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My campaign...
HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Quote:

edit: If $140 is a month's salary, you shouldn't be using computers. =P

I can get a fairly decent PC for $50-$100. Heck, there are people who are giving away their "old" P200's for free!

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You must admit that you're exaggerating a bit, though.

Not at all. My own salary is much bigger, of cource. For one month work I can get four XP's but my salary is a bit higher than average in Estonia. Also, Estonia is not the puorest country there is.

[edit]
Btw, does anyone know the average income of the World, or perhaps some groups of countreis like EU, Western World, 3'rd world etc. Especially nice would be to get nuber of people in those countreis too.

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Mr. Big
Member #6,196
September 2005

Jakub, your opinion is similar to mine in many ways, as you can see if you read my first post in this thread.

[EDIT]

You're lucky, Hoho.
In my country, a decent computer costs like your monthly salary and a decent development computer costs 5 times your salary.
My current computer used to cost twice your salary about three years ago.
I got it for free, though.

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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You're aware that reverse engineering closed-source drivers is probably illegal, right?

That doesn't seem to stop them with other drivers. For example, the BCM43xx driver (which is still only half complete) came about by a group who decompiled the Windows driver, documented what it did, then another group wrote it for linux based on the documentation.

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On a serious note, you do need to take some care in buying your hardware to make sure that it is supported properly. If you do that, things tend to Just Work.

So you have to research to find good hardware that is ALSO Linux compatible? I'm sorry, but if Linux wants to be a viable desktop equivalent to Windows, it should be supporting all the hardware Windows does.

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Well, I personally like the fall-back option of editing a configuration file by hand when I can't do it through a dialog box or things don't work. In Windows I just get to click 'ok' in the dialog box telling me something doesn't work.

Personally, I've never wished there were config files on Windows. The GUIs normally just work, and if not, there is likely a well known solution just a Google away. On linux you'd have to dig through docs to find out what to change in the config file, ask in a Linux channel, or Google anyway.

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That's really my whole thing. People complain about Linux because things aren't "properly" supported, that they may switch to Linux if it gets better vendor support, etc. But they don't say/realize that it's not supported because they're not using it (not that I fully blame them; you're force-fed Windows from the start, so why bother learning/getting used to another OS just to be able to do most of the same things?). That's like saying "I don't like you because they don't like you, and they don't like you because I don't like you". Circular reasoning doesn't get anyone anywhere, and definitely doesn't improve the situation. If more people who would, would just bite the bullet and use Linux, it will in turn, be better supported. It may be hard and rough at first, but nothing worth-while comes easy.

I see what you're saying, but why should you expect people to use a half-assed setup that doesn't support or utilize their hardware when they can use Windows and it will Just Work?

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Is it really the OS standing in your way? Or uncooperative hardware/software vendors? I gaurantee that if the roles were reversed (Linux had the market share that Windows does, and vice versa) they wouldn't hesitate to do the same to Windows. It's not the OS's fault that vendors don't support it. They only support what users use (and users only want to use what they support; a nicely vicious circle going on there, no?). Somebody needs to break that circle for any change to occur, and vendors generally won't when money is at stake.

And I'm willing to say, even if the roles were reversed, I'd likely still use Windows, just because I'm used to it and it works for me. I prefer Window's way of operations over Linux. Why would you want to switch from something that works to something that you're not used to?

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Being dominated by a single OS is not good for a market to thrive. Competition is essential for innovation and improvements, otherwise you get stagnation (for example, most people still use unaccelerated desktops despite hardware acceleration existing for at least a decade). Windows didn't need it, so no one bothered to work on it.

In who's place? My use of the dominant OS gives me the most software and hardware options, very good support, and generally no problems. While I do agree that competition is good, I can see where Linux competes a tiny bit with Windows. However, in your example, why do we need hardware accelerated desktops? Everybody pisses and moans because Vista has a 3d accelerated desktop system (I am not even sure if I like the idea or not), yet when Linux does it it's the Next Best Thing?

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And there is a benefit for you, as it will encourage fair competition, which will encourage better OSs, which will encourage better hardware to take advante of the improved OSs, etc.. all the while, having prices fall as it will actually be a deciding factor for some people. Unless you don't think better, cheaper OSs, with better, cheaper hardware, isn't something of a gain for you.

I don't care about competition. My system works fine the way I want it to. My OS is already paid for, so I don't care about prices (pricing isnt that bad anyhow). And how will OS competition lead to lower hardware prices?

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I was hired by one company to evaluate the possibility of migrating from MS Office to Star-/OpenOffice. My verdict was "not recommended", and the company stayed with MS Office.

;D

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It can be. If I develop a program using open, cross-platform APIs, then only release a Linux binary, it won't run on Windows, will it? Just like people can develop a program using open, cross-platform APIs, then only release a Windows binary. And please stop yelling, there's no need for it.

Heh, it won't run on most Linux setups either. IMO, that's another major flaw of Linux.

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I would, however, equate it to using platform-specific APIs with cross-platform hardware.

What cross-platform hardware? I don't see any :P

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Btw, does anyone know the average income of the World, or perhaps some groups of countreis like EU, Western World, 3'rd world etc. Especially nice would be to get nuber of people in those countreis too.

Irrelevant. We need the average income of computer users. If somebody is concerned about where they can live or where their next meal is coming from, they have no business even thinking about owning a computer. Nothing against them.. I feel bad for them, but if they own a computer when they can't even eat, that's just ignorant.

Anyhow, a popular argument for Linux (still not valid) is that it has improved a lot over the years. Well, so has Windows.

Marcello
Member #1,860
January 2002
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On a side note, the vista 3d accelerated desktop is really nice. Finally no more glitches with translucent windows/menus/tooltips/shadows/etc. Plus them working with video is a nice touch. Everything just seems to run more consistently.

Marcello

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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I'm still split about wether or not I should upgrade to Vista... I dont know if I should wait until Service Pack 1, if I should just upgrade when it's released, or what. And I'm not sure if I will upgrade anyway, it depends on if it's full of DRM and all that crazy shit everyone (mostly anti-MS zealots) says.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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I think a lot of Linux users don't realize that OS X is more likely to compete with Windows than Linux ever will (at least in nations where people have money). Linux users have this weird idea that most people don't want to pay for stuff that works. They also tend to forget that it almost always takes money to get people to use your product - even if it's free! (Exceptions would be software that helps you steal things and easy-to-install social gadgets.) So saying the main reason to switch to Linux is to provide a competitor for Microsoft is meaningless. If I wanted to be part of some mystical rebel force, I'd align with Apple. At least their stuff works without having to edit crap files.

Linux provides good competition to Microsoft on the server market. I'd rather see Linux continue to improve there. I couldn't care less about a third desktop operating system.

Trent Gamblin
Member #261
April 2000
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I don't mind paying for software. If Linux cost $100 I'd still use it. But it doesn't and most of the software I use doesn't cost a thing either. The only non-free software I have on my Linux partition is Nero, although I hear other people have no problems with k3b/gnometoaster/etc.

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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#include <std_disclaimer>
I didn't read the whole thread

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Too lazy

I second that.

Ok now serious, I already managed to install Ubuntu and get my wireless card running which was the only objection against Linux. Right now I stopped working on my Linux switch, because I decided to wait for a new notebook to come into my hands, which will be hopefully shipped without OS, so I'll begin from a scratch, installing Linux as primary OS and Win2k as secondary for Windows porting and few other things.

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Simon Parzer
Member #3,330
March 2003
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Linux is no office system because you can't run Microsoft Office.
Linux is no gaming system because most commercial games won't work very well.

It is however a stable platform for servers, and it is a great help if you are a non-Windows software developer (e.g. web developer).

In my opinion you shouldn't convince random people about switching to Linux, they will only be disappointed. But you can always show it to people that are disappointed with Windows.. Hackers, friends of the command line (former UNIX or DOS users), ...

To sum it up, saying "tell me reasons to not switch to Linux" is IMO the wrong way. Why should a person that is happy using Microsoft Windows try something new? Most "normal" people I know are using Windows only for surfing the internet and creating MS Office documents (or sometimes for games). They don't need Linux.

OICW
Member #4,069
November 2003
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Simon: I know very large group of people who use Windows and are satisfied with them. They also look at me when I say I'm going to switch on Linux as I'm crazy or something like that.

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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

If $140 is a month's salary, you shouldn't be using computers.

XP Home (Full) costs around $300 here. Not a months salary, but it is half of my monthly living allowance. And believe me, I will NOT run XP Home, Pro sometimes, but never Home.

Theres Linux zealots and Windows zealots, and lazy zealots who don't like change.

I switched because Windows was a pain in the ass to develop on, I DIDN'T have an OS for my new hardware (stupid OEM CD), and I wasn't willing to shell out for 98 when I had another option available.

Use what you want and shut up :)

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Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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XP Prof OEM costs $150. You can just buy a screw with it. It's still a lot of money, but over the course of four years (which is what a computer lasts me), it's not much at all.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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$249.99 (Windows XP Professional Upgrade With Service Pack 2)

$399.99 (Windows XP Professional Edition With Service Pack 2)

Yeah, that looks like $150 to me. You can't buy OEM without a computer (or if you cheat the system, a keyboard or something).

(note, this is in CAD)

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"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
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BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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$176... a little more than the $150 it is in the US but not that much.

And you CAN buy OEM without a computer. I know, for example, newegg just tosses in a random cable or something if you buy OEM.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

And you CAN buy OEM without a computer.

That would be cheating the system.

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"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
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BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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How so? If it was, wouldn't MS have caught on by now and put a halt to it? IMO, it's the smart way to go.

Victor Williams Stafusa da Silva
Member #4,212
January 2004
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I just read the firsts posts, so i'm not sure if someone pointed that or not:

1. There are too much distros, and deciding which one to get is not so simple. Distro A may have a good support for Z but crappy for Y and distro B has a good Y and a crappy Z. And if i decide to get some Distro, if I'm unlucky that one would be discontinued or may become a crappy distro in two or three years. (I may in theory hack the distro to make everything work, but just the linux gurus know how to make this correctly, which of course excludes 99.99% of the mortals.)

2. There are many commercial business-specific database softwares where the designers simply don't care about Linux and writes windows-specific* softwares. These softwares may be too business-specific and complex which makes efforts to porting or rewriting it unpractical. This is due mainly to Delphi, VB, ASP and .NET popularity which are highly non-portable.

O course, #2 may be workaround by windows-emulators. But the main problem is still that stupid half-brained people who think typing in MS Word are too hard and don't know the difference between hardware and software, and even don't want to know. This happens more frequently to people which worked for 20 years in papers and typewriters are forced to use computers.

(* Surprisingly, i still see people using and creating that text-mode DOS applications even today). There are some cobol and dbase programmers which stoped in the time making software for users who don't know how to distinguish software and hardware.

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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

How so? If it was, wouldn't MS have caught on by now and put a halt to it?

Technically the wording in the agreement that MS has put out for OEM coppies allows such things. But it goes against the intention of the agreement. Its the same as not paying. OEM coppies are meant to be delivered with Full PCs, not a cable.

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"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Quote:

Yeah, that looks like $150 to me. You can't buy OEM without a computer (or if you cheat the system, a keyboard or something).

You can buy it with a free screw or a cable. If it were cheating the system, big vendors wouldn't do that. It has to be bought with some hardware, that's all. (But it's really a rabbit trail. If you are looking for a new OS, you are likely at least purchasing a new motherboard [ie, computer].) OEM is non-transferable, unlike retail. That's the big difference. The basic idea is that it lives with the computer it is first installed on. And considering a techie is more likely to upgrade his computer than to replace it, that isn't even a restriction.

$137 @ http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16832116059

Very affordable, especially if you plan on using it for at least four years.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

$137. Very affordable, especially if you plan on using it for at least four years.

Not if you can barely afford the hardware itself, and half of it was a gift.

Quote:

If it were cheating the system, big vendors wouldn't do that.

If it weren't cheating they wouldn't need to sell it with something else. OEM means Original Equipment Manufacturer, like a Beige Box PC company, Its meant to be sold WITH a PC. You're exploiting a loop hole in the OEM agreement, thats all.

Also, Newegg doesn't ship to Canada.

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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Quote:

There are too much distros, and deciding which one to get is not so simple. Distro A may have a good support for Z but crappy for Y and distro B has a good Y and a crappy Z. And if i decide to get some Distro, if I'm unlucky that one would be discontinued or may become a crappy distro in two or three years. (I may in theory hack the distro to make everything work, but just the linux gurus know how to make this correctly, which of course excludes 99.99% of the mortals.)

Most stuff should work on most distros.

Quote:

If it weren't cheating they wouldn't need to sell it with something else. OEM means Original Equipment Manufacturer, like a Beige Box PC company, Its meant to be sold WITH a PC. You're exploiting a loop hole in the OEM agreement, thats all.

If MS cared, they would change the agreement to prohibit that. As ML said, OEM is non-transferable. Plus, IIRC, another major difference with OEM is that it is no longer MS's responsiblity to provide tech support for it.

Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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For the most part, you're just being stubborn. You just don't want to admit it costs half of what you claim it does. :)

I believe the latest license now is that OEM software (when individually sold to an end user) must come with a CPU, case, motherboard, and hard drive, and be pre-installed. I know the original XP OEM license simply stated that it must be sold with "non-peripheral" hardware. I don't know which version currently applies to XP.

But for self-builders, I don't even see this as an issue. It's a silly restriction because one could easily take an existing computer, put an OEM OS on it, and then legally sell it. Who's to say when you upgrade your computer you don't sell it to yourself? So again, the main difference with OEM is that it's tied to the hardware it's installed to.

But regardless of your position on whether or not this "cheats" the system, you can obtain a legal, valid license key for a professional XP OS for less than $150. And that's well worth the cost if you like and use the OS.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Baf said:

If MS cared, they would change the agreement to prohibit that.

Matthew said:

I believe the latest license now is that OEM software (when individually sold to an end user) must come with a CPU, case, motherboard, and hard drive, and be pre-installed.

Quote:

And that's well worth the cost if you like and use the OS.

Well, I neither like, nor use it. so eh.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Carrus85
Member #2,633
August 2002
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Tomasu said:

I switched because Windows was a pain in the ass to develop on

ML said:

But regardless of your position on OEM, you can obtain a legal, valid license key for a professional XP OS for less than $150. And that's well worth the cost if you like and use the OS.

Behold the rub!

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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Quote:

I believe the latest license now is that OEM software (when individually sold to an end user) must come with a CPU, case, motherboard, and hard drive, and be pre-installed.

Does that mean we won't be able to get OEM copies of Vista if we decide to switch?



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