Two simple questions.

How do you find raves?
Do they usually let people under 21 in (over 18, of course)?

Danke.

$topic .= " are stupid.";

That depends on how you define a raveparty.
The "commercial" raveparties with the big DJ's most have homepages where you can order tickets and get directions to the place. AFAIK, most of them have some sort of age check, likely when you order the ticket and perhaps at the gate.

Then there are THE raveparties where ravers arrange it all, for those, you need to know other .. umm... ravers. The ones I've been to they charged at most 5 bux, and sometimes when they do raves outdoors, its completely free.
I've seen little kids run about on these so I doubt they check your age .. Thats kinda scary though because there are dimwits there who use and sell drugs, could end up in some kiddo's mouth

ps. Raves are not stupid.

Raves are pretty much outlawed here, for many reasons. You can't even find many "clubs". They don't stay in business very long, as theres strict laws enforcing whats ok, and whats not, thus noone likes going to legal ones. And the illegal ones are cracked down on.

IMO, yuh. All they leave you with is drugs, crime and noise.

edit:
define: "clubs", the clubs that try to emulate or host raves. Normal dance/bar type clubs are around, just no big ones with room for tons of people.

Beethoven gives me headache, its noise and I bet if I dig deep enough, it has made some wives kill their husbands for listening to the crap.

[ninja]
Oh, Ninjas love raves. No, not those silly dance-parties, where you wear clumsy flurescent lights and shake to over-powering bass while sampling every known drug. I'm talking about Ninja Raves, or Ninjaves as we call them. There, you where uranium arm bands that if you keep on too long will cause cancer, so you got to make sure you're at the top of your game. And then there's, and this part is great I tell you, weapon-swap, where everybody gets on the main stage and throws their favorite weapons into the middle, followed by all the lights turning out. Then everybody scrambles to pick up a weapon, but who knows what you're going to get! It's really quite the riot. One time, this guy picked up a post-it note. I mean, what are you suppose to do with a post-it note? Remind yourself that your dead? Although, don't get me wrong, the guy who does use those post-it notes is deadly. You do not want to get into an office with that guy...
[/ninja]

ixilom, I never said Dance music was noise. I happen to like a lot of electronica, just that when you play ANYTHING loud enough, its just noise. Even the small clubs play music so loud you can't hear yourself think. Not to mention all the screaming idiots, half of them high on one illicit substance or another.

I haven't been able to find any since my time machine broke and I was no longer able to travel back to 1991! Seriously though, the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 gives police the power to break up raves, and prevent people planning or travelling to raves starting in section 63. It's been amended to be even more dictatorial than the one you see there, but you get the gist. I was gutted when it came in because sounds wholly or predominantly characterised by the emission of a succession of repetitive beats was my favourite kind of music!

Ah, I didn't know you were a hip hop enthusiast

I follow the directions on the fliers.

Finding them isnt a problem for me, since I have several friends who are the main driving force behind the most sucessful local dance party production company (yes, raves are 100% legal here, provided you don't break any health and safety regulations). I usually help out with the setup and site construction for the outdoor parties (I usually avoid the indoor ones). Most of the parties are $20-$40l, but there's a free rave this weekend.

You can try looking for local content at WorldDJ. All local raves and gigs here are advertised on the site. Other places you might want to check out are music stores, "alternative" cafes and clothing stores that stock dancewear. If you have places that sell drug paraphenalia and giftware, they might also know details of upcoming events.

Our outdoor parties are all-ages. Most indoor parties, which are held in clubs with a liquor licence, are R18.

Sounds like you have the wrong kind of raves near you. Yes, drugs are usually a big part of the rave culture, but so? The only drug we ban from our parties is alcohol, and they've been running for 10 years now without any problems. Compare this to what I see every weekend working as a barman, and you'd welcome the drugs.

The only time crime becomes a problem, in my experience, is in the small indoor raves they have in the city centre, and these are because you get just anybody coming in. This is where outdoor raves truly shine. The extra hassle and cost of them generally ensures that the only people who go are people who are going to have a good time and enjoy themself, and not just cause trouble.

Noise is again, really a problem with indoor parties. At outdoor parties you can just move further away if its too noisy for you. This is a problem with all indoor venues though, no matter what music they are playing.

I'm sure im not the only one who finds that rather disturbing.

At first I thought you meant the birds, but then I remembered that those were called ravens!

I don't need drugs to dance.

And what, exactly, about it disturbs you?

That young people deliberately destroy their lives with toxins they know are extremely dangerous to both their mental and physical health? Not to mention the social side effects an addiction may cause, such as anxiety, economic problems due to the high cost of the given stimuli, an elevated level of aggression and generally degenerating behaviour?

Fair enough, I can understand people being disturbed by children on drugs, but I was thinking about adults, not children. And "extremely dangerous" is an exaggeration.

Addiction to anything is a problem, but the matter at hand was NOT addiction, it was drug-taking. Party drugs aren't particularly addictive anyway.

Oh LennyLen, we knew you well. You'll never be able to argue your way out of this one.

Too bad I don't have any raver friends Guess I'll have to search around for those indy music shops.

Oh really?

I have more on the subject, but it'll have to wait until I get home from work.

I take it you are talking about 20-30-year-old "adults" here? I would consider them young people. Not that age plays a significant role in this matter anyhow.

That depends, of course, on what drug you are talking about. I agree that many drugs would not have a fatal effect when taken in sensible doses. Ecstasy, which to my knowledge happens to be one of the more popular rave drugs, can have a fatal outcome from a single user dosage, depending on whether or not the subject is disposed towards the lethal effect of the drugs or not. It also disturbs the water balance and heat regulation of the body, so unless the user drinks the correct amount of water during the effect of the drug, chances are high he will dehydrate. And, since your sweating is greatly reduced due to the effect of the drug, chances are equally as high for water poisoning.

I take it you're talking about Ecstasy. While the research of the sheer addictive property of the substance has yielded varying results, I would like to point out that there are several reports of a hallucinational disorder as a result of exposure to the drug.

In Michigan, the drinking age is 21. Might want to check that in your area if you go someplace that legally serves alcohol.

Hah! You're telling me Speed, Meth and Pot aren't "particularly" addictive? I laugh at you.

They're not. In fact, none of the drugs you listed create a physical dependence.

Yes, and thats THE ONLY form of "dependence" of course, why didn't I realize that?!!

Actually Speed, Meth and Pot are all addictive. Albeit pot is less addictive than, say, tobacco, but that's beside the point isn't it?

(Sourced from WikiPedia)

However, they're not what you would call party drugs. None of them are hallucinogenic.

yes, and that means party goers don't do any of them at parties.

Allright. You're saying LSD and psilocybin don't happen? However, i still question wheter partygoers shoot amphetamine or metamphetamine. Sounds a bit too rock bottom for casual users.

I would define "adult" as being old enough to understand that actions have consequences beyond ones own self.

The same can be said for most anaesthetics, a good number of prescription medications, shellfish, peanuts, etc. MDMA is no more inherantly toxic than most compounds we consume in our daily lives. I certain wouldn't recommend people take it daily, or even weekly for extended peiods of time, but as an occasionally used substance, the risk of harm is minor (if, as you said, it is taken sensibly) and anyone who does probably has some underlying psychological problems they need sorting out.

Also, in most fatal cases involving MDMA, the concentration of the drug in the bloodstream were anbormally high; well above the level expected from people taking the drug recreationally.

Yes. The first aid tents at our parties mostly treat people for dehydration. For anyone with common sense, this will be the worst they face, since if they're not experienced enough to recognise the symptoms coming over them themselves (and the drug doesn't make you out of it enough to not be able to notice the signs if you know what to look for), they will be with at least one sober person who CAN recognise these symptoms.

Anyone who doesn't take sensible precautions with drugs is an idiot, just like someone who doesnt take sensible precautions with firearms, or with motor vehicles. These idiots are the ones you read about in the paper, and who bring down a bad image on everyone else. Similarly you don't read about all the thousands of sensible drivers in the paper, you read about the hoon who had a 150Km/hr head-on-collision while dragging with his mates, or you read about the gun owner who leaves a loaded handgun in a draw within reach of the toddler who manages to shoot themself in the head.

Pot isn't particularly habit-forming, as many studies have shown. Amphetamines (speed, meth, P, etc.) certainly are. In fact they're very addictive, but they're not common party-drugs around here. I was referring to LSD (acid), MDMA (extacy) and THC (pot).

Psychological dependance is not so cut-and-dried however. It isn't the drug, per se, that the dependence is based on, but the "escape" from reality. Take the drugs away, and the person will turn to gambling, or some other from of mental addiction unless the underlying reason for their need to escape is met. Blaming the drug for this is like blaming the gun for a murder.

I obviously don't know much about parties, but they ARE common drugs (with teens and young adults), pretty much anywhere these days, and are pretty disastrous to your health. Have you seen what a person looks like after a couple years of CrystalMeth use? They age about 20 years.

I certainly wouldn't disagree with that at all. However I was discussing party drugs, which is why I neglected to mention the big nasties like amphetamines and opiates. These are certainly present at raves (moreso amphetamines than opiates), but take a back seat to the hallucinogens.

When I was 18, and failing to come to terms with living with AD (I didn't know I had it), I went for the "big escape". I spent a good deal of time homeless (by choice), moving from one group of druggies to the next. I watched a lot of friends succumb to their vices over the years. Some died, or killed themselves, some quite literally went insane. So yes, it's fair to say I've seen the results of meth use (though, the worst off were the junkies).

Incidentally, of those of us still around (we're in our 30s now), about half of us still take drugs recreationally.

Oh, and I was (as I assume you were) referring to heavy use. I've known people who have been taking meth for decades (once, maybe twice a year), with no noticable effects.

Except that its still killing them, just slower.

Well according to the wiki, MDMA has not been conclusively shown to cause brain damage. Extra high doses for prolonged periods of time in rats causes serious damage due to increased free radical damage in the brain. This, however, is with "extra high doses", "prolonged periods of time" and in rats. The experiments were designed to study these effects specifically and therefore do not speak to the potential for these effects in normal, controlled use in humans. i.e. it is unknown if these values scale down as you suggest. You can't assume that it's "killing them slower" at lower dosages. It could just as easily have no ill-effects at all.

Yes, and you are dying in this same moment of age...

You do realize things like that stack right? One day brings you one day closer to death, and one dose of some poisonous drug brings you another (at least) day closer to death.

Now you make me laugh!

You don't lose "X" ammount of time everytime you take a toxic substance. You simply increase the chance of something bad happening. And we're talking minute increases when the drug use is light.

Yes, but guess what, not everyone thinks that living up to a 100 years is good per se.
Life is a continuous sequence of choices which have repercussions, as long as you're aware of the consequences there really is nothing bad you can do.
Some people like to gamble, they know the risk but nontheless they do it.
Some people like getting high with alcohol every once in a while, they know the risks but decide that the dubious -0.001% to life can be bargained for the experience.
Who are you to judge what is good for them? Maybe it's you being a bit too closed minded?

[edit]
And, philosophical babble aside, i believe this to be quite correct:

Prove it

Light doses of a little drug called aspartame WILL slowly kill you. Even gives you brain cancer. It actually breaks down into its component elements, one of which is methanol. I dare you, consume a little methanol everyday, and see how it goes

Really. Ok. I'll buy that, if they have realized that many of their choices is akin to suicide.

Twas pure simplification. Do a little each day, and yeah, it'll shorten your life enough to notice.

Water is poisionous as well at high enough doses (not that anyone can physically consume that much...). Its all the same. Some are just LOTS worse than others.

When I said the drug, I meant the drug we were discussing - which was meth - not any drug.

They've been studying the effects of amphetamines for decades. The neurotoxic effects have only been shown in high dosages (and that was in rodent tests). You're actually more likely to die inderectly through the drug use - lack of concentration can cause accidents, as can sleep deprivation.

Doing meth every day isn't light drug use.

Then you shouldn't do it Ok, I can see the parallels with alcohol, I happen to occasionally have a couple drinks now and then. But still, its nothing compared to "hard" drugs.

Well, I haven't taken meth at that high a frequency for almost 10 years.

It isn't the hard-drug use that is the problem so much as hard drug-use. And that inludes alcohol.

IMO, even a couple uses of Heroin or Meth is 10x or more worse than a couple Alcohol binges

Your opinion is duly noted doctor.

For one, its the whole stigma. And two, its a little (usually quite a bit) easier to OD on the harder stuff. Maybe I don't like the odds?

I Can't deny that. Though there are ways of greatly reducing the chance of ODing.

Not using something so potent would be one I prefer Sugar personally.

I like chocolate

I think that wanting to get high to have a good time means society needs fixing.

Or put another way, If you need a harmful substance to feel good, something is very wrong

Sorry, but this shows your poor knowledge on the argument: firstly not all of those you call drugs make you high, and secondly most of the times the "drug" isn't used per se, but as social lubricant (pot), to experience new things and expand the mind (psychedelic drugs), or simply to have the stamina to dance all night in a rave... not much different than when normal people take 8 coffees a day, meditate or drink alcohol. But coffee and alcohol aren't considered that much evil

Don't argue with druggies. They never are addicted. They can stop whenever they want. It doesn't harm them. They are in total control. Everyone should do drugs, it makes us stronger people.

Don't argue with someone with an addiction.

And so, the gross generalisation award of the day goes to Matthew.

I accept the award with great honor, because I cannot argue with you!

Going for the Ad Hominem award too, are we?

You also neglected to mention earlier that anyone who takes drugs is a deranged homicidal pervert who rapes dogs and eats babies. We also pray to evil gods and bathe in each others bodily fluids.

Druggies are my heroes. I would never attack them!

Ah, but thats not what he was saying

Both things simultaneously, or perhaps one after the other?

Seriously, I say let people take drugs if they want to - as long as they're dangerous only to themselves, it's their choice and their choice only. And rave parties are one place where they're separated from other people, so no harm is done.

Yes, and then the system gets bogged down with all these suicidal druggies. They aren't only harming them selves, but puting too much extra strain on the helth care system.

And wasting all the investment put into them by their parents and the tax payers. People get "free" schooling to grow up, live, and work for the betterment of their family, and country/human-race.

It'd seem that the majority of druggies who attend raves are potheads and those using extacy (with the random speedy guys). Potters are too inert and jolly to be dangerous and MDMA'ers are too empathic to even hurt a fly. Both are as dangerous as a pile of кoтёнoк.

Everyone commits suicide, didn't you know?

Suicide is making a choice to end your life. You know you will die (no one lives forever), so by choosing to live, you're choosing to let yourself get closer to death. The only way to not let yourself live is to get yourself killed. :X

I didn't mean dangerous to each other, but each to his own health or life or whatever .

Well, that's a government policy problem then. And you might want to take a look at how much of your countries health budget goes into fixing alcohol-related matters. Personally, I'm of the opinion that if you take the drug (including alcohol), any related complications are your problem, and yours alone. Prison terms for people who commit crimes while on drugs (again, alcohol included) need to be made harser as well.

What about the millions of people who manage to "waste" their lives without drugs?

Ok, so then they should just be left to rot? Ok. I'll buy that. And after that we can start to drop people with mental illness's as well, and then people with severe injuries.

Same idea, different pile.

Also bad. But were not talking about them are we?

Mental illness and injuries aren't [inherently] self-inflicted.

Put it this way, why should someone be obligated to "be all that they can be" and to better humanity, just because their parents decided to have children, and the goverment decided to invest money in them?

No, but users are still sick. If they want treatment, they should get it. Once anyhow.

They are only obligated if they choose to reap any of the benefits of society. Otherwise, they should immediately kill themselves, or find a nice deserted island somewhere to die on.

I challenge anyone to argue with Thomas now without invoking Godwin. I'm not sure if it's possible anymore!

Hitler was a druggie, which is why he was cool.

gb2/420chan

One could argue that spending your entire life in front of a computer with little or no excercise is far more destructive than partaking in 'social' or 'party' drugs.

We build the intarweb.

/me bows to matthew

Am I gonna have to charge mah lazer?

You just gotta shoop some whoops.

I just wanted to find a free party, now look what happened.

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use the [ pre ] tags luke!

No. It's meant to use a variable width font. Just not this font. Trust me, it looks worse pre'd.

ASCII art with a variable width font? iiwul.

Did you say free party?

How bout a Sexy Party instead?