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Raves
Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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yes, and that means party goers don't do any of them at parties.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

jhuuskon
Member #302
April 2000
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Allright. You're saying LSD and psilocybin don't happen? However, i still question wheter partygoers shoot amphetamine or metamphetamine. Sounds a bit too rock bottom for casual users.

You don't deserve my sig.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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I take it you are talking about 20-30-year-old "adults" here?

I would define "adult" as being old enough to understand that actions have consequences beyond ones own self.

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Ecstasy, which to my knowledge happens to be one of the more popular rave drugs, can have a fatal outcome from a single user dosage, depending on whether or not the subject is disposed towards the lethal effect of the drugs or not.

The same can be said for most anaesthetics, a good number of prescription medications, shellfish, peanuts, etc. MDMA is no more inherantly toxic than most compounds we consume in our daily lives. I certain wouldn't recommend people take it daily, or even weekly for extended peiods of time, but as an occasionally used substance, the risk of harm is minor (if, as you said, it is taken sensibly) and anyone who does probably has some underlying psychological problems they need sorting out.

Also, in most fatal cases involving MDMA, the concentration of the drug in the bloodstream were anbormally high; well above the level expected from people taking the drug recreationally.

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It also disturbs the water balance and heat regulation of the body, so unless the user drinks the correct amount of water during the effect of the drug, chances are high he will dehydrate. And, since your sweating is greatly reduced due to the effect of the drug, chances are equally as high for water poisoning.

Yes. The first aid tents at our parties mostly treat people for dehydration. For anyone with common sense, this will be the worst they face, since if they're not experienced enough to recognise the symptoms coming over them themselves (and the drug doesn't make you out of it enough to not be able to notice the signs if you know what to look for), they will be with at least one sober person who CAN recognise these symptoms.

Anyone who doesn't take sensible precautions with drugs is an idiot, just like someone who doesnt take sensible precautions with firearms, or with motor vehicles. These idiots are the ones you read about in the paper, and who bring down a bad image on everyone else. Similarly you don't read about all the thousands of sensible drivers in the paper, you read about the hoon who had a 150Km/hr head-on-collision while dragging with his mates, or you read about the gun owner who leaves a loaded handgun in a draw within reach of the toddler who manages to shoot themself in the head.

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Hah! You're telling me Speed, Meth and Pot aren't "particularly" addictive? I laugh at you.

Pot isn't particularly habit-forming, as many studies have shown. Amphetamines (speed, meth, P, etc.) certainly are. In fact they're very addictive, but they're not common party-drugs around here. I was referring to LSD (acid), MDMA (extacy) and THC (pot).

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Yes, and thats THE ONLY form of "dependence" of course, why didn't I realize that?!!

Psychological dependance is not so cut-and-dried however. It isn't the drug, per se, that the dependence is based on, but the "escape" from reality. Take the drugs away, and the person will turn to gambling, or some other from of mental addiction unless the underlying reason for their need to escape is met. Blaming the drug for this is like blaming the gun for a murder.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

they're not common party-drugs around here

I obviously don't know much about parties, but they ARE common drugs (with teens and young adults), pretty much anywhere these days, and are pretty disastrous to your health. Have you seen what a person looks like after a couple years of CrystalMeth use? They age about 20 years.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Quote:

I obviously don't know much about parties, but they ARE common drugs (with teens and young adults), pretty much anywhere these days, and are pretty disastrous to your health.

I certainly wouldn't disagree with that at all. However I was discussing party drugs, which is why I neglected to mention the big nasties like amphetamines and opiates. These are certainly present at raves (moreso amphetamines than opiates), but take a back seat to the hallucinogens.

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Have you seen what a person looks like after a couple years of CrystalMeth use? They age about 20 years.

When I was 18, and failing to come to terms with living with AD (I didn't know I had it), I went for the "big escape". I spent a good deal of time homeless (by choice), moving from one group of druggies to the next. I watched a lot of friends succumb to their vices over the years. Some died, or killed themselves, some quite literally went insane. So yes, it's fair to say I've seen the results of meth use (though, the worst off were the junkies).

Incidentally, of those of us still around (we're in our 30s now), about half of us still take drugs recreationally.

Oh, and I was (as I assume you were) referring to heavy use. I've known people who have been taking meth for decades (once, maybe twice a year), with no noticable effects.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Except that its still killing them, just slower.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Billybob
Member #3,136
January 2003

Quote:

Except that its still killing them, just slower.

Well according to the wiki, MDMA has not been conclusively shown to cause brain damage. Extra high doses for prolonged periods of time in rats causes serious damage due to increased free radical damage in the brain. This, however, is with "extra high doses", "prolonged periods of time" and in rats. The experiments were designed to study these effects specifically and therefore do not speak to the potential for these effects in normal, controlled use in humans. i.e. it is unknown if these values scale down as you suggest. You can't assume that it's "killing them slower" at lower dosages. It could just as easily have no ill-effects at all.

FMC
Member #4,431
March 2004
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Quote:

Except that its still killing them, just slower.

Yes, and you are dying in this same moment of age... ::)

[FMC Studios] - [Caries Field] - [Ctris] - [Pman] - [Chess for allegroites]
Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will, like them, only entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful will easily break through them. -Anacharsis
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. -Mark Twain

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

Yes, and you are dying in this same moment of age...

You do realize things like that stack right? One day brings you one day closer to death, and one dose of some poisonous drug brings you another (at least) day closer to death.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Quote:

and one dose of some poisonous drug brings you another (at least) day closer to death.

Now you make me laugh!

You don't lose "X" ammount of time everytime you take a toxic substance. You simply increase the chance of something bad happening. And we're talking minute increases when the drug use is light.

FMC
Member #4,431
March 2004
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Quote:

You do realize things like that stack right? One day brings you one day closer to death, and one dose of some poisonous drug brings you another (at least) day closer to death.

Yes, but guess what, not everyone thinks that living up to a 100 years is good per se.
Life is a continuous sequence of choices which have repercussions, as long as you're aware of the consequences there really is nothing bad you can do.
Some people like to gamble, they know the risk but nontheless they do it.
Some people like getting high with alcohol every once in a while, they know the risks but decide that the dubious -0.001% to life can be bargained for the experience.
Who are you to judge what is good for them? Maybe it's you being a bit too closed minded?

[edit]
And, philosophical babble aside, i believe this to be quite correct:

wiki on Paracelsus said:

Contributions to toxicology

Paracelsus, sometimes called the "father" of toxicology, wrote:
"The dose makes the poison." (A popular short version.)

The original quote is:
German: Alle Ding' sind Gift und nichts ohn' Gift; allein die Dosis macht, das ein Ding kein Gift ist.
"All things are poison and nothing is without poison, only the dose makes a thing be poison."

In other words, the amount of a substance a person is exposed to is as important as the nature of the substance. For example, small doses of aspirin can be beneficial to a person, but at very high doses, this common medicine can be deadly. In some individuals, even at very low doses, aspirin may be deadly.

[FMC Studios] - [Caries Field] - [Ctris] - [Pman] - [Chess for allegroites]
Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will, like them, only entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful will easily break through them. -Anacharsis
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. -Mark Twain

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

And we're talking minute increases when the drug use is light.

Prove it :)

Light doses of a little drug called aspartame WILL slowly kill you. Even gives you brain cancer. It actually breaks down into its component elements, one of which is methanol. I dare you, consume a little methanol everyday, and see how it goes :)

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Life is a continuous sequence of choices which have repercussions, as long as you're aware of the consequences there really is nothing bad you can do.

Really. Ok. I'll buy that, if they have realized that many of their choices is akin to suicide.

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You don't lose "X" ammount of time everytime you take a toxic substance. You simply increase the chance of something bad happening. And we're talking minute increases when the drug use is light.

Twas pure simplification. Do a little each day, and yeah, it'll shorten your life enough to notice.

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All things are poison and nothing is without poison, only the dose makes a thing be poison.

Water is poisionous as well at high enough doses (not that anyone can physically consume that much...). Its all the same. Some are just LOTS worse than others.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Quote:

Light doses of a little drug called aspartame WILL slowly kill you. Even gives you brain cancer. It actually breaks down into its component elements, one of which is methanol. I dare you, consume a little methanol everyday, and see how it goes

When I said the drug, I meant the drug we were discussing - which was meth - not any drug.

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Prove it

They've been studying the effects of amphetamines for decades. The neurotoxic effects have only been shown in high dosages (and that was in rodent tests). You're actually more likely to die inderectly through the drug use - lack of concentration can cause accidents, as can sleep deprivation.

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Do a little each day, and yeah, it'll shorten your life enough to notice.

Doing meth every day isn't light drug use.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

Doing meth every day isn't light drug use.

Then you shouldn't do it :P Ok, I can see the parallels with alcohol, I happen to occasionally have a couple drinks now and then. But still, its nothing compared to "hard" drugs.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Quote:

Then you shouldn't do it

Well, I haven't taken meth at that high a frequency for almost 10 years. ;)

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But still, its nothing compared to "hard" drugs.

It isn't the hard-drug use that is the problem so much as hard drug-use. And that inludes alcohol.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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IMO, even a couple uses of Heroin or Meth is 10x or more worse than a couple Alcohol binges :P

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Quote:

IMO, even a couple uses of Heroin or Meth is 10x or more worse than a couple Alcohol binges

Your opinion is duly noted doctor.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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For one, its the whole stigma. And two, its a little (usually quite a bit) easier to OD on the harder stuff. Maybe I don't like the odds? ;)

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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Quote:

For one, its the whole stigma. And two, its a little (usually quite a bit) easier to OD on the harder stuff. Maybe I don't like the odds?

I Can't deny that. Though there are ways of greatly reducing the chance of ODing.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Not using something so potent would be one ;) I prefer Sugar personally.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

FMC
Member #4,431
March 2004
avatar

I like chocolate

[FMC Studios] - [Caries Field] - [Ctris] - [Pman] - [Chess for allegroites]
Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will, like them, only entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful will easily break through them. -Anacharsis
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. -Mark Twain

axilmar
Member #1,204
April 2001

I think that wanting to get high to have a good time means society needs fixing.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Or put another way, If you need a harmful substance to feel good, something is very wrong :P

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

FMC
Member #4,431
March 2004
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Quote:

I think that wanting to get high to have a good time means society needs fixing.

Sorry, but this shows your poor knowledge on the argument: firstly not all of those you call drugs make you high, and secondly most of the times the "drug" isn't used per se, but as social lubricant (pot), to experience new things and expand the mind (psychedelic drugs), or simply to have the stamina to dance all night in a rave... not much different than when normal people take 8 coffees a day, meditate or drink alcohol. But coffee and alcohol aren't considered that much evil :P

[FMC Studios] - [Caries Field] - [Ctris] - [Pman] - [Chess for allegroites]
Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will, like them, only entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful will easily break through them. -Anacharsis
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. -Mark Twain

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
avatar

Don't argue with druggies. They never are addicted. They can stop whenever they want. It doesn't harm them. They are in total control. Everyone should do drugs, it makes us stronger people.

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