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Uh-Oh, here comes a God vs Science thread
SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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Neil Roy said:

So some of you may wish to rethink things carefully before you reject the possibility of a God, it's a dangerous corner to back yourself into.

On the contrary, believing in God might be just as dangerous if for some reason it's the other God that actually exists: http://www.allegro.cc/forums/thread/606868/910636#target

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I like that argument. That one where people claim that only those who believe in Jesus, and God make it into heaven. Even sinners. So long as you repent and believe, you get in. Now, if you've been a perfect citizen, but don't believe, you don't get in. Its a riot.

Neil Roy said:

This also explains the seeming contradiction where you read no man has talked to God, then you read about Moses talking to him. No man has talked to God the father.

That's a clever argument. Wonder how long it took them to come up with that one.

Fancy explanations like that shouldn't be necessary if a singular GOD wrote the Bible.

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Striker
Member #10,701
February 2009
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One thing Christians should understand: God is not their property. The christian church is an organization of people, made after their limited understanding, nothing more.

In other times and other countries there are other religions, and some of them are quite advanced over the christian. In the example before with the star of bethlehem, there were mentioned three kings from orient which obviously had advanced knowledge about astrology, because they came all the way to Jesus birthplace. They knew what happens only because of that star! Christians are far from having such a knowledge.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

I like that argument. That one where people claim that only those who believe in Jesus, and God make it into heaven. Even sinners. So long as you repent and believe, you get in. Now, if you've been a perfect citizen, but don't believe, you don't get in. Its a riot.

Actually the bible does state that people that never really had a chance to know about God or learn about Him, will be given a chance when he returns. It's not a second chance, but a first one.

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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Neil Roy said:

Actually the bible does state that people that never really had a chance to know about God or learn about Him, will be given a chance when he returns. It's not a second chance, but a first one.

So someone who has lived and died before he returns, is SOL?

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NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

Fancy explanations like that shouldn't be necessary if a singular GOD wrote the Bible.

But God = "Elohim" which is more than one. Read Genesis where it states " we made man in our image" for example.

So someone who has lived and died before he returns, is SOL?

Not at all, there is a coming resurrection where they will be resurrected and given a chance to learn from Christ Himself.

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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Neil Roy said:

But God = "Elohim" which is more than one. Read Genesis where it states " we made man in our image" for example.

I thought the main religions were monotheist? aka: One God. Now you're telling me there's more than one God? Is one of their nick-names Zeus?

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Not at all, there is a coming resurrection where they will be resurrected and given a chance to learn from Christ Himself.

Wow. Is there enough room on earth for that?

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

decepto
Member #7,102
April 2006
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Wow. Is there enough room on earth for that?

One word: Magic.

--------------------------------------------------
Boom!

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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SiegeLord said:

People make nice predictions about the future that come true all the time.

So it's just dumb luck that they pierced Christ's hands and feet and that the soldiers gambled for His clothing - exactly as Psalm 22 said would happen. Not only did one prediction come true, but two at the same time.

I am a Christian myself, and for me Christianity is the hope that my interpretation of God and the Bible has some truth in it, however slim that hope may be.

If you don't believe the Bible is the truth, then how can you call yourself a Christian to begin with? It's absurd.

James Lohr said:

Since you're obviously very fond of taking the Bible literally, how about this one?

Matthew 17:20 said:

I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.

You clearly can't move mountains, so I claim that you have no faith, only delusion, and that you are in no position to argue that the Bible is the absolute word of God. You may argue that you hope that it is the absolute word of God, and your reasons for this hope - this is fine, but any more than this makes you look both silly and hypocritical.

Maybe if I had enough faith, I could move mountains, I don't know. The point Jesus was making was that his disciples couldn't cast the demon out because they didn't believe that they could. It means that without faith, you are powerless. If you don't believe you can do something, then you'll never bother trying to do it, because it seems pointless to begin with, and so you automatically fail. Sometimes Jesus spoke in parables, was he using one there? I'm not sure. Would humans have been able to invent flight without faith? Or have gone into space without faith that they could? Most likely not.

If you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God, then why do you bother reading it? For a good story?

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

There is God the father, and his son, the Word. In John (I said 1 John, I was wrong, it's in the first book of John, not "1 John") you read:
1) "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
2) "The same was in the beginning with God."
3) "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

...

10) "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not."

and it goes on, but this shows that the one we know as Jesus, was known as "The Word" before he became flesh. He's the one that done all the creating, that talked to Moses. You can read in Genesis that there are more than one as I said. But there you have the names you wanted, God the Father, and his son the Word, now known as "Jesus Christ".

Wow. Is there enough room on earth for that?

Actually, I once heard of a study some man took and they figured out that everyone that has ever existed given a certain amount of land, could fit into San Francisco Harbour. I was surprised at this, and I would have to look it up to find it again, but... it's a big earth, the vast majority of it is uninhabited.

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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I think maybe you're just misinterpreting.

Neil Roy said:

and the Word was God

I think maybe that just means that if Jesus is "The Word", he is also "God". Not that theres two separate entities. Otherwise you get stuck not being a monotheistic religion, but that clearly hasn't been the view for a very long time.

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Think of it like this - there's one God, who appears in 3 different ways - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit - all are God, but they manifest in different ways.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

I don't know about other people's view, and I don't wish to debate other people's beliefs, I'm just stating what I read and what I understand it to mean to me anyhow. Other opinions may vary. ;)

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Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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What can I say? It was an improvement on his.

Improvement? Hardly. But fair enough to point out that what you responded to was a generalisation as well. Doesn't make your argument stronger to counter a generalisation with another even more sweeping one though.

God does exist, He wrote the Bible, and if He wanted to He could certainly provide evidence of that. But why should he repeat himself to everyone over and over when His Word is already collected in the Bible?

That logic is circular and therefore invalid.
If you don't want or need logic, that doesn't matter to you. If you do, it does.

Quote:

You are the one making the claim it is false, so the burden of proof is on you.

Wrong.
I can claim there are leprechauns living beneath the kitchen sink. That does not make it so unless someone proves it to be false. The burden of proof is on me for making that claim.

Quote:

The Bible proves itself to be true more and more every time I read it, and don't think that I accept it as true as some sort of axiom, because I don't.

Good for you. Now, don't fall into the trap of thinking that just because you think it's true doesn't mean that anyone else who reads it must inevitably come to the same conclusion as you do.

Explain how David prophecied the manner of Christ's crucifixion in Psalm 22, which Jesus quoted on the cross as a reminder. David wrote Psalm 22 hundreds of years before Christ was even born. I'll tell you how - divine inspiration through the Holy Spirit of God, that's how.

When Julius Caesar was stabbed to death, he recognised one of the assasins as his friend and ally, Maruc Iunius Brutus. Dismayed, he called out "you too, my son?"
Or did he?
I'll give you another explanation: the account of Jesus' life was doctored so that it would fit the existing prophesies.

Neil Roy said:

like the Roman historian Josephus who wrote about Christ, even though he didn't like Christians, which is even better evidence than hearing from someone that actually liked him.

Josephus was a Jew, not a Roman.
What exactly Josephus wrote is apparently disputed, with the text possibly having undergone some editing by later (Christian) scribes. Either way - Josephus does not seem to say much other than indicate that there was a historical figure called Jesus, who was regarded by some as the Messiah. You cannot infer very much from that.

Quote:

Also archaeological evidence backs up the bible.

The truth of that statement very much depends on what you mean by "backs up".
There is no doubt that the Bible represents the oral traditions of the Jewish people, which include both their mythology and history. Some of it must very clearly recall historical events, but as with the account of the Trojan War in the Illias and the Odyssee, these are likely to have been distorted or enhanced in the telling and it's hard to tell historical fact from plain mythology (I won't say "fiction", because that's not the same thing).

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

Evert said:

Josephus was a Jew, not a Roman.

You do realize that "Roman" isn't a race right? There were all sorts of races in the Roman empire, and some became Roman citizens, Josephus was a Roman General as well as a historian, he was also a Jew, yes. One of Christ's apostles was also a Roman citizen, I can't recall off hand who though.

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Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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Neil Roy said:

One of Christ's apostles was also a Roman citizen, I can't recall off hand who though.

Paul.

Evert said:

Either way - Josephus does not seem to say much other than indicate that there was a historical figure called Jesus, who was regarded by some as the Messiah.

Yeah, that's pretty much all he says. Which is great, because it helps me identify people who are just talking out of their butts about "proof" of the Bible. People who go on about how much Josephus supports the New Testament and Jesus clearly don't know what they're talking about.

james_lohr
Member #1,947
February 2002

Neil Roy said:

Actually, I once heard of a study some man took and they figured out that everyone that has ever existed given a certain amount of land, could fit into San Francisco Harbour. I was surprised at this, and I would have to look it up to find it again, but... it's a big earth, the vast majority of it is uninhabited.

You don't need to look it up, it's a trivial calculation. As is this one I just did: if liquidized, everyone on Earth could fit into a single 1km cubed vat.

Personally I think it says more about the degrees of a polynomial (n^2, n^3) than anything to do with the Earth's size.

If you don't believe the Bible is the truth, then how can you call yourself a Christian to begin with? It's absurd.

Have you read what the bible says you actually need to do to be considered a Christian? ;)

Quote:

The point Jesus was making was that his disciples couldn't cast the demon out because they didn't believe that they could.

No, this is your interpretation of what is written in the Bible. Was Jesus referring to a mustard seed, the smallest of all seeds, and therefore implying that no one has any faith? Or perhaps his meaning was derived from the fact that mustard seeds grow into the largest of all herbs, and therefore means a thriving faith? Does he literally mean to move mountains, or does he simply mean great deeds?

Every part of the bible is open to many different interpretations. Even its claims to be the word of God are open to interpretation. You are taking something totally arbitrary - your interpretation of the bible - and claiming that it is the word of God. This, quite frankly, is a display of arrogance and ignorance that serves only to push many intelligent people away from Christianity.

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Neil Roy said:

You do realize that "Roman" isn't a race right?

No, it's a citizenship - and not everyone who lived in the Roman Empire was a Roman citizen.
Josephus apparently became a Roman citizen later, but he was most certainly, first and foremost, a Jew.

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Josephus was a Roman General as well as a historian,

Josephus was not a Roman general. He fought against the Romans, and later, after being captured and released, became a historian.

Quote:

One of Christ's apostles was also a Roman citizen,

So?

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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You don't need to look it up, it's a trivial calculation. As is this one I just did: if liquidized, everyone on Earth could fit into a single 1km cubed vat.

Now how much land would it take up if everyone who ever lived was resurrected, if say they were all standing up?

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"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Now how much land would it take up if everyone who ever lived was resurrected, if say they were all standing up?

Probably about double at this point.
I don't remember whether we're already at the point where the number of people alive today is the same as (or larger than) the number of people who have ever lived, but it's close.

james_lohr
Member #1,947
February 2002

Now how much land would it take up if everyone who ever lived was resurrected, if say they were all standing up?

Well, off the top of my head I'd guess that the land area (footprint) of the cuboid vat large enough to contain every human that ever lived in liquidized form would be no more than 1.5km square. That's assuming that the total number of people ever to live is smaller than 4 times the current number of people alive which, given exponential growth, is likely to be generous if anything.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Evert said:

I can claim there are leprechauns living beneath the kitchen sink. That does not make it so unless someone proves it to be false. The burden of proof is on me for making that claim.

I can claim it's false however, and then go look under your kitchen sink and see that there are none there. So by the same token you can claim the Bible wasn't written by God, go to the Bible, and prove me wrong then.

Evert said:

I'll give you another explanation: the account of Jesus' life was doctored so that it would fit the existing prophesies.

And where's your proof of that? What would be the motivation? Sounds like a lot of work for very little gain to me.

You want more proof of the truth of the Bible? Ever heard of B.C. and A.D.? - Before Christ, and Anno Domini (year of our Lord).

Have you read what the bible says you actually need to do to be considered a Christian?

Enlighten me.

James Lohr said:

Even its claims to be the word of God are open to interpretation.

Provide an example.

James Lohr said:

You are taking something totally arbitrary - your interpretation of the bible - and claiming that it is the word of God.

No, actually I haven't done that. My claim is that the Bible is the Word of God, and if you dispute that, don't bother calling yourself a Christian (Christ man).

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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So it's just dumb luck that they pierced Christ's hands and feet and that the soldiers gambled for His clothing - exactly as Psalm 22 said would happen. Not only did one prediction come true, but two at the same time.

The piercing of the hands and feet is referenced by Christians as being a prophecy about Jesus’ crucifixion, where his hands and feet were pierced by nails. However, contrasting the two verses in the JPS and KJV give radically different results – the former states that the Psalmist’s hands and feet are mauled by dogs or lions. The latter states that the assembly of the wicked has pierced the Psalmist’s hands and feet. This is a translation issue, specifically over the word ari, or lion.

In Hebrew, the verse reads karah ari yad regal. Literally, mauled lion hands feet.

Evert said:

I don't remember whether we're already at the point where the number of people alive today is the same as (or larger than) the number of people who have ever lived, but it's close.

According to wikipedia, the total number of humans that ever lived is over 100 billion.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
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NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

Evert said:

Josephus was not a Roman general. He fought against the Romans, and later, after being captured and released, became a historian.

I guess the History channel is wrong then. I'll tell them to give you a phone call.

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Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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So by the same token you can claim the Bible wasn't written by God, go to the Bible, and prove me wrong then.

Ok then. God didn't write the Bible because he didn't exist.
Proof otherwise.

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And where's your proof of that?

Did I say there was? I offer it as an alternative explanation. You say the inescapable conclusion from the match of the prophecy is that the prophecy is true. This is clearly false, since there is an alternative explanation.

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What would be the motivation?

Surely you can work that one out for yourself?
I'll give you a hint: it has something to do with attracting followers.

Quote:

Sounds like a lot of work for very little gain to me.

I wouldn't say that. The church is fairly wealthy and influential, you know. Even more so in the past.

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You want more proof of the truth of the Bible?

"More"?
Either way, not really.

Quote:

Ever heard of B.C. and A.D.? - Before Christ, and Anno Domini (year of our Lord).

Discounting the fact that those terms stem from around the beginning of the Middle Ages and that they seem to have got the year of Jesus' birth wrong by a few years (which is actually impressively close), what's that supposed to show?
Muslims count years from the year in which Mohammed came to Medina, the Romans counted years ab urbe condita (but more commonly by referring to the names of the consuls) and the Hebrew calandar supposedly counts years since the creation of the Earth. In the tradional Chinese calendar the years (if they are counted at all) are counted from the time their calendar was established, some 4000 years ago.
Clearly people count the dates from some time that they deem significant to their culture. To the people who introduced the terms "BC" and "AD", that point in time was the birth of Jezus, which makes sense given the importance of Christianity at the time. But again, that proofs nothing.

EDIT

SiegeLord said:

According to wikipedia [en.wikipedia.org], the total number of humans that ever lived is over 100 billion.

Ok. Much larger than I'd have expected, but I guess it matters (a lot) when you start counting. The figure I quoted may be an estimate for the number of people who lived in historic times, which is obviously much smaller than the total number of people who have ever lived.

Neil Roy said:

I guess the History channel is wrong then. I'll tell them to give you a phone call.

Nah, just give them a link to Wikipedia.



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