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A question to all the married men
GameCreator
Member #2,541
July 2002
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Maybe some atheists just like thinking things are foolish and unlikely because it's comfortable to do so? It's a natural human response to embrace what's comfortable, no need to defend it ...

Comfort is a good word. Did you ever look at religion as a parent figure? It has it all: rewards for doing good, punishments for doing bad, the father figure who's always around, absolute guarantees and truth (read: security). Religion and God give you everything.

(For the record, I should probably also say that I'm agnostic, despite my efforts.)

Onewing
Member #6,152
August 2005
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SiegeLord said:

He really should! It'd make these threads more interesting

Hmmm, if God proved himself to you, proved to you heaven and hell and proved to you what you had to do for the rights to heaven, would you choose to follow then or still choose to do as you saw fit, knowing well that it could lead to hell?

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Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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.

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“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Neil Roy said:

It is a collection of letters that were written by different people, all who witnessed the same events and who knew Christ personally.

This page says the "Gospel" (New Testament) was written at the earliest a.d 50, so it's not like the original guys wrote them. IIRC from other writings, they didn't write them down because they thought the Second Coming was going to happen Real Soon Now in a year or two. Still waiting.

http://www.allabouttruth.org/when-was-the-bible-written-faq.htm

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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IIRC from other writings, they didn't write them down because they thought the Second Coming was going to happen Real Soon Now in a year or two.

I also don't think writing materials were all that common 2000 years ago. Nor was the ability to write.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Comfort is a good word. Did you ever look at religion as a parent figure?

No, because that would make me complacent. Just a choice on my part.

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Vanneto
Member #8,643
May 2007

Onewing said:

Hmmm, if God proved himself to you, proved to you heaven and hell and proved to you what you had to do for the rights to heaven, would you choose to follow then or still choose to do as you saw fit, knowing well that it could lead to hell?

Now this is just my opinion... But Hell seems like a very good scare tactic to make people do what you want them to do. That may have come out wrong, let me explain myself a bit.

I have been told that God loves all his children (I also heard this from a priest) so why would he send anyone to Hell? Especially since you can be a perfectly good person and you get sent to an eternity of suffering and damnation just because you didn't believe in Him/believed in the wrong Him/were born before there even was a Him?

I'm not starting anything, I'm saying this from a "God exists" perspective and am only curious on what you Christians think about Hell. (for example, Neil doesn't believe in a Hell, which to me is more logical than there being one)

In capitalist America bank robs you.

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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No, we were discussing reading comprehension.

More specifically, your lack thereof. I really wasn't saying anything deep or profound.

Derezo said:

Doesn't he sound psychotic?

Yes.

Neil Roy said:

Anyhow, my point is, the stories of what happened to Jesus in all these various letters are proof that the events stated in them actually happened.

That, unfortunately, is not a given. Eyewitness accounts can be notoriously unreliable.

Neil Roy said:

if you accept God as being all powerful, as you should at least accept that concept when reading the bible

But 23 keeps saying the Bible says he isn't!

Neil Roy said:

The churches they wrote them too considered the letters so important that they would make copies of them to share with other churches (these were letters from actual apostles of Christ after all), and the letters were copied in such a way that if the smallest mistake was made, the entire text was burned and it was started over again, so the copies are very accurate.

Care to back that up?
During the Middle-Ages and before, scribes spent a great deal of time copying books, trying to be accurate and trying the best they could. Nevertheless, they did make mistakes, and mistakes that sometimes stuck. In some cases, it's clear that the scribe who was copying the text couldn't actually read and therefore didn't know what he wrote, leaving in spelling errors, forgetting a word and sometimes inserting it in the wrong place. Or copying someone else's notes into the text.
In the Dead Sea scrolls (obviously from well before the middle ages, but highly relevant because they date from the time when Jesus is supposed to have lived), some texts have small variations compared to the versions we know, or extra sentences and paragraphs that clearly belong in the original text, but were lost from the present-day Bible.
And before someone turns red and begins to fume about "pointing out silly errors in the Bible that actually mean nothing", that wasn't the point. The point is that the scribes who copied it were not infallible and did make mistakes.

Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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This page says the "Gospel" (New Testament) was written at the earliest a.d 50, so it's not like the original guys wrote them.

The books of the New Testament were written between somewhere around the late 30s AD to the 90s AD (these are the earliest and latest reasonable dates, respectively, that I've heard of). The earliest Gospel was either Matthew or Mark (I can't remember off the top of my head, although your link says Mark) which was probably written in the early 50s. The Gospels are Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, by the way. They are not the entire New Testament. Although the New Testament may be referred to as "the Gospel" since gospel simply means "good news". Many of the letters predate the Gospels, some of them possibly even by a decade or more.

Your link's information seems to be a little out of date. It puts the earliest letters at 48 AD, much too late. And it puts the Gospel of John at 85 AD when it was more likely written in the 90s.

With those dates, why should we assume it wasn't the original guys that wrote them? Jesus began his ministry around 30 AD. If the men he picked as apostles were fairly young (say, 20ish), then they would only be 40 in the year 50 AD. Of course, this would make John 80 when the Gospel of John was written, which is ancient but not impossible. Or the Gospel of John could have been written by someone younger who was close to John.

LennyLen said:

I also don't think writing materials were all that common 2000 years ago. Nor was the ability to write.

They had scribes. Paul was pretty open about the fact that he used scribes to write his letters (Paul could write, but he had poor eyesight which made writing difficult for him). If one of the men who personally knew the guy you've founded your religion on wants to write something down, you'd probably be willing to go fetch someone that can write.

Ack, giant block of text is giant. But I love this subject. It's so fascinating.

EDIT:

Saw this after I posted:

Vanneto said:

I'm not starting anything, I'm saying this from a "God exists" perspective and am only curious on what you Christians think about Hell.

I've heard many ideas of what hell is. From the fire-and-brimstone eternity of torture, to a place that only demons go to, to a mere separation from God, to hell doesn't exist in any of those ways. Personally, I'm just not sure at this point. And I really don't much care. As much as people like to call hell a good scare tactic, I've never really been concerned about it.

EDIT 2:

Evert said:

The point is that the scribes who copied it were not infallible and did make mistakes.

Which is why finding early copies is always so fantastic. Also, there are methods of deriving an accurate picture of the original text by looking at numerous variations from different areas, but early copies is still the best way.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Evert said:

But 23 keeps saying the Bible says he isn't!

See, this is where you confuse us. Is this a serious statement or not?

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Neil Roy said:

do not throw your pearls to pigs.

I love that saying! I use it when women are trying to get my money. ;D

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Neil Roy said:

"Do not give to dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." - Mathew 7:6

Pretty much how I feel about the scientific method...

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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Onewing said:

Hmmm, if God proved himself to you, proved to you heaven and <censored> and proved to you what you had to do for the rights to heaven, would you choose to follow then or still choose to do as you saw fit, knowing well that it could lead to <censored>?

Pardon my censoring script.

It depends on the details of what he said, if heaven is lucrative enough, I'd work to get into it. But as some other person's sig said... if only rational and questioning people go into heck, then I'd rather be with them than go to heaven where the blind believers go. Obviously, if it's the questioning types that go to heaven, then all the better 8-).

Also... if there is a God, I'm VERY mad at him for letting the world become what it has become. I might just do the opposite of what he wants me to do just to spite him.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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SiegeLord said:

Also... if there is a God, I'm VERY mad at him for letting the world become what it has become. I might just do the opposite of what he wants me to do just to spite him.

What if it's that sort of attitude that has led the world to become what it has become? :P

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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I'm mad at him then for letting me get that attitude.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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Evert said:

More specifically, your lack thereof. I really wasn't saying anything deep or profound.

When specifically did I give you the impression that I thought you were?

See, this is where you confuse us. Is this a serious statement or not?

Stop feeding him! ;D

SiegeLord said:

It depends on the details of what he said, if heaven is lucrative enough, I'd work to get into it. But as some other person's sig said... if only rational and questioning people go into heck, then I'd rather be with them than go to heaven where the blind believers go. Obviously, if it's the questioning types that go to heaven, then all the better 8-).

Odd criteria, but hey, man makes God in his own image, amirite?

--
Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
Step 2. Pray.

Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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So you're mad at him for not forcing you to love him like an obedient little robot? Please, feel free to turn in your free will and be a mindless puppet! ;)

I'm joking (and semi-trolling, I guess), but it really does bother me how many people will complain about how, if God does exist, he shouldn't have let the world get into the state it's in. And then they'll turn around and complain about how the church turns people into mindless following sheep (which is obviously a bad thing when it happens). How do you expect to have free will and have no one chose to screw things up?

EDIT:

I should add the disclaimer that I don't accuse you of doing this. It's just bothered me in the past and you reminded me of it.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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And then they'll turn around and complain about how the church turns people into mindless following sheep (which is obviously a bad thing when it happens).

That's because the willful leader gets them to do whatever he wants. If the leader was equally brain dead, they wouldn't be any worse than stamp collectors.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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.

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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"Gone" is in the past tense, implying it has already happened. The good dead Christians have to wait for the Rapture or Second Coming or something.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

SiegeLord
Member #7,827
October 2006
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Odd criteria, but hey, man makes God in his own image, amirite?

It is said that "heck is other people", so why would I want to go heaven full of people I don't like?

So you're mad at him for not forcing you to love him like an obedient little robot? Please, feel free to turn in your free will and be a mindless puppet! ;)

I'm joking (and semi-trolling, I guess), but it really does bother me how many people will complain about how, if God does exist, he shouldn't have let the world get into the state it's in. And then they'll turn around and complain about how the church turns people into mindless following sheep (which is obviously a bad thing when it happens). How do you expect to have free will and have no one chose to screw things up?

I don't necessarily feel that free will is the issue here, but if that's the price to pay, then so be it.

Anyway, enough of this for now. My gf is offering to help me meet my maker if I don't take a break from this.

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow."-Ecclesiastes 1:18
[SiegeLord's Abode][Codes]:[DAllegro5]:[RustAllegro]

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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SiegeLord said:

Anyway, enough of this for now. My gf is offering to help me meet my maker if I don't take a break from this.

She's threatening to tattle to your mom?

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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.

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Neil Roy said:

Ask them where good people go when they die. When they say "heaven" then ask them to explain to you John 3:13

Well, a "good" Christian would respond with "it depends on if they were a believer."

But regarding that verse, the context is clearly that no man is qualified to speak about heaven because they've never been there. Jesus' point had nothing to do with whether or not a dead man had ever been in "heaven" (whatever that is).

It's not good to build doctrines based on comments made in passing, particularly considering it was a one-on-one conversation with somebody. Jesus quite possibly was even speaking from that man's perspective.

People do that a lot with the Bible. I don't really think it says as much as people try to read into it.



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