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A question to all the married men
Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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I think he meant that nobody has gone to heaven yet.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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I think we just drove away someone who's been a member of this community for nine years.

relay01
Member #6,988
March 2006
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I think he meant that nobody has gone to heaven yet.

Guess we'll never know.

I'm more concerned that a thread where people stood in defense of their beliefs, their Bible, and their God turned so ugly and began to insult the very words they defended.

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LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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I think we just drove away someone who's been a member of this community for nine years.

No, he drove himself away. He chose to express his beliefs, even though he knew what would happen should he do so (he even admitted that), so no blame can be laid on anyone else.

relay01
Member #6,988
March 2006
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Wait... what happened to Chris?

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Arvidsson
Member #4,603
May 2004
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God bless you all, for it is written!

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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Isn't "Thou shalt not ragequit" one of the commandments? ???

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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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That one comes after "Thou shalt not read the bible while sitting on the toilet".

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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All I can say is I'm truly sorry for bringing up the taco.

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Me make music: Triofobie
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"We need Tobias and his awesome trombone, too." - Johan Halmén

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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See, this is where you confuse us. Is this a serious statement or not?

Essentially.
Now, you're going to say that they're both right because they mean something different although they use the same word, am I right?

When specifically did I give you the impression that I thought you were?

Your repeated inability to understand what I'm saying, despite other people getting the point just fine. Since you can't make it clear what you disagree with, I can only conclude that you think there's some hidden or between-the-lines thing you're picking on.

Neil Roy said:

Do me a favour and delete my account from these forums. It'll make everyone happy, including me.

:-/

All I can say is I'm truly sorry for bringing up the taco.

Who'd have guessed people took it seriously?

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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[...a truly all knowing God should understand why people with critical thinking don't believe...it does matter what other people believe because their beliefs affect our own lives in every way, and they make sure of that...]

You, sir, win the thread! :)

gnolam said:

Isn't "Thou shalt not ragequit" one of the commandments? ???

;D

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Evert said:

Your repeated inability to understand what I'm saying, despite other people getting the point just fine.

Again, I understand you just fine. Neil Black's post that you said was "spot on" was fairly obvious to me a page back. I still don't get why that's difficult for you to understand, but that conversation is like hitting my own hand with a hammer at this point, and this thread needs to die anyway.

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Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

GameCreator
Member #2,541
July 2002
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And get resurrected?

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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First off, to get this out of the way, I was never mocking Neil. My signature is a joke because he refused to address my point except with an illogical, passionate retort at the very end.

Maybe I didn't articulate my points clear enough to be understandable, but I was barely arguing with his end result, just the method of how he got there. Holding internally consistent beliefs is more important to me than exactly what you believe. I cannot necessarily tell you if what you believe is true, but I can tell you if you are inconsistent or hypocritical.

The interesting thing is I started my friendly little discussion with him because he admitted to egging on people who thought their loved ones were in heaven in a way that sounded much like mocking to me: taking what somebody holds dear and making fun of them... or in the very least starting up a debate you know the other side cannot win (because you won't listen or concede even the smallest of points). Don't dish out what you cannot take.

Evert said:

Now, you're going to say that they're both right because they mean something different although they use the same word, am I right?

Not at all. I mean, I know you're a smart guy, but I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to understand. I cannot speak for either Chris or Neil, but I'm pretty sure both of them would say that God is "all mighty" (that phrase is used in the Bible many times) and "omnipotent": he has the ability to do whatever he wants to do. That's all the average Christian means by that. Few people would say God is "omnipotent" if the definition attached to it comes with some bogus self-contradicting concept.

Maybe you felt that Neil was using omnipotence as a way to justify some logically contradictory thing? In that case, Chris would probably consider it a misapplied usage of the omnipotence. But I don't think that's what Neil was getting at.

Onewing
Member #6,152
August 2005
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My question a few posts back was to try and gain a different perspective, the higher power's perspective. Why would a god make himself impossible to prove, not show himself and require faith in his existence and follow a set of beliefs as a right to his kingdom? Why would a god do that?

I am curious about hell's existence myself. I read an article yesterday about a pastor who concluded that hell doesn't exist because it doesn't fit in the scheme of God's love. Then the pastor lost his job. And I do think it's a good point that hell seems like a scare tactic.

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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Onewing said:

I am curious about hell's existence myself.

There's only one good way to know for sure. 8-)

Anyway, the "rich man vs Lazarus" addresses both of your points. Read it and you'll see! Jesus says that hell exists, and he says why God doesn't bother proving himself.

Alright, back to my earlier point. Let's not make a doctrine of a side point. The point of Jesus' story was to explain why God doesn't continually prove himself. He used hell in the story because it's something that the people could relate with. (They believed in hell.)

The fact that he talked about hell as if it exists is not proof either way of its existence.

GameCreator
Member #2,541
July 2002
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Read it and you'll see! Jesus says that hell exists, and he says why God doesn't bother proving himself.

To be clear, which version of the bible is this? I ask because Neil said that the King James version doesn't count (which is, of course, arguable).

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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To be clear, which version of the bible is this?

Did you finish reading my post? ???

But whether the English translation says "hell" or "hades" or "the underworld" is really irrelevant, isn't it? Aren't we talking about a concept, and not a four letter word?

relay01
Member #6,988
March 2006
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So if it was impossible for God to lie, yet Jesus the Son speaks in parables (which is like a lie) :o

Then it must be possible for God to lie! Or maybe just the Son can lie.

Who has a Greek bible? Maybe the Greeks have like 40 words for lie and we've all just missed it somehow.

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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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We should have Bible studies on A.cc. ;D

But whether the English translation says "hell" or "hades" or "the underworld" is really irrelevant, isn't it? Aren't we talking about a concept, and not a four letter word?

As mentioned earlier, many people believe the literal translation of what we know as "Hell" to have actually been either a grave or "garbage dump" (or something like that), making the torturous, fiery eternity that is sensationalized in a lot of churches probably completely misleading and false. Of course, it's hard to be sure what is really meant.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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bamccaig said:

As mentioned earlier, many people believe the literal translation of what we know as "Hell" to have actually been either a grave or "garbage dump"

Right. I'm moving beyond the literal translation, and to the concept itself.

For a doctrine as important as hell (the punishment for not believing), there ought to be a clear definition somewhere, not some vague references to words such as sheol, hades, or the grave.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Right. I'm moving beyond the literal translation, and to the concept itself.

For a doctrine as important as hell (the punishment for not believing), there ought to be a clear definition somewhere, not some vague references to words such as sheol, hades, or the grave.

Does the Bible actually describe it as a punishment or just the alternative? For all we know, Jesus actually meant nothing more than your corpse would be burned or rot in the ground, and your "soul" would cease to exist. In other words, what most atheists probably expect after death: nothing. :-/ Certainly that's the lesser of the fates if the alternative is "Heaven", but then again it's not such a bad fate IMHO. That would probably also make better sense for the character that I interpret God be. He doesn't necessarily torture you, but doesn't "save" you either.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Read Matthew 25:31-46. It's a story of what a future judgment day will look like.

Short version: the righteous (religious) are being sent to the pit of "eternal flames" for "eternity", but don't understand why. Jesus gives them a reason.

This is what I'm getting at. The passage doesn't even mention the word "hell" but it offers some description. Was Jesus being serious about hell's existence? Perhaps. But again, the point of the passage is that being religious doesn't mean you are good.

The interesting thing is that many (many) of the same people who use that passage as support for hell will not use it to support a "works-based" salvation. i.e., They are willing to take Jesus literally regarding the description of "hell," but they are not willing to take his explanation of why they are going literally.

And that's kind of ironic because the explanation is the point of the story.

Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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The interesting thing is that many (many) of the same people who use that passage as support for hell will not use it to support a "works-based" salvation. i.e., They are willing to take Jesus literally regarding the description of "hell," but they are not willing to take his explanation of why they are going literally.

The church I go to seems to really like James 2:14-26. They teach faith-based salvation, but also stress that faith without works is a dead faith.

Then they put their money where their mouth is and give free lunch to all of us poor, starving college students. ;D

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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bamccaig said:

Does the Bible actually describe it as a punishment or just the alternative?

It's described as a "bad place", bad enough that (insert John 3:16 here). Calling it a punishment is a bit of a misnomer, but it's definitely not an "alternative". The details are not really elaborated on, admittedly. Even Matthew 25:31-46 may or may not be literal. I've heard many interpretations of what a literal Hell might be, and they vary wildly. They're all fairly bad, though. The word "Hell" is synonymous with torment for a reason, right?

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.



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