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My campaign...
Matthew Leverton
Supreme Loser
January 1999
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Quote:

Does that mean we won't be able to get OEM copies of Vista if we decide to switch?

I'm sure you'll still be able to because the online distributors aren't the OEM police*. They are selling to system builders (ie, you) who are responsible for upholding the license. (You are the one opening up the shrink-wrap that says "I Agree to the license.") Install the OEM version on a PC. Sell the computer to your mom for 1 penny. Then she can give it back to you. Now you're legal.

* Disclaimer: that is my assumption, because there are huge distributors that Microsoft surely knows about that let you buy OEM stand alone.

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Quote:

Windows' UI has evolved over the years to be the sum total of all (ok 95%) of user's preferences.

I'm not sure that's true. I think it's more that 95% of the users have grown to expect a UI to look and feel as Windows does. It's easy-of-usability through familiarity.

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if Linux wants to be a viable desktop equivalent to Windows, it should be supporting all the hardware Windows does.

It typically does, unless the hardware is so new that there are no drivers for it yet, or so obscure that there is no one to write one.

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I don't mind paying for software. If Linux cost $100 I'd still use it.

Ditto. The reason I only use Open Source software is not that it's free, nor that I can tweak the source (who has ever done that anyway?) The reason is convenience: if I need a piece of software for some task, it's a simple matter of downloading and installing it. Takes a few seconds or a few minutes.

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And you CAN buy OEM without a computer.

Yes, you can. My OEM Windows XP CD (yes, I do own a legal copy of Windows XP) has this nice message printed on it saying 'may only be sold with a new computer' though. Guess what I did not buy it with.

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I think a lot of Linux users don't realize that OS X is more likely to compete with Windows

Oh, quite possible. I actually like OS X fairly well, because I can use it as a more or less normal UNIX system. I understand that's actually one of its strengths: to people used to UNIX systems, it's a UNIX system with a flashy GUI (X11 integration could be better though, if you ask me); to people used to normal desktop systems, it's a desktop system with a UNIX system inside.

Dustin Dettmer
Member #3,935
October 2003
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Now OSX has a UI I really like. My only complaint is that there isnt a apt-get or yum or anything to install open source software with.

There isnt one that you can download for osx is there?

FMC
Member #4,431
March 2004
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The problem fact is that most people simply don't have a reason to switch to linux, take for example the average a.cc surfer:
-he has already payed (or has a pirated copy) of windowsXp installed
-he knows how to use windows efficiently
-security is not an issue, as he is proficient enough (i for example simply use an, updated with latest patches, winxp pro sp2 + antivir and i can't recall the last time i got a virus)

I personally also like to play games, even new games... why on earth should i switch to linux?
I tried, twice with installed distros, and every now and then with knoppix, but all i got was that i had to relearn my way around the os (fight to get things like 3d acceleration working) and around the new programs (which i had to look for), i couldn't play games and didn't gain a thing...

[FMC Studios] - [Caries Field] - [Ctris] - [Pman] - [Chess for allegroites]
Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will, like them, only entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful will easily break through them. -Anacharsis
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. -Mark Twain

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

There isnt one that you can download for osx is there?

Fink maybe?

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Quote:

My only complaint is that there isnt a apt-get or yum or anything to install open source software with.

Install fink. This will let you do 'fink install package' to install source packages, or 'apt-get package' to install binary packages.

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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I'm just fine for security, I run XP pro SP2, windows defender and that's it. No Windows firewall, no software firewall, no antivirus. My Linux Router (another good use for linux) takes care of routing/firewalling/lots of handy features, and common sense is all that's needed to prevent viruses. I've only gotten one in the whole time I've used a computer (and I had the feeling that the program I was running was a virus).

Quote:

I'm not sure that's true. I think it's more that 95% of the users have grown to expect a UI to look and feel as Windows does. It's easy-of-usability through familiarity.

Same can be said about Linux. I find KDE as klunky as you find Windows.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Having a firewall gets rid of MOST of the viruses you can get. Any Firewall. Especially if it isn't susceptible to common exploits.

Half the time people get viruses just after connecting to the internet, without even visiting any pages.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

BAF
Member #2,981
December 2002
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Don't viruses have to be run to get in? I thought it was mostly worms/RPC exploits you got if connected directly w/o firewall... and I don't think worms are considered virii, just malware.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Quote:

I thought it was mostly worms/RPC exploits you got if connected directly w/o firewall...

Viruses, Worms, and Trojans utilize exploits to get in, in the first place.

Quote:

and I don't think worms are considered virii, just malware.

How many worms have virus payloads? ;)

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

kdevil
Member #1,075
March 2001
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Late to the thread as always, I'll just say that I recently stopped dual-booting my computer between XP and Ubuntu, and now exclusively use Ubuntu (while still able to run XP through VMWare for one or two rarely-used but still important programs, and to compile stuff for Windows).

Incidentally, wireless and everything worked right from the start.

-----
"I am the Black Mage! I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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Quote:

I see what you're saying, but why should you expect people to use a half-assed setup that doesn't support or utilize their hardware when they can use Windows and it will Just Work?

I've not had any issue with Linux not "Just Working". The only time I've had to tweak things is when a kernel upgrade broke a driver (for which I just jumped in and fixed it myself, no need to wait for the people who made the driver to fix it), or when I want to do something that would be just as difficult, if not moreso, if not even impossible, on Windows.

Not everyone will see a benefit in that, but I, and others, do.

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I prefer Window's way of operations over Linux. Why would you want to switch from something that works to something that you're not used to?

And as I've said, that's fine. People will prefer Windows' way of operating. I'm most concerned with people who would use/prefer non-Windows, but don't because vendor support is spotty (which is is so because said people aren't using it).

User: "I'd use Linux if my games ran on it."
Game makers: "I'd make games run on Linux if users used it."

Quote:

I don't care about competition. My system works fine the way I want it to. My OS is already paid for, so I don't care about prices (pricing isnt that bad anyhow). And how will OS competition lead to lower hardware prices?

That's a rather short-sighted view. Just because it works fine doesn't mean it can't work better (it's like saying the original Doom multiplayer is fine, so you don't need UT2K4 multiplayer).

And lower hardware prices could be expected, since you'd have OSs competing and taking advantage of newer hardware, which will cause more people to buy new hardware, which will drive down the price of slightly older hardware. Like, with Windows Visa/XGL/etc taking advantage of modern gfx hardware, people will buy modern gfx hardware, which will generally cause prices for gfx hardware to go down.

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What cross-platform hardware? I don't see any :P

What do you think x86 Linux runs on? Dead badgers? :P

Intel, ATi, and nVidia graphics chips work in Windows and Linux (where most game publishers only target the capabilities of the latter two), most standards-conformant audio hardware works.. the two most important things for games do work to the majority of their potential, and there are cross-platform APIs to take advantage of that potential. Even if software vendors themselves don't port games, using cross-platform APIs makes the job much easier for projects like Wine (programs that use OpenGL tend to be much more compatible through Wine than programs that use Direct3D, since they don't need to attempt to wrap a closed API around something else).

--
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will pee on your computer." -- Bruce Graham

Matt Smith
Member #783
November 2000

Quote:

OS X is more likely to compete with Windows than Linux ever will

Except for government use, which represents a huge permanent user base. Several governments have already made it policy to switch to OSS on security grounds, and more are cottoning on to the fact that they should avoid spending public money on private software. Pork barrel disasters like the UK NHS £10bn fiasco will accelerate this trend.

Thomas Harte
Member #33
April 2000
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Quote:

Except for government use, which represents a huge permanent user base.

And besides cost considerations, most if not all have rules against digital cameras in the work place. So that's all Apple laptops and the iMac straight on the barred list.

Quote:

Now OSX has a UI I really like. My only complaint is that there isnt a apt-get or yum or anything to install open source software with.

There isnt one that you can download for osx is there?

I don't know apt-get or yum, but if Fink suggested above isn't for you then check out DarwinPorts. Which I think is the same sort of thing? E.g. to get, build and install vile type sudo port install vile.

nonnus29
Member #2,606
August 2002
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Wow, now that I wasted 20 minutes of my life reading this monstrosity, I have to comment on it:

I tried redhat a couple of years ago, couldn't get my dsl modem to work. Most recently I had embedded linux on my pda which was a fun toy for a few months. Batteries have been dead for quiet sometime now (ie I never use it). Using the little 'pick' keyboard with the shell was.... yeah.

ML summed up my views of linux perfectly. However I've vowed publicly several times to never buy another ms operating system. So it's either linux or os x in my future. I'll probably force feed myself linux for a while and if that doesn't work, shell out for a mac.

Quote:

jhuuskon said:
A new way to market Linux - Blaming people for not switching.

Way to go, zealots. ::)

;D

Archon
Member #4,195
January 2004
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Quote:

User: "I'd use Linux if my games ran on it."
Game makers: "I'd make games run on Linux if users used it."

Everyone's ignoring me but here's an idea... or maybe this?

Rampage
Member #3,035
December 2002
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I don't really know Linux very well, but I think that Windows will have a foot over Linux's throat until its graphics become faster.

Actually, this is apoint I've made in the past. Most users simply don't need the whole X Server functionality. Why not have a simple graphics driver to communicate directly with the kernel? That might make it faster and easier to implement. Then again, maybe such a thing exists already...

-R

m c
Member #5,337
December 2004
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i just rebooted from ubuntu to win xp media centre edition.

I came home from uni only to find that azureus had suddenly decided to quit and that the i had no inet addr (only inet6) and that the network card wouldn't respond etc.

So i had to reboot to windows where the network card lasts for months rather than an hour or so.

The problem with linux so far for me is this:

1) Forcedeth keeps on loading! It is evil, it must be compiled straight into my ubuntu kernel or something, there is no stopping it. nvnet just won't bind to my onboard nvidia gigabit nic. Every time the nic goes down i need to recompile the nvnet kernel module (as that is the fastest way of making things work again. even rebooting isn't enough without it).

2) gij. It's pure evil. Limewire won't run, it pops up a splash screen and freezes (even if i bypass the shell script that chokes on the unssuspected gij java cli message). Azureus was real funky and wouldn't run properly either. It'd get past splashscreen but wouldn't make a widnow, or it would but wouldn't bind to it (ie, blank empty contents).

So i install sun java from their website (i thought that sun had gotten java into repos by now, with that thing on slashdot about their license change. so why the hell does gij get installed when i install the ubuntu SUN JAVA JRE package?), and call it directly and things work a fair bit better. The java in my path is still gij though, i was hoping that the sun auto-installer would fix that for me, but NO, i have to go do it myself....

If gij where alive, i'd stab it in the throat.

(\ /)
(O.o)
(> <)

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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Quote:

Everyone's ignoring me but here's an idea [taoframework.com]... or maybe this [lwjgl.com]?

We're ignoring you because, despite what the Javaites say, in practice all managed languages are still slow as ass.

--
Move to the Democratic People's Republic of Vivendi Universal (formerly known as Sweden) - officially democracy- and privacy-free since 2008-06-18!

Marcello
Member #1,860
January 2002
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Actually, in practice they run fine, and most people use the programs without even realizing it. I find it funny how programmers seem to have a knack for screwing up their computers so these things don't run right. (Or perhaps the real reason is more sinister.)

Marcello

Archon
Member #4,195
January 2004
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Quote:

in practice they run fine

then

Quote:

in practice all managed languages are still slow as ass.

Since you always speak the truth, why don't you show some evidence (with the most recent Java or .NET versions and decently coded programs)?

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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Quote:

Same can be said about Linux. I find KDE as klunky as you find Windows.

Congratulations on getting the point.

Epsi
Member #5,731
April 2005
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Quote:

No, you don't. You want to play that sort of game. There are plenty of alternatives.


You've opened my eyes. Now I don't.
I want to play TuxRacer and SuperTux for the rest of my life.

Quote:

Also, the alternatives are free (as in beer), so even though they're not the same game, they're a lot cheaper. I know, that's a crap argument.

I don't mind paying for quality work. I prefer that than even imaginating playing Counter-Tux: the realistic FPS game, World of Tuxcraft: the new MMORPG with only one race (I'll let you guess wich one) and Tux Quest: the next-gen hack&slash... (I can't see penguins fitting in mythologic Greece though :/ )

Seriously, there is NO open-source alternative to the games I play, that match in quality of gameplay and graphisms.

___________________________________

piccolo: "soon all new 2d alegro games will be better. after i finsh my MMRPG. my game will serve as a code reference. so you can understand and grab code from."
piccolo: "just wait until my invetion comes out its going to take the wii to the next leave of game play. it will run sony and microsoft out of busness if i dont let them use it aswell."

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Funny thing is that all of those listed games have commercial alternatives that work either through Wine or Cedega. Not as good as native versions but they work and mostly rather nicely.

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

Epsi
Member #5,731
April 2005
avatar

Quote:

Funny thing is that all of those listed games have commercial alternatives that work either through Wine or Cedega. Not as good as native versions but they work and mostly rather nicely.

nVidia and ATI driver under Linux ? Those are really hell-on-earth... Maybe the fusion of AMD and ATI will give birth to open-sources driver, but until then you won't match the performance of Windows.
And if on top of that you add emulation of the OS ... :/

___________________________________

piccolo: "soon all new 2d alegro games will be better. after i finsh my MMRPG. my game will serve as a code reference. so you can understand and grab code from."
piccolo: "just wait until my invetion comes out its going to take the wii to the next leave of game play. it will run sony and microsoft out of busness if i dont let them use it aswell."



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