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Uh-Oh, here comes a God vs Science thread
J-Gamer
Member #12,491
January 2011
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My weirdest experience with a déjà vu yet:
Seemed to have dreamt a situation the night before, and in the dream I had a feeling of déjà vu. So it was a double one ^^

" There are plenty of wonderful ideas in The Bible, but God isn't one of them." - Derezo
"If your body was a business, thought would be like micro-management and emotions would be like macro-management. If you primarily live your life with emotions, then you are prone to error on the details. If you over-think things all the time you tend to lose scope of priorities." - Mark Oates

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

603852

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“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Arguing with axilmar over religion has got to be the most useless thing ever. ;D

But it will be enjoyable to see him certifiably debunk a 2000 year old religion with a sentence or two. I expect the headline tomorrow to be, "Man on Internet proves Christianity is OBVIOUSLY false."

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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I expect the headline tomorrow to be, "Man on Internet proves Christianity is OBVIOUSLY false."

Wait, didn't he do that at some point? I remember someone starting a thread like that a long time ago. Science falsifying some strawman and saying they'd disproved religion and anyone who didn't agree was dumb. Might have been someone else but it was funny.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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Wait, didn't he do that at some point? I remember someone starting a thread like that a long time ago. Science falsifying some strawman and saying they'd disproved religion and anyone who didn't agree was dumb. Might have been someone else but it was funny.

No, no. You're thinking of a book by Dawkins. :P

Onewing
Member #6,152
August 2005
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I can't keep up with this thread, but it is interesting trying to grasp and understand each person's view.

Personally, and I've stated it before, I believe our existence has purpose and isn't just a result of a series of causes and effects (which may either be out of fear of eventual non-existence or me being biased from my upbringings). From that, I believe there is a higher power. Beyond that, I just hope for some form of guidance to know what is right and wrong.

By the way, what is this called? I don't think it's traditional Christianity, even though I lean more towards the Bible than any other religious texts.

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Solo-Games.org | My Tech Blog: The Digital Helm

Karadoc ~~
Member #2,749
September 2002
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From my point of view, Christianity is obviously false. I was convinced a long time ago, and throughout the course of my life I've heard many many very convincing arguments that further that conviction. Unfortunately, the non-existence of God isn't really provable. The closest we can do is present more plausible explanations for things, and try to shrink the living space of the God of the gaps.

But I understand that the foundations for my way of thinking are not the same as the foundations used by everyone. The same arguments that I've found to be absolutely convincing just can't seem to find stable ground in the minds of thoroughly religious people, even people who seem smart and logical. So I can only assume that we must have different axioms or something. I've pretty much given up on hope of convincing strong-minded Christians to give up their beliefs, but I'm still interested in finding out the root of our disagreement.

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Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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Well, one difference is that not all believers have a God of the gaps mentality. With me, for example, you can go ahead and fill in every gap in modern science, and it won't shake my faith.

I've always disliked the God of the gaps arguments some Christians use. If we don't know what's behind a certain "gap" in our knowledge, then how can we know that God is behind it? It's silly to just assume the answer is God when we don't know the answer.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

I've always disliked the God of the gaps arguments some Christians use. If we don't know what's behind a certain "gap" in our knowledge, then how can we know that God is behind it? It's silly to just assume the answer is God when we don't know the answer.

I agree. I believe God has a lot of laws he set down, not just spiritual but physical laws like gravity, various laws science has discovered etc. There is no reason why one can't enjoy the scientific method and believe in God at the same time. Just as many churches are wrong about some aspects of God and His laws, so is science wrong about some things.

Just because we don't understand how God does something in nature, doesn't mean we can't discover it. Discovering how things happen doesn't, in my mind, prove there is no God, but simply shows more knowledge about his physical laws and how he does it.

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“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

blargmob
Member #8,356
February 2007
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Neil Roy said:

There is no reason why one can't enjoy the scientific method and believe in God at the same time.

There are plenty of reasons.

For example, creationism being completely falsifiable via the scientific method.

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"No amount of prayer would have produced the computers you use to spread your nonsense." Arthur Kalliokoski

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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For example, creationism being completely falsifiable via the scientific method.

This just in: all Christians believe in the formal theory of creationism! It's proven by science!

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

For example, creationism being completely falsifiable via the scientific method.

In your opinion.

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“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

blargmob
Member #8,356
February 2007
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This just in: all Christians believe in the formal theory of creationism! It's proven by science!

Neil didn't say anything about Christianity..neither did I. Please lrn2read.

EDIT:

Neil Roy said:

In your opinion.

Oh really? So those 40 million year old fossils dated using Carbon Dating are actually only 12 thousand years old?

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"No amount of prayer would have produced the computers you use to spread your nonsense." Arthur Kalliokoski

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Neil didn't say anything about Christianity..neither did I. Please lrn2read.

We're talking about a different creationism then? Fine; all theists.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

blargmob
Member #8,356
February 2007
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Neil, this is for you since you don't seem to grasp the fact that Creationism is falsifiable indefinitely in almost every single aspect:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating

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"No amount of prayer would have produced the computers you use to spread your nonsense." Arthur Kalliokoski

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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So those 40 million year old fossils dated using Carbon Dating

Sorry, carbon dating doesn't work for objects that are 40 million years old, the half-life of 14C is far too short for that.
You can use other isotopes and the same idea though, maybe that's what you meant?

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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What he meant is whatever currently supports his beliefs. Whatever that is ... is what he meant. ;)

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

blargmob
Member #8,356
February 2007
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Evert said:

You can use other isotopes and the same idea though, maybe that's what you meant?

PPPFFFFFFFFF

Yeah. We always end up using the term "carbon dating" to encompass all isotope decay techniques of "natural clocks" in our physics class.

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"No amount of prayer would have produced the computers you use to spread your nonsense." Arthur Kalliokoski

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

Oh really? So those 40 million year old fossils dated using Carbon Dating are actually only 12 thousand years old?

There's nothing in the bible that says the universe can't be 40 million years old.

You would have to have studied the bible like I have to know that though. IN Genesis it states:

1:1) In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Doesn't say when that was, could have been a billion years ago, could have been less... doesn't say.

1:2) Now the earth was formless and empty darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

In the margin of my bible it has a note regarding the word "formless" that says "or possible became". Because the original hebrew has that meaning "became formless and empty". Notice the earth and the waters existed already, and they became formless, you don't become formless unless at one point you were not formless and void. So there is evidence that there was an earth that existed in another state.

Satan used to be in charge of the earth before he rebelled against God, this rebellion happened before we were created, so the Earth obviously existed, was he responsible for what happened to the Dinosaurs? We have no way of knowing for certain what happened back then.

There could have been several reasons there was no light on the earth, a cloud covering the earth preventing light and killing off the dinosaurs has been postulated by science. Were they killed off in the great war between God and Satan? That's what I think happened. But I will admit that is my opinion. I think there is plenty of evidence to back up that the earth has obviously been around for a very long time. But that doesn't contradict the bible one bit.

Edit:

What he meant is whatever currently supports his beliefs. Whatever that is ... is what he meant. ;)

You're absolutely right, but I would think that is obvious. To us anyhow. ;)

Yeah. We always end up using the term "carbon dating" to encompass all isotope decay techniques of "natural clocks" in our physics class.

I don't know of a method that can date back that far. Carbon dating is very limited. Fossils are usually dated based on the layer they are found on, and that is based on theories of sediment deposits which is questionable. But as I said, there's no reason to believe the earth came into existence 6000 years ago, the bible doesn't say that at all.

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“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

blargmob
Member #8,356
February 2007
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Neil Roy said:

There's nothing in the bible that says the universe can't be 40 million years old.

IIRC, "Adam" lived about 6000 years ago. "Adam" was created on the 6th day of "God's" creation spree; so it follows that the Earth must also be 6000 years old.

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"No amount of prayer would have produced the computers you use to spread your nonsense." Arthur Kalliokoski

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

IIRC, "Adam" lived about 6000 years ago. "Adam" was created on the 6th day of "God's" creation spree; so it follows that the Earth must also be 6000 years old.

Yup, you're right, he was. The earth was already here though.

Edit: that is, the earth as we know it now was re-created at the same time, but the bible clearly states, in the first two verses as I quoted that it was without form and void, or more accurately, became without form and void, which would be a more accurate translation of the original Hebrew. Nothing at all in there about the earth being created and other evidence it was around long before as Satan was given rule over the earth before we were created, he was ruling over it when he rebelled against God, can't rule over something that didn't exist, now can we? (and i bet a lot of people never really thought about that aspect)

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“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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Neil, this is for you since you don't seem to grasp the fact that Creationism is falsifiable indefinitely in almost every single aspect:

I like how you follow this statement up by showing evidence that falsifies one aspect of one form of creationism... and it's not even a form of creationism anyone here has professed. I've never claimed or believed that the Earth is anything other than a few billion years old, and I don't think that the Bible necessarily does either.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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I like how you follow this statement up by showing evidence that falsifies [i]one[/i] aspect of [i]one[/i] form of creationism... and it's not even a form of creationism anyone here has professed.

Quiet; I want to see more strawmen.

/popcorn

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

blargmob
Member #8,356
February 2007
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I like how you follow this statement up by showing evidence that falsifies one aspect of one form of creationism... and it's not even a form of creationism anyone here has professed.

1. Wrong Neil, Neil.

2. I'm not about to invest a ton of time gathering evidence for you that completely falsifies creationism. If you're so curious, go do the research yourself.

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"No amount of prayer would have produced the computers you use to spread your nonsense." Arthur Kalliokoski

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

1. Wrong Neil, Neil.

Well, you got me, I can't argue against that. <converts to atheism> ;D

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“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein



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