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8.8 Earthquake in Japan
Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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gnolam said:

And naturally, the knee-jerk mouth breathers are out in full force.

Some random on the internet said:

The Japanese are scamming us! I just checked Japan on Google Streetview and everything was fine!"

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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gnolam said:

Building 100 coal plants is not an option.

The choice doesn't have to between coal and nuclear.
For starters:

  • building a wind park (or even a single generator) in the Netherlands requires about 100 official permissions, and for every single one, there is at least one interest group that can file a complaint and delay the procedure

  • although it is possible to build energy neutral homes (that is, homes that produce as much energy as they consume under normal use) at lower total cost of ownership than conventional homes, even in the Netherlands, the overwhelming majority of homes built today is not energy neutral

Also, three more arguments against nuclear (fission) power, apart from the fact that it's pretty damn stupid to build a nuclear reactor on a tectonic plate fault, and disregarding the general safety controversy (which basically boils down to "nuclear energy is safe" - "no it's not" - "is too" - "is not" ...):

  • fissionable materials are scarce, even more so than fossile fuels; if we were to use nuclear power for all our energy needs, we'd probably run out of fissionables long before fossile resources are depleted

  • fissionable materials are found in politically questionable countries; it's bad enough to depend on the oil nations, but depending on Russia and corrupt African leaders is not a nice thing

  • even if we used all the available production capacity for building nuclear plants, we could maybe double the capacity over the next 30 years - but since we're now at about 5% nuclear (unless I remember wrong), that would get us to 10%, still leaving the other 90% unaccounted for.

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gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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The choice doesn't have to between coal and nuclear.

It pretty much is. :P
You mention wind power. The world's largest wind farm (Roscoe) produces 781.5 MW (and I can't even find if that's average or peak, so I'm going to be a cynic and assume the latter) and covers 400 km2. 782 MW is less than a single reactor. :P
Hydro? Already at capacity.
Photovoltaic just isn't an option for large-scale power generation. You mentioned the scarcity of fissile materials? That's nothing compared to the scarcity of the exotic (and, BTW, usually incredibly toxic) elements PV cells rely on. We're running out of those right now.
Solar thermal, OTOH, is a real option - if you're at a low enough latitude.
Biofuels? Again, not an option for large-scale power generation. You just can't produce enough (and, aside from when you're just using waste products, it's actually worse for the environment than burning fossil fuels).

And most of these suffer from the usual problem with renewables: huge fluctuations in output coupled with the inability to adjust production according to demand.

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Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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So basically, all our options have incredible flaws. What exactly does this mean?

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gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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That there are a couple of billion too many of us. :P

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Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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It's the top 20% that cause the problem. How about we get rid of them... us... oh dammit...

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GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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Bye guys ...

push the red button

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type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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So basically, all our options have incredible flaws. What exactly does this mean?

The tragedy will come.

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

gnolam said:

That there are a couple of billion too many of us.

All governments should adopt that 1-child-max policy China is said to have had at one point. Within 100 years or so we should manage to have only about 1 billion people left (at which point the policy could be changed to allow 2 children again). Probably 100 million would be a more sane number than 1 billion given the size of the planet but can think about that then. It would solve virtually all environmental and energy problems and nobody needs to be killed along the way...

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type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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Elias said:

All governments should adopt that 1-child-max policy China is said to have had at one point. Within 100 years or so we should manage to have only about 1 billion people left (at which point the policy could be changed to allow 2 children again). Probably 100 million would be a more sane number than 1 billion given the size of the planet but can think about that then. It would solve virtually all environmental and energy problems and nobody needs to be killed along the way...

Russia wouldn't agree. Although it's what it virtually has anyways. Countries who's ambitions don't match their population will be "offended", we're yet to mature up to be able to take these decisions.

Jonatan Hedborg
Member #4,886
July 2004
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gnolam said:

And most of these suffer from the usual problem with renewables: huge fluctuations in output coupled with the inability to adjust production according to demand.

Shouldn't it be possible to store energy from the peak production in giant flywheels (or something), to even it out and have a "reserve"? (assuming you have a surplus on average).

Trent Gamblin
Member #261
April 2000
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gnolam said:

And naturally, the knee-jerk mouth breathers are out in full force.

Please stop using that term. It makes you look incredibly stupid.

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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gnolam said:

Let's hope that guy doesn't get put in charge of transport. Then we'll have to stop flying after the first plane crashes. :P

You were faster than me. By the way Austrian greeners (or how to call them) are getting quite nervous and from what I've heard they want some kind of testing on all plants. I guess we together with Germans are going to be their first target :-/ Anyway I don't think they'll be able to find an non-nuclear option for the Europe for upcoming, let's say, 30 years, so I wouldn't be worried that much. On the other hand, we're talking about bureaucrats from Bruxells...

fissionable materials are found in politically questionable countries; it's bad enough to depend on the oil nations, but depending on Russia and corrupt African leaders is not a nice thing

If I'm not terribly mistaken we still have uranium deposits. In the past it has been mined and transported into then Soviet Union for refinement. All it needs is to persuade the government and people[1] to renew mining operations.

References

  1. And probably get rid of a green party, which in my opinion does more harm than good

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Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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Shouldn't it be possible to store energy from the peak production in giant fly-wheels (or something), to even it out and have a "reserve"? (assuming you have a surplus on average).

Already being done, though not through this exact mechanism. What you need is a mountain and two lakes at different altitudes. You build a pipe that connects them, and a power plant that can act both as a generator and a pump. When there's excess energy in the network, it pumps water from the lower lake into the upper lake, acting as an electrical pump. When the energy is needed again, the flow is reversed, and the pump now acts as a turbine and the motor as a generator. This is, to my knowledge, the most efficient way to store large quantities of energy; the best part is that it doesn't matter how long you store it - the water levels won't change much by themselves, unlike other storage mechanisms which generally lose energy over time. The downside is that it's pretty hard to find suitable locations for such a thing.

Elias said:

All governments should adopt that 1-child-max policy China is said to have had at one point. Within 100 years or so we should manage to have only about 1 billion people left (at which point the policy could be changed to allow 2 children again). Probably 100 million would be a more sane number than 1 billion given the size of the planet but can think about that then. It would solve virtually all environmental and energy problems and nobody needs to be killed along the way...

This would lead to negative population growth, and the fact that we keep getting older, combined with the way our economy works, is a recipe for disaster. Best case, overall population goes down worldwide, negative population growth is compensated for in the rich countries through immigration and gets worse in the poor countries; we end up with the same number of people that now is the top 20%, still consuming 80% of the planet's resources, while the rest (now 80%) is reduced in numbers, but this never solves more than 20% of the problem. Worst case, the compensation does not happen, economies collapse under the weight of retired people and the lack of young adults to fill the gaps, anarchy, chaos, apocalypse etc.

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gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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Shouldn't it be possible to store energy from the peak production in giant flywheels (or something), to even it out and have a "reserve"? (assuming you have a surplus on average).

It's a problem of scale: you'll need to store several MWh. AFAIK, the only tried and tested really large-scale energy storage method is pumped-storage hydro. Which has the same problems regular hydro power has...
[EDIT] Which is what Tobias described.

OICW said:

By the way Austrian greeners (or how to call them) are getting quite nervous and from what I've heard they want some kind of testing on all plants.

That I can actually get behind, as it's rational. By all means: inspect the plants. Correct technical flaws. Heck, replace a bunch of the plants altogether - there have been a lot of safety and efficiency developments since the '60s, which is when a vast percentage of them were designed or even built.
Going "ZOMG!!!ONE we have to shut down all nuclear power plants and give up the technology for good!", OTOH, is idiotic. :P

Quote:

On the other hand, we're talking about bureaucrats from Bruxells.

It wouldn't surprise me to see them first outlaw nuclear power altogether, and then outlaw atoms. The EU just can't surprise me in bureaucracy, corruption or stupidity anymore. :P

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decepto
Member #7,102
April 2006
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Are there any political parties in Europe that are pro nuclear power?

--------------------------------------------------
Boom!

Neil Black
Member #7,867
October 2006
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The murder-and-puppy-kicking party. :P

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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gnolam said:

That I can actually get behind, as it's rational. By all means: inspect the plants. Correct technical flaws. Heck, replace a bunch of the plants altogether - there have been a lot of safety and efficiency developments since the '60s, which is when a vast percentage of them were designed or even built.
Going "ZOMG!!!ONE we have to shut down all nuclear power plants and give up the technology for good!", OTOH, is idiotic. :P

Well yes, it's rational. I for one am for inspections, but judging from the past attitudes towards our two nuclear power plants from the Austrians, I bet they are just looking for whatever reasons to increase their lobby for shutting them down.

By the way, I've just heard that Germans have shutted down all 7 of their oldest plants (well, ok some of them are really old and should be replaced), the sad part is that they are currently revisiting again their nuclear strategy.

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jhuuskon
Member #302
April 2000
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decepto said:

Are there any political parties in Europe that are pro nuclear power?

These guys do, and these guys too.

You don't deserve my sig.

Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

gnolam said:

You mention wind power. The world's largest wind farm (Roscoe) produces 781.5 MW (and I can't even find if that's average or peak, so I'm going to be a cynic and assume the latter) and covers 400 km2. 782 MW is less than a single reactor. :P

Is there any reason it should be centralised like that? Who needs 1000+ MW at one place anyway?

The problem is that the energy that is produced by wind/solar power is actually not used most of the time. Because the nuclear and coal plants are very slow to shut down / power up, instead of using wind power when there's wind and shutting down the coal/nuclear plant, the wind power remains unused in a lot of cases.
So a combination of nuclear/coal power and wind/solar energy is not a good idea. The best option would be to combine wind/solar energy with Combined Cycle Plants using natural gas, which are highly efficient AND are quick in powering up / shutting down.
Wind and solar power can only be expanded reasonably when there are less nuclear and coal plants.

gnolam said:

That there are a couple of billion too many of us. :P

Only if implying our current lifestyle, which is horribly inefficient in terms of energy. Only think of all the megawatts wasted for devices in stand by mode...

Still, what to do with the nuclear waste?

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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Let's send it to SouthAfrica !

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OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Polybios said:

Still, what to do with the nuclear waste?

Bury it underground?

Polybios said:

Is there any reason it should be centralised like that? Who needs 1000+ MW at one place anyway?

Is there any reason why 1000MW should cover so insanely large areas. Not to mention zero output when there's no wind or light? I prefer to have electricity up all day. Not only on windy/sunny days :P

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Polybios
Member #12,293
October 2010

OICW said:

Is there any reason why 1000MW should cover so insanely large areas. Not to mention zero output when there's no wind or light? I prefer to have electricity up all day. Not only on windy/sunny days :P

Of course, when you combine larger areas, there's probably enough electricity on average most of the time. And for the case there isn't, I already mentioned Combined Cycle Plants using natural gas.
Wind is highly predictable, which facilitates distribution/regulation.

As to advantages:
Zero pollution? Zero CO²? No risk of potentially rendering quite some square miles of land uninhabitable for centuries?

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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It's not like all the land that windmill farms use is wasted. Around here they are built on corn fields; the yield doesn't drop significantly.

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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Polybios said:

Is there any reason it should be centralised like that? Who needs 1000+ MW at one place anyway?

You can't place them just anywhere (wind conditions, environmental concerns, human health concerns, etc). My main point was to point out just how awful wind power is in terms of W/m2.
(It's fairly dubious in other aspects as well, such as cost, reliability and even CO2 break-even point)

Quote:

Because the nuclear and coal plants are very slow to shut down / power up, instead of using wind power when there's wind and shutting down the coal/nuclear plant, the wind power remains unused in a lot of cases.

... what? Adjusting the power output according to demand is where (non-solar) thermal plants excel!
Yes, if you shut down a plant completely, it'll take ages to get it back up. But if you can shut it down... then you have so much excess capacity that it's irrelevant for the discussion.

Quote:

Still, what to do with the nuclear waste?

Mine it. Breed it. Then burn it.
(BTW, for some reason, people nevery worry about the tons of toxic ash that coal plants produce...)

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