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8.8 Earthquake in Japan
OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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gnolam said:

(BTW, for some reason, people nevery worry about the tons of toxic ash that coal plants produce...)

All any other toxic waste that comes from photovoltaic panel production. Even the panels themselves create serious hazard for the environment when they'll be about to be disposed.

Not to mention energy saving light bulbs. EU has forbid mercury based thermometer sales, but energy saving light bulbs are ok, eventhough they contain mercury and about a dozen other toxic materials... >:(

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Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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decepto said:

Are there any political parties in Europe that are pro nuclear power?

A whole bunch of them. If they call themselves "liberal", then they are likely pro-nuclear. If they call themselves "christ-something" or "conservative", then chances are they're also pro-nuclear, but more likely to bend with the current public opinion.

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type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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gnolam said:

(BTW, for some reason, people nevery worry about the tons of toxic ash that coal plants produce...)

Roads?

However, nuclear waste isn't of a decent problem too.. Well it's somewhat costly, but doesn't imply a serious problem for us, except for the expenditures. AFAIK: The idea is that due to the decay, even after graving all the wastes we would produce during the duration of them becoming no longer radioactive- we won't occupy any significant square on the planetary scale.

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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From the BBC again:

Quote:

2152: AFP is reporting a new fire at the number four reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.

2153: Flames are rising from the reactor, AP reports.

... not good.

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Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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I find the energy debate hilarious. Where I'm from we have air conditioners. People drive their dinosaur juice machines to the corner store. Buildings leave their lights on 24/7 by law. We smother our entire country in street lights. It is so obvious what needs to happen. We need to choose who is allowed to use energy and who is not, and unfortunately the only option is to raise prices to levels that cannot be afforded.. and that's much better than doing nothing about it. These things are luxuries. They're modern, but they are still luxuries.

The problem isn't that we're not capable of generating enough energy. The problem is that we live in a competitive society where people disagree because it's the most enjoyable thing to do with their time. People are so incredibly wasteful with the energy they do produce. I mean, get real. Most of them sit and watch TV stuffing their face with garbage food, drive everywhere... It's disgusting. There isn't an energy problem, there's a society problem.

Gnolam's absolutely right. Billions of humans need to stop existing. Start with the fattest ones... government problems everywhere.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Derezo said:

Gnolam's absolutely right. Billions of humans need to stop existing. Start with the fattest ones.

I thought we were starting with the Japanese. ???

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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The earthquake was an act of the omnipotent god. He hates Japanese people.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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I thought we were starting with the Japanese. ???

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of prohibiting the sale of fast food. Then they would just starve to death... or maybe lose enough weight to get rid of their air conditioners. You eat an elephant (Or.. a dinosaur) one bite at a time.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

miran
Member #2,407
June 2002

Quote:

From the BBC again: [www.bbc.co.uk]
Quote:

2152: AFP is reporting a new fire at the number four reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.

2153: Flames are rising from the reactor, AP reports.

... not good.

Why do you keep following BBC (and/or other media)? Flames rising from the reactor? WTF does that mean? Do they even know what a reactor is?

Anyway, the second fire in unit #4 was caused by an oil leak on a pump that was pumping sea water into the spent fuel pit of unit #4. The fire was burning for 140 minutes, then went out by itself. It's not clear if the pump in question still works or not though, but I would guess not.

There's also more trouble at unit #3. White smoke is rising from the reactor building which indicates the containment vessel is probably damaged. This means both #2 and #3 containments are damaged. The reactor vessels are still OK of course.

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GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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You seem to know what you talk about, Miran, (as opposed to me ^^) so what is really going on there ?

Is there really a chance of melting ? And if so, what would be the consequences ? As big as Tchernobyl ?

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type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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Chernobyl*

It's supposed to not let the radiation out, even in case of melting. But we already see it doesn't look like the case.. Perhaps they're still able to seal it to prevent further contamination, but I am somehow getting doubts regarding it.

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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So, the real fear are only radioactive clouds that could be generated by the melting of a reactor ?

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miran
Member #2,407
June 2002

Is there really a chance of melting?

Yes. Maybe some of the cores partially melted. The latest report said the water level in rector #2 was 1.7m below the top of fuel elements before they pumped sea water in. This means over a third of the fuel in reactor #2 was without cooling for some time which means it's possible it melted. But we probably won't know for sure for quite a long time. When the last similar accident happened in America in 1979 (TMI), they didn't know the core melted until 4 or 5 years later when they were first able to visually inspect the reactor.

Quote:

And if so, what would be the consequences? As big as Tchernobil?

No. The consequences will be bigger than TMI though.

type568 said:

It's supposed to not let the radiation out, even in case of melting.

That's not true. It's supposed to not let the melted fuel out, but some radiation still gets out through steam that needs to be vented to reduce pressure. There are special valves just for this purpose. And because the fuel elements have been damaged, the steam is contaminated with radioactive fission products, thus radiation gets out. Also it seems that #2 and #3 containments have been damaged so the contaminated steam is escaping into the environment uncontrollably from units 2 and 3.

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type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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Did the fuel get out in Chernobyl?

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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type568 said:

Did the fuel get out in Chernobyl?

It did, but because of the steam explosion that took away top part of the reactor vessel and blasted a hole into the reactor building. Mind you there was no containment around that particular RBMK.

Three Miles Island, as Miran was referring to, was a different architecture - PWR. Fukushima I has similar design called BWR, both are build with a containment building and such explosion that occurred in Chernobyl is virtually impossible.

The only problem could be possible reactor vessel breach due to the core meltdown, because apparently the containments have taken some damage from the hydrogen explosions.

Which brings me to a question for miran: shouldn't there be hydrogen-oxygen recombinators to prevent such event?

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type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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Alright, no Chernobyl even in perspective is somewhat good.
Thanks.

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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miran said:

Why do you keep following BBC (and/or other media)? Flames rising from the reactor? WTF does that mean? Do they even know what a reactor is?

Because I know that they're journalists who get every technical detail wrong, and I can usually figure out what they really mean. ;)
(The alternative is "no news")

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miran
Member #2,407
June 2002

OICW said:

Which brings me to a question for miran: shouldn't there be hydrogen-oxygen recombinators to prevent such event?

Yes, but they can't handle such huge amounts of hydrogen at once, so it had to be vented out.

gnolam said:

The alternative is "no news".

That and official reports: http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/index.php

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gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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Oh hey, you can watch NHK online as well: http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/index.html

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OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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miran said:

Yes, but they can't handle such huge amounts of hydrogen at once, so it had to be vented out.

I wouldn't call deflagration "a venting out", though I understand that the pressure needs to be lowered. So I assume there was much more hydrogen than the recombinator systems could handle and that lead to the explosions.

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gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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miran said:

Why do you keep following BBC

... also, for the hilarious typos: ;D

Quote:

The pant has suffered several explosions, triggering radiation leaks.

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Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

Maybe it wasn't a typo.

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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Wired seems to have an uncharacteristically informative article about the danger of radiation leaks and their causes.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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If by "informative" you mean "full of errors". The worst of which is this one:

Quote:

Without water things can heat up quickly — both the temperature and the rate of fission within the reactor core

The latter decreases without water.



[EDIT]
... but yeah, Miran has a point. This article is apparently aiming for a new world record in unfounded speculation:

Quote:

Or, did technicians at some point take water from the pond for use in reactor 4's cooling system?

Sure... they could have done that. Because it's so necessary to cool an empty reactor. It hasn't had any fuel in it since 2010-11-30!

IAEA said:

Unit 4 was shut down for a routine, planned maintenance outage on 30 November 2010. After the outage, all fuel from the reactor was transferred to the spent fuel pool.

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type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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WSJ.com said:

Japanese police said the death toll increased to 4,164 from the massive earthquake and tsunami that shortly followed and the number of missing rose to 7,843 as of Wednesday 0900 GMT.

First report I saw was 36..



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