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Absolute proof that GOD EXIST (Pretty Cool)
Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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Edgar, the logic doesn't deny the existence of some creator, it denies the existence of an all powerful, all knowing, perfectly good creator, which is what the Christian god is supposed to be.

The addition of Satan does nothing. It's delegating the problem (i.e., evil), but the initial problem exists: God willfully created a flawed universe with suffering. He knew (because he is all knowing) the future, and could have created a world where that future wouldn't happen (because he is all powerful) and instead an ideal future (of no sin or suffering, because he is perfectly good) occurs, but he didn't.

The other details are fluff and simply do not address the issue about the traits of the Christian god which, given the world we live in, are contradictory. Unless the Christian god is above fundamental logic (an absurd proposition), he is impossible.

(I'd like to note claims of the supernatural can be ruled incorrect. E.g., rituals to alter the weather are impossible. It's not unreasonable to extend this to larger claims when possible. "A godlike being created the universe" is too vague and open to be disproven [at least now], but specific instances of godlike being with definitive traits can be [such as the ancient pantheons, or in this instance, the Christian god]).

edit: Elaborated on some points.

Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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I just watched a very good video by a man I have grown to respect. It's very intelligent and quotes many scientific sources which backs up, nay, proves that there is a God. Check it out. I doubt any atheists will watch it but I encourage all Christians to watch it, you will like it, guaranteed!

video

--
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"I am not ashamed of my belief in God."

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Edgar, the logic doesn't deny the existence of some creator, it denies the existence of an all powerful, all knowing, perfectly good creator, which is what the Christian god is supposed to be.

The addition of Satan does nothing. It's delegating the problem (i.e., evil), but the initial problem exists: God willfully created a flawed universe with suffering. He knew (because he is all knowing) the future, and could have created a world where that future wouldn't happen (because he is all powerful) and instead an ideal future (of no sin or suffering, because he is perfectly good) occurs, but he didn't.

The other details are fluff and simply do not address the issue about the traits of the Christian god which, given the world we live in, are contradictory. Unless the Christian god is above fundamental logic (an absurd proposition), he is impossible.

Saying God is perfectly good doesn't mean that there can't be evil in the world. The world was created Good, but Satan was corrupted by pride and tried to turn everyone against God. Saying that God knew it would happen doesn't mean that all of a sudden he is no longer good because he allowed evil to happen.

Romans 9 gives a partial explanation :

Romans 9 NRSV said:

22
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction;
23
and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
24
including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

That fact that God knew evil would exist does not make Him any less Good. But now you will say that God is not all powerful, because he didn't create a world without evil in it. Then you go on to say that God could have created a world where everyone freely chose to do good, and not evil. I then refer you to the above passage. It says why God chose to do it this way.

The answers are all there if you're willing to look for them.

Proverbs 8:17 NRSV said:

17
I love those who love me,
and those who seek me diligently find me.

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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I don't think you see the flaw with your argument.

Yes, the Christian god being perfectly good is fine if he wasn't all powerful. I never argued otherwise. As a result, then there could be evil, but the god would unable to have created a world without evil. But that's not the Christian god!

It doesn't matter if the Christian god chose to do it "this way." If he was perfectly good, he wouldn't have chosen to "do it this way." Unless the Christian god purposely wants people to suffer and deny him? That's radical... (And also it's not "perfectly good.")

And for the record, the idea of "choice" when discussing an all knowing and all powerful creator is rather flimsy. He created the world where people deny him and commit sinful acts. He knew, yet created it anyway. The difference between a world without evil and a world with evil are completely arbitrary to an all powerful and all knowing being, and choosing one with evil over one with good is contradictory for the supposed Christian god (i.e., he is perfectly good).

The three criteria (all knowing, all powerful, and perfectly good) cannot all be true for the Christian god (by the Christian idea of "good"). He can be all knowing and perfectly good, or all powerful and all knowing, but all three? No. It's not logically sound because it's a contradiction.

Elverion
Member #6,239
September 2005
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If God said that in the first commandment, didn't He simply imply that there are/were other gods, too?

Way back in the early days of civilization, it was pretty common for each state/province to have it's own god; conquering another meant you got to shove your god down their throat because, after-all, your god is clearly better. Back then, religions (if you could even call them that) didn't state that others were wrong or that other gods didn't exist. In fact, they were acknowledged but each city always asserted that their god was stronger (until it was overthrown).

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piccolo
Member #3,163
January 2003
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@Aaron Bolyard
what your skipping over is God gave us free will just as all in the heavens have.

There are ways to take away free will, but that is not what God wants. He wants his favorite creation to use free will to make the right choses and The Bible is a guild to help us do so.

Think about

Humans are trying to do the same thing God has already done and have the same mind set.

They want to create the perfect AI where it learns and make the right choses use a basic Guild to help it stay away from its own destruction or the destruction of its environment.

Think of Humans as the perfect AI. What good is AI if you have to program everything into it and hold its hand at ever turn?

wow
-------------------------------
i am who you are not am i

Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
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@Neil Roy

I tried watching the video, but it's the same old same old same old thing - first off, he seems comfused between creation/evolution/abiogenesis, which is annoying. Also he claims that atheists only accept the material, without other dimensions, which is SOOO wrong. Then we get onto "they can't prove it" - wrong way round, the burden of proof is on YOU, otherwise we could say "yeah bananas turn into frogs, you can't prove they don't" - it doesn't work that way. Then he was saying we only have 2 possibilites, either God created everything or there was evolution - again, he doesn't understand the difference between evolution and abiogenesis.

This is one of the weaker arguments for god that I've seen, TBH.

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Elverion
Member #6,239
September 2005
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I'm surprised you even got that far in, Dizzy. I got bored of hearing one logical fallacy after another followed by some unsupportive quotes out of the bible. I just assumed that the "proof" the presenter had promised at the beginning just wasn't going to come, ever. And it seems I was correct.

--
SolarStrike Software - MicroMacro home - Automation software.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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There is no inherently "good" or "evil" deed. God would have to decide on a whim what he wishes to be "good" and what he wishes to be "evil". It's evident from the Bible that we may not all agree on what those things are (i.e., some things we would pretty much all agree are evil God seems to think are great). In any case, for him to design us so that we're inclined to chose "sin" is the strong indication that he's not real because that contradicts what the Bible is trying to tell us about him. That's what Aaron is trying to explain. God is an illogical notion.

Anybody with functioning reason centers in the brain can work that out. Open your mind to the idea that God doesn't exist. Start by freeing your mind. Say to yourself out loud, "God doesn't exist." Even if you don't believe it. Humor yourself. He'll obviously forgive you for that. Then acknowledge that for God to exist the Bible must be a reliable source of information. Then return to reading the Bible and question everything you read. Would it make any sense at all to do the things the Bible says he does if everything in the Bible is true? Can it all fit at once? If you still conclude that it makes perfect sense consider seeing a doctor. You're probably having a stroke.

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

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O hai. What have you guys been up to? I've been in crunch putting together a demo for our next round of pitches ;)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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I shared that video, mainly for fellow believers. I could care less what atheists think. Your response is always predictable... and old.

--
Deluxe Pacman (website now gone)
"I am not ashamed of my belief in God."

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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O hai. What have you guys been up to?

Well, Vulkan was released!

But my card (Nvidia 560 Ti) isn't supported by Nvidia for Vulkan...

It is rather disappointing, I suppose. Definite proof of evil right there.

This 700+ line example to draw a triangle is something I will not experience for some time.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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I don't think you see the flaw with your argument.

Yes, the Christian god being perfectly good is fine if he wasn't all powerful. I never argued otherwise. As a result, then there could be evil, but the god would unable to have created a world without evil. But that's not the Christian god!

It doesn't matter if the Christian god chose to do it "this way." If he was perfectly good, he wouldn't have chosen to "do it this way." Unless the Christian god purposely wants people to suffer and deny him? That's radical... (And also it's not "perfectly good.")

And for the record, the idea of "choice" when discussing an all knowing and all powerful creator is rather flimsy. He created the world where people deny him and commit sinful acts. He knew, yet created it anyway. The difference between a world without evil and a world with evil are completely arbitrary to an all powerful and all knowing being, and choosing one with evil over one with good is contradictory for the supposed Christian god (i.e., he is perfectly good).

The three criteria (all knowing, all powerful, and perfectly good) cannot all be true for the Christian god (by the Christian idea of "good"). He can be all knowing and perfectly good, or all powerful and all knowing, but all three? No. It's not logically sound because it's a contradiction.

God CAN be perfectly good, wise, and all-powerful. That doesn't preclude evil from existing in the world. Who are you to say that God can't allow evil if he is perfectly good? Perhaps the reason evil exists is to show people what good is. The fact that he gave us free will to choose one or the other doesn't mean that he isn't all powerful nor does it mean that he isn't perfectly good.

If God created a world that was perfectly good - ie. no evil, then that would be a world where free will didn't exist. You can't make everyone choose good and then call that free will.

You're caught up in the wisdom of the world. The wisdom of God puts the wisdom of men to shame. You simply have no faith to trust that God knows what he is doing. There is a purpose for everything. If you had the faith to ask God for wisdom, he would give it to you. But if you deny Christ then he will deny you.

Matthew 10:26-33 NRSV said:

Whom to Fear

26 “So have no fear of them; for nothing is covered up that will not be uncovered, and nothing secret that will not become known. 27 What I say to you in the dark, tell in the light; and what you hear whispered, proclaim from the housetops. 28 Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.[e] 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 And even the hairs of your head are all counted. 31 So do not be afraid; you are of more value than many sparrows.
32 “Everyone therefore who acknowledges me before others, I also will acknowledge before my Father in heaven; 33 but whoever denies me before others, I also will deny before my Father in heaven.

God is perfectly good.

James 1:12-18 NRSV said:

Trial and Temptation

12 Blessed is anyone who endures temptation. Such a one has stood the test and will receive the crown of life that the Lord[d] has promised to those who love him.
13 No one, when tempted, should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one.
14 But one is tempted by one’s own desire, being lured and enticed by it; 15 then, when that desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and that sin, when it is fully grown, gives birth to death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved.[e]

17 Every generous act of giving, with every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.[f] 18 In fulfillment of his own purpose he gave us birth by the word of truth, so that we would become a kind of first fruits of his creatures.

And God is perfectly wise. If you want to read about his wisdom, you can do it here :
https://bible.org/seriespage/4-wisdom-god

And God is all-powerful.

Ephesians 3:14-21 NRSV said:

Prayer for the Readers

14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,[g] 15 from whom every family[h] in heaven and on earth takes its name. 16 I pray that, according to the riches of his glory, he may grant that you may be strengthened in your inner being with power through his Spirit, 17 and that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith, as you are being rooted and grounded in love. 18 I pray that you may have the power to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

20 Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Matthew 19:23-26 NRSV said:

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it will be hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astounded and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “For mortals it is impossible, but for God all things are possible.”

The reverence of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom.

Proverbs 9 NRSV said:

Wisdom’s Feast

1 Wisdom has built her house,
she has hewn her seven pillars.

2 She has slaughtered her animals, she has mixed her wine,
she has also set her table.

3 She has sent out her servant-girls, she calls
from the highest places in the town,

4 “You that are simple, turn in here!”
To those without sense she says,

5 “Come, eat of my bread
and drink of the wine I have mixed.

6 Lay aside immaturity,[a] and live,
and walk in the way of insight.”

General Maxims

7 Whoever corrects a scoffer wins abuse;
whoever rebukes the wicked gets hurt.

8 A scoffer who is rebuked will only hate you; the wise, when rebuked, will love you.

9 Give instruction[b] to the wise, and they will become wiser still;
teach the righteous and they will gain in learning.

10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight.

11 For by me your days will be multiplied,
and years will be added to your life.

12 If you are wise, you are wise for yourself;
if you scoff, you alone will bear it.

Folly’s Invitation and Promise

13 The foolish woman is loud;
she is ignorant and knows nothing.

14 She sits at the door of her house,
on a seat at the high places of the town,

15 calling to those who pass by,
who are going straight on their way,

16 “You who are simple, turn in here!”
And to those without sense she says,

17 “Stolen water is sweet,
and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.”

18 But they do not know that the dead[c] are there,
that her guests are in the depths of Sheol.

Don't be a doubting Thomas.

John 20:24-29 said:

Jesus and Thomas

24 But Thomas (who was called the Twin[c]), one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands, and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe.”

26 A week later his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were shut, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe.”

bamccaig said:

There is no inherently "good" or "evil" deed. God would have to decide on a whim what he wishes to be "good" and what he wishes to be "evil". It's evident from the Bible that we may not all agree on what those things are (i.e., some things we would pretty much all agree are evil God seems to think are great). In any case, for him to design us so that we're inclined to chose "sin" is the strong indication that he's not real because that contradicts what the Bible is trying to tell us about him. That's what Aaron is trying to explain. God is an illogical notion.

Good and evil exist, and even a child knows the difference between them. What you call the evil of God is evil's just reward. God rewards good, and punishes evil. Does he not have that right?

2 Chronicles 7:22 NRSV said:

22 Then they will say, ‘Because they abandoned the Lord the God of their ancestors who brought them out of the land of Egypt, and they adopted other gods, and worshiped them and served them; therefore he has brought all this calamity upon them.’”

There's nothing illogical about God. You simply don't understand Him or His plan yet. God gives wisdom liberally to all men, if you ask for it in faith.

James 1:2-8 said:

Faith and Wisdom

2 My brothers and sisters,[b] whenever you face trials of any kind, consider it nothing but joy, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces endurance; 4 and let endurance have its full effect, so that you may be mature and complete, lacking in nothing.

5 If any of you is lacking in wisdom, ask God, who gives to all generously and ungrudgingly, and it will be given you. 6 But ask in faith, never doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind; 7, 8 for the doubter, being double-minded and unstable in every way, must not expect to receive anything from the Lord.

bamccaig said:

Anybody with functioning reason centers in the brain can work that out. Open your mind to the idea that God doesn't exist. Start by freeing your mind. Say to yourself out loud, "God doesn't exist." Even if you don't believe it. Humor yourself. He'll obviously forgive you for that.

My mind is open, and I choose to believe. I don't have to, but I've seen and experienced the truth of God's word in my own life, along with His power, and the healing that His forgiveness brings. He forgives those who repent in earnest, not those who simply expect to be forgiven, despite willfully doing evil. Pretending God doesn't exist won't save you. See above. Deny Christ, and he will deny you before the Father.

bamccaig said:

Then acknowledge that for God to exist the Bible must be a reliable source of information. Then return to reading the Bible and question everything you read. Would it make any sense at all to do the things the Bible says he does if everything in the Bible is true? Can it all fit at once? If you still conclude that it makes perfect sense consider seeing a doctor. You're probably having a stroke.

What part of the Bible is unreliable? Which parts are false? Please point them out to me, and I will do my best to educate you in your lack of knowledge. I'm in perfect health by the way.

As to those who say they won't listen to the Bible for information about God, that's like saying you won't read a textbook to learn math or science. And for those who say "Oh but there are so many religious texts in the world, how can I choose? How can they all possibly be right?" Well it's easy. Pick one, read it, and see if it comes true in your life. The Bible proves itself to be true time after time after time, which is one of the reasons so many people follow it. But you have to read it with understanding. Not everything is immediately apparent in the Bible. Jesus Himself tells us this.

Matthew 10:13-17 NRSV said:

The Purpose of the Parables

10 Then the disciples came and asked him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 He answered, “To you it has been given to know the secrets[b] of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to those who have, more will be given, and they will have an abundance; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 13 The reason I speak to them in parables is that ‘seeing they do not perceive, and hearing they do not listen, nor do they understand.’ 14 With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah that says:

‘You will indeed listen, but never understand,
and you will indeed look, but never perceive.

15
For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and their ears are hard of hearing,
and they have shut their eyes;
so that they might not look with their eyes,
and listen with their ears,
and understand with their heart and turn—
and I would heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. 17 Truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, but did not see it, and to hear what you hear, but did not hear it.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

Good and evil exist, and even a child knows the difference between them.

All animals have a comprehension of "good" and "bad". An abundant food source is good. A predator is bad. These things are hard-wired into most animals, probably having been either inherited from a common ancestor or naturally evolving in parallel. Or perhaps being obvious to a sufficiently conscious mind.

In any case, "good" and "evil" are a different matter. If you were to ask a child or even an adult not exposed to Christianity if something is sinful would they answer the same as the Bible? I mean, if they did, who would need the Bible to tell them? Nobody. A funny anecdote is Christians that believe that atheists are without morality because they don't believe in the Bible.

"Evil" is generally synonymous with "bad for my survival". The thing is, we're allowed to do things that are bad for everybody else's survival i.e., kill them (in particular, animals for food, but according to the Bible also other tribes/ethnicities). It's easy to understand how a primitive mind would define evil in these terms. It's difficult to accept that as reasonable these days.

Insert: A good example might be slavery. Do people naturally understand that slavery is evil? Obviously not or we wouldn't have such a long and disgraceful history of it. Do children naturally know that slavery is evil? I'd say no, though if you were to test it you may have a hard time finding one that wasn't "tainted" already by things they've been taught or observed. You certainly couldn't test a child that attends any kind of church or religious teachings. Would an adult member of a primitive native tribe in Africa that has been sheltered from the developed world think slavery was evil? I don't know, but I suspect not.

Alas, even the Bible seems to tell us that slavery is generally OK, as long as you enslave the right demographics.[1] How many Christians support slavery? Raise your hand. God apparently does.

In the grand scheme of things, it's easy to see that it doesn't really matter to the universe when an animal is slaughtered or even a human is raped or murdered. The universe keeps moving forward. Long after all the life on this planet has passed the universe will continue going. I see no actual "evil" on a universal scale. It's up to us as intelligent beings to define evil to be what we consider to be universally unpleasant, especially when it's threatening to our very survival or the survival of others. That said, we wouldn't necessarily consider it evil for a starving bear to kill and eat a man unprovoked. That's natural. It's no different than a starving man killing and eating a bear. Of course, men don't need to be starving to kill a bear. They don't even need to be hungry. Most humans don't even consider that wrong (I generally would in this particular space-time, but I wouldn't necessarily have in others).

Does he not have that right?

That is a meaningless question. If he has that right then who gave him that right? If nobody had to give him that right then why does somebody need to give me rights? Why can't I just assume them too? In other words, undefined. In particular, because there is no God.

There's nothing illogical about God. You simply don't understand Him or His plan yet. God gives wisdom liberally to all men, if you ask for it in faith.

That's just cult speak. Nothing meaningful in that. Human brains are far from perfect. Unfortunately, the more we believe things the more convinced we become that they're correct even without evidence. "Faith" is precisely the perfect formula for the wrong conclusion. The only hope you have of arriving at the correct conclusion is skepticism and careful, rational thought. Well, the only real hope you have is scientific testing, but where that is impossible you're left with skepticism and careful, rational thought (and doubts about your conclusions).

My mind is open, and I choose to believe. I don't have to, but I've seen and experienced the truth of God's word in my own life, along with His power, and the healing that His forgiveness brings. He forgives those who repent in earnest, not those who simply expect to be forgiven, despite willfully doing evil.

See above. Your mind is weak and is convincing itself of a delusion because you're unwilling to truly question it. I am very familiar with this way of thinking because I used to be like that myself (when I was 8). That is not an open mind. Anybody can say that their mind is open. Humorously, religious believers often assert that their minds are open and that everybody else's mind is closed. I'd have to say that this is another weakness of the human brain to fail to see the flaw in their own reasoning.

Pretending God doesn't exist won't save you. See above. Deny Christ, and he will deny you before the Father.

What does that even mean? That's a ridiculous thought. Is Jesus a conscious mind that chooses one by one whether or not to save somebody? Isn't everybody saved implicitly? What about God? Couldn't God just say, "Nah, fuck you Jesus, bambams is cool; he's in!?"

What part of the Bible is unreliable? Which parts are false? Please point them out to me, and I will do my best to educate you in your lack of knowledge. I'm in perfect health by the way.

We've already tried. You seem incapable of comprehending that using the Bible to support the validity of the Bible is a confirmation bias. There is no logical reasoning behind your beliefs. There are countless theists that acknowledge it, and for good reason. This leaves you as the weakest link trying to convince rational human beings that there is. Especially after countless debates and countless posts. Who are you really trying to convince, us or yourself?

As to those who say they won't listen to the Bible for information about God, that's like saying you won't read a textbook to learn math or science.

You don't need to read a textbook to learn math or science. Somebody could explain it to you, and explain experiments to verify it, and you could prove it to yourself through testing. This has already been pointed out in this thread at least once.

There's certainly the possibility that you could arrive at a different answer and challenge the knowledge of the rest of the world and that would be welcome. You'd have to be able to prove your results though so that other people could confirm them. Do that and you'd change everybody's minds that was willing to listen (everybody worth a damn).

There's also the possibility that you could be wrong. The tools are there for you to use. You can do so at you discretion. The difference is, unlike your religion, the math and science can actually be proven to be correct (or, it stands to reason, and is only as relied upon as the logic is until we can prove otherwise). Math and science are essentially both open to revision as necessary. That's something that you can never boast about your religious beliefs.

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
avatar

If God created a world that was perfectly good - ie. no evil, then that would be a world where free will didn't exist. You can't make everyone choose good and then call that free will.

Disregarding the concept of freewill (it's an illusion; the universe is fundamentally deterministic and any truly indeterministic portions are beyond control of humans or greater species), I can't choose to read the collected poems about the evils of the internet by George Washington because it doesn't exist. I also couldn't vote for Morgan Freeman as the Democrat Party's candidate back in '08 because he wasn't the nomination in '08. I can't choose to teleport, either, because that option is nonexistent. Yet, according to you, I have free will. And, of course, within most conceptualizations of free will that's true, because free will doesn't mean I can choose the impossible.

If evil is never an option (and therefore impossible), then I don't see how it denies free will. Similarly, you seem to fail to realize the Christian god apparently (and purposely!) made a world of hundreds--thousands!--of religions that deny his existence or superiority and purposely damned these people to hell. Is your god not all knowing and all powerful? If he were perfectly good (and I use "perfectly good" by the Christian idealization of good--I'm not going to pin humanist or Hindu or nihilistic or whatever else attributes to the Christian god because that's dumb--this is a note to clarify what I mean by "good" to others, for the record), this simply does not add up. He made a world where I chose to mercilessly clean my home in January, too--there was the choice I didn't clean, but... he made the world as it was on purpose, and therefore knew I would merciless clean my home. So much choice, huh?

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As to those who say they won't listen to the Bible for information about God, that's like saying you won't read a textbook to learn math or science.

That's not true and you know it.

Back in grade school / elementary (e.g., I was somewhere around 8 to 10 years old), we were given a small section of electricity in our "science block" or whatever you want to call it. I learned that certain materials allow electricity to pass through much better than others.

Within a small time frame afterwards, I was gifted some science-toy (a gimmicky, or perhaps low-tech, microscope sort of thing that acted more like an old-school rear projection television than your traditional cliche microscope) and it needed three D batteries to function. This particular type of battery was relatively uncommon and there were only two in the house.

Previously I learned from personal fiddling around (i.e., taking apart otherwise broken toys) that to power a light, or a motor, or whatever else, the circuit had to complete (i.e., the wires needed to form a loop).

So I had two previous observations that could easily be proven:

1) An electrically powered device has to have an unbroken connection to both terminals of a battery to function.

2) Certain materials conduct electricity better than others.

My hypothesis: If I complete the loop by using some conductive material between two functional batteries, then the microscope will work.

The experiment: I placed one battery in the left compartment and one in the right. I used a paperclip (made from a conductive material [because shiny metal!]) to connect both batteries and thus complete the circuit.

The result: It worked.

This was with an incredibly basic understanding of science and the scientific method.

Given a similar understanding, anyone could do the same. And, for example, with further understanding I've developed in 14? 16? years, I could replicate existing inventions given time and resources using the scientific method and my otherwise basic scientific understanding, such as radio communication or crude engines.

Do I know off the top of my head how to setup a radio system? Well, no. I don't. But I do know radio works by sending and receiving electromagnetic waves. And I know electricity can be generated using acids and certain metals, or by a coil and some magnetic source. If I were transported back into some time period of hundreds years prior--1800s, 1600s, 1000s, it doesn't matter--assuming other issues don't interfere, I would be able to replicate crude radio communication using existing observations, but more so because of the scientific method.

However, the same is not possible for any religion. It's asinine to argue otherwise. If all copies of the Bible were somehow destroyed and its followers croaked, the religion would die. It's simple as that. No future society would piece together the religion in any fullness from non-literary remnants, nor could they retroactively prove or verify it.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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I will briefly reply to a few things before I go to bed.

There's a lot more I want to reply to, but I simply don't have time to repudiate all the insane crap you guys are spouting.

bamccaig said:

In any case, "good" and "evil" are a different matter. If you were to ask a child or even an adult not exposed to Christianity if something is sinful would they answer the same as the Bible? I mean, if they did, who would need the Bible to tell them? Nobody. A funny anecdote is Christians that believe that atheists are without morality because they don't believe in the Bible.

Good and evil are easily discernible by anyone with half a heart. When one kid takes away another kids toy and he cries, the kid who took it away feels guilt and gives it back, because he knows he did wrong. Or he keeps the toy choosing greed and malice and chooses to ignore his conscience. People have a conscience to tell them when something is right or wrong. That some people choose to ignore it doesn't mean they don't know any better.

James 1:13-14 NRSV said:

13 No one, when tempted, should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one.
14 But one is tempted by one’s own desire, being lured and enticed by it; 15 then, when that desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and that sin, when it is fully grown, gives birth to death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved.[e]

bamccaig said:

Insert: A good example might be slavery. Do people naturally understand that slavery is evil? Obviously not or we wouldn't have such a long and disgraceful history of it. Do children naturally know that slavery is evil? I'd say no, though if you were to test it you may have a hard time finding one that wasn't "tainted" already by things they've been taught or observed. You certainly couldn't test a child that attends any kind of church or religious teachings. Would an adult member of a primitive native tribe in Africa that has been sheltered from the developed world think slavery was evil? I don't know, but I suspect not.

Yes, people naturally understand slavery is evil. See above. They are tempted by their own greed and desire to force their will upon others. It is a conscious choice.

God made rules for slaves for their well being. Not because he thought people should be slaves. Slaves were to be set free in the 7th year, unless they wanted to remain under their masters (because they were being taken care of). Also, God does not explicitly endorse slavery. He brought the Israelites out of Egypt precisely because they had been in bondage. He redeemed His people and set them free. He performed miracles for them, and led them through the Red Sea, and gave them manna and water from the rock. He gave them His Laws (for their well being) and when they broke them he punished them. Should a Father not punish his children when they do wrong? What would it teach them not to punish evil?

If you seek God, you will find Him.

Jeremiah 29:10-14 said:

10 For thus says the Lord: Only when Babylon’s seventy years are completed will I visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place. 11 For surely I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord, plans for your welfare and not for harm, to give you a future with hope. 12 Then when you call upon me and come and pray to me, I will hear you. 13 When you search for me, you will find me; if you seek me with all your heart, 14 I will let you find me, says the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.

bamccaig said:

That is a meaningless question. If he has that right then who gave him that right? If nobody had to give him that right then why does somebody need to give me rights? Why can't I just assume them too? In other words, undefined. In particular, because there is no God.

God has the right to punish his children because He is their Father. It is the right of a Father to choose how to treat his own children. Would you deny that? You're not making any sense. There are certain rights that most people can all agree that everyone has as living beings, whether they observe them or not. You do have rights. You're exercising one right now, in denying God and choosing not to believe in what He says. That's your right. And God gave it to you. If you really want to deny God, go right ahead. See how far it gets you. See how many blessings he chooses to give you when you won't even acknowledge his existence. Why should he bless and give anything further to someone who shows zero gratitude for what they've been given already?

bamccaig said:

See above. Your mind is weak and is convincing itself of a delusion because you're unwilling to truly question it. I am very familiar with this way of thinking because I used to be like that myself (when I was 8). That is not an open mind. Anybody can say that their mind is open. Humorously, religious believers often assert that their minds are open and that everybody else's mind is closed. I'd have to say that this is another weakness of the human brain to fail to see the flaw in their own reasoning.

You're mistaken. I've already questioned my beliefs, and been proven wrong about them. There was a time when I thought I had gotten to be where I was simply on my own, disregarding the blessings of God. And so He let me fall away, until I realized that true blessings come from Him. And then He returned them to me. My life has only improved since I've started believing in God. You can call it a coincidence if you like, but I know it's not. Can I scientifically prove it? No, but I still choose to believe it anyway, because he's shown me He's really there, and that He really cares. See above. "If you seek Me ye shall find Me." Believe it or not, I don't really care.

bamccaig said:

What does that even mean? That's a ridiculous thought. Is Jesus a conscious mind that chooses one by one whether or not to save somebody? Isn't everybody saved implicitly? What about God? Couldn't God just say, "Nah, you Jesus, bambams is cool; he's in!?"

Yes, Jesus is a conscious entity. He is the living Son of God. He chooses whether to reward or punish people based on their works. Do good and be blessed. Do evil and be punished. Pretty simple really. And Jesus obey's God, because He is His Father. If you've seen the Son, you've seen the Father. The Father is in the Son, and the Son is in the Father. He does the works of His Father, because he is an obedient, loving Son.

bamccaig said:

You don't need to read a textbook to learn math or science. Somebody could explain it to you, and explain experiments to verify it, and you could prove it to yourself through testing. This has already been pointed out in this thread at least once.

That's not true and you know it.

Back in grade school / elementary (e.g., I was somewhere around 8 to 10 years old), we were given a small section of electricity in our "science block" or whatever you want to call it. I learned that certain materials allow electricity to pass through much better than others.

Let me ask you both a question. Where would you two be without the collected knowledge of the ages behind you? That's what textbooks are, collected knowledge. Just how long did it take men to invent electricity anyway? Oh, somewhere around 10,000 years since the dawn of the Homosapiens. And where did you get your knowledge of electricity from? From a book. From the collected knowledge of the ages. That's what the Bible is, the collected knowledge of God and His prophets throughout the ages. If you hadn't been shown electricity, there is nearly zero chance you would have invented it by yourself. We are where we are today because of the collected knowledge of the ages. Where would man be without libraries? Nowhere.

Aaron Bolyard said:

However, the same is not possible for any religion. It's asinine to argue otherwise. If all copies of the Bible were somehow destroyed and its followers croaked, the religion would die. It's simple as that. No future society would piece together the religion in any fullness from non-literary remnants, nor could they retroactively prove or verify it.

You're a hypocrite. The exact same thing goes for you. If you lost all your textbooks you would be back in a cave with the cavemen shivering your ass off wondering where your next meal would be coming from. Just as scientific knowledge could be rebuilt through experimentation, so could the knowledge of God be rebuilt through His prophets. But the Bible's not going to be lost, because God gave it to us for our knowledge. He wants us to have His knowledge. He wants us to have wisdom. Destroy this temple, and I will rebuild it in three days. See if you can beat that. :P

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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Edgar, you're wrong and there's no point in continuing this discussion. I especially didn't think I was rude by any measure, but it seems I'm spouting "crap" and am a hypocrite (which is rather insulting in my situation). Disappointing...

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Aaron, you're right of course. Just spend your time doing more of that cool stuff instead of trying to save these people from their own personal Stockholm syndromes 8-)

--
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Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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Enough of silly questions. Believers, here are some common life things that I need you to enlight with your bible knowings.

What do the bible told you about masturbation ?
Do you think I'll take as granted that you didn't touch yourself around your fourteens ?
So will the bible help you with your son when he'll have "the devil" down in his pants ?

And what do the bible says about woman menstruation ? Will you tell your daughter that she have to hide from people because the bible says she's not 'pure' during her menstruation ?
Are you sure your wife's periods were always perfectly ended each time you had sex ? BE sure, it's a-stoning story.

And depending of your degree of brain obliteration, will you refuse blood/whatever transfusion/organ donation ?
Even if it's your son's life who's in danger ? Your own life ? Your wife life ?

???

edit

Edgar said:

And then He returned them to me. My life has only improved since I've started believing in God. You can call it a coincidence if you like, but I know it's not. Can I scientifically prove it? No, but I still choose to believe it anyway, because he's shown me He's really there, and that He really cares. See above. "If you seek Me ye shall find Me." Believe it or not, I don't really care.

It's basically Cauet's method with 'god/lord' word everywhere. You could have done it just telling yourself that whatever come it's still going to be better.
It's a scientific and proven effect, but now I'm lazzy to google for you.

"Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours"
Allegro Wiki, full of examples and articles !!

Onewing
Member #6,152
August 2005
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I coded a program that governs a 3D space (i.e. Universe) via light (in lieu of gravity) and time and initialized it (i.e. Big Bang) with a series of objects at varying degrees of light emission. Time causes the light to decay, but at various rates set by the initialization that creates various colors. The lights blend and have some degree of impact to all other light-objects.

The program attempts to create code to move (remember, no gravity in this system) the objects in ideal positions to maximize the light presented. When objects are moved in a way that creates bright white light, the code can spawn a new object inheriting its properties as a combination from the parent light-objects used to make it. The program compiles its code and runs it on a separate thread to ensure it doesn't crash before merging the code in.

I fast forwarded this system to see a future result. Lo and behold, I found an active pixel that served multiple light-objects where they had learned how to communicate with each other. Reading their conversations, I came across something interesting:

"Absolute proof that ONEWING EXIST (Pretty Cool)".

The discussion was very...colorful. I shut the program down because it was using too many resources on my machine.

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Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
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“Call on God, but row away from the rocks.” - Hunter S Thompson

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Please check out my songs:
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Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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And depending of your degree of brain obliteration

I was about to answer you, until I read that. If you want answers, try showing some respect and be civilized, if that is at all possible with you.

In the meantime, for my fellow believers (I don't expect any atheists to watch this or give it any chance at all). You may just like this. It is a lecture given by a former NASA engineer on evidence from our solar system that it is not that old. He has other videos as well that are worth watching. There's quite a bit that you are not told on those TV specials that tell you how the solar system came to be, and he covers all the problems and what you are not told in this. It's quite good. No preaching in it at all. Just the facts.

video

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"I am not ashamed of my belief in God."

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/05/22/creationist-heh-astronomy-hahahahahahahahaha/

This guy was allegedly an electrical engineer. His affiliation with Nasa, if it's even true (Google him; I saw nothing to verify this) doesn't help his credibility here because he's outside his field.

I'm only 11 minutes in so far, but his argument so far is essentially "scientific theories don't account for what we see" and therefore God. Ignoring whether or nor there's any validity in what he claims because we can't verify that without studying physics and astronomy, we can still debunk him quite simply: scientific theories being incomplete or flawed does not offer evidence for "creation theory". All of the scientific knowledge that we've accumulated could be 100% wrong and it still wouldn't offer the tiniest bit of support for the Bible stories. If you can't comprehend that then you're simply not intelligent enough to even be in this debate (which would explain which side you're on quite nicely, I think most would agree).

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Edgar, you're wrong and there's no point in continuing this discussion.

What a cop out. You're just being chicken because you know what I am saying made sense and you can't refute it properly.

Aaron Bolyard said:

I especially didn't think I was rude by any measure, but it seems I'm spouting "crap" and am a hypocrite (which is rather insulting in my situation). Disappointing...

The crap I was speaking of was mostly coming from bamccaig. And you really are overly sensitive, aren't you? It IS hypocritical of you to say that if the Bible disappeared Christianity couldn't survive if you don't also apply it to your own situation, which is what I showed that you did not do.

And no Christianity wouldn't be lost without the Bible. The main principle of Christianity is to love God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself. Calling you a hypocrite may not have been very kind, but at the same time it was not inaccurate of me to say so.

GullRadriel said:

Believers, here are some common life things that I need you to enlight with your bible knowings.

There's nothing wrong with the laws of God. They are made for people's good. But God also knows that his people will break them, whether intentionally or not. That is why God brought about a new covenant, based on grace, and not on the law, because he knew that the law gave power to sin. He took away the power of death (sin) through the reconciliation of Christ and grace.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 NRSV said:

A New Covenant

31 The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant that they broke, though I was their husband,[g] says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 No longer shall they teach one another, or say to each other, “Know the Lord,” for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and remember their sin no more.



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