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Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

What, like in that {u,dys}topian future where machines overtake us in all fields of work and, although we have abundance and no longer need such concepts as employment, we have to find a new way to give our lives meaning, and can go swimming a lot?

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

amarillion
Member #940
January 2001
avatar

I meant work designated for this thread...

But you raise an interesting notion. I don't think work will run out before Humanity has colonized the solar system and then space. So there is some work to do still.

--
Martijn van Iersel | My Blog | Sin & Cos | Tegel tilemap editor | TINS 2017

MiquelFire
Member #3,110
January 2003
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There is always work to be done!

---
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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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"Work" is a measure of physical change. In that sense there is no shortage of "work". In the practical sense applicable to mankind I imagine "work" could run out sooner than later if we could work together instead of trying to stand upon one another. Less "us" than "them", which pretty much just means there is an elite group of humans (men and women) with high social class, wealth, and power that wish to keep it and pass it on to their descendants and are willing to do anything it takes to do so. I imagine a wonderful day when we all just swear off "money" and share with our neighbors. The elite have no real power if their pawns lay down arms and side with the other color pawns[1]. :)

References

  1. As a side drunken note, I wonder how a game of chess would play out if there were 3 independent sides: white, black, and pawns. :o
Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

Threads lock because there's no discussion. Move on!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Years of thorough research have revealed that the red "x" that closes a window, really isn't red, but white on red background.

Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest.

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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Some threads deserve to wait longer before their death.
8-)

"Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours"
Allegro Wiki, full of examples and articles !!

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

bamccaig said:

As a side drunken note, I wonder how a game of chess would play out if there were 3 independent sides: white, black, and pawns

The pawns would be easy to take out. In the starting position everyone else is behind them, but they are the only ones who can only move forward. So without actually trying it, my guess is in just 8 turns you can wipe them all out.

Pretty much how it would play out in your utopian scenario in reality :)

Quote:

humans (men and women)

You must be very drunk, or something happened to you between now and a year ago...

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

Elias said:

The pawns would be easy to take out. In the starting position everyone else is behind them, but they are the only ones who can only move forward. So without actually trying it, my guess is in just 8 turns you can wipe them all out.

Yes, probably the fact that pawns can only move a single space forward under normal play would make them little more than meat shields between the other forces. But who knows. There may be a more complex nature to the game. It might be interesting to explore.

Elias said:

Pretty much how it would play out in your utopian scenario in reality :)

In real life the pawns greatly outnumber of the specialized classes and they are far stronger than in the game.

Elias said:

Quote: said:

humans (men and women)

You must be very drunk, or something happened to you between now and a year ago...

I never said women weren't human. I only said they weren't men. :-*

jmasterx
Member #11,410
October 2009

Only on a.cc can a forum thread about forum threads go from programming threads to theoretical chess matches 8-)

I wish Dr. Leverton could pull some statistics on thread derailment >:(.

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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Too soon to die. >:(

"Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours"
Allegro Wiki, full of examples and articles !!

jmasterx
Member #11,410
October 2009

Alex: Often used to keep a forum thread alive, this term can also mean snorting cocaine.
Contestant: What is a Bump?
Alex: Correct!
Contestant: I'll take Extending The Lifespan for $1000...
>:(

Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

bamccaig said:

I wonder how a game of chess would play out if there were 3 independent sides: white, black, and pawns.

What does the board setup look like?

Bob Keane
Member #7,342
June 2006

Back on the original topic. Check out the number of posts on this thread. Is that some sort of record?

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Hi Randall Monroe.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
avatar

What does the board setup look like?

I had assumed a normal board setup. Now things are getting interesting. What if you placed the pawns on the sides instead of in normal formation?

+--------+
| RNKQNR |
|P  BB  P|
|P      P|
|PP    PP|
|PP    PP|
|P      P|
|P  BB  P|
| RNQKNR |
+--------+

The pawns are still fucked, but who knows... ??? Of course, I'm sure there are plenty of ways that you could setup the board. If you put some thought into it you might be able to think up a way to give the pawns a fighting chance.

Bob Keane said:

Back on the original topic. Check out the number of posts on this thread. Is that some sort of record?

Unlikely. Some boards are known to have long running threads. For example, motorcycle forums tend to have "picture challenge" thread where somebody is "it" and posts a wacky photo idea that the players have to try to satisfy (usually something like "your bike next to rare noun" or "your bike doing rare verb"). The idea being that it's a game played in the real world intended to get people out riding their bikes looking for the target of the current game. These threads are usually indefinite so they never close and the forums are often international with thousands upon thousands of members...

Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

bamccaig said:

If you put some thought into it you might be able to think up a way to give the pawns a fighting chance.

How about pawn promotion occurring when a pawn meets an opposing pawn of the same rank?

If you're into this sort of thing, I recommend Knightmare Chess.

Andrei Ellman
Member #3,434
April 2003

although we have abundance and no longer need such concepts as employment, we have to find a new way to give our lives meaning

*COUGH*art*COUGH*

bamccaig said:

The elite have no real power if their pawns lay down arms and side with the other color pawns[1]. :)
References

As a side drunken note, I wonder how a game of chess would play out if there were 3 independent sides: white, black, and pawns. :o

Here is a game of chess played out when one of the pawns realises what is really going on - as shown on a Commodore VIC-20 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el9S1GNp4vQ

--
Don't let the illegitimates turn you into carbon.

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

But these artificial brains can do art, and most people can't! What about all the people who can't? ;) Maybe most of those people will be happy just to have pampered lives. Who knows?

In a further thread-prolonging effort, I have a story to tell.

I booked something through airbnb. They told me at the last minute that my quoted price included a 3% currency conversion fee. They didn't offer to bill me in local currency. I can't work out if they're violating regulations. What they did let me do is pay via PayPal instead of using a card directly, and in that case, I could choose the billing country and avoid the fee.

I put my foot in it with PayPal though. Apparently I reached a spending limit with them and had to set up a bank account link to lift that limit (something about verification legally required). I did that, and then the payment worked. What I failed to do was change the default payment method back to my credit card. So, they used the bank account link, and automatically charged me a currency conversion fee very similar to what airbnb would have charged me. I think even PayPal would have passed the charge on in its original currency if using a credit card (as I said, regulations), but presumably when using a direct debit, that option just doesn't exist. I'm sure they knew that when they decided that the bank account link should become the default mechanism once set up, and I wonder how true the "verification legally required" part is.

For a one-off mistake, the amount is easy to forget. It's the principle that absolutely effing pees me off. They did not earn that money from me - they scammed me - and I am livid. It's not even just one company - you can't so much as breathe without every company out there trying to scam you all at once, and one is bound to succeed. OK, I'm exaggerating a little.

I'll balance this by praising easyJet, who very exceptionally waived their flight change fee for me so I could participate in a performance of Prokofiev's Classical Symphony which is this Friday in case anyone's in Cambridge. I've wanted to do that piece for years. Yay <3

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

amarillion
Member #940
January 2001
avatar

Currency conversion fees are definitely a way for them to skim a little off the top. And if there are no fees, you know that they screw you by picking an unfavourable currency conversion rate.

I regularly have to transfer between EUR / GBP, and it definitely pays to shop around a little on how you do the transfer.

But the very easiest solution would be for Britain to finally join the Euro. No more conversion fees! Transferring money anywhere within the eurozone is so easy and transparent. Most banks don't even have a separate page for international / national payments anymore, it's all one system.

--
Martijn van Iersel | My Blog | Sin & Cos | Tegel tilemap editor | TINS 2017

Ben Delacob
Member #6,141
August 2005
avatar

If the pawns were another team, they would probably be used as weapons against the opposing team, and therefore not eliminated immediately. However, it's often opposing pawns that prevent promotion. Assuming the pawns were collaborating and that promotion did not mean defection, I think they would have an occasional chance.

__________________________________
Allegro html mockup code thread -website-
"two to the fighting eighth power"

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

I managed to cancel the direct debit instruction with my bank before PayPal managed to collect the funds. PayPal have noticed and e-mailed me to say that my bank account link can now be used to withdraw funds but not to fund things. There's no change to the so-called "completed" payment: it still says paid using the bank account, with my credit card as a backup funding source, and my card hasn't yet been charged.

I did some Googling. Apparently PayPal/eBay scams exist, where people pay using PayPal using a direct debit (whereby PayPal will advance the money and are required to give three days' notice before charging the direct debit), and they then cancel the direct debit and ensure the card will fail too. After something like three weeks, PayPal then recover the money from the recipient who has probably already sent the item. So, if that's anything to go by, the payment should be charged to my card, but if for some reason they don't do that, then I can expect all hell to break loose with my airbnb booking ;D

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

If you're talking about paypal making a mistake, they didn't make a mistake. That is how they operate. The default funding source is always your bank account unless you change that. And they charge a pretty hefty currency exchange fee on top of their normal fees. I ended up calculating it was about 6% total after all was said and done when i was paid for work via paypal.

Now I have a US bank account that i get paid directly to, then transfer that through xetrade to my canadian account. Over all that ends up being only about 1.5-3% total. xetrade doesn't charge any fees as such. They just quote an exchange rate a little off of market rates (obviously you can't get exact market rates for any arbitrary trade) that are always a little in their favour. It's just how exchanges work. BUT xetrade gives me a MUCH better deal than either paypal or my bank. The only problem is it takes about 5-7 business days to transfer through xetrade.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Well, I dug up something else:

Quote:

*What happens if there aren't enough funds in my bank account?*
If the bank returns a response to us that there aren't enough funds in the account, the system will wait a few days and then re-attempt the request**. This is an automatic process that cannot be interrupted. If the second attempt fails, the backup funding source will be charged. It is not possible to switch to the backup funding source after you've clicked to perform the transaction. It's important to review your funding selection to ensure that the one you want to use is chosen. While PayPal never charges Insufficient Funds fees, your bank may potentially charge a fee for each attempt.

That explains why my card hasn't been charged yet. The best I can hope is that since PayPal didn't offer me the choice about currency conversion, they will ultimately charge the card in yen. If they don't, I will contest it with the Financial Ombudsman Service.

By the way, aside from the obvious designed-to-scam behaviour of their system, PayPal did actually make a mistake. I called them during the day after the night when the bad transaction happened. I explained that the money hadn't yet been taken and I wanted it taken in yen from my card, and they said they would effectively remove the direct debit instruction and cause it to revert to the card. They didn't seem to understand the part about yen, and generally said some things that made me think they didn't really know what they were doing, but nevertheless, what they said they would do, they didn't do. I then called them a day later to follow up, and they said I should have called sooner (?!). I think this gives me at least a little bit of ammunition.

For the record, my card offers me 0% markup on the Visa exchange rate, and no flat-rate charge either, for foreign transactions. You can see why I want to use it.

[EDIT]
In other news, we got through the concert with the Prokofiev without anything too terrible going wrong, and I spent most of yesterday completely incapacitated by it :)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

Paypal associates funding sources in a specific currency IIRC. When I get charged in USD, they convert using their excessive conversion rates and fees, then my accounts get charged in CAD.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

jmasterx
Member #11,410
October 2009

Can't ML just do:

$lockTimeout = 30;//5;

>:(

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Well, they've now charged my card, and still in pounds. I've complained to the financial ombudsman service about both them and AirBNB. My argument is that PayPal should be required to ask about the funding source (and then the currency if it's a card) when the transaction is done, and AirBNB should be required to accept payments in local currency (which I think are already the Visa regulations), and that both companies should be fined for the money they've made so far through these ruses :P Can't hurt to try, can it? These companies incur enough hate for these practices - it's clearly not just me.

As for me, well, it's a good solid £30, but it's a one-off. Worse things have happened, like the time I was overpaying for my phone contract for months, maybe years ;)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

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