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Uh-Oh, here comes a God vs Science thread
Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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Vanneto said:

But you are right and they are wrong. I get it.

I see where you're coming from, with so many religions all saying they are true but with conflicting ideas, not all of them can be true at the same time. I get it, you're skeptical, but read the Bible for yourself, and then tell me it's not true.

type568 said:

Bad my memory is, and wiki is useless here. Which one is that?

Psalm 22?

Striker said:

So, if in the most important point of the most important christian story astrology has such an important role, how can it be christians don't believe in astrology?

Well, I can't really answer that, except that most people have simply outgrown superstitions like astrology. The best answer I can give you from the Bible is here :

Genesis 1:14 said:

And God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons and for days, and years:

Mostly, they are just for a way to tell time.

Edit

If it's not scientific, then it is not ultimately evidence. If you want to argue on the same playing field, commit to basic logic, and make your way from there.

Unfortunately, until Christ returns, there's really not ever going to be any scientific evidence that will directly support the Bible. No one who wrote it is still alive to give modern day testimony to it's truth and archaeological evidence is slim to none. If you're not willing to even take a chance that the Bible is true, then there's really no point discussing it with you. So until you read the Bible and provide proof that what it says is false, I see little reason to continue discussing it with you.

Edit 2
I guess there's one last thing I could mention. One of Jesus's disciples Thomas wouldn't believe that Christ had resurrected from the dead unless he saw Jesus in person with the nail marks in His hand and the spear mark in His side.

John 20:27-29 said:

27 Then saith He to Thomas, "Reach hither thy finger and behold My hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into My side: and be not faithless, but believing."
28 And Thomas answered and said unto Him, "My Lord and my God."
29 Jesus saith unto him, "Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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Quote:

Psalm 22?

I found it in wiki, but it didn't give me any clue. I felt like worst wiki article ever.

Pretty sad you didn't get anything regarding the rest of my post.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Wow, that was a big spurt of activity.

I do think that this is a lot more subjective that the clean little nutshell everyone tries to pack it into. I was an atheist for much longer than not, and I believed in Evolution much longer than not. I ultimately ended up changing my mind on both counts. See? Atheists can learn. ;) /sarcastic troll

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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If you're not willing to even take a chance that the Bible is true, then there's really no point discussing it with you.

Oh, I am willing to take a chance. A infinitesimally small chance.

Quote:

So until you read the Bible and provide proof that what it says is false, I see little reason to continue discussing it with you.

There is no need to prove something false to not believe in it (from a scientist's point of view, refer to a post of mine from a few pages ago). There is an infinite number of scientific theories that explain the world, yet only a few are seriously entertained. We already have a whole array of scientific theories to explain everything (with the minor exception of the Big Bang, perhaps) in non-supernatural terms. The God hypothesis is unnecessary, and is therefore unlikely.

Again, let me reiterate that it is impossible to prove things 100% in the real world, but it is possible to assign probabilities to various hypotheses. The God hypothesis, when placed on an equal ground with all other hypotheses is simply untenable.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

If you're atheist, ignore this post.

Not trying to get in on this discussion again, but I wish to give some advice to fellow Christians.

The bible gives some good advice when it comes to arguing/discussing your beliefs.

My favourite verse that seems to apply here is:

"Do not give to dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." - Mathew 7:6

This is very true as I have found out.

Also, there are verses in the bible that indicate that unless God opens someone's mind so that they can understand the truth, nothing you can say to them will convince them and it is pointless. God has to open your mind so you understand, it's a rare thing and only a few have God actually chosen and opened their minds so that they can grasp the truth.

All you'll get out of them if their minds haven't been opened (closed minded) is jokes, mocking, endless arguments and as Mathew 7:6 states, it will "tear you to pieces" spiritually.

It's difficult not to respond and their comments are usually crafted to appeal to your ego or otherwise egg you on, after all, if you don't reply to them, you have as good as admitted defeat and that must mean they were just too smart for you etc... etc... I have heard it all before.

Just be careful.

---
“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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decepto
Member #7,102
April 2006
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So until you read the Bible and provide proof that what it says is false...

The burden of proof always lies with the party making a claim.

--------------------------------------------------
Boom!

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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It also helps that its just a book, written by man. Now maybe if god came and gave me a book he wrote, that would be something. As it is we have a nice collection of morality tales to read.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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Unfortunately, until Christ returns, there's really not ever going to be any scientific evidence that will directly support the Bible.

Oh, but the Bible does exist. No doubt in that - I can walk into the next best bookstore and verify it today (or rather, tomorrow, because today being Sunday, it's probably going to be closed). The thing I'm having doubts about are your claims that it is the word of God, and that everything in it is true. From where I stand, there's a much simpler explanation, namely that people made it up and wrote it down. I can easily verify that people make things up all the time, and I can just as easily verify that it is indeed possible to write them down, regardless of whether they are true or not.
Now if there were other sources, independent from the Bible, and from somewhat reliable and verified authors, to support its stories, then we could dive into a history discussion to carve out what actually happened.

Quote:

No one who wrote it is still alive to give modern day testimony to it's truth and archaeological evidence is slim to none.

Now you're contradicting yourself. If God exists, and He wrote the Bible, then He'd be able to provide evidence whenever He wanted to.

If, however, you're talking about the persons who physically wrote down the first versions of the various books; well, for some of them (especially the Evangelists), there is more or less substantial material to attribute the texts, at least some of them; we can certainly find a rough time frame for each of them. One thing that is particularly interesting is that none of the Evangelists could possibly have known Jesus themselves; they wrote their texts at least a hundred years after his death. It is also quite possible that the authors knew each others' works, which means the fact that there are parallels between them is hardly surprising.

Quote:

If you're not willing to even take a chance that the Bible is true, then there's really no point discussing it with you.

Sorry, can't do that. The Bible isn't the only book in the world that claims to have to absolute truth without backing it with evidence. If I'd consider the Bible, I'd also have to consider all the other books, and that would put me in a fairly dire situation.

Quote:

So until you read the Bible and provide proof that what it says is false, I see little reason to continue discussing it with you.

I'll say it again: You made the claim, so it's your burden of proof. Simple as that. Also, why is it that people like you never seem to understand that one can read the Bible thoroughly and still reject its claims?

---
Me make music: Triofobie
---
"We need Tobias and his awesome trombone, too." - Johan Halmén

J-Gamer
Member #12,491
January 2011
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^This

" There are plenty of wonderful ideas in The Bible, but God isn't one of them." - Derezo
"If your body was a business, thought would be like micro-management and emotions would be like macro-management. If you primarily live your life with emotions, then you are prone to error on the details. If you over-think things all the time you tend to lose scope of priorities." - Mark Oates

Idealius
Member #1,619
November 2001

If religion and intelligence aren't connected how come atheists are more likely to have read the entire bible and be more able to answer bible trivia?

This goes back to my original post saying that irony is the only thing one can be sure of, which in itself, gives more reason for someone to believe in the unreasonable notion a fake deity is real.

You can say that scientific evidence proves God does not exist. But, if you look at star athletes more of them are religious than atheist, which is pretty scientific in itself. Irony.

Some would say this is the placebo effect. However, if you look at the word placebo you find it is weakly defined. Which takes us back to irony.

To really get to the crux of the issue one must argue in a way that avoids things devolving into semantics. Ironically, that is impossible.

All you have to do is define "intelligence" and "religion" in the most basic cores of their meanings in regards to particles and gravity. Ironically, if I spell it out for you, you'll never get it.

Now, that should sufficiently explain what I mean when I say the more intelligent one is, the less they would enjoy being religious.

Of course you can guess that I don't think it applies in all cases, because the universe is ironic, so things can be this that both or neither when speaking of nothing anything and everything. :)

In fact irony is such that if I'm right about all of this, then you are less likely to read it and vice versa. Irony is a self-conscious beast.;)

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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From where I stand, there's a much simpler explanation, namely that people made it up and wrote it down. I can easily verify that people make things up all the time

But you're not willing to verify that the Bible is made up, which is your assertion, which leaves the burden of proof on you.

Tobias Dammers said:

Now you're contradicting yourself. If God exists, and He wrote the Bible, then He'd be able to provide evidence whenever He wanted to.

God does exist, He wrote the Bible, and if He wanted to He could certainly provide evidence of that. But why should he repeat himself to everyone over and over when His Word is already collected in the Bible?

RTFM, noobs.

Tobias Dammers said:

Sorry, can't do that. The Bible isn't the only book in the world that claims to have to absolute truth without backing it with evidence. If I'd consider the Bible, I'd also have to consider all the other books, and that would put me in a fairly dire situation.

So instead of considering any spiritual book as truth, you condemn them all to being lies for your own convenience. How mature of you.

Tobias Dammers said:

I'll say it again: You made the claim, so it's your burden of proof. Simple as that.

You are the one making the claim it is false, so the burden of proof is on you. Simple as that.

The Bible proves itself to be true more and more every time I read it, and don't think that I accept it as true as some sort of axiom, because I don't.

Tobias Dammers said:

Also, why is it that people like you never seem to understand that one can read the Bible thoroughly and still reject its claims?

Are you putting yourself forward as one who has read the Bible thoroughly then? On what basis do you reject it's claims, and which ones?

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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they wrote their texts at least a hundred years after his death.

So you believe in the miraculous then? Jesus must have died about 30 years before he was born if your statement is correct, considering The Gospel of Mark was written around 70 A.D. and Jesus died around year 30.

The Gospel according to Matthew was (according to scholars, of course, how would I know?) a compilation of his own writings from his own first hand experiences.

The Gospel according to John was written by the year 90. Like the book of Matthew, many scholars doubt he actually wrote the final version, but again it was a collection of stories he had told or written previously.

The Apostle Paul lived in the first century, and much of the New Testament is a collection of letters he personally wrote to churches. Unless you believe Paul was miraculously writing letters after his death, that shoots holes in your theory.

So are you just trying to propagate a lie that you and others have been called out here many times before? In that case, is it malice or ignorance on your part?

Obviously I don't know without doubt who wrote the New Testament and when it was written, but I have no reason to doubt the tradition and claims of the majority of scholars over the ages. But I do know there's no way you can say with certainty that they were written "100 years after Jesus' death." Why stop there? Why not make it 500 years?

I think it shows a great deal of ignorance on your part to have to resort to spreading lies, Fox News style, in your fight against Christianity. There are so many valid ways to poke holes at common doctrines and beliefs of Christians, that you don't have to resort to such a thing.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

Just to back up Matthew, many of the letters were copies of the originals written by churches to share with other churches (who wouldn't wish to share a letter you received from an apostle?!) and so they could very well be older than the apostles, but the way they were copied was very meticulous, more so than normal non-biblical texts that are accepted as fact without question (like the Roman historian Josephus who wrote about Christ, even though he didn't like Christians, which is even better evidence than hearing from someone that actually liked him).

Also archaeological evidence backs up the bible.

---
“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

He wrote the Bible

No, a bunch of people wrote the bible.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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Using the words God gave to them. Hence, He wrote the Bible.

Nope. They did it themselves, without supernatural assistance.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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So god just dictated it all to them? Why hasn't he done any more of that? You'd think by now we'd have a massive collection of scriptures. Or at least more tales of history, it seems though that the time line stopped at some point.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Paul wrote this:

Quote:

To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her.

That's kind of a contradiction. If the entire text there is God's word, then God is a liar. i.e., How could Paul, divinely inspired by God, possibly write that "the following is my opinion"? Clearly Paul is saying, "this isn't something Jesus specifically taught, but I believe it to be consistent with his teachings."

Paul goes on and says something to the effect of:

Quote:

In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is--and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.

The concept of God literally speaking the entire Bible is a doctrine that, to me, is clearly a myth even by its own revelation.

And don't bother trying to justify Paul's language to me. I've heard all the arguments, and they are mostly just pathetic.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

The concept of God literally speaking the entire Bible is a doctrine that, to me, is clearly a myth even by its own revelation.

That's a good point. These men were very careful to state when they said something that was clearly their own opinion, even if it made sense and seemed to follow the spirit of what Jesus taught.

---
“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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SiegeLord said:

Nope. They did it themselves, without supernatural assistance.

Explain how David prophecied the manner of Christ's crucifixion in Psalm 22, which Jesus quoted on the cross as a reminder. David wrote Psalm 22 hundreds of years before Christ was even born. I'll tell you how - divine inspiration through the Holy Spirit of God, that's how.

So god just dictated it all to them? Why hasn't he done any more of that? You'd think by now we'd have a massive collection of scriptures.

Isn't 1914 pages enough for you? God's smart enough to know that there is already more there than most people can learn in a lifetime, but there's still something there for everyone.

If the entire text there is God's word, then God is a liar.

Yes there are some passages that are written solely from the mouth of man, but I still assert that the vast majority of the Bible was written by God. It's the same way with Allegro 4 - there were many contributors over the years, but the source code still says "Written by Shawn Hargreaves".

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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Explain how David prophecied the manner of Christ's crucifixion in Psalm 22, which Jesus quoted on the cross as a reminder. David wrote Psalm 22 hundreds of years before Christ was even born. I'll tell you how - divine inspiration through the Holy Spirit of God, that's how.

People make nice predictions about the future that come true all the time.

EDIT: I just glanced around the internet, and it seems that Psalm 22 is not universally agreed upon as a correct prediction: the quality of prediction seems to depend on which translation you use. I'm not qualified to judge whether they are more or less right than you, but from where I stand, it's your word against theirs.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

james_lohr
Member #1,947
February 2002

The Bible proves itself to be true more and more every time I read

Explain how David prophecied the manner of Christ's crucifixion in Psalm 22, which Jesus quoted on the cross as a reminder. David wrote Psalm 22 hundreds of years before Christ was even born. I'll tell you how - divine inspiration through the Holy Spirit of God, that's how.

Can't you see how delusional you sound? When presented with these types of arguments it's small wonder that some atheists are so antagonistic.

I am a Christian myself, and for me Christianity is the hope that my interpretation of God and the Bible has some truth in it, however slim that hope may be.

Since you're obviously very fond of taking the Bible literally, how about this one?

Matthew 17:20

Quote:

I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.

You clearly can't move mountains, so I claim that you have no faith, only delusion, and that you are in no position to argue that the Bible is the absolute word of God. You may argue that you hope that it is the absolute word of God, and your reasons for this hope - this is fine, but any more than this makes you look both silly and hypocritical.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Isn't 1914 pages enough for you? God's smart enough to know that there is already more there than most people can learn in a lifetime, but there's still something there for everyone

No it isn't enough. People, Society and Everything changes.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002

Honestly, if you're looking for a scientific explanation of God, you'll be waiting a long time.

I feel that evidence of a creator is all around us and in fact, the bible states that come judgment day people like yourselves that don't believe in him and claim lack of evidence will be "without excuse". The bible actually states that proof of God's existence is all around us in what He created. So some of you may wish to rethink things carefully before you reject the possibility of a God, it's a dangerous corner to back yourself into.

As I have said before, there no way me or any other Christian in here will be able to convince you that God exists. If you TRULY wish to know, than try finding a private place, and pray to God about it, if you're honest and serious about knowing, it's very possible that He will open your mind and you will begin to understand. But not until then.

No amount of "evidence" will convince you otherwise to be honest and it's pointless to try.

As a matter of fact, if you read the beginning of 1 John, you will discover an amazing truth, that Jesus existed before his birth, that he was the very one who created us, the one that talked to Moses and wrote the 10 commandments. Remember, "God" is translated from the hebrew "Elohim" which is plural. Think of God almost like a family name. There is God the father, which no man has talked to (no, not even Moses) and God the Son (or in his pre-human state, the "Word" or "Logos") who Moses, Noah, Adam etc... all talked to and whom actually done all the creating. The fact is, God DID come to earth and talk to us, and He was put to death as a result. And the same would happen today.

This also explains the seeming contradiction where you read no man has talked to God, then you read about Moses talking to him. No man has talked to God the father.

My point being, He did come to earth as a man, they still didn't believe Him.

---
“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” ― Albert Einstein



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