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Wow, go allegro:) |
Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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jmasterx said: So you're saying if I'm too lazy to make sure my résumé has no spelling or grammatical errors I should still be hired? If someone has an incredible résumé with a few typos, I'm not gonna sweat it. If someone has a mediocre résumé with impeccable grammar and spelling, it's a less valuable employee. -- |
jmasterx
Member #11,410
October 2009
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What if it is a student fresh out of University seeking their first job. In that case, I think even a student with an above 90 average in their courses would not be considered due to imperfect spelling and grammar. Eventually seniority and experience outweigh it, but certainly when one's CV is nothing more than a diploma and a few odd jobs, proper spelling and grammar will make the difference. In today's world, with the internet as public as it is, there are more advantages to proper grammar. No one will bash you for proper grammar. In addition, if an employer Googles your name and finds grammatical and spelling errors all over the forums or social networks you belong to on the internet, it may affect their opinion of you. Agui GUI API -> https://github.com/jmasterx/Agui |
23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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jmasterx said: Every presentation I have ever sat in about IT careers where there was advice on getting a job, the presenter made it clear that one of the criteria for tossing a CV was a misspelling. That would be pretty funny where I work now, because my boss is one of the worst spellers I've ever met. I had that hilariously embarrassing typo and went on to a semi-management position there with glowing employee evaluations; if a company is willing to turn down an employee with that kind of potential for accidentally saying your instead of you're or something, they're probably not competent enough to evaluate your actual value and not worth working for anyway. After the spelling test, do they do the Job Interview 2.0 riddles? Maybe a history quiz? -- |
Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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If I Google a potential employee and find they have an unhealthy and destructive fixation on proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation, then I would be concerned that that person would be 1) a disruption to the team and 2) not very good at working with other people. -- |
bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Mark Oates said: If you dismiss people's message because they choose to express themselves in a particular way, or because you think they're "sloppy" or "lazy," then you've caused a bigger problem. People usually don't say "u" and "4gt" and "k" for any good reason. Certainly not creativity. It's the complete opposite of creativity. It's conformity. It's "cool" right now. They don't even realize they're doing it most of the time. I had a colleague that would end EVERY GODDAMN FUCKING MESSAGE with l-o-l (without the hyphens). Shit that wasn't even remotely humorous. Humor had absolutely nothing to do with it. Just serious, everyday, professional communication. Every statement would invariably end with l-o-l. It was effectively a full-stop/dot/period for her. It was distracting and unprofessional. Her lack of care showed up in her code too. The point is that it takes zero extra effort to use real words. You're already thinking of the word! You just have to type it properly. A programmer should be especially skilled at typing so it should be negligible to do with a full keyboard. Using those kinds of lazy single-letters-that-sound-like-words spellings is very immature in normal communication. It's acceptable where typing is tedious (e.g., using a cell phone's numeric pad), or where your time or bandwidth are severely limited (e.g., during an online game or 1972), or where you're explicitly trying to be clever or obscure (private messaging with a friend). It's not appropriate everywhere, however. There's a time and place for it and A.cc is neither. As for correcting actual grammar and spelling mistakes, it is helpful to point out when somebody makes a mistake because they probably aren't aware that they're doing it[1] and it makes them look sloppy. It helps them to learn to communicate more accurately. Programmers should especially appreciate grammar. It's effectively synonymous with syntax. Grammar errors are effectively syntax errors. Spelling errors are effectively logic errors. I appreciate when people point out mistakes that I've made and do my best to fix them. I have learned a few grammar and spelling rules from corrections here that were still ambiguous to me after school (my English teachers were pretty poor, IMHO; though admittedly I also had little interest in social studies). A number of people whose first language isn't English have also expressed appreciation for the corrections on this site because it helps them to speak and write English more correctly. 23yrold3yrold said: Fun fact: the tech support job I had previous to my current job, I misspelled the name of the company on my cover letter/resume (I thought my buddy said Convergence; it was actually Convergys). Still hired. So, yeah. That's hardly a mistake if the name was spoken to you and not spelled for you. How could you possibly be expected to know (aside from researching the company yourself)? Now had the name actually been Convergence and you spelled it Convergys, do you still think they would have hired you? References
-- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
jmasterx
Member #11,410
October 2009
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Mark Oates said: If I Google a potential employee and find they have an unhealthy and destructive fixation on proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation, then I would be concerned that that person would be 1) a disruption to the team and 2) not very good at working with other people. Absolutely, and in the work place or school, I would never disrupt or mention improper grammar. However, if someone repeatedly makes the same error over and over in important documents such as documentation or reports, I will let them know kindly when no one else is around. I will also never refuse to help someone on a forum because of bad grammar. On a forum however, I will publicly point it out. Extremists are certainly undesired in an organization. It is about balance and trying your best. I live in a French province where almost everyone makes huge spelling and grammar errors each day. I should still do my best to make my work and writing as nice as I can, and I hope others do too. However, nagging someone about it, refusing to answer their question and the like is extreme and I personally would not do that. In terms of hiring, if someone has lots of experience and a few spelling mistakes, I would still hire them, but I would mention the mistakes and tell them to please be careful. I believe everyone is entitled to feel how they want about the topic, for example, as I mentioned in my first reply to this topic, it irritates me. It would be unethical of me to allow my subjective feelings toward it to affect my work or my likelihood to respond to a programming question. On the other hand, if someone seems to intentionally and carelessly write questions poorly, I will see it in the same way as a lack of effort to research that question in the first place. That is of course limited to the internet. In a professional environment, it would be unacceptable to refuse to do your job because of someone's grammar. Agui GUI API -> https://github.com/jmasterx/Agui |
23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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bamccaig said: That's hardly a mistake if the name was spoken to you and not spelled for you. How could you possibly be expected to know (aside from researching the company yourself)? And by that same logic, how are they expected to know that? Per the standards above, someone in HR could look at my letter, see I couldn't even be bothered to spell the company name right, and toss it. Screw qualifications, amirite? -- |
bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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23yrold3yrold said: And by that same logic, how are they expected to know that? Per the standards above, someone in HR could look at my letter, see I couldn't even be bothered to spell the company name right, and toss it. Screw qualifications, amirite? They probably see that misspelling regularly, both from candidates and business relations. They might originally discriminate against it, but eventually they'd probably realize that too many people are doing it for it to be an effective filter. Spelling and grammar are definitely important for many recruiters. When I was in college we had some HR people from the biggest companies in town come and speak to the class and they said that those kinds of mistakes could land you in the "no" pile before they even read anything about you. When you have thousands of applicants, you don't need to waste your time on people that aren't willing to take the time themselves. -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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bamccaig said: They probably see that misspelling regularly, both from candidates and business relations. Wait; what? That's a completely baseless assumption. And besides, it's still the same principle: Quote: When you have thousands of applicants, you don't need to waste your time on people that aren't willing to take the time themselves. I didn't take time to verify the company's freaking name. By the standards trumpeted in this thread, that seems pretty huge. I mean, how lazy am I, right? -- |
Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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When I was coming out of high school, I remember sending an email to the music director at a university, the professor who conducts the top wind ensemble and manages the music department (he knew me from an all state band that he had guest conducted.) I had decided to go to that college and wanted to let him know I chose his university. In a move of classical schmoozing, I was giving him a heads up that I was planning to audition for the top group. My email was impeccable and grammatically delicious. His reply was a paragraph and sounded like "great mark thanks for you're email im really looking forward to having you in our ensmble " True story. It was only later that I realized he enjoyed a less formal report with his students. It allowed him to be more ruthless in rehearsal. -- |
bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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23yrold3yrold said: I didn't take time to verify the company's freaking name. By the standards trumpeted in this thread, that seems pretty huge. I mean, how lazy am I, right? The only way that you could know the spelling is to actually see it in writing (i.e., a Web page, a brochure, or other document format), which is not necessarily a requirement. You could have easily called the company instead to research them, and unless you explicitly asked, "how do you spell that?", you could easily not realize the subtle difference. Some companies would discriminate based on that though. This particular one didn't. That's completely arbitrary. Append: It's also possible that the people that read your cover letter or resume didn't even notice. When you're "in the zone" it's possible to both make mistakes and miss mistakes. It's normal to make mistakes. It's sloppy to consistently make mistakes and not care about correcting them. It's immature to intentionally use incorrect spelling or grammar. That doesn't mean that there are no "teachers" or "bosses" that do. They are people too, and they come in all levels of carefulness and carelessness. -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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bamccaig said: It's sloppy to consistently make mistakes and not care about correcting them. It's immature to intentionally use incorrect spelling or grammar. I've used bad grammar intentionally in order to communicate more effectively. Here's another hypothetical
Who do you choose! -- |
Neil Walker
Member #210
April 2000
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Mark Oates said: Who do you choose I'd pick whichever was submitted by a girl Neil. wii:0356-1384-6687-2022, kart:3308-4806-6002. XBOX:chucklepie |
bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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First prove to me that 1 happens. I would rm -f 2's resume since I can't read it with Vim. -- acc.js | al4anim - Allegro 4 Animation library | Allegro 5 VS/NuGet Guide | Allegro.cc Mockup | Allegro.cc <code> Tag | Allegro 4 Timer Example (w/ Semaphores) | Allegro 5 "Winpkg" (MSVC readme) | Bambot | Blog | C++ STL Container Flowchart | Castopulence Software | Check Return Values | Derail? | Is This A Discussion? Flow Chart | Filesystem Hierarchy Standard | Clean Code Talks - Global State and Singletons | How To Use Header Files | GNU/Linux (Debian, Fedora, Gentoo) | rot (rot13, rot47, rotN) | Streaming |
AMCerasoli
Member #11,955
May 2010
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none...
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Neil Walker
Member #210
April 2000
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Quote: Have you found a grammatical error in my post? if you have the time, please help me to improve it. Thanks!. Quote: Thanks!. There you go. Neil. wii:0356-1384-6687-2022, kart:3308-4806-6002. XBOX:chucklepie |
jmasterx
Member #11,410
October 2009
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Candidate 1 writes the html and CSS, candidate 2 writes documentation and web content and they are both hired! If someone in their day to day activities is completely abstracted from any tasks requiring proper grammar or spelling, it is much better to hire them and never give them a written task than to disregard them (If they really are talented). If your company camelCases and TheyDoNot, now we have a problem though. Agui GUI API -> https://github.com/jmasterx/Agui |
Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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The biggest offense of these whole debacles is that good people with good ideas are harassed based on hardline values of a less-relevant metric. Good grammar is a nice attribute, but good ideas are much more important. -- |
Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001
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bamccaig said: People usually don't say "u" and "4gt" and "k" for any good reason. I don't even know what "k" means. And please, read some newspaper. They are produced in a very fast tempo. Nevertheless you don't see any deliberately bad grammar, leet speak, lolspeak whatsoever there. a.cc Off-Topic Ordeals has 416,203 posts, Programming Questions has 239,478 posts. It's a very valuable archive, I use it very often. Only today I read a thread from 2005, which helped me a lot with one problem. When I browse in the old posts, it feels very annoying to stumble on posts written poorly just because the writer wrote with this chat/IRC/SMS gear on. As many others have said, there's no excuse for deliberately bad writing on a.cc. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest. |
Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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Johan Halmén said: Nevertheless you don't see any deliberately bad grammar, leet speak, lolspeak whatsoever there. Mneyeeea, that's not really a good comparison; they're professional writers, they work for a publication, and they go through an editor. On the other hand, I do wish people wouldn't use leet, chat, irc, lolspeak when talking to me. I also wish girls would only be giggling and wearing panties when talking to me. If I can get the latter but not the former, boy do I love lolspeak!! Content prevails!! -- |
l j
Member #10,584
January 2009
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If you get the latter, you must manage to get girls talking to you. That's way too hard, I'd pick the former one myself .
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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Apparently Marc Oats thinks pointing out new and exciting grammar mistakes is a bad thing, but persistently saying the same ideas over and over again in an endless, beat-the-dead-horse cycle is a good thing. |
Trent Gamblin
Member #261
April 2000
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One girl once said there was a one in a million chance she'd ever talked to me again. So she's saying there's a chance! Number two, please.
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Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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Matthew Leverton said: new and exciting grammar mistakes
-- |
AMCerasoli
Member #11,955
May 2010
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Mark Oates said: Good grammar is a nice attribute, but good ideas are much more important. A good idea with bad grammar isn't a nice attribute... So I would prefer nice grammar with no good idea that way would be a nice attribute.
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