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Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Chaotic doesn't really mean unlawful in any context outside whichever games used it, does it?

As for Robin Hood, though, consider that he's stealing from the king who stands behind tax law to carry out mass debilitating theft on an entire country. Laws are only as ethically sound as the general public consensus on them - we can't say in absolute terms that breaking the law is never good.

And as for modern-day rich people, how about bankers who play the system, pay themselves handsome bonuses and then enjoy their luxuries while everyone in Greece is blocked from withdrawing any of their cash? Can you really assert that everyone should agree that every law-abiding rich person really deserves that money?

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Lawful's only have to follow laws that are "just".

Choatic's strive to be free of bureaucracy, can be reckless, etc.

And you can be lawful evil, someone who loves bureaucracy and exploits it to hurt people.

But it's just a game system. I don't know if it's really designed to model the entirety of human morality.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Neil Roy said:

Just saying, stealing is not good. Therefore, chaotic good is an oxymoron as you cannot be chaotic AND good, the two are polar opposites. If you steal, you're not good, I don't care who you give the stolen loot to, you still stole them. And now, not only are you a thief, but the people you have given the stolen loot to, at least in my country, could be charged with possession of stolen goods if they are caught with it, so you're even more evil for causing them trouble! :)

Morality is not so black and white. There's no such thing as universally "good" and universally "evil". They're subjective, and rarely if ever are they black and white. That's one of the problems with religion. It teaches people to judge things harshly without really being able to comprehend that it's more complicated than that.

Neil Roy said:

But... I guess nobody in here will mind if I break into your homes and steal all you worked for, so long as I give it away to the poor right? ;D

Apples to oranges. I am not a very rich man. Also, Robin Hood never takes everything. He's taking a negligible amount. The rich wouldn't even feel it. It means nothing to the rich, but it means everything to the poor.

Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
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My desktop (running Windows 10) has been crashing a lot lately with "MEMORY_MANAGEMENT" errors, so yesterday I ran Memtest86+. Sure enough, it found errors. I ran the test three times: first time on all of the memory; the second time on just one of the sticks; and the last time on the other stick. Only one of my RAM sticks displays errors, so I removed that one. I had 16GB but am now operating on 8. I haven't had any errors or crashes since then, so I'm happy about that, but a bit bummed about losing half my RAM. :(

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

Did you test that same stick in different slots?

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
avatar

Did you test that same stick in different slots?

Yes. :(

Edit:
Actually, I tried it in only two of four slots. The test took about an hour each time, so I ran out of patience by the end. Do you think the slot itself might be bad and not the RAM necessarily?

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

It's more likely RAM, however, in my recent case, it was my motherboard. Most CPU/mobo these days have two RAM channels (two DRAM controllers). When I changed a heatsink, my motherboard didn't have all the proper mounting screws and flexed a tiny bit when I put my memory back in. From then on, one channel had a bit error, which affected both of the slots for that memory channel. (Usually denoted by two slots of the same color. One pair black, one pair blue.)

It was a PITA to discover.

Had to buy a new motherboard.

New board works fine, but somewhat sadly, the audio chip layout is designed poorly and has constant low-volume noise/buzzing which is audible when I use headphones in silence.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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[edit: I reread how you tested it and it doesn't sound like a dual channel issue, I think you've got a bad stick]

It could be that the RAM cannot be run in dual channel mode. If they were purchased separately (ie. not two in the same package), even if they are the same brand and model, this can happen if the timings are slightly different between the two sticks.

I would try another slot, but if you tried two already there's a good chance it's just the stick. :-/

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
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I tested it again this morning in all four slots and it still returned errors. So I'm certain now it's the stick and not the slots.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Yeah, I figured it was more likely the stick. But you always want to be sure.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
avatar

Definitely. Thanks for the help.

On the subject of RAM, do you think it's worth upgrading from DDR3? I've never experienced DDR3 being a bottleneck, so I'm not sure whether or not the improvements of DDR4 or DDR5 would warrant the added cost.

MiquelFire
Member #3,110
January 2003
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You can't put DDR4 RAM into a DDR3 slot. So upgrading to DDR4 or DDR5 would require a new motherboard.

After a quick Google, it appears DDR5 is not yet out for system memory yet.

---
Febreze (and other air fresheners actually) is just below perfumes/colognes, and that's just below dead skunks in terms of smells that offend my nose.
MiquelFire.red | +Me
Windows 8 is a toned, stylish, polished professional athlete. But it’s wearing clown makeup, and that creates a serious image problem. ~PCWorld Article

Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
avatar

You can't put DDR4 RAM into a DDR3 slot.

Yeah, I know that. I'm thinking about the future though.

Edit:
So some games that used to crash on me now play perfectly fine since removing my bad RAM. :D Most notably, I've been able to play DOOM (2016) again recently. I'm blown away by how good DOOM looks.

jmasterx
Member #11,410
October 2009

Nice

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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DDR4 has almost zero speed upgrade from DDR3 in games. We're talking less than 1 FPS, in benchmarks I've seen.

Get whatever is cheap. Get lots of RAM. But don't worry about "fast" RAM.

{"name":"76727.png","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/5\/2\/52e7ef4a816fafe55ad392a648181832.png","w":650,"h":400,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/5\/2\/52e7ef4a816fafe55ad392a648181832"}76727.png

Note the top two lines.

You can't put DDR4 RAM into a DDR3 slot. So upgrading to DDR4 or DDR5 would require a new motherboard.

... new motherboard... and new CPU. Memory controllers are on CPU now. Ryzen is DDR4. FX is DDR3. You can't swap.

It's possible certain Intel chipsets support both (have two sets of memory controllers). But meh, the performance gain is near ZERO, and DDR4 costs INSANE prices these days. Like $400 for 32GB. (I paid $100 for 32GB of DDR3.) And memory prices have been going up like crazy the last few years. (At least 2X up for DDR4 in two years.)

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-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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That's the entire point. ::)

If you can't even get 1 FPS, it doesn't matter. You're not going to notice a 5.23 vs 5.15 hour zip/movie transcoding. You're not going to notice 1 FPS. DDR3 vs 4 doesn't matter for 99% of use cases.

Modern systems aren't RAM speed limited... they're RAM latency limited.

Even 7zip won't change:

{"name":"76275.png","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/2\/e\/2eeb5e182c387501a74f69c65d59ffba.png","w":650,"h":400,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/2\/e\/2eeb5e182c387501a74f69c65d59ffba"}76275.png

If I'm paying more that twice the price I better be getting more than 1% of !%#@ing improvement.

Eventually, DDR4 will be cheaper for larger sizes. It was the same way with DDR2 vs DDR3. DDR2 was almost as fast, but DDR3 eventually became cheaper to get larger and larger sizes of RAM so it eventually switched over to being more price-effective.

But currently? DDR4 is years from becoming competitive in terms GB of RAM or in terms of performance.

So if you want to throw money away, throw it into a better CPU or videocard. But higher DRAM speeds rarely yield anything because all they do is increase the latency and clock higher so their effective latency is around the same:

{"name":"c3-speed-vs-latency-table.png","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/9\/e\/9e109a58b7c17857f56149c36bd9a073.png","w":1200,"h":575,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/9\/e\/9e109a58b7c17857f56149c36bd9a073"}c3-speed-vs-latency-table.png

And that's from crucial... the memory manufacturer. They list multiple DDR4 modules that are effectively slower than DDR3's!

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

Time to test out how far back automatic quotation attribution can go.

Polybios said:

Just spending some time here while starting up a Java application...

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Uh, why are you quoting FPS from a game as an indicator of the speed impact of DDR4 vs DDR3? That has almost zero to do with your framerate, as cpu memory access is not your bottleneck.

Chris Katko said:

That's the entire point. ::)

If you can't even get 1 FPS, it doesn't matter.

So only gaming FPS is important. Think database and high traffic web servers. Don't be so narrow minded.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

You're in a strange nitpicking mood lately.

If you want to pay double to get 7% increase in your 7zip extraction, more power to you. ::)

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
avatar

You're in a strange nitpicking mood lately.

If you want to pay double to get 7% increase in your 7zip extraction, more power to you. ::)

I don't give a shit about 7-zip extraction, it's more than fast enough as it is.

I said:

So only gaming FPS is important. Think database and high traffic web servers. Don't be so narrow minded.

It might not do your average joe much good, but to say DDR4 is not worth it, well not for you, but maybe for other people it is. Servers need to have fast access to memory caches of files and databases. That's pretty much a given.

And since when did servers extract 7z files for you?

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
avatar

but to say DDR4 is not worth it, well not for you

Well, his reply was in response to Eric's post which was about... gaming.

You seem on edge lately, perhaps you need to sit back and relax to some relaxing music and browse some scenic images. ;) Works for me.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
avatar

Okay, what, that's not good enough? I have to explain myself further?

What about audio and video processing and encoding? What about people working with gigantic 3d terrain files? It could be worth it for them. You're so quick to dismiss me, but what he said was making a lot of assumptions. I point them out, and now I get told I need to take a chill pill. Real time loading of textures? Re-uploading bitmaps to the GPU upon demand? The list could go on, but why. :P

Arvidsson
Member #4,603
May 2004

So what you're saying is that DDR4 is never worth it?

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

So what you're saying is that DDR4 is never worth it?

If you're talking to me, you're either joking, or not reading my comments. DDR4 isn't worse, it's the same thing with a higher density. It costs more now but will cost less per GB later as manufacturers ramp up production. It's the exact same thing that happened with DDR2 when DDR3 came on. Eventually, it will be cheaper to get huge sizes of DDR4 than equally large sizes of DDR3--but not now. Buy whatever CPU/videocard/etc you want. But buy it for the hardware and let the RAM be a secondary decision.

Edgar: I've provided amble evidence. Over and over. MEMORY LATENCY is the bottleneck and DDR4 is the same latency.

Video encoding:

{"name":"DDR_01.png","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/0\/7\/07665af926bd97cdf06bd01467ca7a84.png","w":1299,"h":650,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/0\/7\/07665af926bd97cdf06bd01467ca7a84"}DDR_01.png

And here's a page on JUST DDR3 vs DDR4. EVERY BENCHMARK IS THE SAME. Games. Video encoding. Zips. And the whole beginning of the article explains why... latency.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/9483/intel-skylake-review-6700k-6600k-ddr4-ddr3-ipc-6th-generation/7

So unless you can actually provide evidence to back up your claims, I don't really need to respond anymore. I've provided both empirical evidence, and theoretical (latency) for why it doesn't matter. And you've responded with "Nuh-uh!"

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"Memory latency continues to be a critical bottleneck."

{"name":"c3-speed-vs-latency-table.png","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/9\/e\/9e109a58b7c17857f56149c36bd9a073.png","w":1200,"h":575,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/9\/e\/9e109a58b7c17857f56149c36bd9a073"}c3-speed-vs-latency-table.png
"Oh look, the latency is the same."

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

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