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Uh-Oh, here comes a God vs Science thread
blargmob
Member #8,356
February 2007
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what part of the Bible's (very broad) explanation of creation contradicts science?

How the mysterious Man in the Sky had Enough Mana to Create Everything Using his Wizard Powers

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"No amount of prayer would have produced the computers you use to spread your nonsense." Arthur Kalliokoski

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Quote:

How the mysterious Man in the Sky created everything using his wizard powers

"The narrative of the book traces the origin of God's chosen people, Israel, from the Creation to their descent into Egypt; the succeeding books of the Torah follow their subsequent liberation from Egypt through the power of God."

MMMMMMMMM-kay. Wikipedia got it right, so read before you link. I see maybe two sentences in that article related to "creation" in passing (and rightly so).

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007

30.3.2011 00:35 - 75 replies.
30.3.2011 00:37 - 76 replies.

Now we wait. ;D

In capitalist America bank robs you.

_Kronk_
Member #12,347
November 2010

Vanneto said:

30.3.2011 00:35 - 75 replies.
30.3.2011 00:37 - 76 replies.

Now we wait.

These things blow up quick don't they ;D

--------------------------------------------------
"If only our dreams were fires to ignite, then we could let the whole world burn" -Emery

My blog: http://joshuadover.tumblr.com

blargmob
Member #8,356
February 2007
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{"name":"603807","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/7\/7\/779018b458adddb755831429afafff05.jpg","w":380,"h":400,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/7\/7\/779018b458adddb755831429afafff05"}603807

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"No amount of prayer would have produced the computers you use to spread your nonsense." Arthur Kalliokoski

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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_Kronk_ said:

Evolution is an unproven theory

Look up the scientific definitions of both "evolution" and "theory".
Those words don't mean what you seem to think they mean.

_Kronk_ said:

it is the Theory of Evolution, not the Law.

Yes, it is also the theory of gravity. Again, look up what "theory" actually means in a scientific context.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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_Kronk_ said:

Evolution is an unproven theory created by faulted mankind that tries to explain his existence by means that factor anything but his own understanding out of the equation.

I'm afraid you fail to understand the meaning of the word "theory" as used in scientific studies. Please see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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There is a certain standard that someone has to meet to be even worth arguing with...

Evolution is a well supported theory and is the the cornerstone theory of ALL of modern biological sciences. Many scientists might argue about the particulars of it, but no scientist will dispute the central tenets. To doubt it, is to declare your ignorance of the modern science and its methods.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

_Kronk_
Member #12,347
November 2010

Alright: my understanding of the use of the word "theory" in science is flawed. I apologize. That still doesn't subtract from the fact that man's understanding of the universe is constantly changing, and also that the big bang theory has no credence.

@ Jesse Lenney: funny ;D

edit:

SiegeLord said:

There is a certain standard that someone has to meet to be even worth arguing with...

Sorry I haven't been spoonfed evolutionary theory my whole life :-X

--------------------------------------------------
"If only our dreams were fires to ignite, then we could let the whole world burn" -Emery

My blog: http://joshuadover.tumblr.com

Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007

You know what? I haven't either. I just prefer to believe I came from dirt.

In capitalist America bank robs you.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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More like you came from a pool of goo. Or a massive cloud of hydrogen gas.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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_Kronk_ said:

That still doesn't subtract from the fact that man's understanding of the universe is constantly changing, and also that the big bang theory has no credence.

Yes, we create new theories to best explain new evidence. Evolution has been very good at explaining evidence so far, which suggests that it reflects the way the world really is.

Quote:

Sorry I haven't been spoonfed evolutionary theory my whole life :-X

I'm a scientist... I can feed myself.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

_Kronk_
Member #12,347
November 2010

Vanneto said:

You know what? I haven't either. I just prefer to believe I came from dirt.

More like you came from a pool of goo. Or a massive cloud of hydrogen gas.

They both sound equally silly until you consider the possibilty that God created your ancestor's earthly body out of the dirt that He had just recently created :) He is God; just a touch provides life if He wills it. That makes more sense than believing that matter can (a) create itself and (b) given time, can form logical structures that perform incredibly complex functions that we don't even fully understand yet.

edit:
Plus, if God doesn't exist, what is there to live for?

--------------------------------------------------
"If only our dreams were fires to ignite, then we could let the whole world burn" -Emery

My blog: http://joshuadover.tumblr.com

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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_Kronk_ said:

That makes more sense than believing that matter can (a) create itself

It can't though. Not according to science at least. Creating something from nothing is against the laws of physics.

Quote:

Plus, if God doesn't exist, what is there to live for?

Each person lives for their own reasons. I certainly don't need the belief in some all powerful being to keep me going.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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_Kronk_ said:

Plus, if God doesn't exist, what is there to live for?

Arguing with strangers on the Internet.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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_Kronk_ said:

Plus, if God doesn't exist, what is there to live for?

Sex, Drugs and Rock n Roll.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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@Jesse Lenney

Let's assume there is an invisible pink unicorn.

Since the unicorn is pink, we know he reflects photos which frequencies represent the pink color, however we know the unicorn is invisible and hence he cannot reflect light.

This way we have arrived to a contradiction, and hence our assumption about existence of invisible pink unicorn was false.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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_Kronk_ said:

He is God; just a touch provides life if He wills it.

Which verse says that? ??? What would it even mean for God to "touch" ... whatever it is he'd provide life to?

_Kronk_ said:

That makes more sense than believing that matter can (a) create itself and (b) given time, can form logical structures that perform incredibly complex functions that we don't even fully understand yet.

I don't think anybody believes that matter creates itself. That sounds paradoxical to me. IIRC, the Big Bang theory (which I assume you are referring to) theorizes that all of the energy of the universe was at one time compressed to a single point (the center of the universe as we know it), and it was very hot, and it rapidly expanded and cooled; forming matter and anti-matter (IIRC, matter is considered compressed energy; I think anti-matter therefore is too). The matter later formed stars, the stars formed bigger elements of matter, and the rest is history. There are still unanswered questions and the whole thing is by no means understood fully, but it based on scientific evidence it is the best explanation we have come up with so far.

As for the formation of complex life forms from very simple ones (I think the simplest definition of an organic compound is containing carbon, with the exceptions CO and CO2, IIRC), that is already explainable... :-/

_Kronk_ said:

Plus, if God doesn't exist, what is there to live for?

What is there to live for if God does exist? The good part begins after death according to the Bible... :-X

Live for the things that make you happy. Programming makes me happy. Music makes me happy. Comedy, drama, etc. Other people make me happy (sometimes). :) People that you love, for example. I think that's reason enough.

Also, it's just instinctual to live, I think (for most life forms).

Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007

_Kronk_ said:

Plus, if God doesn't exist, what is there to live for?

Live to be alive?

Quote:

They both sound equally silly until you consider the possibilty that God created your ancestor's earthly body out of the dirt that He had just recently created :) He is God; just a touch provides life if He wills it. That makes more sense than believing that matter can (a) create itself and (b) given time, can form logical structures that perform incredibly complex functions that we don't even fully understand yet.

Not to me. God is the ultimate silly for me. But its just a matter of opinions.

In capitalist America bank robs you.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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bamccaig said:

That's all science really is. It's knowledge.

I disagree. Science is science, knowledge is knowledge. A scientist says "I did such and so, then this happened. Try it yourself if you don't believe me. I also happen to think that things work in such and such a way to explain it".

_Kronk_ said:

That still doesn't subtract from the fact that man's understanding of the universe is constantly changing, and also that the big bang theory has no credence.

Yes, the knowledge we claim to have that originated from science is constantly changing, but it rarely contradicts itself. It's rather a refinement of what we know, modifying particular points to get ever closer to the truth. For example, the theory of special relativity didn't throw classical physics entirely out the window, but adjusted it a bit to be more logical given that things can't move faster than light.

LennyLen said:

Sex, Drugs and Rock n Roll.

There's also programming to enjoy ;D.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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bamccaig said:

and it was very hot

Heat is define by movements of molecules.. There was one dot, less than single molecule.. Hot, eh?

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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type568 said:

Heat is define by movements of molecules.. There was one dot, less than single molecule.. Hot, eh?

Don't ask me. :P I'm not a scientist and certainly not an expert on the Big Bang theory. I referenced Wikipedia to help me with the explanation and it described it as hot. Perhaps the matter formed on the spot, heated rapidly, and that caused the expansion? Fuck if I know. :P

Science is rarely correct the first time around. You continue to revise it as you learn more. It's always a work in progress. That's the point. Unlike religion, which assumes that the text that passed through the hands of billions of humans over the course of thousands of years is the unquestionable truth, science encourages you to question and challenge it and correct it.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
avatar

type568 said:

Heat is define by movements of molecules.. There was one dot, less than single molecule.. Hot, eh?

That's how you define temperature in matter now that molecules and matter exist.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

_Kronk_
Member #12,347
November 2010

Each person lives for their own reasons. I certainly don't need the belief in some all powerful being to keep me going.

Well, if you just disappear when you die, why not die now? What you live for now is irrelevant. Don't take this the wrong way; I Don't Want You To Kill Yourself, but without something absolute; something that cannot change to live for and see everything out of, everything else is meaningless. The ultimate beauty in life is seeing the hand of the Creator in everything that He lovingly created.

SiegeLord said:

Arguing with strangers on the Internet.

;D

bamccaig said:

Which verse says that? What would it even mean for God to "touch" ... whatever it is he'd provide life to?

I don't think anybody believes that matter creates itself. That sounds paradoxical to me. IIRC, the Big Bang theory (which I assume you are referring to) theorizes that all of the energy of the universe was at one time compressed to a single point (the center of the universe as we know it), and it was very hot, and it rapidly expanded and cooled; forming matter and anti-matter (IIRC, matter is considered compressed energy; I think anti-matter therefore is too). The matter later formed stars, the stars formed bigger elements of matter, and the rest is history. There are still unanswered questions and the whole thing is by no means understood fully, but it based on scientific evidence it is the best explanation we have come up with so far.

As for the formation of complex life forms from very simple ones (I think the simplest definition of an organic compound is containing carbon, with the exceptions CO and CO2, IIRC), that is already explainable...

What is there to live for if God does exist? The good part begins after death according to the Bible...

Well, first: for whatever reason (yes, I don't know. I'll ask God someday ;D) God decided to create an intelligent being that would have communion with Him; we are created to know our Creator and He is the only place to find ultimate contentment; as He is the only thing in the Universe that is absolutely good. But then Adam and Eve messed it up, etc, you know that story.

Second: even if all of the energy in the universe was compressed to a hot little .zip file, even that energy had to come from somewhere. So it still doesn't explain anything :-/

Third: the "good part" comes when we have communion with God and know Him on a personal basis, not only after death. The after death part is just even better becuase we are seperated from the consequences of the Fall, e.g., disease, sin, death, suffering, anything not good.

I'm sorry if this seems overly spiritual or "religious", but if God created it all, then it naturally all goes back to Him ;)

--------------------------------------------------
"If only our dreams were fires to ignite, then we could let the whole world burn" -Emery

My blog: http://joshuadover.tumblr.com

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
avatar

I don't know the details of the big bang either, but I'm not going to refuse to eat meat on certain portions of the earths orbit as a result.

[EDIT]

Forgivness? Dogs can do that.
Karma? Doesn't involve yahweh, but still religion.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.



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