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Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Neil repeat after me I will not use memes for argument's I will use scientific data provided by real Studies by actual scientist not meteorologist by climatologist who know what the f*** you're talking about thanks.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

8-)
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Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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NiteHackr is going to be dead before global warming is irreversible. He personally can't do anything to make it worse.

It literally doesn't matter what he thinks, for him or others.

---
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NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

8-)
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raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

@Aaron The AGW hysteria types are claiming that we have only a decade or so before warming is irreversible. They might call you a climate science denier for pushing that deadline further away by decades. I'd suggest instead that the claim that the CO2 concentration will reach a point where it can't ever be reversed is possibly an anti-science position.

It has been pointed out in this thread that technology is being continually improved to capture carbon dioxide and store it in a stable form or convert it to liquid fuel (which is considered more or less carbon neutral since it is immediately recycling the CO2 instead of releasing CO2 trapped long ago). As humans trend toward being carbon neutral, and also capture CO2 already in the atmosphere, the added plant life that thrives from high CO2 concentrations will further help remove CO2 from the air.

As long as developing countries can get their emissions in check and the developed countries can stay the course, the CO2 concentration will decline.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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That was really fun to read through. Thank you for posting it. I was slightly disappointed that I didn't post in it, but not entirely surprised, and admittedly relieved that I at least didn't post anything embarassing. :)

A random idea that just came to mind (I'm not stoned... yet): maybe we could start a thread whose purpose was just to post a link to an interesting thread from A.cc's past. Whether it's programming related, controversial, just lots of trolling, or whatever. Something interesting to read, something to reminisce and remember if you were around for it. I suggest we don't post too frequently in it because long threads take time to read for people with busy lives, but we'd have to post frequently enough to keep it alive so it doesn't get locked.

We also don't want to pull people away from this thread because it would be a shame to let it lock now. Perhaps we could just periodically add a link to this thread even so that conversation could happen around it, but we'd have interesting links in between. The only caveat is that old threads are locked and it's sometimes hard to fight the urge to respond to posts that you disagree with. And we wouldn't want to necessarily rehash past flame wars here, albeit, it may be good for keeping this thread alive (and bad if Matthew uses it as an excuse to lock it!).

It literally doesn't matter what he thinks, for him or others.

Well, it matters to the extent that other people respect him enough to affect their own beliefs and behaviours.

Oh. Yeah. So it literally doesn't matter what he thinks. :P

raynebc said:

As long as developing countries can get their emissions in check and the developed countries can stay the course, the CO2 concentration will decline.

Those damned third world countries striving to be wealthy like us. What right do they have to pollute this planet full of our pollution that has made our lives so luxurious and pleasant!?

Developing countries are only going to regulate their emissions if already developed countries are willing to do so to the extreme. For the same reason that somebody struggling through poverty (that they were born into) isn't going to hesitate to commit crimes against somebody born into wealth to live an easier life. That's just human nature.

Developed countries are not "staying the course". We're continuing to increase production and pollution. Leading politicians in both the USA and Canada are backing out of their obligations to reduce emissions. They're doubling down on the oil industry. I wonder why. Surely the science has told them this is safe and reliable. Or wait, maybe it was the monopoly guy.

One thing is for sure. If the climate does get out of control the group of people that will be least affected are the rich and wealthy. It won't even phase them unless conditions get so extreme that the human population dies out (basically all potential subservients die). They will not give a moments notice to the destruction of millions of species of life, many of which may be completely undiscovered so future generations will have to discover them through indirect means the way we discover the dinosaurs. They also won't shed a tear or dollar for the struggles of billions of people, including pretty much everyone you ever met, including your offspring and any hope of your genes succeeding if such a thing exists.

The rich and wealthy like the oil industry big wigs, and to a lesser extent the politicians that deny climate change and give these billion (if not trillion) dollar industries every opportunity to fuck us over.

Niunio
Member #1,975
March 2002
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NiteHackr said:

Nuino, there tends to be LESS snowfall in COLDER weather.

Ok, I'll rebuild phrase myself:

I'm 42 years old. In my town (Burgos, Spain) more than 30 years ago we were about 1 to -20 Celsius every day of every winter and 50 centimetres of snow or more per-winter. It snowed once in May and other day in June (really). Last 10 years it were negative only one week or so per year, and it snowed one or two days in 3 winters (so 7 winters it didn't snowed at all) and never more than 15 centimeters. Period

Better?

-----------------
Current projects: Allegro.pas | MinGRo

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

Rich countries will have to share technology with poor countries in order to help them have clean energy, etc. I'd rather that than providing them with cash, which could be misappropriated. According to the EPA, the USA's CO2 emissions appeared to be trending upward until 2007 and have since been trending down:
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2019-02/documents/us-ghg-inventory-2019-chapter-2-trends.pdf

Peoples' absolute hatred of "the rich" can be a bit sickening, but they make a convenient scapegoat for all of your pain and suffering, don't they, Bam?

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Nice report. Try looking at it a little more closely next time. CO^2 has remained steady since 1990. It's the CO^2 equivalent of other gases that were reduced.

epa.gov said:

Gas/Source                 1990            2005            2013            2014            2015            2016            2017

CO2                        5,122.00        6,131.50        5,524.00        5,574.90        5,427.00        5,310.50        5,279.70

Fossil Fuel Combustion     4,739.50        5,745.50        5,158.40        5,202.00        5,051.20        4,966.00        4,920.50
Transportation             1,469.10        1,857.00        1,682.70        1,721.60        1,734.00        1,779.10        1,794.20
Electric Power Sector      1,820.80        2,400.90        2,039.60        2,039.10        1,903.00        1,811.20        1,734.00
Industrial                   857.40          853.40          839.90          819.90          808.80          808.50          817.60
Residential                  338.10          357.80          329.20          347.00          318.30          293.30          298.50
Commercial                   226.50          226.70          224.60          233.00          245.80          232.40          234.80
U.S. Territories              27.60           49.70           42.50           41.40           41.40           41.40           41.40

Which means basically no one has done much about CO^2 at all. Given that we are at record high concentrations of CO^2 in the atmoshpere

EDIT
raynebc you're right I misread the table. Also I am physically unable to reply to this thread anymore on my phone and my desktop doesn't have enough ram to open more then about 8 tabs. But u can edit and send to top. Mwahahaha
<\EDIT>

The history of CO^2 for the last 800,000 years can be easily seen in this time lapse animation of the graph of atmospheric CO^2 by NOAA and the ERST.

https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/history.html

You can see that it is currently higher than it has EVER been, around 400 ppm CO^2 concentration. The farther back in time you go the lower it goes until it reaches it's natural cycle with the ice ages.

The fact of the matter is that we are too braindead to know what concentrations of CO^2 higher than 3-4 hundred ppm will do to our planet.

NiteHackr believes the high CO^2 concentration is driven by temperature, and not the other way around. I'll just quote this :

Ice cores from Antarctica show that at the end of recent ice ages, the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere usually started to rise only after temperatures had begun to climb. There is uncertainty about the timings, partly because the air trapped in the cores is younger than the ice, but it appears the lags might sometimes have been 800 years or more.
Initial warming

This proves that rising CO2 was not the trigger that caused the initial warming at the end of these ice ages – but no climate scientist has ever made this claim. It certainly does not challenge the idea that more CO2 heats the planet.

We know that CO2 is a greenhouse gas because it absorbs and emits certain frequencies of infrared radiation. Basic physics tells us that gases with this property trap heat radiating from the Earth, that the planet would be a lot colder if this effect was not real and that adding more CO2 to the atmosphere will trap even more heat.

...

The ice ages show that temperature can determine CO2 as well as CO2 driving temperature. Some sceptics – not scientists – have seized upon this idea and are claiming that the relation is one way, that temperature determines CO2 levels but CO2 levels do not affect temperature.

To repeat, the evidence that CO2 is a greenhouse gas depends mainly on physics, not on the correlation with past temperature, which tells us nothing about cause and effect. And while the rises in CO2 a few hundred years after the start of interglacials can only be explained by rising temperatures, the full extent of the temperature increases over the following 4000 years can only be explained by the rise in CO2 levels.

So go ahead NiteHackr, try and convince me and science and the rest of the world that CO^2 is not a greenhouse gas. I'd love to see you argue with physics. Prove you're right, and you'd probably win a Nobel Prize. ;)

Or you can stick your head back in the sand. ::)

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

8-)
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raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

raynebc said:

According to the EPA, the USA's CO2 emissions appeared to be trending upward until 2007 and have since been trending down

Edgar, you do know how to read, don't you? The USA has been doing something about it.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

A really intellectual meeting of scientists discussing some of the problems with climate change science. Warning, your brain may explode while watching this, it goes really in depth and has some interesting conclusions I did not expect to be honest.

video

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Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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EDIT
raynebc, see my edit to my earlier post. I actually did misread it so... anyway the US actually has done quite a bit to cut emissions, considering it went from 5000 in 1990 to 6000 in 2007 and then reversed the trend completely and went back down to 5000 in 2017

Neil,
I just wasted 5 minutes and 26 seconds of my life watching the introduction to your video, and learned nothing. Post some science, or GTFO ;)

If you're going to post 40 min videos give a synopsis or summary of the key points, otherwise I'm not going to waste my time watching it.

Neil, Is CO^2 a greenhouse gas or not?

Wikipedia said:

Human activities since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution (around 1750) have produced a 40% increase in the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide (CO
2), from 280 ppm in 1750 to 406 ppm in early 2017.[6] This increase has occurred despite the uptake of more than half of the emissions by various natural "sinks" involved in the carbon cycle.[7][8] The vast majority of anthropogenic carbon dioxide emissions (i.e., emissions produced by human activities) come from combustion of fossil fuels, principally coal, oil, and natural gas, with additional contributions coming from deforestation, changes in land use, soil erosion and agriculture (including livestock).[9][10]

So raynebc, why is a (not the) Green New Deal a bad thing again?

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

Why is it a bad deal? Because it would be a radically-Socialist takeover of the economy and prosperity would probably decline. The USA is leading by example already, we don't need to kill ourselves to do that.

Government may have to make some reasonable demands for people, like a requirement for homeowners to either plant a particular number of trees/plants on their property or install solar panels on their roof. I believe California has done the latter, but IIRC they've also recently forbidden people from watering their lawns because that state mismanages their water supply and couldn't handle a drought. Fines might not be necessary though, offering tax benefits is probably a good enough way for many people to adopt these things.

Lab grown meat is an interesting idea to reduce the use of livestock, but I suppose it remains to be seen how long it takes for it to become price competitive with traditional meat. I also don't know if there are any particular nutritional deficiencies or other problems with lab meat, since some of those types of things depend on the animal's diet.

Personally, I've recently gotten interested in hydroponic gardening. It's a pretty good way to grow food with a limited amount of water. I have a jalapeno plant growing in a 5 gallon bucket in my bedroom, and it's fruiting. My room has poor natural lighting, so the plant is living off of about 60 watts of direct LED lighting for 16 hours per day. If I weather proofed well enough to protect the air pump, I could grow it outside. This summer I'm going to grow peppers and tomatoes in organic soil in sub irrigation planters outside. It wouldn't hurt for people to grow more of their own food, but it requires some amount of effort and learning and you know how people are.

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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One of the worst literacy rates of the developed world, worst infant mortality rates of the developed world, 70 million Americans have medical debt or difficulty paying for their medical bills, 43rd in life expectancy, major household income disparities by race, ...

USA leading by example. ;D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-medicaldebt/consumers-face-rising-medical-debt-survey-idUSN1932186920080820

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/us-infant-mortality-rate-still-one-highest-developed-world-n404871

I guess because capitalism allows 1% of the population to collectively have much wealth as the bottom 50%+ it's ok tho, gotta pull on those bootstraps!

---
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NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

video

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Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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What, you're bringing William Happer back into this? bambams already showed he was discredited.

Quit trolling with your fake news trump propaganda.

#DumpTrump

Gonna be my new Twitter handle. ;)

@raynebc
I said, and (are you having trouble reading now?) I quote paraphrase, what is wrong with the /idea/ of a Green New Deal?, not what is wrong with the current implementation proposed for a Green New Deal.

Growing your own food? Props. ;)

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

8-)
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Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Knight hacker if you don't understand what the phrase climate change means then I can't help you anymore. ::)

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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if you don't understand what the phrase climate change means then I can't help you anymore.

It means that no matter what happens, the people who want to tax the US and spread the money all over the world will be justified, no matter what happens (unless things stay exactly the same, which is virtually impossible)

“Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty. This is known as "bad luck.”

― Robert A. Heinlein

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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So you're okay with more hurricanes tornadoes thunderstorms desertification and flooding?

and of course rising sea levels and global weather pattern change don't bother you either

And never mind the crop failures starvation and famine.

That's what climate change is dude

And that's what could happen if we do nothing

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

Arthur Kalliokoski, you may as well talk to a brick wall than to say anything to Edgar. You can show him a ton of evidence against the global warming, global cooling, climate change fraud and he would still demand you show him more evidence, or summarize it for his feeble little brain and then tell you the same old garbage responses about how you are wrong all over again. I gave up on him, I much prefer talking to brick walls.

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Climate change is a joke... an expensive, very harmful one at that. And so I treat it as the joke that it is. I have posted video after video after video with real scientists who tell us why climate change is a fraud and it does not good, at least in here. Statistics show a greater population are waking up and seeing it as the fraud it is. Thank God.

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raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

@Aaron I don't care if you dislike the USA and capitalism, no matter how many cherries you happen to pick.

@Edgar Green energy policy is one thing, polluting it with Socialism suggests that it is more likely just another corrupt omnibus grab bag. A reasonable green energy policy is NOT one that will make radical moves like banning gas powered automobiles in the span of a decade or two like some of the more extreme countries in Europe, especially when there is not sufficient public transportation in this country. A reasonable green energy policy is NOT one that will not drastically hike energy costs, which will disproportionately burden the poor.

The problem with the end of the world predictions about climate change is that they've been making those claims for too long with insufficient evidence/data. I'm fine with taking slow steps in the direction they want because fossil fuels might eventually run out, although that's looking like that doesn't even have to be the case since CO2 can be captured and combined with H2 to create liquid fuel. I'm not fine with making a gross overreaction when it will cause a large, guaranteed negative effect in order to avoid a large, theorized negative effect.

Edit: One of my VERY liberal friends is into environmental causes and has described to me how automated cars could eventually be used as a fleet of taxi service vehicles, possibly on a subscription type basis where the rider has no burden of ownership or maintenance, the vehicle is just allocated when needed. That's the kind of thing I could see happening as highly efficient automated cars would greatly reduce vehicle congestion, energy use, etc.

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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Classic response.

Literally outside of a few issues most other developed countries beat the US, those were literally off the topic of my head and took seconds to verify.

Because of the US's incredible health care system, I had to take care of my mother for six years before she died. All the while, growing up, we lived below the poverty line. My life was put on hold for six years. I am now playing catch up--going to school while working a severely low-paying programming job--while dealing with severe mental illness. The only lucky break I've had is I receive Medicare. Otherwise I'd probably be one of the homeless insane hobos right now.

When you call USA #1 and I've lived the life I have, I simply can't agree.

---
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raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

If you want to blame the country for your unusually poor results, that's your decision. It's tough to have enough resources to raise children without a partner. Poor results can come from poor luck as well as poor choices, they needn't all be blamed on other people.

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