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A question to all the married men
Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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If you repent you can get to Heaven, so why not this small thing?

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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So, why does the Bible tell us about Adam and Eve? Why were they so special, and all the other thousands of humans ignored? Maybe because that wouldn't have fit the Babylonian myth they were pirated from?

They are the line to which Christ was to come from. Satan seduced Eve, giving rise to his child Cain, trying to stop Christ from being born.

Where does Jesus say that divorced people who say "sorry" can have sex without being adulterers?

Not just 'sorry', but "LORD in the name of Jesus Christ please forgive all my sins". Being actually sorry instead of just saying it. When God forgives sins, they don't exist anymore, so they're no longer divorced or married and as such are free to marry again (or have sex without committing adultery as well).

Isaiah 43:25 said:

I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Matthew Leverton said:

To cut to the point, your comment of "It must turn a lot of people off to Christianity when churches teach their own doctrine instead of Christ's." is a bit hypocritical. You just think your understanding of the Bible is Christ's, despite the parts you are actually reading in and rewording and excluding to fit your viewpoint.

What did I reword? How do you define fornication? I define it as 'wanton sex' or sex based on lust instead of love. Do you define all non married sex as fornication? If you do, I feel sorry for you. In the bible, the Hebrew and Greek words used for fornication are translated as first 'adultery' and second 'harlotry'. Does having sex with someone you love count as either of those to you?

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Somehow the word "adultery" implies you have to be a grown up...

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Do you define all non married sex as fornication? If you do, I feel sorry for you.

I believe it's quite obvious that Biblically speaking "sexual immorality" is essentially all sex outside of marriage. (There are odd exceptions that allow a person to impregnate his widowed sister-in-law, etc.)

Why should you feel sorry that I don't feel compelled to twist the Bible to satisfy me? Or do you feel sorry that I don't think I have to follow it?

Quote:

What did I reword?

The doctrine that a person can be pardoned from future adultery is simply a doctrine you are making up yourself based on your own personal assumptions. That is the hypocrisy that I am speaking of.

Sure one could say "sorry" and get forgiven for past adultery, but they are still breaking Jesus' teachings the next time they have sex.

The burden of proof is on you to show that the Bible allows that, given that Jesus expressly forbids it. But you piece this from here and that from there to come up with a doctrine that makes you comfortable with Christianity.

Except for the most devout of scholars, this is what every Christian does (i.e., justify one's own belief in a certain thing by piecing together arbitrary concepts, while not applying that same sort of logic when it forms a contradiction to a belief). To write off those who believe that pre-marital sex is wrong as some people making up anti-Christian doctrines is not as clear cut as you believe.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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I think this is what's meant by "immoral sex"

http://bible.cc/ezekiel/23-20.htm

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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I believe it's quite obvious that Biblically speaking "sexual immorality" is essentially all sex outside of marriage.

Now the burden of proof is on your shoulders. Where does the Bible say that? Your current (previous) church may teach that, but I don't believe the Bible does. Where does the Bible say get married before having sex? Where?

Matthew Leverton said:

Why should you feel sorry that I don't feel compelled to twist the Bible to satisfy me?

I'm not twisting the Bible at all, you're the one twisting my words into something they're not.

Matthew Leverton said:

The doctrine that a person can be pardoned from future adultery is simply a doctrine you are making up yourself based on your own personal assumptions. That is the hypocrisy that I am speaking of.

I'm not making anything up. When God forgives sins, they don't exist (they are blotted out). So when you get a divorce and you repent, you are no longer married or divorced, you have a clean slate. If you get married again, and commit adultery, it's still a sin and I never said otherwise. There's no hypocrisy involved here.

Matthew Leverton said:

Sure one could say "sorry" and get forgiven for past adultery, but they are still breaking Jesus' teachings the next time they have sex.

They are no longer married, so they are not committing adultery. Even God himself divorced Israel. Is God a sinner? I think not.

Jeremiah 3:8 said:

And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Divorce is frowned upon in the Bible, but also sometimes allowed for, given adultery has taken place and possibly at other times, but I don't care to research that for you at the moment.

Matthew Leverton said:

The burden of proof is on you to show that the Bible allows that, given that Jesus expressly forbids it. But you piece this from here and that from there to come up with a doctrine that makes you comfortable with Christianity.

Adultery is a sin, yes, so is divorce (sometimes, not always), but the blood of Christ washes away sins upon repentance. They don't exist anymore, and you are free to remarry if you wish. Would you call God an adulterer if he chose to remarry? I don't think so.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Would you call God an adulterer if he chose to remarry? I don't think so.

I'd call God a murderer for wiping out entire cities just so Jews can have a homeland in the Middle East.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Now the burden of proof is on your shoulders. Where does the Bible say that?

There is no direct verse that will say exactly that. You'd have to go back and look into Jewish customs and laws at the time and what would be obviously assumed when (e.g.) Paul wrote about sexual immorality.

So there's no way one could ever prove to you that the Bible is against sex before marriage because:

  1. You don't believe it's wrong, and

  2. There's no direct verse to disagree with you.

However, there's no way one could ever prove to you that the Bible is against repentant, divorced people from having sex because:

  1. You don't believe it's wrong, and

  2. There's an indirect way to support your beliefs, despite there being a direct verse that disagrees with you.

My point, which you refuse (and will probably always refuse) to acknowledge, is that given a personal belief about moral topics, you will make sure to find a way to justify your beliefs.

Yet you think your indirect support is valid, but other people's indirect support is not. It's equivalent to the old "he's not a true Christian" line people like to use when a Christian does something that others are critical of.

Quote:

Even God himself divorced Israel.

Ever hear of a analogy? Your reasoning with that one is beyond hilarious.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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I'd call God a murderer for wiping out entire cities just so Jews can have a homeland in the Middle East.

Matthew 22:32 said:

'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

What business is it of yours what God does with his own children? They are still alive, he just brought them back to Heaven. It's highly doubtful he would have taken their flesh lives without good reason. Most likely idolatry. This was also before the dispensation of Grace that Christ bought for everyone. It's not a good thing to piss off the living God, now is it?

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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It's not a good thing to piss off the living God, now is it?

I do it (figuratively, since he doesn't exist) all the time. Even more nothing happens.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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Wow. And all that fuss about an old book.
The whole "no sex before marriage" thing was installed as a precautionary social norm, based on two things:

  • women can't have jobs, and therefor cannot sustain themselves economically

  • there is no reliable anticonception

So when you had sex before marriage, the outcome would often be a child with a single mother, who then had a huge problem - no husband to feed her and the child, and no other way of making a living. Such a child would typically become the responsibility of the community (you can't just kill the bastard or leave it to starve with his mother), and the authorities back then obviously didn't want too many of these cases.
That's all there is to it; God was only added for extra argumentative strength - "If thou commitst adultery, His wrath will be upon thee" just sounds a lot spicier than "Look, you don't want to have sex unless you are prepared to handle the consequences."

If you want to "save yourself" for other reasons that religious ones, go ahead. At least you won't risk waking up next to a total stranger, wondering what on Earth you saw in her the day before. Just don't expect it to be all magic and fireworks and mythical connection.

---
Me make music: Triofobie
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"We need Tobias and his awesome trombone, too." - Johan Halmén

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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you can't just kill the #@$#@ or leave it to starve with his mother

Why not?

If the goal of invoking religion is to prevent unsupported children, then the logical thing to make up would be that all children born out of wedlock are to be sacrificed to God.

No need to spoil the fun.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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There is no direct verse that will say exactly that. You'd have to go back and look into Jewish customs and laws at the time and what would be obviously assumed when (e.g.) Paul wrote about sexual immorality.

The meaning of fornication in the Bible is quite clear given the definitions of the Hebrew and Greek words used for it. 'Adultery', and 'Harlotry'. If you want to say that all sex before marriage is harlotry, that's up to you. But it's still just your opinion, and you have no proof that sex before marriage is explicitly disallowed.

Matthew Leverton said:

However, there's no way on could ever prove to you that the Bible is against repentant, divorced people from having sex because:

  • 1. You don't believe it's wrong, and

  • 2. There's an indirect way to support your beliefs, despite there being a direct verse that disagrees with you.

1) I don't believe it's wrong because it's not in the Bible.
2) What verse is it that disagrees with me? Let's see it.

Matthew Leverton said:

My point, which you refuse (and will probably always refuse) to acknowledge, is that given a personal belief about moral topics, you will make sure to find a way to justify your beliefs.

I go by what the Bible tells me. If that disagrees with what I believe then so be it, but I don't believe that it does (and you have shown me no proof that it does either).

I do it (figuratively, since he doesn't exist) all the time. Even more nothing happens.

I heard this from my pastor at Shepherd's Chapel once - "God only chastises those he cares about.". Probably not a good situation if God no longer cares to correct you anymore. Don't think you won't be responsible for all your choices on Judgement Day though.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Don't think you won't be responsible for all your choices on Judgement Day though.

I'm quaking in my boots NOT!

And my mom told me if I ate all those peanut butter sandwiches, I'd get constipated. When I pointed out that it wasn't happening, she said "Wait til you're older". I'm older now and still nothing.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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You may feel comfortable with your sins now, but when it comes down to it and you're faced with 1000 years living on the wrong side of Heaven with a chance of going into the Lake of Fire and no longer existing, you may reconsider.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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you're faced with 1000 years living on the wrong side of Heaven with a chance of going into the Lake of Fire and no longer existing, you may reconsider.

And you get these facts where?

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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2) What verse is it that disagrees with me? Let's see it.

Jesus said:

Quote:

But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Consider just the second half. Guy divorces woman because she's a bad cook. A virgin man marries her. He is now an adulterer.

But that's too radical for you, so you must invent some concept that if she apologizes to God for her husband divorcing her (despite her doing nothing wrong), then the man who marries her will not be considered an adulterer.

Quote:

"Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?"

Jesus answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

Again, no exceptions for people who are sorry. That's kind of an important thing to omit.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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And you get these facts where?

1000 years - look up the Lord's day.
Wrong side of heaven - read Luke.
Lake of Fire - read Revelations.

Consider just the second half. Guy divorces woman because she's a bad cook. A virgin man marries her. He is now an adulterer.

But that's too radical for you, so you must invent some concept that if she apologizes to God for her husband divorcing her (despite her doing nothing wrong), then the man who marries her will not be considered an adulterer.

Again, no exceptions for people who are sorry. That's kind of an important thing to omit.

So why did Jesus sacrifice himself then? For nothing? Or for forgiveness of sins and to defeat the power of Death (Satan's power, sin). If your sins no longer exist, how can they be held against you?

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Wrong side of heaven - read Luke.
Lake of Fire - read Revelations.

I'd just as soon believe Mother Goose.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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What sin did the unjustly divorced women commit that she could possible ask forgiveness for?

Does it go like this?:

  1. man divorces wife

  2. she remarries

  3. has sex

  4. asks for forgiveness for having sex while being divorced

  5. she is no longer divorced

  6. ???

  7. profit

That's ridiculous. :P

Or is it more like:

  1. man divorces wife

  2. she asks for forgiveness for getting married in the future

  3. she remarries

  4. has sex

  5. it's not a sin because she already asked for forgiveness

  6. ???

  7. profit

If it's this one, then I apologize in advance for all my future sins. Now I'm free to do anything I want, and I'm all golden.

Or simply is nothing we do sinful any more since Jesus already died?

By the way, note that when Jesus rescued the adulterer from getting stoned by a crowd, he told her to "Go and sin no more." He didn't say, "Congrats, whore, you can now have all the sex you want because I just forgave you for the last time you were sinning!" She was told to stop what she was doing; not that she was free to continue on sinning because Jesus had forgiven her.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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By the way, note that when Jesus rescued the adulterer from getting stoned by a crowd, he told her to "Go and sin no more." He didn't say, "Congrats, whore, you can now have all the sex you want because I just forgave you for the last time you were sinning!" She was told to stop what she was doing; not that she was free to continue on sinning because Jesus had forgiven her.

That's the point women typically miss..

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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  • 1) Man divorces wife unjustly

  • 2) Woman is still married to man because the divorce was not just in the eyes of God.

  • 3) Woman repents to God, asking to be released from unjust marriage

  • 4) God sees that she has done no wrong and forgives her and allows her to remarry

  • 5) Woman is free to remarry

Or simply is nothing we do sinful any more since Jesus already died?

Of course not, but that doesn't undo the power of repentance and forgiveness.

I highly doubt that God will pre-forgive anyone.

Matthew Leverton said:

By the way, note that when Jesus rescued the adulterer from getting stoned by a crowd, he told her to "Go and sin no more."

As he was right to do so. Would it make sense to tell her to commit more adultery?

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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That's ridiculous.

Of course it is. That's formalized religion for you. Leave logic out of it, it has nothing to do with anything.

Someone once tried to talk some sense into people, but it backfired badly.

---
Me make music: Triofobie
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"We need Tobias and his awesome trombone, too." - Johan Halmén

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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3) Woman repents to God, asking to be released from unjust marriage

Repents for what? She hasn't sinned by getting divorced. You are inventing this notion of being released from an "unjust" marriage. Why proclaim something to be immoral (getting remarried) if one can preemptively ask for forgiveness? It'd be less paperwork to just not call it immoral to begin with.

But that's all I have to say on this topic. Feel free to have the final word, and know in advance that I will be humored with whatever it is. 8-)

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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Feel free to have the final word, and know in advance that I will be humored with whatever it is.

^ ++

---
Me make music: Triofobie
---
"We need Tobias and his awesome trombone, too." - Johan Halmén



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