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2053
Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Does this frighten anyone else?

http://www.ctbto.org/specials/1945-1998-by-isao-hashimoto/

Its a animation of the various nuclear bomb uses from 1945 through 1998.

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Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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We live in a truly unique time. Never before have we had the power to destroy or save every life on Earth. Yet petty disputes, ideologies, and misunderstandings still drive so many of the decisions humans make.

While watching this video, I heard some drunk idiots yelling obscenities at one another outside my apartment.

It's a wonder we've made it this far. If we can make it another 100 years, then we will most likely have survived the curve, and will live until the end of the universe.

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weapon_S
Member #7,859
October 2006
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Our planet survived over 2000 nuclear explosions and you're still worried ?!
Entertaining video by the way. I also like the recap at the end.

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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What Mark said. And what Spiderman's dad uncle said: With a huge power come huge responsibilities.

PS: Edited for correction

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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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weapon_S said:

Our planet survived over 2000 nuclear explosions and you're still worried ?!

I think I chose the wrong word. I'm more horrified than frightened. Though the fact that North Korea, Israel, Palestine, and Iran all have their own frightens me a little.

Everyone knows what the weapons can do, and yet some still think its a good idea to continue testing and stockpiling the darn things.

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"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
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GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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Thomas, you should have been frightened a little bit more when G.W. Busch was in charge.

He was as crazy as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. ;D

Now for who have it and who don't, let's imagine the opposite: Israel, Iran, Palestine having nuclear bombs, but not France nor Canada, nor USA. What do you think would happen ? Heh, we would make some research to have our nuclear beast.

The real problem is not having the bombs. Using them IS the problem.

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type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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Just one test before the Nagasaki? They damn rushed! :o
P.S: Thanks, cool.

Append:

weapon_S said:

Our planet survived over 2000 nuclear explosions and you're still worried ?!
Entertaining video by the way. I also like the recap at the end.

If all of'em occurred at once, it'd make more trouble. Furthermore, vast majority of these tests are tiny yield tests, a lot smaller than even current tactical anti-ship warheads & torpedoes. They also targeted non-urban areas, and didn't cause massive fires. Any of the two "top" operators have at least x100 of the total yield tested.

Ooh, and.. It's a pity they don't also mark their yield in this animation, and the total yield counter or something.

Also need music, though that one I'll fix for myself now. :p

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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type568 said:

They damn rushed!

There was a war on, you know...

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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There was a war on, you know..

;D

Duh. And most likely I know about it a lot-lot more than you think :P

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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type568 said:

Just one test before the Nagasaki? They damn rushed! :o

Unless you don't count Hiroshima as a test, then yeah. On the other hand Fatman used implosion design while Trinity and Little boy were gun assembly designs, so Nagasaki was a test on its own - yes cynical as it sounds :-/

Does this frighten anyone else?

Not much. 2053 nuclear devices detonated over the course of 50 years, that's quite sad, but not frightening. On the other hand we know exactly what it can do ergo there's high chance that nobody sane will ever use them. What frightens me a bit is Israel having a considerable arsenal and various unstable middle-eastern countries trying to obtain them.

By the way I really recommend British film Threads. Anyway, we're still here after 65 years of nuclear weapons usage and that's something to say about people around the world.

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type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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OICW said:

Unless you don't count Hiroshima as a test, then yeah.

Both were tests at some point.. Although I confused the order, I always do :(
If U.S. wanted to avoid this disaster they could've waited for the Japanese reaction to Soviet assault on Manchuria, which began just in between two of these bombings. Though this Truman guy, only Bush J. was worse -.-
& there's a justification that he wasn't elected :P

Append:

Quote:

Not much. 2053 nuclear devices detonated over the course of 50 years, that's quite sad, but not frightening.

Also that one, & the fact there were just few constant locations for these tests.. Not various cities :D

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Well in his defense, if he wouldn't use those two bombs many more people would die, because Japanesee imperial army was really dedicated to fight till the last breath. These losses would include soldiers on both sides and civilians. Much more than died in those two cities. And at least the world got to know what those weapons are capable of.

No doubt that it was a disaster, but it ended the war by breaking Japanesee morale. And those two cities gave us a warning. Without it I dare to say that we could have seen nuclear weapons usage during the Cold war. And mind you there were at least two occasions where we were really close to limited/all out exchange of nukes.

One was during the notorious Cuban missile crisis. And the other, which was probably more serious, but isn't that well known was around 1985. At that time there was large combat training of NATO forces going on in the West Germany. The whole event was planned to last four days. It ended suddenly during the day two if I remember correctly. At that time whole western army group of Warszaw pact military forces was on high alert and SS-20 missiles were positioned into attack positions in the woods along whole East Germany - Soviets were really nervous and thought that the exercise is a cover up for attack.

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Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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It's a wonder we've made it this far. If we can make it another 100 years, then we will most likely have survived the curve, and will live until the end of the universe.

Definitely not. Mankind would have to be able to leave the solar system and find a new habitat before the sun blows up. That's a horribly difficult thing to do, considering we only barely made it to the moon.
Also, should we blow ourselves up using nuclear weapons or whatever, some bacteria or fungus or cockroach or whatever might actually somehow survive the thing and keep the ball rolling. It's our own species we should worry about.

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spellcaster
Member #1,493
September 2001
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[quote]And what Spiderman's dad said: With a huge power come huge responsibilities.[/quote]
Uncle. It was Spiderman's uncle.

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gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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I think I chose the wrong word. I'm more horrified than frightened. Though the fact that North Korea, Israel, Palestine, and Iran all have their own frightens me a little.

Err. Of the ones you listed, only Israel and North Korea actually have any nukes. And the latter don't even need them - they have Seoul within artillery range.

OICW said:

By the way I really recommend British film Threads.

Seconded. Also: The War Game and The Day After.

OICW said:

And mind you there were at least two occasions where we were really close to limited/all out exchange of nukes.

One was during the notorious Cuban missile crisis. And the other, which was probably more serious, but isn't that well known was around 1985. At that time there was large combat training of NATO forces going on in the West Germany.

IMO, the Oko incident was even scarier...

Anyway. Neat video, even if the sound got distorted at times. :)

[EDIT]
... and now I have the urge to play DefCon.

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OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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gnolam said:

IMO, the Oko incident was even scarier...

Ooops, didn't know about that. That sure sounds scary.

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GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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spellcaster: Hell, now I remember. I am sorry & I fixed it.

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type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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We live in a truly unique time.

The most unique in it, is the fact that vast majority of FB & LJ(& others) users are still alive, mind you.

OICW said:

Well in his defense, if he wouldn't use those two bombs many more people would die, because Japanesee imperial army was really dedicated to fight till the last breath. These losses would include soldiers on both sides and civilians. Much more than died in those two cities. And at least the world got to know what those weapons are capable of.

Well, it hard to say.. Yes & no. The fashioned "end-of-world-war" taught in the U.S. schools, is the one stated above, however..

OICW said:

By the way I really recommend British film Threads.

Quote:

Seconded. Also: The War Game [secure.wikimedia.org] and The Day After [www.imdb.com].

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;D

Quote:

IMO, the Oko incident [secure.wikimedia.org] was even scarier...

Quote:

On September 26, 1983, Stanislav Petrov, a lieutenant colonel in the Soviet Air Defence Forces, was the officer on duty at the Serpukhov-15 bunker near Moscow which housed the command center of the Soviet early warning system, code-named Oko.[5] Petrov's responsibilities included observing the satellite early warning network and notifying his superiors of any impending nuclear missile attack against the Soviet Union. If notification was received from the early warning systems that inbound missiles had been detected, the Soviet Union's strategy was an immediate nuclear counter-attack against the United States (launch on warning), specified in the doctrine of mutual assured destruction.[1]
Shortly after midnight, the bunker's computers reported that an intercontinental ballistic missile was heading toward the Soviet Union from the US.[6] Petrov considered the detection a computer error, since a United States first-strike nuclear attack would be likely to involve hundreds of simultaneous missile launches in order to disable any Soviet means for a counterattack. Furthermore, the satellite system's reliability had been questioned in the past.[7] Petrov dismissed the warning as a false alarm, though accounts of the event differ as to whether he notified his superiors[1] or not[6] after he concluded that the computer detections were false and that no missile had been launched. Later, the computers identified four additional missiles in the air, all directed towards the Soviet Union. Petrov again suspected that the computer system was malfunctioning, despite having no other source of information to confirm his suspicions. The Soviet Union's land radar was incapable of detecting missiles beyond the horizon,[7] and waiting for it to positively identify the threat would limit the Soviet Union's response time to minutes.

& they gave his Peace Nobel prize to Obama, for sending extra troops to Afghanistan :D

gnolam said:

... and now I have the urge to play DefCon [www.introversion.co.uk].

Fun game, pity.. It's very unrealistic. Although I love the fact, that overall it's war between continents, yet Russia is a separate one :D

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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gnolam said:

... and now I have the urge to play DefCon.

Don't tell me...

Edit:
type568: just a little warning, I'm not really oversensitive and there's a lot I can take, but Threads maybe the first film after which I was feeling sick (that's why I recommend it).

By the way, I know about combat operations going on in the Manchuria. The WWII has several ends. May the 8th in the Europe, then the August in the Pacific theater and then when the Great patriotic war officialy ended (well I guess it was the same date as in the European front was closed). Anyway you can always say that Manchuria was just a police action, just like the Korea... :-/

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type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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OICW said:

type568: just a little warning, I'm not really oversensitive and there's a lot I can take, but Threads maybe the first film after which I was feeling sick (that's why I recommend it).

Sure.. Thanks.

Quote:

By the way, I know about combat operations going on in the Manchuria. The WWII has several ends. May the 8th in the Europe, then the August in the Pacific theater and then when the Great patriotic war officialy ended (well I guess it was the same date as in the European front was closed). Anyway you can always say that Manchuria was just a police action, just like the Korea...

Anyone can say anything. Overall the World War 2, has ended with the Japanese surrender on whatever that Warship name was, European theater is European theater, it has ended earlier. However, the strategic damage of that war, was a lot greater than of the bombings, the territory, the prisoners of war taken, the fact USSR is no longer neutral, etc'..

We really don't have the tools if Japan would or would not surrender if not one of these factors(assault & bombings).

Furthermore(wiki):

Quote:

The rapid defeat of Japan's Kwantung Army was a significant factor in the Japanese surrender and the termination of World War II.[1][2][5][6]

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Um, reading throught the Oko incident I got to Able Archer 83 NATO exercise. I think this is what was mentioning above. Funny as the memories decay, but probably they've got it slightly wrong in the documentary I saw some time ago.

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Albin Engström
Member #8,110
December 2006
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OICW said:

Well in his defense, if he wouldn't use those two bombs many more people would die, because Japanesee imperial army was really dedicated to fight till the last breath. These losses would include soldiers on both sides and civilians. Much more than died in those two cities. And at least the world got to know what those weapons are capable of.

Why does americans always defend the nukes with that statement?

They also like to add that their government didn't know the effects of the bombs, which makes them look like idiots since there was a test before they dropped the nukes and I'm pretty sure even a child could analyze the result and realize the effect if they where to drop it on a fucking city.

The idea that the American government was fair in dropping the second nuke can be discussed, but the fact that the Japanese government didn't realize what had happened for a long time and that the American government's plan was to drop as many nukes as possible until japan surrendered without waiting for respone only makes me think they just wanted to show of their power and crush the japanese.

The fact that the effects of the bombings were censored(oops, I meant classified) for both the american and japanese people proves(to me) that they themself didn't think their actions were as noble as they claim them to be.

There's nothing wrong about being selfish in war, killing a lot of innocent japanese people is totally ok(sort of..) if it has some purpose like saving money or making you look powerfull, what's not ok is acting like you're a fantastic country that saved the world and always thinks about everyone else. :-/

My government is a joke but at least they don't try to make themselves look good.

Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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gnolam said:

Of the ones you listed, only Israel and North Korea actually have any nukes.

Iran is going to have them very soon, I don't think there's any doubt about that.
Additionally, there's nothing to worry about Israel (allegedly) having nuclear weapons as long as none of its enemies have them, since Israel will obviously not use its nukes against anyone aside from its nearby enemies, in which case you have to worry only if there's any form of retaliation against the world by another country that has been nuked by Israel (which either way will only use nukes in a "Samson's Option" case, so as long as Israel isn't being destroyed there's no problem.)

Personally, I find the whole subject to be a little distressing but unavoidable due to human nature (and political state of the world), so it's not like there's much choice here.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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There's nothing wrong about being selfish in war, killing a lot of innocent japanese people is totally ok(sort of..) if it has some purpose like saving money or making you look powerfull, what's not ok is acting like you're a fantastic country that saved the world and always thinks about everyone else.

Ya.. I do agree with the bombings, at least with the first one but the justifications are kind of joke. The Japanese didn't consider anyone but themselves humans, and believed for some reason that half the globe belongs to them.. 40kt makes some good tools to persuade them being wrong, in my eyes..

Append:

Iran is going to have them very soon, I don't think there's any doubt about that.

This summer Iran will be bombed.

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Ablin: and how did you came to the conclusion I came from the United States of America? I don't specially like them, the truth is there are certain elements in the USA that really piss me off. However in my opinion the fate of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was one of the factors we've made it this far without being reduced to cinder.

See most of the safety precautions etc. were adopted after some disaster has happened (look at the air transportation as an example). Without (and that's my opinion) Hiroshima and Nagasaki all expectations about nuclear weapons would be theorethical i.e. everybody would know that it could level the whole city to dust, but wouldn't know how horrible sideeffects it has - it was a kind of memento mori.

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