You forget that people live their lives on the planet without really being given a fair shot at life. It's easy from Suburbia to preach about doing good, etc., but most people committing horrible acts do so because they're desperate and that's the best that they know how to do. They need our help and support. It's not coincidental that crime in impoverished communities is significantly higher than anywhere else.

Should these people be punished for the wrongs that they commit? Should they be excluded from the hypothetical reward of afterlife? I don't think so. Even truly evil people should probably be forgiven. There's evidence now that they're born with brain defects that influences the way they think. They literally cannot rationalize not being evil. The way their minds work being "good" doesn't make sense. Being programmers we should be able to understand quite easily how little it takes for a program to malfunction. The circuits are broken in their brain.

It's understandable for a primitive culture that believed that our minds are magical to devise Gods to explain it away and give themselves a sense of justice for it all. We don't have to be primitive anymore. We can comprehend that there's no reason for it all, and the people committing evil acts are probably in need of help themselves. We can try to them help cope with their condition or environment (and better yet, to improve their environment), and we can find better ways to cope ourselves.

Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

bamccaig, wise words! As you point out, that's what Jesus might have said. And that really is very close to one way to interpret Christian values. And that should work as an example on how Christians and atheists could come together and discuss about things that really matter and possibly make together a better world. Of course, being an atheist doesn't mean that you hold those values. But Christians should really stop bothering about non-Christians not believing particular things, as well as atheists should stop bothering about believers believing peculiar things.

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Years of thorough research have revealed that the red "x" that closes a window, really isn't red, but white on red background.

Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest.

Niunio
Member #1,975
March 2002
avatar

I didn't read for a long time, but I have an uncomfortable question:

Let's say that God exists. Since He is the God of Christians, Muslims and Jews, just with different names, which one of the three is the true religion? All them, or just one? Why?

@bamccaig: Good one. Ra bless you! ;D

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Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

God said:

You shall have no other gods before Me.

In those days, I think it was more about having a god, not that much about whether God existed or not. If God said that in the first commandment, didn't He simply imply that there are/were other gods, too? And if I remember correctly, the Old Testament mentions some of the other gods by name. Again, it's about having a god. Like Mammon. Well, perhaps Mammon or mammon wasn't really a god, but later it has often been treated like a god.

So, I don't have other gods. And if I treat a person that has an other god than I, like a fellow human being instead of killing him, I don't feel I betray my god, no matter what the Bible says. Even if I do nothing to convert him, I don't feel I'm a bad Christian. I might find a connection to him, I might discuss things with him. He might convert, I might convert. Neither of us might convert. And he might as well be an atheist. What's the big deal?

The parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37) may at its best tell us something about how to treat people of different faith, race, ethnicity, whatever. Comparing Samaritans to Jews might not be similar to comparing say Christians to Muslims or theists to atheists. But that's not important. Loving thy neighbour is.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Years of thorough research have revealed that the red "x" that closes a window, really isn't red, but white on red background.

Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest.

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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I don't have any god. You're all perverted.
;D

"Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours"
Allegro Wiki, full of examples and articles !!

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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You should read Isaiah 45.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+45&version=NRSV

Selected quotes :

Isaiah 45:5-7 said:

5
I am the Lord, and there is no other;
besides me there is no god.
I arm you, though you do not know me,

6
so that they may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is no one besides me;
I am the Lord, and there is no other.

7
I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe;
I the Lord do all these things.

Isaiah 45:18-19 said:

18
For thus says the Lord,
who created the heavens
(he is God!),
who formed the earth and made it
(he established it;
he did not create it a chaos,
he formed it to be inhabited!):
I am the Lord, and there is no other.

19
I did not speak in secret,
in a land of darkness;
I did not say to the offspring of Jacob,
“Seek me in chaos.”
I the Lord speak the truth,
I declare what is right.

@Aaron Bolyard
What you are talking about is the philosophical "problem of evil". You claim it proves that God doesn't exist or that he is in some way flawed, but that is not the case.

God did not create the world in chaos. It was good when he created it.

Genesis 1:31 said:

31
God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

If you think this means the Earth is only 6-10 thousand years old, you need to read about the 3 Earth and Heaven ages. I told you about them here :

This web page explains it thoroughly.
http://worldeventsandthebible.com/2009/11/world-that-then-was-first-earth-age.html

You can learn all about this from the man who taught me the Bible, Line by Line, and Verse by Verse, Pastor Arnold Murray, of Shepherd's Chapel [shepherdschapel.com]. RIP Pastor Murray. His son Dennis is carrying on the Ministry. He is one of the most intelligent, enlightened men I have ever known. He teaches the truth of God's word, through in depth Bible study. He puts so called 'biblical scholars' to shame. I digress. You can view part one and two of his series on the three Earth ages on Youtube here :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAwNvyHiWT0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O6LELPOfJo

It was Satan's pride that made him corrupt. The King of Tyre is a type for the Anti-Christ. Ezekiel 28 speaks about Satan and how he fell from grace. It speaks of the time before, and of the time to come.

Ezekiel 28:11-19 said:

Lamentation over the King of Tyre

11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me: 12 Mortal, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord God:

You were the signet of perfection,[b]
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13
You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,
carnelian, chrysolite, and moonstone,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,[c] turquoise, and emerald;
and worked in gold were your settings
and your engravings.[d]
On the day that you were created
they were prepared.

14
With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you;[e]
you were on the holy mountain of God;
you walked among the stones of fire.

15
You were blameless in your ways
from the day that you were created,
until iniquity was found in you.

16
In the abundance of your trade
you were filled with violence, and you sinned;
so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God,
and the guardian cherub drove you out
from among the stones of fire.

17
Your heart was proud because of your beauty;
you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I exposed you before kings,
to feast their eyes on you.

18
By the multitude of your iniquities,
in the unrighteousness of your trade,
you profaned your sanctuaries.
So I brought out fire from within you;
it consumed you,
and I turned you to ashes on the earth
in the sight of all who saw you.

19
All who know you among the peoples
are appalled at you;
you have come to a dreadful end
and shall be no more forever.

So the world started out good, but Satan fell from grace and tried to lead a rebellion against God so He destroyed the first Earth age and created the Second, where we are now, in the flesh, for us to be born innocent and make our own minds up about whether we will follow God and Wisdom, or Satan and deception.



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