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Absolute proof that GOD EXIST (Pretty Cool)
Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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bamccaig said:

Stop pretending to speak for God.

Stop pretending I read your posts (all I read was what you placed in bold), or remotely care what you think. When you can have a reasonable conversation without attacking, I'll gladly have a talk with you. My reply was to a specific person, otherwise I would not have posted.

God bless. :)

Mark Oates: Nice one. It is probably the most difficult thing to do, to forgive one's enemies and pray for them. But I am working on it... Bam doesn't make it easy for me though. ;)

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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Edgar, if you don't understand that there is no point in arguing by quoting a book that do not contain any scientific evidence, then you can't argue correctly.
Bible, like other religious book, is a matter of belief. As an atheist I do not have any belief in those books.

The difference with science is that even if your belief don't go along with it is still right when scientifically proven.

Johan: Yeah, there may be some light. Like do not kill your brother but kill the heretic, thehehe. The light in it is like the light in the politics. One light, tons of shit. If you need the bible to be a moral person, then it's an educational problem.

Plus common religions are misogynous, macho, and teach man to treat woman like shit. At least for the three main currents (Christianisme, Islamism, Judaism).
I challenge you to prove me the contrary ;D

Edit: and that goes without talking about homosexuals, relation without weddings, abortion,...

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Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

The difference with science is that even if your belief don't go along with it is still right when scientifically proven.

What's more, scientists will happily change their beliefs if proven wrong.

Still, we haven't really discussed the original "absolute proof" yet.

It's one the nicest Western traditions to doubt absolute truths, btw. IIRC, there were some revolutions (French, maybe American) about that, people dying for it etc. But who cares these days.

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

Plus common religions are misogynous, macho, and teach man to treat woman like shit. At least for the three main currents (Christianisme, Islamism, Judaism).
I challenge you to prove me the contrary

As I said, Lutherans (except Missouri synod) make no difference whatsoever between what sex or sexuality a person has. Our presiding bishop is a woman [1] and our bishop of California is openly gay [2]. It's only Catholics and some other misguided denominations who either make up or completely misinterpret the Bible. A lot of methodist and baptist churches allow women and gays as well but have other weird believes (usually stemming from their own misinterpretations of the Bible, for example methodists think you can't drink alcohol).

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Dizzy Egg
Member #10,824
March 2009
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...it's a book....I mean....I love Dark Eden by Chris Beckett, but I know none of it happened...it's just...a book? ???

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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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piccolo said:

Give me logic show me how to achieve random.

I once thought there was no such thing as random. Then I met you. :-X

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Elias said:

It's only Catholics and some other misguided denominations who either make up or completely misinterpret the Bible.

That's a very interesting statement. I have to wonder if you have even opened your bible and looked into what it actually says? Tell me, seeing as how I am one of those misguided individuals, explain to me what these verses really say...

Verses on homosexuality from both the old and new testament:

1 Corinthians 5:11 (NIV)
But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

Leviticus 18:22 (NIV)
Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

Isaiah 3:9 (NIV)
The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.

Jude 1:7 (NIV)
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Romans 1:26-27 (NIV)
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV)
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

And concerning women (all new testament quotes)...

1 Peter 3:1 (NIV)
Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behaviour of their wives,

1 Timothy 2:11-14 (NIV)
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (NIV)
Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Titus 2:3-5 (NIV)
Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

Can you honestly state, after reading those verses, that women should teach and preach in churches (they can teach other women and children actually, but not preach)? That homosexuality should be accepted as okay? Seriously? Which bible does your church go by, because mine says otherwise.

If you don't believe in God, none of this matters and in fact, many will get angry from this. But this is not directed at non-believers so chill out. But if you do believe in God, and claim the bible is His word, than should you not at least do what it says and not make up nonsense which is contrary to it??

Elverion
Member #6,239
September 2005
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Neil Roy said:

But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

1) "Brother or sister"? Do they mean literally (ie. don't have sex with your sibling), or figuratively (ie. brother/sister of the church)?

2) "Sexually immoral"? The meaning of that varies greatly by each person's perspective.

3) People seem to have no problem ignoring the rest of that quote, so why is that one specific thing left with any standing?

Quote:

Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

I'm not having sexual relations with a man at all. So does this mean it's okay for me to be gay and not go to hell? Lesbians get a free pass?

But seriously, "that is detestable" doesn't mean much. I dislike a lot of things and find them to be detestable, but it doesn't mean the people that do them are bad people.

Obviously that line only targets gay men. Can't speak from experience here, but do gay men not have sexual relations in different ways than "as one does with a woman"? Because, you know, lack of vagina and all.

Quote:

The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.

Um... okay?

Also, you know a lot more went on with Sodom and Gomorrah than allegedly gay sex, right?

Quote:

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

And yet again, "sexual immorality and perversion" is incredibly vague. It could mean absolutely anything, and is greatly influenced by culture. What you find "sexually immoral" might not be the same as what others find to be so.

Quote:

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Finally a quote that actually mentions gay sex! And...it's all meaningless. Again. Everything else was tossed out and ignored, but hey why not cherry pick the gay sex thing. Because, you know, you find it gross, and that means others shouldn't be allowed to do it.

Any "wrongdoer" will not inherit the kingdom of God? So what. If all of the things the bible said were true, that sounds like a pretty shitty and hateful place to go anyways. It still doesn't justify telling others they aren't allowed to do something that you don't like.

I know you said this wasn't directed at non-believers and all, but I just have to say, those aren't very convincing arguments. The problem here is that these things are used as a tool to justify unfounded hatred or just to control others.

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Elias
Member #358
May 2000

Since you quote Leviticus 18:22, what about the rest of Leviticus? Did you ever do work on a Sunday? Did you ever eat pork? Did you ever eat shrimp? Did you ever eat anything that contains fat? Did you ever shave? Did you ever forget to comb your hair? Did you ever were old cloths? It has about 100 random things you cannot do ... go read the whole chapter yourself and then still say you think every single thing in there said to be a sin is a sin and that you try and don't do any of those :P

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GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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Elverion & Elias both got bonus points for using bible against bible ;-p

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Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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Neil's post is an excellent example of how the Bible was so out of touch with humanity and why it is no longer acceptable to practice the horrible things it teaches.

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Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

If Neil got a phone call from Jesus, he wouldn't listen but concentrate on the background noise. :P

Now, how well have you listened, understood and adhered to Matthew 5-7, Neil?

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Elias said:

Since you quote Leviticus 18:22, what about the rest of Leviticus? Did you ever do work on a Sunday? Did you ever eat pork? Did you ever eat shrimp? Did you ever eat anything that contains fat? Did you ever shave? Did you ever forget to comb your hair? Did you ever were old cloths? It has about 100 random things you cannot do ... go read the whole chapter yourself and then still say you think every single thing in there said to be a sin is a sin and that you try and don't do any of those :P

I work all the time on Sunday. What special importance is Sunday? The Sabbath is on the 7th day (Exodus 20:8-11), or Saturday, not Sunday, you cannot find a verse anywhere in your bible that changed it to Sunday. But no, I never work on the real Sabbath, from Friday sunset until Saturday sunset.

As a matter of fact, no, I do not eat pork, or shrimp, or oysters, or lobster or anything that Leviticus 11 tells us is unclean (unhealthy), I haven't eaten in it many many years, and I rarely get sick. I don't recall reading anything about combing hair or shaving, please quote me the verses and I will look into it. I am more than willing to obey it, especially shaving, I have a beard and cannot stand shaving, so that isn't a problem for me. :)

My point is, and I noticed that you totally evaded it, is that the NEW TESTAMENT (even if you think the old testament is done away with, which it is not) also clearly states that homosexuality is wrong, and that women are not to preach. And the verses I quoted were written by Christ's own apostles, so how do you argue your way around that? Again, look at the verses (from the new testament only if that is what you prefer) and debate them! You cannot, you are evading it. It is the new testament that also speaks out against all this. And you stated that the bible doesn't, and your church seems to think it is all okay. I have proven your church wrong. Make fun of me and try and change the subject all you wish.

To the atheists: You will notice that those who claim to be Christian and claim to believe in God and the bible, when confronted with what it says, will suddenly do a 180 and act like we no longer have to obey it. But they are quick to point out how others are sinners... hypocrites.

I am different, I am strange... I try and actually study my bible and do what it says. I don't cherry pick my verses and ignore the ones I do not like.

Derezo said:

Neil's post is an excellent example of how the Bible was so out of touch with humanity and why it is no longer acceptable to practice the horrible things it teaches.

Unless of course, God is real, and the bible is his word, in which case this should be obeyed. Just look at the world around you and how it is going to crap since we have implemented all theses rights, and legalized sin. Is it really so much a stretch to think that maybe the bible has been right all along and that maybe what we are doing in our society today has been harmful to ourselves?

I just celebrated my 31st anniversary yesterday. My wife believes as I do, and she is quite happy, we both are. We never argue, we both share in all the work around the house (I cooked supper). Because you see, my bible also tells me to love my wife and not to be harsh with her, so I am not. But nobody who hates God focuses on those verses.

Elverion & Elias both got bonus points for using bible against bible ;-p

If I were them, I would not be too proud of that fact. They need to seriously rethink what they are doing and saying in here. For their own good.

Elverion
Member #6,239
September 2005
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Using the bible to attack people that you've arbitrarily decided you should hate -> Good
Using the bible to point out hypocrisy of bible-thumpers -> Horribly evil

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piccolo
Member #3,163
January 2003
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@Matthew Leverton

Nothing I do is random. You just have not figured on the pattern yet, so you label me as random. its just lack of understanding.

wow
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i am who you are not am i

Elverion
Member #6,239
September 2005
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Piccolo is using capitalization and proper English grammar and syntax now? Maybe there is a god.

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Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Neil, I bet we can agree on what we think of this ;)

video

Full version for those of you with nerves of steel:

video

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Elias
Member #358
May 2000

Neil Roy said:

I don't recall reading anything about combing hair or shaving

Leviticus 19:27 - Actually you are not allowed to trim your beard.

Leviticus 10:6 is about unkempt hair and torn clothes.

Quote:

My point is, and I noticed that you totally evaded it, is that the NEW TESTAMENT (even if you think the old testament is done away with, which it is not) also clearly states that homosexuality is wrong

Um, there's pretty big hints that Jesus himself was gay, the entire thing how he never really moves on with Mary Magdalene, but at the same time spends all his time drinking and vagabonding with a group of young males. And often the New Testament is rather explicit how Jesus is naked and lying on the other and guys at their orgies. And that with all the revisions done to the New Testament by the Catholic church :P So I at least am 100% convinced he was gay. Also 5 minutes of Google reveal there's the story where Jesus heals the gay slave of the Roman centurion - so Jesus clearly had nothing against gays and therefore neither should any Christian.

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Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Neil, I bet we can agree on what we think of this

I hate to admit it, but I would probably be her. ;) Only I wouldn't have put up with him nearly as long. :P

I'll ignore the long version.

What is interesting to me, is I know the passage they are talking about and it has nothing to do with a rapture (the "rapture" doctrine is not supported in the bible at all).

But I won't give a sermon here. ;)

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Edit

To all those who expect to be provided proof of God yet refuse to acknowledge the Bible, that's like a blind person refusing to believe in the world because they can't see it with their eyes. There are other ways to perceive the world, and God, if you simply open your spiritual eyes to his presence.

If you seek God, you will find Him. He wants you to prosper, not flounder.

Jeremiah 29:11-14 NRSV said:

For surely I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord, plans for your welfare and not for harm, to give you a future with hope. 12 Then when you call upon me and come and pray to me, I will hear you. 13 When you search for me, you will find me; if you seek me with all your heart, 14 I will let you find me, says the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.

Elias said:

Since you quote Leviticus 18:22, what about the rest of Leviticus? Did you ever do work on a Sunday? Did you ever eat pork? Did you ever eat shrimp? Did you ever eat anything that contains fat? Did you ever shave? Did you ever forget to comb your hair? Did you ever were old cloths? It has about 100 random things you cannot do ... go read the whole chapter yourself and then still say you think every single thing in there said to be a sin is a sin and that you try and don't do any of those :P

Have you ever heard that Jesus is Lord even of the Sabbath? And that the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath? Or how Jesus declared all foods clean when received with thanks and blessings?

Mark 7:14-23 said:

14 Then he called the crowd again and said to them, “Listen to me, all of you, and understand: 15 there is nothing outside a person that by going in can defile, but the things that come out are what defile.”[f]

17 When he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about the parable. 18 He said to them, “Then do you also fail to understand? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile, 19 since it enters, not the heart but the stomach, and goes out into the sewer?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.) 20 And he said, “It is what comes out of a person that defiles. 21 For it is from within, from the human heart, that evil intentions come: fornication, theft, murder, 22 adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, folly. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

1 Timothy 4 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) said:

False Asceticism

1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later[a] times some will renounce the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the hypocrisy of liars whose consciences are seared with a hot iron. 3 They forbid marriage and demand abstinence from foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, provided it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by God’s word and by prayer.

A Good Minister of Jesus Christ

6 If you put these instructions before the brothers and sisters,[b] you will be a good servant[c] of Christ Jesus, nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound teaching that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with profane myths and old wives’ tales. Train yourself in godliness, 8 for, while physical training is of some value, godliness is valuable in every way, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. 9 The saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance. 10 For to this end we toil and struggle,[d] because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

11 These are the things you must insist on and teach. 12 Let no one despise your youth, but set the believers an example in speech and conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. 13 Until I arrive, give attention to the public reading of scripture,[e] to exhorting, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you through prophecy with the laying on of hands by the council of elders.[f] 15 Put these things into practice, devote yourself to them, so that all may see your progress. 16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Elias said:

Um, there's pretty big hints that Jesus himself was gay, the entire thing how he never really moves on with Mary Magdalene, but at the same time spends all his time drinking and vagabonding with a group of young males. And often the New Testament is rather explicit how Jesus is naked and lying on the other and guys at their orgies. And that with all the revisions done to the New Testament by the Catholic church :P So I at least am 100% convinced he was gay. Also 5 minutes of Google reveal there's the story where Jesus heals the gay slave of the Roman centurion - so Jesus clearly had nothing against gays and therefore neither should any Christian.

Jesus is most certainly not gay. :P Nor did he marry a woman. Haven't you heard of the Bride of Christ? Ie. Believers. He is the Son of God, and if you've seen the Father, you've seen the Son. Jesus is part of the Trinity of God. If he was to have relations with flesh men/women, he would be having relations with his own children. God is clearly against this, as he destroyed the world with the flood of Noah to destroy the Geber, the hybrid children of "the sons of God" (the fallen angels) and women. Where do you people get shit like this? Do you believe everything you read on the internet? I am honestly dumbfounded at the amount of ignorance in this thread. As the Son of God, Jesus has the power to forgive sin, but that doesn't mean he condones it.

And Elverion, the Bible is clearly against homosexuality. To say otherwise, or try to re-interpret it as supporting it is completely mis-guided.

1 Corinthians 15:34 said:

Come to a sober and right mind, and sin no more; for some people have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.

Hosea 4 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) said:

God Accuses Israel

1 Hear the word of the Lord, O people of Israel;
for the Lord has an indictment against the inhabitants of the land.
There is no faithfulness or loyalty,
and no knowledge of God in the land.

2
Swearing, lying, and murder,
and stealing and adultery break out;
bloodshed follows bloodshed.

3
Therefore the land mourns,
and all who live in it languish;
together with the wild animals
and the birds of the air,
even the fish of the sea are perishing.

4
Yet let no one contend,
and let none accuse,
for with you is my contention, O priest.

5
You shall stumble by day;
the prophet also shall stumble with you by night,
and I will destroy your mother.

6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge;
because you have rejected knowledge,
I reject you from being a priest to me.
And since you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children.

7
The more they increased,
the more they sinned against me;
they changed their glory into shame.

8
They feed on the sin of my people;
they are greedy for their iniquity.

9
And it shall be like people, like priest;
I will punish them for their ways,
and repay them for their deeds.

10
They shall eat, but not be satisfied;
they shall play the whore, but not multiply;
because they have forsaken the Lord
to devote themselves to 11 whoredom.

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
avatar

That's a batshit amount of junk.

Lemme add mine:

Mickaël 1:1 said:

Note how 2000 years ago your god loved to make public manifestations against the evils, and how now the evil is higher than ever HE DO NOTHING.

Maybe it's because he's already bored of you all, maybe it's... because it's a fiction from mid ages ?

How is it possible that before we have the science to analyse them miracles suddenly do not occur anymore ? Maybe because most of it was human made ?

Clearly it was both a fiction and human made 8-)

And it's right because it's written by Mickael, a well known saint floating around here.
::)

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Elias
Member #358
May 2000

If he was to have relations with flesh men/women, he would be having relations with his own children.

He had plenty of relationships, and he was a man. That's what the bible tells us. There's plenty of stories where he's having fun wandering around from village to village, or gets angry about little things. Sometimes I feel I'm the only one who ever read the entire bible :P Jesus also must have had his childhood years and teenager years and everything (before the events of the New Testament). He was born in Bethlehem as a human child and lived a human life. The trinity is something completely different - but a lot of people have a hard time understanding it. My pastor back in Austria was talking about the meaning of the trinity quite often. This reminds me, I believe it also was her facebook where I first saw an article that Jesus may have been gay. I don't know if there is an official Lutheran position, but I assume to them it simply does not matter either way whether he was hetero or gay. Or asexual which is what you seem to be implying and I find ridiculous.

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GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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Not asexual, Trinitesque ! ;D

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piccolo
Member #3,163
January 2003
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"My pastor back in Austria was talking about the meaning of the trinity quite often. This reminds me, I believe it also was her facebook "

This says it all. I say no more.

wow
-------------------------------
i am who you are not am i



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