My campaign...
James Stanley

...to get more computer users to switch to Linux. In this thread you can list your reasons for not switching to Linux (or other Open Source operating systems), and I (and hopefully other Linux users) will try to help you. Of course, this thread can also be helpful for people currently using Linux but having trouble with something. Any questions, post 'em here and I'll see what I can do.

Onewing
Quote:

reasons for not switching to Linux

Too lazy.

CursedTyrant

I already have switched (actually, I've both WinXP and Linux) to linux (Debian Etch), but as I posted in some thread, I can't get direct rendering with fglrx working and Allegro is horribly slow (~100-200 FPS in glxgears). That, and I can't get AllegroGL to compile at all.

Trumgottist

Main reason: It doesn't run the programs I want. No point in having an OS if I can't run my programs on it.

Additional reason: Not user-friendly enough. Unless that's changed since I last tried Red Hat. I can't go into specifics, though, since it's been a couple of years.

Michael Faerber
Quote:

Additional reason: Not user-friendly enough. Unless that's changed since I last tried Red Hat. I can't go into specifics, though, since it's been a couple of years.

Umm ... Linux has changed a LOT during the last years ...

miran
Quote:

Main reason: It doesn't run the programs I want. No point in having an OS if I can't run my programs on it.

That was my reason. The truth is that most programs either have suitable equivalents in Linux or run in Wine. Or both. And the more time passes, the more programs have both.

Quote:

Additional reason: Not user-friendly enough. Unless that's changed since I last tried Red Hat. I can't go into specifics, though, since it's been a couple of years.

In the last couple of years a lot has changed. Also when people say Linux is not user-friendly enough, that usually means "I'm so used to the way WindowsXP icons look like and to the WindowsXP start menu layout, that as soon as I see something slightly different, my brain freezes and/or crashes with a blue screen."

kentl

I use Ubuntu Linux 6.06 Dapper and Windows XP Professional in a dual-boot environment. I'll give my issues with the Linux side.

  • The OSS ethernet driver forcedeth 0.40 (the latest version) can't handle an NVidia NForce 4 Ethernet network interface in a dual-boot environment with Windows XP. As XP leaves the NIC in an "unusable state".

  • I'm doing some operative system specific programming using the Win32 API as part of university courses.

  • The clipboard functionality doesn't seem to be standardized in X Windows. Sometimes you mark and copy using middle click. Other times you use the Ctrl+C, Ctrl+X, Ctrl+V method as in Windows. It seems like two systems are in use at the same time, which IMHO is bad.

  • Firefox has better functionality in Windows than in Linux.

  • A lot of different sound systems are in use by different applications. It would be better to have one which is good (ALSA) and used by every application.

  • The graphics card driver from NVidia for Linux is not as good as the one for Windows. The GPU fan is always making lots of noise when I'm using Linux. In Windows it knows when it's needed and wont behave badly.

  • I have yet to find a BitTorrent client which is as good as uTorrent. I think uTorrent is good because it's system friendly and has lot's of features I like. I use it through Wine when I'm in Linux, but it's not perfect and I would prefer a native application. (Don't suggest KTorrent or Azuerus.)

  • When developing J2ME applications/games a lot of the brand specific emulators are Windows only. Which makes developing games for mobile phones harder.

  • The majority of all computer users use some kind of Windows. If I want to develop something used by the broad masses Windows support is necessary. This however doesn't keep me from being platform independent in some situations.

There are also a lot of good things which you get if you use Linux. The above are my main reasons for not having a single-boot system.

MiquelFire
Quote:

That was my reason. The truth is that most programs either have suitable equivalents in Linux or run in Wine. Or both. And the more time passes, the more programs have both.

Wine runs Mac programs? I asked because Trumgottist currently only uses a Mac.

FrankyR

It's never just worked for me and I usually get sick of fighting with it after the first week or so.

About eight months ago I installed Ubuntu on an older machine I had. The cd drive, mouse buttons 3 and 4, internet and printer did not work out of the box. I spent lots of hours over the next few days trying to get these to work, but I never did get the cd drive or internet going before I gave up and installed windows xp. I think the most frustrating part was that all of those things worked on my copy of Knoppix (that I boot from whenever I make a new computer to make sure all the pieces are working), but with my install of Ubuntu, things just decided to not work.

James Stanley

OK,
Onewing: I can't help you.

CursedTyrant: Are you sure fglrx is right for your graphics card? I don't have any experience in this since I use onboard graphics, but I know there are about four drivers just for NVidia and ATI cards. Open source and proprietry ones for each.

Trumgottist: Have you tried wine? And there are better free (as in speech) alternatives to all (read: most) Windows software available. Post it here and I'll name an alternative. It took me about a month to get equivalents for all the software I used on Windows. The only thing I couldn't replace was BlitzBasic, but that was solved when I learnt C++. Linux is very user friendly now. What version of Red Hat were you using? And if you want user friendly, you should probably go with MEPIS or an Ubuntu. Also, just because it's not immediately obvious what to do doesn't mean it's not user friendly. I find editing configuration files is a lot more user friendly than Windows dialogs. For example, configuration files work pretty much the same way for whatever you're trying to configure, so you only have to learn once and all the config files on the system are friendly to the user (you). Whilst with Windows, dialogs are all different. One might have a field in a completely different place to another. One might use a different GUI, or some use tabs and some use Back/Next. That's not user friendly, that's idiot friendly. But most things have a configuration file for the haxxor l33t among us (:P), and a front end for those who can't be bothered.

Michael Faerber: Go you!

Miran: Go you!

Kent Larsson: How is that Linux's problem? If Windows breaks it, Windows can damn well fix it. Also, you could put that in a boot script. I might write one for you if I can be bothered. Soon. Again, the university courses using Win32 APIs aren't Linux's fault, but Wine comes with a source implementation (header files and such) I believe, so you could try that. The copy/paste thing is getting more standardised, and in KDE you can always CTRL-C, CTRL-X, CTRL-V, whatever, EXCEPT when in a terminal, because the terminal steals the keyboard input, so you have to right-click. No it doesn't, please elaborate. I haven't a clue what All-In-One mouse gestures are. The flash plugin isn't Linux's fault, and I already asked somewhere, and they're going to release v9 for Linux. I agree about the sound thing, but there's normally a work around. I also agree that hardware vendors don't support Linux very well, but that just serves to give a greater sense of achievement when you get something to work. There are a million and one BitTorrent clients, I'd suggest Azureus, but you told me not to. I've never tried to program a phone so I can't comment. But that's just the phone vendors laziness mainly. I agree about the Windows user thing, which is why I started this thread to convert everyone :P.

MiquelFire: Macs mostly use PPC so you can't run that anyway :P, there are, however, emulators, but you'd get reduced speed.

FrankyR: When you get bored, just stop for the day. Next day, you'll get back and go a bit further. I find playing around with it, and having to work to get it going is fun, but I could see why people would disagree. I'd just go for a distro like MEPIS or an Ubuntu.

LennyLen
Quote:

The truth is that most programs either have suitable equivalents in Linux or run in Wine

With games being the obvious exception. I can only just barely play some of last year's Windows games (I don't even bother with anything released in the last 6 months, my computer can't handle htem). I'd hate to try and attempt to play them on Wine.

Karadoc ~~

I use Windows for the following reasons:
- Windows runs every program I want to run. I like to play games, and games generally aren't made for Linux. Wine may or may not run what I want to run when I want to run it. I'd rather not have to wrestle with wine to play something that should just run out of the box.
- Using Windows, I don't need to learn about all the weird commands and config files that linux uses. Linux is very flexible, but it's not as easy to make simple changes. For example, in linux it took me a long time to work out how to add a new screen resolution option to the desktop resolution menu so that I could change the resolution. Also, had to do all sorts of weird hack jobs to get sound working properly.
- I already know my way around Windows, so I easily do what I want to do. Linux is good, but it isn't better than Windows*; so I see no reason to put the effort into switching.

(* Here is where you are tempted to say "Yes it is!". I suppose it's a matter of opinion. But I can't think of anything I might want to do on Linux that I can't already do on Windows.)

MiquelFire

Oh yea, I run Gentoo! I'm messing with Fluxbox right now, and let's just say, I need apps on that system to really get any more use out it for now.

Niunio

There are another alternative to Windows and GNU/Linux+wine: ReactOS. I didn't test it yet but I'll do soon.

Epsi

I want to be able to play Counter Strike Source, Titan Quest and the soon-to-arrive NeverWinter Nights 2.

kentl

Now help me James Stanley! ;D

Quote:

There are another alternative to Windows and GNU/Linux+wine.

From what I've heard ReactOS isn't yet an alternative.

Onewing
Kent said:

sudo ifdown eth0 and sudo ifup eth0

It looks like rot.

James Stanley

I've just edited my last post, so I'll redirect some of you there.

LennyLen: I agree that a lot of games don't work in wine, however, recently I've started to find a lot of good 3D games for Linux. Just today I downloaded a FPS (Alien Arena 06 Uranium Edition). The installers for games sometimes tend to be easier than for other software as well.

Karadoc~~: That's only because you only want to run software you've heard of, and you've only heard of software that runs on your Operating System. After being in Linux for a while, I've found that Linux runs more software that I want to run than Windows does. And there tends to be more choice, so you can get exactly what you want. See my answer to LennyLen about the games. It's fun learning about how it works, and how to do stuff. I do agree that sound support is currently shit. But I believe they (the kernel team) are working on that. The 'knowing my way around Windows' is a common excuse, but just because you know how to work Windows, doesn't mean you can't have fun learning Linux. Also Linux and 99.99% of it's software is free (beer and speech), so you never need to spend a penny on software.

MiquelFire: Good for you, I'm currently trying to install Gentoo because I'm building a cluster, unfortunately it will run on wireless, and the Gentoo installation pretty much requires ethernet, but I'll just lug it all downstairs to the router to get my drivers. Fluxbox is cool, I run DSL on my laptop, because it's the only distro that works (P150, 32MB RAM), and I find fluxbox to be the optimal window manager for the hardware. It's not actually the only distro that works, but the CD drive won't read 'dark' disks, and I've started use CD-RWs, so I can't get any new distros on there, so I'm stuck with DSL.

Niunio: ReactOS is cool. I ran it in an emulator once, and it seemed good. Unfortunately it seemed as stable as the Windows it is emulating. They even put in the BSOD.

Epsi: No, you don't. You want to play that sort of game. There are plenty of alternatives. Also, the alternatives are free (as in beer), so even though they're not the same game, they're a lot cheaper. I know, that's a crap argument.

EDIT:
The ubuntu eth0 boot script:

ethup.sh:

echo "Bringing down eth0 because M$ Windoze broke it..."
ifdown eth0
echo "Bringing up eth0 because I just took it down..."
ifup eth0
echo "Networking finished."

Instructions:
Log in as root
Place ethup.sh in /etc/init.d
In a terminal:

cd /etc/init.d
chmod +x ethup.sh
update-rc.d ethup.sh defaults

Try that and see what happens. I haven't tested it, I will soon.

Matthew Leverton

Because Windows is worth the $120 it costs me every four years. I can make that much money in two hours. Because Linux requires much more fooling around* to get things working, it's actually far more expensive for me. Windows does everything I need a desktop OS to do. Sure, it could do some things better, but at the end of the day, I don't need anything else.

  • One example: I have two video cards and three monitors. Under Windows XP, it just works. Under Ubuntu, I get one display and two blanks. Oh yes, I know. I just have to hand edit a config file. Welcome to the modern age of computing!

ReyBrujo

Graphically speaking, Linux is SLOW. That is a huge drawback for Windows users.

Matthew Leverton
Quote:

Graphically speaking, Linux is SLOW. That is a huge drawback for Windows users.

I was going to mention that Linux GUIs seem very unresponsive to me compared to Windows, but I figured I'd be told I just need to spend a few hours compiling my own drivers and tweaking random config files via the help of five different readmes that are all at least three years out of date.

James Stanley

ML: Yeah. Just edit the right files, I don't know off hand, because I've never felt the urge to stick three monitors on my desk (in fact, one barely fits!). If you could be bothered, you could install Linux once. Do all the fooling around, and never need to install it again. If you use a package manager (most distros do), you can use that to update the whole system with just a few commands, you could even put it in your crontab.

ReyBrujo: I disagree. In fact, a lot of 3D CG films are rendered on Linux clusters. If you mean the drivers are slow, then, again, that's not Linux's fault, that's the hardware vendors fault. One of them (NVidia or ATI), said that because graphics drivers are hard to write, open sourcing them wouldn't help. That's just wrong. There are a lot of good programmers in the FOSS world, and I bet if we got the proper source for the driver, some bright spark would come up with 100 ways to make it run faster.

EDIT:
ML: On my Dads machine, he runs Windows, on my machine, I run MEPIS with KDE. My Dads machine has a faster processor, more RAM, and a graphics card (I use onboard), and the menus on right click take seconds to appear. It's just generally slow. I hate using it. KDE does everything instantly.

EDIT2:
This is becoming a full time job. I didn't know so many people needed help.

CursedTyrant
Quote:

CursedTyrant: Are you sure fglrx is right for your graphics card? I don't have any experience in this since I use onboard graphics, but I know there are about four drivers just for NVidia and ATI cards. Open source and proprietry ones for each.

Yes, I downloaded the drivers from ATI's site, and I have a Radeon 9550, which is supported according to the docs. I've tried Mesa, and a few other drivers, nothing seems to work.

Jakub Wasilewski

Well, I have a dual-booting machine with a constantly updated Kubuntu Linux, but I use Windows for almost everything, except testing stuff on Linux ;).

Here is my list:

- random unwanted behaviour - my Kubuntu (updated regularly, as I said) just doesn't like GTK. Almost all applications using it (except, interestingly, GIMP) display text in a 5-pixels high font. I've been to several forums, changed several configuration files hidden in the most interesting places (including font DPI settings, printing settings, some GTK specific files), and still couldn't get it to display the fonts readable. I've got similar problems with setting up sound to work properly everywhere.

- the programs - this is an issue whether you like it or not. I use Corel for all my graphics needs, and I'm very used to it. Before you mention GIMP - have you ever tried to do something REAL in it, like a professional website design? Oh, it doesn't run under Wine.

- unneeded security - I understand why Linux handles users the way it does, and I know it has its uses, but a home desktop is not one of them. I found that sometimes I have to "sudo" games just to let them run in fullscreen, and during the configuration stage I was pretty tired of finding out that I forgot to sudo Kate and it won't allow me to save the config file.

- the looks - I know you can alter almost everything about the looks of KDE. Believe me, I tried and tried, and still it doesn't look right. Everything is just so... I don't know, maybe I am too used to Windows, but I can't get too like how KDE looks. This is the smallest concern, however.

- things that are just unavailable under Linux, period - I like to play games. Very much. I play loads of emulated games and that would work just as fine under Linux, but I still have a select few PC games that won't run on Linux (not now, and probably not ever). The same goes for Flash, and I don't mean the plugin, I mean the authoring tool.

Seriously, I wanted to like Linux, and tried to like it. But it just doesn't feel right. It feels more like if I am fighting the computer to do something than actually doing something, every step of the way.

James Stanley

CursedTyrant: How did you install them? You might need to set them to be used somewhere in a configuration file. Or did they give you instructions?

Jakub Wasilewski: I've never experienced that, but I also haven't experienced an Ubuntu for more than five minutes. The reason for this is that I didn't like it one bit. However, I recommend it to beginners because I've heard that it's easy. I do all my game art in the GIMP. I find it suits my needs perfectly. You have found the script-fu and filter menus haven't you? Also, I think Corel released Corel Draw for Linux, but I'm not sure. I think the security is cool, but I could see why it would get on your nerves. If you like, you can comment out the security section of your kernel :P. I love the way KDE looks. There are so many things you can do to make it look cool. I couldn't use a desktop without it. Though I must admit that I did a lot of fiddling to get it to look nice. Your last argument I could throw right back at you and say Kolf doesn't work on Windows, Kaffeine doesn't work on Windows, Amarok doesn't work on Windows, KMail doesn't work on Windows, Konqueror doesn't work in Windows. Also, at least Linux hackers are trying to get interoperability (wine), on Windows (as was mentioned on LUGRadio episode 55), interoperability means you can use Outlook OR IE to access the exchange mail server. I don't know what to suggest for flash authoring, but this seems like what you're looking for. It was the first on the list in Google, so there are probably better ones.

BAF
Quote:

echo "Bringing down eth0 because M$ Windoze broke it..."

Umm, what? How does Windows break networking in linux?

Quote:

ReyBrujo: I disagree. In fact, a lot of 3D CG films are rendered on Linux clusters. If you mean the drivers are slow, then, again, that's not Linux's fault, that's the hardware vendors fault. One of them (NVidia or ATI), said that because graphics drivers are hard to write, open sourcing them wouldn't help. That's just wrong. There are a lot of good programmers in the FOSS world, and I bet if we got the proper source for the driver, some bright spark would come up with 100 ways to make it run faster.

It takes a cluster to render the films using cpu. :P Drivers being slow IS Linux's fault, there is the possibility of reerse engineering and making drivers worth a crap. Or optimizing the code which helps slow down.

Anyway, I just installed Gentoo w/ KDE, HAL, etc on my laptop, but I don't see me using it for too much. The biggest issue which will prevent me from using it regularly is power support. I have cpufreq and such installed, and it works great, I can get 3 hours out of my battery (I can get a little more on windows), but suspend/hibernate doesn't work, and I'm sick of trying to fix it. Windows suspend/hibernate works out of the box, why can't linux? I recompiled my kernel and modularized all the blacklisted drivers and if I unload them, stop x, etc before trying to hibernate, the kernel crashes. And for suspend, it locks up resuming from it. (using Suspend2 for hibernate, and the hibernate scripts).

CursedTyrant

I've tried many guides, including the one on ATI's support page. The drivers were installed, but direct rendering still didn't work. It said the screen doesn't support direct rendering in glxinfo. fglrxinfo (or whatever) says something about Mesa tough.

When I install the drivers from ATI's site, X doesn't load after running (I get a black screen):

$ aticonfig --initial --resolution=0,1024x768,800x600

MiquelFire

Oh, here's an issue I found with Fluxbox, I can only resize the window from the bottom two corners. Where do I go to allow me to resize from at least the other corners/sides as well? Doesn't appear to be style related, but I haven't had time to fool around with it.

BAF

CursedTyrant: can you use ATI's opengl as root? I know I had to use eselect to set OpenGL to ATi, then change the DRI mode in the xorg.conf file so non-root could use non-mesa.

CursedTyrant

Eselect?

DRI mode's set to 0666, I'm not sure if it shouldn't be 0755.

Thomas Harte
Quote:

In this thread you can list your reasons for not switching to Linux (or other Open Source operating systems), and I (and hopefully other Linux users) will try to help you.

I have no reason to switch, I don't want to switch and I certainly don't feel a positive duty to. I've used various Linuxs over the years (at least RedHat 3.0.3, 5.x, 6.x and a c.2003 Mandrake) and have never been particularly sold. I have subsequently switched to Mac.

My problems are twofold. The first is available software. The second is the maintenance of installed software.

Apps I use "frequently" include iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, Microsoft Word, Xcode and Safari. I am aware of robust freeware alternatives to Safari, Word and probably even iPhoto but have never found anything open source to match the others.

iTunes is far and away the perfect music storage program for me. It lacks the complete turn-off interface of WinAMP and whatever the current WinAMP clone of choice is for the Linux desktop. It also makes syncing with my iPod trivial. I have never bought any tunes from the internet, so I am not tied in by any proprietary file formats or DRM schemes — I just like the software.

iMovie is brilliant. It's the first video editing software I've used in about a decade (the last being Adobe Premier under Windows 3.1, possibly Premier was version 3.0) but it's also fast, easy and intuitive. It integrates flawlessly with iDVD for when I want to burn a disc. I know of no equivalent open source software.

There are plenty of free IDEs, but Xcode is really the best. It is the ultimate justification for the "multiple windows" model of OS X versus the "usually MDI" Windows and most Windows derived Linux models. It links directly to decent maintained and cross linked documentation. The debugger works perfectly and some of the features, like Shark, are very advanced. Shark is a like a real time profiler except that it actually gives you coding advice and breaks things right the way down. I can see, visually, where I'm loosing time due to cache or pipeling stalls and get useful suggestions about areas that would be benefited by vectorisation or different memory alignment, etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that the equivalent "professional" development tools on Windows do similar stuff (the increasingly dusty copy of VC 6.0 I use for Windows development doesn't, but if I will insist on using antiquated software then what can I expect?). But I'm not aware of any Linux software that does. And guess what: Xcode is a free tool, so I don't even have to pay to keep up to date.

Maintenance of installed software is, in my opinion, a major pain under Linux. Stuff throws files wherever it likes and the normal UNIX way of things is to have binaries in one place, data in another, etc, etc. Give me application bundles any day, or at least the Windows de facto standard of giving a separate directory to each program. ZeroInstall sounds lovely, but my computer isn't always on a network.

Quote:

MiquelFire: Macs mostly use PPC so you can't run that anyway , there are, however, emulators, but you'd get reduced speed

27.78% of people voting at Mac Polls already use an Intel as their primary machine. The switch over is likely to be much faster than those of the past (i.e. 68k to PowerPC) because it is being accompanied by a relative sales boom. For example, Apple laptops accounted for 12% of retail sales in the USA for the last reported quarter. That isn't necessarily as impressive as it sounds in terms of the big computer market because businesses buy a lot of computers and don't buy retail, but it's quite a step up for Apple.

MiquelFire

eselect is a Gentoo thing.

James Stanley

BAF:

Quote:

The OSS ethernet driver forcedeth 0.40 (the latest version) can't handle an NVidia NForce 4 Ethernet network interface in a dual-boot environment with Windows XP. As XP leaves the NIC in an "unusable state".

Thus you manually have to do sudo ifdown eth0 and sudo ifup eth0 to get network working after booting. It's annoying.

I agree that Suspend/Resume is crap on Linux, as well. I tend to just shut my lid and let the hardware take care of it! And Windows suspend/resume doesn't work out the box. If you install standard non-OEM Windows XP on that laptop, I am 99% sure that it won't suspend/resume properly. It's because laptops are so specialised, Windows is 'tweaked' to run on it.

CursedTyrant: Were the drivers installed, though, that just looks like it configures them. If they weren't installed properly, the X config file will be broken when it tried to configure drivers it can't find, and will result in a blank screen. Type:
cat /etc/X11/xorg.conf | grep Driver
One of the lines should say something like:
Driver "fglrx"
If that doesn't come up, something's wrong. Obviously, check the others to see what there are. Post the output here if you're not sure.

MiquelFire: That's one of the few faults I can find with Fluxbox, but in Linux you're lucky. You now have two paths which you don't have in Windows:
Install a different Window Manager
Modify the source for the window manager so that it works how you want.
You can install a different shell in Windows, but you're not supposed to.

Thomas Harte: For iTunes, there are plenty of apps out there, amaroK is my favourite. I don't understand what iTunes does, as I've never used it, but I understand that it is a media player and archiver (i.e. can save it to disk and media players), so, yeah, amaroK. Again, I don't know what iPhoto does, but there are plenty of photo displayers, Kuickshow is my favourite. Kino can edit videos. I've never used it, and I gather it's not very good, but there are definitely alternatives. I heard on LUGRadio, a while back, that there is some brilliant video editing software that can burn to DVD based on GStreamer, I'd recommend that, but I don't remember it's name. Why on earth do you want M$ word? OpenOffice.org is brilliant. There are hundreds of code editors in Linux, my favourite four being QT Designer, KDevelop, Kate, and Vim. For Safari, Firefox and Konqueror come to mind. Also, UNIX doesn't (or Linux doesn't, generally) have binaries in one place and data in another. It has symlinks in a bin directory, and binaries and data in the software's directory. Some software has config files in /etc, but mainly only system software (e.g. X, init, etc.). Also, I believe XCode is only free as in beer, not speech, all the editors I mentioned are free as in beer and speech. Maintenance of installed software on most distributions is often as simple as 'emerge -uD newuse world', or 'apt-get update;apt-get upgrade'.

Kikaru

My reason for not switching: I'm used to Windows. And most of the games I like are windows "exclusive." But, I might get a Windows/Linux dual-booting machine for programming. :)

James Stanley

Kikaru: You can just as easily get used to Linux. The games you know you like are windoze only, but there are plenty of FOSS alternatives.

EDIT:
I'm going now, because I'm tired. I didn't expect so many people to need support! So nobody expect any help from me until the morning, at least. Most of Saturday afternoon I will be away, and nearly all of Sunday. Monday I might help people, on Tuesday I am going on holiday until Thursday.

Derezo
  • Linux is not supported by Photoshop and I'm not aware of an alternative.

  • Linux is not supported by Final Fantasy XI.

  • I'm not sure if my ATi Remote Control is supported by linux.

  • I had a very difficult time setting up a cd burning application. They all sucked bad.

  • Steep learning curve if you want a good installation.

  • I've always experienced clunky UI problems on Linux. Delayed responses and things of that nature. I was suggested to use some sort of pre-emptive kernel, but never got around to it.

  • Lack of time.

Linux is great as a server.. but I couldn't see myself sticking with it as a desktop. I don't really like KDE that much and Gnome wasn't any good back when I tried it (many years ago).
Besides, what is wrong with windows? I don't have any problems at all. I need a reason to switch as well, even if all of these reasons not to switch are met.

Most of the programs I use are compatible with linux (firefox/thunderbird, azureus, etc) but for all of the others I would need to find an alternative and hope it is just as good. DVD/CD-ROM emulation software, MSN (miranda and gaim both suck), I also use Utopia Angel which is windows exclusive. Dual booting isn't really worth anything to me because linux doesn't actually improve on anything that I'm doing.

gnolam
The Zealot said:

Your last argument I could throw right back at you and say Kolf doesn't work on Windows, Kaffeine doesn't work on Windows, Amarok doesn't work on Windows, KMail doesn't work on Windows, Konqueror doesn't work in Windows.

Irrelevant. Allow me to quote you in the OP:

James Stanley said:

In this thread you can list your reasons for not switching to Linux (or other Open Source operating systems)

Oh, and spelling Windows "Windoze"? Doesn't help your cause.

kentl

Your script wasn't really any help James Stanley. Still thank you for trying to help. I need to do the commands after a while. From my point of view not being able to handle one state of the hardware (which Windows can handle) is a bug. And there is a reason forcedeth 0.4 is at version 0.4.

You didn't have a solution for any of the other issues either. Saying; that is the hardware vendors fault and that is the application developers fault, isn't exactly any news or any help.

I don't want to use Azuerus as it's bloated. And I don't want to use KTorrent for example as it doesn't support some of the nice features which uTorrent has [Multiple simultaneous downloads, Configurable bandwidth scheduler, Global and per-torrent speed limiting, Quick-resumes interrupted transfers, RSS Downloader, Trackerless support (Mainline DHT)]. The most important one highlighted in bold.

BAF said:

Umm, what? How does Windows break networking in linux?

Check what I wrote in my first post about the issue. :)

ReyBrujo
Quote:

Linux is not supported by Final Fantasy XI

No problem, FFIII is enough for me ;D

Trumgottist
Quote:

Trumgottist: Have you tried wine?

Not recently, no, since I don't use Linux. (Wine for Mac would be nice, though.)

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And there are better free (as in speech) alternatives to all (read: most) Windows software available. Post it here and I'll name an alternative.

Sure, for things like word processing (I like Open Office on Windows - too bad there isn't a native OSX version) and internet. And I use Blender, too. But you won't find me an alternative to Finale (music notation software), which is one of the most important programs I use. Then there's the games.

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Linux is very user friendly now. What version of Red Hat were you using? And if you want user friendly, you should probably go with MEPIS or an Ubuntu.

I don't remember what version it was, but it was the latest available at the time... two or three years ago, I think. It was easy to use out of the box (for the things that worked) but I was lost when going beyond that.

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Also, just because it's not immediately obvious what to do doesn't mean it's not user friendly. I find editing configuration files is a lot more user friendly than Windows dialogs. For example, configuration files work pretty much the same way for whatever you're trying to configure, so you only have to learn once and all the config files on the system are friendly to the user (you). Whilst with Windows, dialogs are all different. One might have a field in a completely different place to another. One might use a different GUI, or some use tabs and some use Back/Next. That's not user friendly, that's idiot friendly. But most things have a configuration file for the haxxor l33t among us (), and a front end for those who can't be bothered.

The differing GUIs sounds more like Linux to me. In Windows and OSX those things are standardized, while the Linux version I tried there were several different configuration tools that almost worked, and did so differently. (I also couldn't find any good docs for the configuration files, but maybe you get that if you buy a distro in a box? I didn't do that, since I was just checking it out because of curiousity.) But as has been noted, that was a while ago, and hopefully things has improved since.

I'm not really against Linux, I only answered the question why I don't (and won't) use it.

LennyLen
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I'm not really against Linux, I only answered the question why I don't (and won't) use it.

As Gnolam has already pointed out, you're dealing with a zealot. If you're not with them, you ARE against them.

kentl
J.S. said:

Also, just because it's not immediately obvious what to do doesn't mean it's not user friendly.

Actually that's pretty much the definition of user friendly. That you should know what to do to achieve what you want.

Yet you haven't helped anyone. I think you've taken water over your head. ;D

BAF
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Eselect?

DRI mode's set to 0666, I'm not sure if it shouldn't be 0755.

eselect is what I used on gentoo. And my DRI is set to 0666.

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The OSS ethernet driver forcedeth 0.40 (the latest version) can't handle an NVidia NForce 4 Ethernet network interface in a dual-boot environment with Windows XP. As XP leaves the NIC in an "unusable state".

Thus you manually have to do sudo ifdown eth0 and sudo ifup eth0 to get network working after booting. It's annoying.

Hmm, I used forcedeth on here when I tried gentoo, and I don't remember any problems like that.. of course it wans't version 0.40 when I tried it. Unless the Gentoo amd64 live cd had a fix for it.

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I agree that Suspend/Resume is crap on Linux, as well. I tend to just shut my lid and let the hardware take care of it! And Windows suspend/resume doesn't work out the box. If you install standard non-OEM Windows XP on that laptop, I am 99% sure that it won't suspend/resume properly. It's because laptops are so specialised, Windows is 'tweaked' to run on it.

You are 99% wrong then. Unless it's some really messed up hardware, there's no tweaking needed.* Almost any laptop has APM or ACPI, so you just need a basic ACPI driver, just like on linux.

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MiquelFire: That's one of the few faults I can find with Fluxbox, but in Linux you're lucky. You now have two paths which you don't have in Windows:
Install a different Window Manager
Modify the source for the window manager so that it works how you want.
You can install a different shell in Windows, but you're not supposed to.

You can change your WM with a shell that supports it. And who says you're not supposed to install a different shell? Personally I like explorer and it works fine for me, I have no reason to screw around with it.

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Kikaru: You can just as easily get used to Linux. The games you know you like are windoze only, but there are plenty of FOSS alternatives.

Most FOSS games blow chunks. They aren't as in depth or polished as most commercial games.

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I'm not sure if my ATi Remote Control is supported by linux.

Should work. I know researching remote controls for a MythTV box I may build it recommend ATi RemoteWonder and linked to a few linux setup pages on it.

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Linux is great as a server.. but I couldn't see myself sticking with it as a desktop. I don't really like KDE that much and Gnome wasn't any good back when I tried it (many years ago).
Besides, what is wrong with windows? I don't have any problems at all. I need a reason to switch as well, even if all of these reasons not to switch are met.

Most of the programs I use are compatible with linux (firefox/thunderbird, azureus, etc) but for all of the others I would need to find an alternative and hope it is just as good. DVD/CD-ROM emulation software, MSN (miranda and gaim both suck), I also use Utopia Angel which is windows exclusive. Dual booting isn't really worth anything to me because linux doesn't actually improve on anything that I'm doing.

That's basically my stand. Add AIM to the list of programs as well, at least for me. :P

[edit]
* About the extent of "tweaking" you have to do in almost all cases is enable hibernation and tell it which drive to use to store the image, if it wasn't already done.

kentl
Quote:

Hmm, I used forcedeth on here when I tried gentoo, and I don't remember any problems like that.. of course it wans't version 0.40 when I tried it. Unless the Gentoo amd64 live cd had a fix for it.

The networking guys at the Ubuntu forum said it was a known issue. I can probably resolve it by using the propriety driver from NVidia. Which I will change into when I have some free time.

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miranda and gaim both suck

Miranda has been good in the past, then it became bad for a period of time, and now it's good again. :) Kopete on Linux is quite excellent if you haven't tried it.

Krzysztof Kluczek

I haven't read all posts, but here are my reasons for not using Linux:
- being too lazy to install it
- I can't find text editor I feel comfortable with (vim and emacs are out because of shortcuts I'm not going go learn, mcedit is quite OK, but lacks comfortable copy&paste)
- lack of system-level clipboard (or I haven't managed to find one)
- problems with video drivers (probably can be found after some googling, but I don't want to spend whole night setting Linux up)
- most games don't run under Linux (Wine is out because - as I've said, I'm not going to spend too much time setting this all up)
- I'm probably going to miss Visual Studion 2005 (IntelliSense in vs2k5 rocks)
- I don't trust too much GCC after it compiled my code wrongly (and it didn't happen once)
- "compile-everything-yourself" approach of Linux users, especially with libraries with many dependencies, some of which doesn't compile out-of-the-box (fortunately, Allegro is really nice when it comes to compiling it, but other programs/libraries often are not) - on Windows I have everything what I need as a binary, including libraries I'm using
- lack of Direct3D - I'm using both OpenGL and Direct3D, depending on what suits better for given project and I'm not going to drop any of them
- problems with making Windows binaries - most people still use Windows, so being able to make (and test!) Windows binaries is essential for every game developer

Also, as I've said later, even if some of above problems can be solved after some googling and installing something, I'm not going to spend too much time setting this all up, when installing Windows takes several minutes and it perfectly suits my needs. :)

MiquelFire
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- I can't find text editor I feel comfortable with (vim and emacs are out because of shortcuts I'm not going go learn, mcedit is quite OK, but lacks comfortable copy&paste)

I use nano. But for GUI stuff, I use SciTE (well, on Windows at least. I haven't got to the point of needing it on Linux yet)

Michael Jensen

It never just works. ML is exactly right about the config files too -- I have linux installed on a VirtualPC at work, and I even had to hand edit a config file after installing it to get it to work with my VirtualPC's "onboard graphics controller" -- thankfully, an editor in a magazine had the same issue and documented exactly what to do to make it work...

In my experience, linux is slower. (yes, even on real PCs I've seen Windows 95 run circles around linux -- on the same machine...)

I Can't develop VB.NET 2.0 based web-applications on a linux desktop machine, or host them on a linux server for that matter. -- So there goes any chance of professional usage for linux.

The games I buy in the store (just recently bought City of Heroes) don't run on linux.

I've never been able to configure, etc, etc, etc a graphics card for linux to actually get Hardware acceleration to work. But of course the manufacturer's website and the driver disk that was provided with the card make it work badassidly on windows...

When ReactOS starts making stable releases I wouldn't mind trying it out and possibly switching. But at the moment, no, it's not a valid alternative.

Linux sure is one hell of an alternative... Do you enjoy watching people in pain? Why are you trying to make them switch?

Mr. Big

My favorite computer games don't run on Linux.

Michael Faerber
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Do you enjoy watching people in pain? Why are you trying to make them switch?

On the Ubuntu forums somebody made a very long post which types of people should be convertible to Linux and which not. Very interesting.

One thing he wrote was that gamers are very hard to migrate; you shouldn't try that. Considering that on this forum most of the people play games, making this thread may not have been such a good idea. :-/

And telling people "Go you!" when they try to help / comment isn't very friendly too.

ReyBrujo

Yeah, gaming people are less likely to switch. Same with designers. Programmers may switch, as those with too much moral to use pirated software :P

relpatseht

I know this is completely off-topic and I am not in the habit of posting here or anywhere, for that matter, despite the fact that I spend a considerable amount of time browsing these forums, especially when off-topic; however, considering the relatively high zealot to logical user ratio among Linux users is quite high, I feel it is important to represent the denominator from time to time, despite undeniable fact that my text will be simply lost in the sea.

Personally, I am glad very few people use Linux. I use Linux myself and every percent of the market share Linux doesn't have is another deterrent to not make viruses, ad-ware, and spyware on Linux, which, of course, means I don't need to be bothered with anti-spyware programs alerting me to every registry change and anti-virus programs eating resources over their time consuming scans. The firewall portion is covered by my router, so I have little to worry about there. Meanwhile, my hardware has perfect support and I already know perfectly well how to use Linux. Also, considering I don't play computer games, all programs which I find essential for daily tasks are found on Linux. Furthermore, applications open when I click on them, buttons still go down and up with my mouse button, keys appear on the screen seemingly the instant I click on them, and any games I run for testing purposes, even if developed for consoles and need to be run in an emulator, run at least fast enough that I don't notice any glitches in movement; however, this may all be because my mind is not quick enough to see the milliseconds piling up.

Also, I believe it is important to note that there truly is no reason for anyone to switch to Linux. As long as they have any sort of argument, that is reason enough. Linux users seem to have this misconception that having people convert from worshiping colored boxes to worshiping penguins will lead the across the river to the promised land and eternal bliss, saving them from eternal damnation; however, this is not the case. In truth, they do no more than lead them from a field of sparse grass shoots and the occasional pothole across a polluted river carrying corpses in a swift current to, at best, a slightly different, but not better, field, and at worst, a garbage dump and the same eternal damnation from which they sought to alleviate the user from in the first place, giving them no choice but to once again cross the perilous river. Religious allegories aside, I have never even seen a Linux user present one truthful argument based solely on fact as to the superiority of Linux which cannot be countered with either an equally, if not more, valid argument, and this is putting aside the trouble must first go to before the switch is even complete. Furthermore, whenever one posses an argument against Linux's support of hardware, Linux users always seem to respond something along the lines of "That isn't Linux's fault" or "Yes, but it is amazing that Linux supports the amount of hardware that it does, considering almost no companies produce native drivers for it". Well, it might not be Linux's fault that it has poor hardware support but it most certainly is its problem, and considering that hardware support on Linux will not be taken care of by companies until Linux has a considerable (read: outside of the "other" piece on a pie graph) portion of the market share, which in turn wont happen until Linux has fantastic hardware support, this argument amounts to little more than a whine from people to lazy to crack their knuckles and start writting hardware drivers. I find the second quote I presented to foolish an argument to justify with any more words than this sentence contains, for it is equivalent to telling your boss after turning in a half finished project that he should congratulate you for accomplishing anything at all.

I would type more on the subject, but I feel this contribution, though incomplete, is already long enough to be immediately skipped over by any person to whom it applies. Furthermore, I smell food cooking and am quite sure the meal is complete.

Jakub Wasilewski
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those with too much moral to use pirated software

I'm wondering, which percentage is smaller... those using Linux, or those with high enough morals :)?

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And telling people "Go you!" when they try to help / comment isn't very friendly too.

I believe "go xxx!" is actually meant to encourage the xxx ;).

Anyway, I'd like to switch to Linux because being able to use a completely free OS/application setup has very much appeal for me. I always thought very high of people creating open source/freeware software, and I try to make all my own projects at least the latter, if not also the former.

I might try to get used to Linux again when it becomes inevitable to trash Windows XP because no new Windows stuff will be running on it.

BAF

I'm rereading most of the thread to pick up on stuff I missed.

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It took me about a month to get equivalents for all the software I used on Windows.

What a waste of a month :P

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For example, configuration files work pretty much the same way for whatever you're trying to configure, so you only have to learn once and all the config files on the system are friendly to the user (you).

Not quite. Config files vary greatly. And look at the hell in xorg.conf. You'd have to have a very specific reason to try to make that file from scratch with xorgconfig and such that will do it for you.

Also, James, your tactics of blaming all problems of lack of availability the hardware/software vendors is plain ignorant. They make money off their programs, why would they just want to throw source code out in the open? And why try for Linux compatibility? One binary will never work on all systems.

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The 'knowing my way around Windows' is a common excuse, but just because you know how to work Windows, doesn't mean you can't have fun learning Linux.

Be careful how you say that. Some people, such as me, know both Linux and Windows. I use Linux on BAFServ, and my own personal server (which I run KDE w/ nx on), for example. Windows is by far the better choice, at least IMO, for desktop usage.

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I'm currently trying to install Gentoo because I'm building a cluster, unfortunately it will run on wireless, and the Gentoo installation pretty much requires ethernet, but I'll just lug it all downstairs to the router to get my drivers.

I had no problem with Gentoo and wireless (and I had to use ndiswrapper).

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It's not actually the only distro that works, but the CD drive won't read 'dark' disks, and I've started use CD-RWs, so I can't get any new distros on there, so I'm stuck with DSL.

CD-RW's stink. :P They take too long to erase/reuse/burn, plus they are more expensive. I've only reused a CD-RW once or twice before, and for that price, it's easier for the few cents it costs for a CD-R.

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ReactOS is cool. I ran it in an emulator once, and it seemed good. Unfortunately it seemed as stable as the Windows it is emulating. They even put in the BSOD.

Haha, that's so funny. What was your stability problem? Tell me your reasons for not using Windows, so I can offer explanations or alternatives.

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Epsi: No, you don't. You want to play that sort of game. There are plenty of alternatives. Also, the alternatives are free (as in beer), so even though they're not the same game, they're a lot cheaper. I know, that's a crap argument.

How do you know? I don't want to play some half-assed OSS alternative for UT, I want to play UT. And you have yet to mention an OSS alternative to those games.

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Yeah. Just edit the right files, I don't know off hand, because I've never felt the urge to stick three monitors on my desk (in fact, one barely fits!). If you could be bothered, you could install Linux once. Do all the fooling around, and never need to install it again. If you use a package manager (most distros do), you can use that to update the whole system with just a few commands, you could even put it in your crontab.

Until an upgrade introduces a new configuration file or deprecates something, then you're fucked and have to hack at it more. Been there, done that.

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On my Dads machine, he runs Windows, on my machine, I run MEPIS with KDE. My Dads machine has a faster processor, more RAM, and a graphics card (I use onboard), and the menus on right click take seconds to appear. It's just generally slow. I hate using it. KDE does everything instantly.

Having a clean install w/o spyware and all kinds of random context menu hooks helps. My 1.5 year old install still shows right context menus immediately, unless something is using 100% cpu.

Quote:

- unneeded security - I understand why Linux handles users the way it does, and I know it has its uses, but a home desktop is not one of them. I found that sometimes I have to "sudo" games just to let them run in fullscreen, and during the configuration stage I was pretty tired of finding out that I forgot to sudo Kate and it won't allow me to save the config file.

That reminds me of Vista. ;D To change the graphics settings, it asked me about 3 times if I was sure I wanted to change the setting. If I run Vista after it comes out, it better have options to disable all that shit.

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Your last argument I could throw right back at you and say Kolf doesn't work on Windows, Kaffeine doesn't work on Windows, Amarok doesn't work on Windows, KMail doesn't work on Windows, Konqueror doesn't work in Windows.

Might I help you? I don't know what Kolf is, Kaffiene is a movie player right? Use Windows Media player. Amarok is countered by Winamp. KMail is countered by thunderbird, and Konq by firefox. And, you are wrong. There are ports of KDE to Windows that you can use.

Also, ironically, in most cases I find support on IRC and such much better for Windows. You ask a question, they tell you point blank what you want. With Linux, sometimes you can get a good response, other times you have to explain your setup for 10 minutes, just to find out it's not possible. Funny, I've been trying on EFNet and FreeNode for 2 days to get help with suspend2 on my laptop, to no avail. Too bad I took so long configuring it all how I liked. :(

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Personally, I am glad very few people use Linux. I use Linux myself and every percent of the market share Linux doesn't have is another deterrent to not make viruses, ad-ware, and spyware on Linux, which, of course, means I don't need to be bothered with anti-spyware programs alerting me to every registry change and anti-virus programs eating resources over their time consuming scans. The firewall portion is covered by my router, so I have little to worry about there. Meanwhile, my hardware has perfect support and I already know perfectly well how to use Linux. Also, considering I don't play computer games, all programs which I find essential for daily tasks are found on Linux. Furthermore, applications open when I click on them, buttons still go down and up with my mouse button, keys appear on the screen seemingly the instant I click on them, and any games I run for testing purposes, even if developed for consoles and need to be run in an emulator, run at least fast enough that I don't notice any glitches in movement; however, this may all be because my mind is not quick enough to see the milliseconds piling up.

I thought Linux wa too secure for that? That's what everybody says in the list of pros for Linux. Thanks for backing up another one of my ideas. Ironically, a lot of people on Linux (I can recall a thread where binaries/source were discussed) say security through obscurity is bad, although, that's all Linux's security really is! And, I don't get alerts every registry change, I don't run antivirus software, I don't run a software firewall.

You must be lucky with your hardware support, but I don't see where anything yuyouaid there is an argument against Windows. Properly configured windows won't have any problems that you insinuated are there. What makes you think an idiot using Linux would turn out any better? They'd end up breaking stuff badly with config files and such, at least Windows is somewhat tolerant to idiots.

Quote:

Also, I believe it is important to note that there truly is no reason for anyone to switch to Linux. As long as they have any sort of argument, that is reason enough. Linux users seem to have this misconception that having people convert from worshiping colored boxes to worshiping penguins will lead the across the river to the promised land and eternal bliss, saving them from eternal damnation; however, this is not the case. In truth, they do no more than lead them from a field of sparse grass shoots and the occasional pothole across a polluted river carrying corpses in a swift current to, at best, a slightly different, but not better, field, and at worst, a garbage dump and the same eternal damnation from which they sought to alleviate the user from in the first place, giving them no choice but to once again cross the perilous river. Religious allegories aside, I have never even seen a Linux user present one truthful argument based solely on fact as to the superiority of Linux which cannot be countered with either an equally, if not more, valid argument, and this is putting aside the trouble must first go to before the switch is even complete. Furthermore, whenever one posses an argument against Linux's support of hardware, Linux users always seem to respond something along the lines of "That isn't Linux's fault" or "Yes, but it is amazing that Linux supports the amount of hardware that it does, considering almost no companies produce native drivers for it". Well, it might not be Linux's fault that it has poor hardware support but it most certainly is its problem, and considering that hardware support on Linux will not be taken care of by companies until Linux has a considerable (read: outside of the "other" piece on a pie graph) portion of the market share, which in turn wont happen until Linux has fantastic hardware support, this argument amounts to little more than a whine from people to lazy to crack their knuckles and start writting hardware drivers. I find the second quote I presented to foolish an argument to justify with any more words than this sentence contains, for it is equivalent to telling your boss after turning in a half finished project that he should congratulate you for accomplishing anything at all.

Well put! :)

Quote:

I would type more on the subject, but I feel this contribution, though incomplete, is already long enough to be immediately skipped over by any person to whom it applies. Furthermore, I smell food cooking and am quite sure the meal is complete.

I'd read more, but as you said, it doesn't apply to me. Enjoy your meal. ;D

Jakub Wasilewski
Quote:

I would type more on the subject, but I feel this contribution, though incomplete, is already long enough to be immediately skipped over by any person to whom it applies

If BAF hadn't quoted it, I'd never have read it. Maybe if you used paragraphs :).

Trent Gamblin

I agree with everyone here that says Linux can be a pain to set up, but [opinion] if you take the time to set it up correctly I find it's better than Window's in every way [/opinion]. That said, compared to ten years ago when I first started using Linux, it has come a long way in the ease of use department and only gets better. Personally I don't mind learning a few things if they'll save me time and give me more flexibility in the long run.

Regarding video performance, I get the same results in both.

I'm not trying to convert anyone to Linux though. If you're happy with Windows I don't mind. :) As long as you don't try to take my rights away like Microsoft is doing with all the DRM in Vista that is.

relpatseht
Quote:

I thought liLinuxas too secure for that? That's what everybody says in the list of pros for liLinuxThanks for backing up another one of my ideas. Ironically, a lot of people on Linux (I can recall a thread where binaries/source were discussed) say security through obscurity is bad, although, that's all Linux's security really is!

Linux is not so secure as to make a virus ininfeasiblebut that does not mean its only security is through obscurity, rather, it means that Linux, like every other operating system that has ever existed, has holes, perhaps not as many, but they most certainly are present. It is simply because of the lack of a considerable user base which prevents it from being a target to malicious programmers.

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You must be lucky with your hahardwareupport, but I don't see where anything yuyouaid there is an argument against Windows. Properly configured windows won't have any problems that you ininsinuatedre there. What makes you think an idiot using Linux would turn out any better? They'd end up breaking stuff badly with config files and such, at least Windows is somewhat tolerant to idiots.

Why do you assume I am arguing against Windows simply because I state that my hardware is fully supported in Linux and I don't care if it runs a small amount slower than Windows?

Quote:

If BAF hadn't quoted it, I'd never have read it. Maybe if you used paragraphs.

In my opinion, I use paragraphs. Insidiously long, convoluted, multi-point paragraphs, but paragraphs none the less. In any event, any post which I make consisting of more than five sentences is most likely more for my own piece of mind than to attempt to convey any sort of message. I don't expect anything of any length greater than that to be read, but post it anyway so that when whatever I am posting against becomes an evil Nazi dictator, I can say, "Well, I told you so but you didn't listen, therefore, for the next few moments before our exile, you shall exalt me as your supreme ruler."

BAF

[ot] liLinuxas? hahardwareupport? Spellchecker bug again? :o I'll have to edit and fix that. [/ot]

About assumptions, I was just assuming at first you were against windows, then as I read more I realized you weren't attacking, and never edited what I had read (I typed my response as I read your post).

Onewing
Quote:

liLinuxas? hahardwareupport? Spellchecker bug again? I'll have to edit and fix that.

I just thought you had tourettes syndrome. Anyway, I've seen the spellchecker bug pop up on several different posts lately, but I never had the problem when using IE. Go IE! What? I thought this was the forum to post our pointless campaigns?

BAF

That's the first time I've had it happen to me.

Archon
Quote:

your reasons for not switching to Linux

I've switched but I dual boot...

  • I can't play many games on Linux[/*]

  • My scanner wont work in Linux[/*]

  • Visual Studio is Windows only[/*]

  • A few programs that are in my university's cirriculum requires Windows (SQL Server, VS.NET, occassionally a misc program)[/*]

  • I still need to test things on windows (finished games for example)[/*]

  • Some programs that are available on Linux just aren't comparable to the official Windows ones (eg, Kopete vs MSN and AOL)[/*]

  • ReactOS runs too slowly within Linux and it's too incomplete (plus it'd be bad for playing games... 2 OSes in 1 plus a graphic-intensive program within the 2nd layer)[/*]
  • Dustin Dettmer

    XP is a much better OS then linux for day to day use. Primarily due to driver support and friendly UI.

    I use windows because I don't have to think about how to use it, I can just use it.

    I use linux for hosting servers because windows is extremely expensive for that sort of thing and still doesn't support all of the stuff I need.

    James Stanley

    OK.

    Now I'm only going to reply to people I can try to help.

    Derezo: For Photoshop you could try the Gimp, but you'll probably not like it if every other Photoshop user is anything to go by. I'd give arguments for a few of the others but I'd only get flamed :(. I do agree that Linux is more server oriented. And nothing is wrong with Windows if you don't mind vendor lock in and paying for most of the software you use, and all the viruses, spyware and malware. As I mentioned somewhere else, finding alternatives isn't that hard, but if you use very specialised software I can see where you'd get stuck.

    Trumgottist: I didn't realise you used a Mac, but as they mainly use PPC, a compatibility layer wouldn't be a lot of help anyway. There are some emulators about, though. I didn't realise there wasn't a Mac version of OOo. I could suggest denemo for music authoring, but it's not too great.

    Kent Larsson: I read somewhere that user friendly means friendly to an experienced user, not to a new user. I agree that I've taken water over my head. I didn't think many people would need help.

    Michael Faerber, Jakub Wasilewski: When I said Go you I wasn't being sarcastic. I was trying to reply to every post. But now, because there are so many, I've given up on that :).

    BAF: I can't use ndiswrapper as the Windows drivers don't work. I will need to connect it to the internet (with Ethernet) to get the rt2500 driver from portage. I might just get a source tarball from somewhere else and leave everything where it is. I didn't know KDE had been ported to Windows.

    Archon: I do agree that scanner support isn't good. I've never had to use one, but I've also never seen the opportunity to use one.

    Thomas Fjellstrom
    Quote:

    XP is a much better OS then linux for day to day use. Primarily due to driver support and friendly UI.

    Pure oppinion. I've been using Linux as my primary desktop machine for over 5 years. I used windows for an entire year, on what was my first "real" PC, before I gave it up entirely.

    If a major computer n00b can manage to install and switch to linux a year after he got his first real computer, over 5 years ago, when linux and KDE/Gnome was far less polished, it's ready enough. And would be totally ready if not for hardware manufacturers reluctant to support linux in any way, even if its just releasing specs to people or teams that have signed NDA agreements.

    Evert

    May I say that I find it a bit presumptuous to ask people why they don't switch from $operatingsystem to $otheroperatingsystem?

    As to my reasons not to use Windows, it doesn't run many of the programs I use, the shell is crap, the windowmanager is ugly, becomes unresponsive at random and the system in general is just confusing and non-user friendly.
    Sure, I could install Cygwin and solve at least part of the first two problems, install a different window manager and get rid of the third (and maybe fourth) problem. As far as being user friendly is concerned, I'd probably have a different opinion on that if I'd used Windows regularly over the past six years or so, but I only use it once a month or so and use a UNIX system the rest of the time.

    Morale of story: could I use Windows instead of *nix for my day-to-day computer use? Maybe, but I'd find it extremely tedious. I'd get really annoyed if people asked me to justify why I don't start using it.

    Trumgottist
    James Stanley said:

    I didn't realise there wasn't a Mac version of OOo.

    There is one, but it runs through X11 rather than using the native GUI, so it is clunky. But I've found a fork called NeoOffice now, that is a proper OSX program. It seems to work ok.

    jhuuskon

    Appalling, depressingly crap audio API's (dare to say JACK and i reply with
    "...off") and software.

    Lack of real games.

    miran

    When one company and product dominate a certain market, such as is the case with Microsoft and Windows, it makes for a socially and economically very dangerous situation. Just think of the possibilities for control and government opression, or what would happen if for example Microsoft suddenly died. Not to mention how embarassing this is for the advocates of capitalism and democracy. Again, think of the potential for government control, lack of competition between software companies and lack of choice for the end consumers.

    Therefore it is a good thing when individuals, companies and government and independant organizations use or at least contemplate using alternative software such as Linux and other Open Source Software. This hasve several benefits. It increases our indpendance from a single software provider. For example if the provider of your Linux distribution goes down or doesn't satisfy your needs anymore, the migration to a different distribution is relatively easy. It increases our security and privacy because governments and one government in particular have a much harder time influencing many software companies than just one. And it increases quality of software products because of increased competition between different companies and increased cooperation of independant developers.

    So, everyone who speaks for Windows, directly or indirectly supports a political system in which governments have the means to control all aspects of your life, and an economical system in which when you walk into a store, the shelves are filled with one and only one product. Your choice...

    Jakub Wasilewski
    Quote:

    So, everyone who speaks for Windows, directly or indirectly supports a political system in which governments have the means to control all aspects of your life, and an economical system in which when you walk into a store, the shelves are filled with one and only one product.

    Woah, miran. When did you became a zealot? You were a fresh convert not so long ago :P.

    I use Open Source Software where I deem it a better solution. I don't even have MS Office installed, I just use OpenOffice instead. All the tools in my development chain are OSS, except maybe for Corel which is used for graphics. I generally look for free (as in speech) alternatives to applications before choosing a commercial one.

    However, my love of OSS doesn't really translate to automatically switching to Linux. And the fact that I like OSS doesn't mean that I can't think that Windows is better, for me.

    Linux people, please, learn from Evert. Windows people too.

    kentl
    Quote:

    Kent Larsson: I read somewhere that user friendly means friendly to an experienced user, not to a new user.

    I say that something is user friendly if it is easy to use for both a newbie and an experienced user. This isn't really anything to debate. Lot's and lots of experienced Linux users (not me or you) agree that it yet isn't as user friendly as it needs to be.

    Quote:

    I agree that I've taken water over my head. I didn't think many people would need help.

    The thing is that people can't be helped in a lot of situations. The issues in my first post for example, unresolved.

    As I use a dual-boot system there's got to be something I like about Linux? And there is.

    But it still has its "unsolvable" issues like crappy support from hardware manufacturers and most major application developers. It also has a lot of solvable issues which probably will be solved/improved in the future.

    James Stanley

    Hear, hear to miran ;).

    Kent: I wrote a script for you, so that should at least show that I'm TRYING to help. I also gave CursedTyrant some help, but I don't think that helped either.

    kentl
    Quote:

    I wrote a script for you, so that should at least show that I'm TRYING to help

    Yes and I thanked you for it. I think you missed my point? I said that people can't be helped with a lot of issues as there are no solutions. Did I make myself clear now? :)

    James Stanley

    I know, I got your point before. I was just showing that I was trying to help. I don't know really... I know on forums people often read with a different tone than it was written, because you can't show facial expression (except through smileys). I wasn't being mean when I said that.

    kentl
    Quote:

    I wasn't being mean when I said that.

    I thought that you took offense to something I wrote, but I'm glad you didn't.

    HoHo

    I agree with Evert. I was a Windows user from '97 to '04 and I used 95, 98 and XP during that time. My first real experience with Linux was in '03 when I had too much time (two weeks) and decided to install Gentoo on my brand new machine. In half a year I was spending most of my time in Linux and in a year XP disappeared from my HDD.

    Reasons why I switched:

      </li>

    • awful shell[*]some programs doesn't work that well (PAPI)[*]very little control over the system[*]LVM-like things are rather bad or insanely expensive[*]lots of stuff were plain illogical[*]no dcop/dbus[/list]I could probably continue the list for quite a while but since I haven't used windows for almost two years I don't remember much of the stuff.
    • Of course once KDE4 gets ported to Windows quite a few of those problems will be solved to some extent. Also some of the things can be repaired with 3'rd party tools.

      Only thing I might miss are games. Fortunately there hasn't been any good games released that I would like to play that do not have native Linux versions or don't work through Wine/Cedega :P

      I've installed Gentoo for my parents too and they are rather happy about it. I can administer their PC over the internet anywhere I like without much problems. I don't even have to ask them to stop their work when I log in remotely.

      From my experience with other people I would say that mostly people don't want to use one or the other because they are either afraid of changes or are too lazy to learn new things.

      miran
      Quote:

      From my experience with other people I would say that mostly people don't want to use one or the other because they are either afraid of changes or are too lazy to learn new things.

      Actually most people don't even know what an operating system is and don't care to know. When people see my computer, they usually say just that my "Windows" looks a bit different than theirs.

      HoHo
      Quote:

      Actually most people don't even know what an operating system is and don't care to know.

      True but that kind of people wouldn't ever think to switch their OS by themselves too. I was talking about the people who actually make a difference between OS'es and who might try it or have tried :)

      Simsimius

      Why should I change to Linux when XP does everything I want it to do, with very few "problems". Heck, it runs perfectly.

      XP has come great games.
      XP is commonly used, so most programs run on it with ease.
      XP does it's job.

      I DO have a copy of Mandrivia (formally Mandrake) Linux which I intend to install on ANOTHER computer - just so I can play around with it, maybe port my games over, etc. I am a supporter of Linux, but never use it.

      But you should never force people to convert - let them choose what suits THEM, not YOU. After all, most people I know don't know much about how to use Windows. I dread letting them use linux. Luckily, they won't.

      Windows can also run Open Source software (Yay Open Source!).
      I hate MS software, which is why I use Firefox and Thunderbird! I also prefer to use Google Talk over MSN (But I use MSN more >_<).
      But Windows XP is the only MS product I'd happily use, as it works great for me. I don't think I'll use Vista though.

      Evert
      Quote:

      After all, most people I know don't know much about how to use Windows. I dread letting them use linux.

      Makes no difference. My mother is a computer illiterate and she uses Linux without problems. Oh sure, she doesn't know how to install things or change settings, but then again, she doesn't know how to do those things in Windows either (she's the type that doesn't just click `ok' if she doesn't understand what is said in a dialogbox).

      HoHo
      Quote:

      But you should never force people to convert - let them choose what suits THEM, not YOU

      Problem with Linux is that very few people use it. Small userbase is directly connected with less support. If Linux had ~20% desktop market share things would probably look very different.

      Another problem is that vast majority of PC users don't even know there is an alternative for Windows. Heck, I know a couple of people to whom the box under the table is called "Windows".

      That leads us, Linux users, to advertise Linux to other people. We want them to try it in hope that some of them would start using it so that support for it would become better. At least that's why I do it :)

      [edit]

      Quote:

      Makes no difference

      Same here with my parents. They had used XP for about a year when I reinstalled Linux on their PC. All I had to do was to show how to log in, where the browser opens and how to shut the PC down. It took them about a day to get used to it and I haven't heard a single complaint. Actually they like it even better since it communicates in a language they understand, not some weird slang with lots of words they haven't heard before.

      Matthew Leverton
      Quote:

      And nothing is wrong with Windows if you don't mind vendor lock in and paying for most of the software you use, and all the viruses, spyware and malware.

      That statement is full of assumptions. I don't pay for my software. Am I a pirate? Nope! Windows has almost as much free software as Linux - and oftentimes the same software. The top applications I run are: OpenOffice, Firefox, Putty, WinSCP, Google Talk, WinAmp, and Homesite (which I did pay $60 for 5 years ago).

      I don't have to worry about viruses, spyware, or malware. And I don't even use any anti-virus software! It's all about common sense. That leads me to my main point...

      If Linux had 95% desktop share, do you think it would really be that much different? Novice users would still buy most of their software from Walmart, because that's what they see when they go shopping. And they would still get viruses because people would write them for Linux. They might not be quite as lethal, but a virus can still be quite damaging even if ran only with user permissions.

      I'm familiar with running Linux for servers, and guess what? They (not mine in particular) are hacked a lot. Why? Because they have a good marketshare and it's a good target. I don't know why Linux fanboys have this desire to see their OS overtake the world. The arguments I've seen for a Linux switch are quite shallow.

      I, and most Windows users who know about Linux, understand that it is a capable operating system. But believe it or not, we've actually tried out Linux and didn't like it! It's rather funny how blind some Linux fanboys are to not comprehend that Linux isn't the savior of the desktop OS. Some people will find one or the other more enjoyable to use. And yes, some people won't even know the difference.

      These "I converted my mom to Linux" stories always amuse me. My mom has never opened a virus on Windows or had spyware. She runs a wireless network that is fed off a shared dialup Linux server. So what? She has 24/7 free tech support. If she's not sure on something, she can call me. She usually doesn't have to though, because I've already "trained" her. "Converting" anyone isn't proof of anything except that they trust you to be their personal administrator.

      Oh, and one last thing: if Linux didn't have Windows to chase, I think it would be a much more stale operating system. Microsoft isn't the only organization that needs competition to be innovative. Linux and Microsoft are both good for each other.

      Edward Sheets

      I can't imagine why any gamer would reformat their hard drive and switch to Linux. You're giving up DirectX? Are you sure you want to do that?

      I did a hard drive install of Ubuntu a while back and I downloaded Allegro and I went to the examples folder and the demo. The graphical performance was pitiful! And there was no sound whatsoever on the demo or any other Allegro games I tried. Maybe someday Linux will have something comparable to DirectX. Until then, why would any gamer or game developer switch to Linux as their primary OS? Yes, I'm sure it is possible to hack around Linux enough to get some sound working or get a little better graphical performance via OpenGL (if you can find decent drivers:-/). But there is nothing as complete and reliable as DirectX for multimedia development on Linux - and until there is, Windows will be the place where games are developed and played.

      BAF
      Quote:

      When one company and product dominate a certain market, such as is the case with Microsoft and Windows, it makes for a socially and economically very dangerous situation. Just think of the possibilities for control and government opression, or what would happen if for example Microsoft suddenly died. Not to mention how embarassing this is for the advocates of capitalism and democracy. Again, think of the potential for government control, lack of competition between software companies and lack of choice for the end consumers.

      Therefore it is a good thing when individuals, companies and government and independant organizations use or at least contemplate using alternative software such as Linux and other Open Source Software. This hasve several benefits. It increases our indpendance from a single software provider. For example if the provider of your Linux distribution goes down or doesn't satisfy your needs anymore, the migration to a different distribution is relatively easy. It increases our security and privacy because governments and one government in particular have a much harder time influencing many software companies than just one. And it increases quality of software products because of increased competition between different companies and increased cooperation of independant developers.

      So, everyone who speaks for Windows, directly or indirectly supports a political system in which governments have the means to control all aspects of your life, and an economical system in which when you walk into a store, the shelves are filled with one and only one product. Your choice...

      So when are you going to turn Linux into something that can compete?

      Quote:

      I, and most Windows users who know about Linux, understand that it is a capable operating system. But believe it or not, we've actually tried out Linux and didn't like it! It's rather funny how blind some Linux fanboys are to not comprehend that Linux isn't the savior of the desktop OS. Some people will find one or the other more enjoyable to use. And yes, some people won't even know the difference.

      And that is the very meaning of competition itself. Some people will like one product, others will like the other.

      Ron Ofir

      Tweaking configuration files is fun? Downloading sources from ugly ten years old websites and trying to get them compiled for hours is fun? Let's face it, Linux is for control-freaks :P And I'm a happy dual-boot user (Kubuntu and XP).

      Evert
      Quote:

      These "I converted my mom to Linux" stories always amuse me. My mom has never opened a virus on Windows or had spyware. She runs a wireless network that is fed off a shared dialup Linux server. So what? She has 24/7 free tech support. If she's not sure on something, she can call me. She usually doesn't have to though, because I've already "trained" her. "Converting" anyone isn't proof of anything except that they trust you to be their personal administrator.

      I fail to see your point?
      'My mother uses Linux with no more trouble than she has with Windows' is my rebuke to `Linux is intrinsically harder to use than Windows', no more.

      Thomas Fjellstrom
      Quote:

      Tweaking configuration files is fun? Downloading sources from ugly ten years old websites and trying to get them compiled for hours is fun? Let's face it, Linux is for control-freaks :P

      Um, talk about uninformed :P

      Examples of program installation processes, each line is a separate package manager.

      emerge package
      apt-get install package
      yum install package
      

      There are more, mainly just front ends to rpm that handle dependencies, like yum, and apt-rpm.

      James Stanley
      Quote:

      if Linux didn't have Windows to chase

      Linux isn't chasing Windows. Linux is better than Windows! Anyway, one example that comes to mind (I'm sure you can think of examples in the other direction), IE didn't have tabs until Firefox did. Firefox was written for UNIX operating systems.

      Evert
      Quote:

      Linux is better than Windows!

      ::)

      Quote:

      Firefox was written for UNIX operating systems.

      ::)

      Please do your homework before making silly statements like that.

      Thomas Fjellstrom

      Actually firefox/mozilla was written in a platform independent manner so it would work on Windows and Unix.

      kentl
      Quote:

      Actually firefox/mozilla was written in a platform independent manner so it would work on Windows and Unix.

      And in my opinion FireFox works better on the Windows platform, which is annoying. (Check my first post in this thread for my issues with it and plugins for it.)

      HoHo
      Quote:

      It's all about common sense

      I agree. Too bad lots of people don't have that :P

      Quote:

      If Linux had 95% desktop share, do you think it would really be that much different?

      Actually I have no ideas how would things look like then. I sure hope Linux would not gain that much marketshare. About 30-40 would be perfect in my oppinion.

      Though I would expect that if Linux would indeed get that big userbase then it would be a bit better than with Windows. Reason is OSS: everyone can see your code and if there are bugs they will get fixed someday. There is little hope that none would notice and you could silently sit and hope that it won't ever come up.

      Quote:

      But believe it or not, we've actually tried out Linux and didn't like it!

      As can be seen from this very same thread there are quite a few people who did like it. I can count a bunch of people from other forums too. That means some people do like it. The more people try it the faster the userbase will grow. To make people try Linux it has to be advertised. Too bad there are zealots who overreact badly and actually scare people away :-/

      Quote:

      So when are you going to turn Linux into something that can compete?

      They are working on it. Bugreport has already been filed ;D

      Anyway, as you probably know Linux has made major leap in couple years. Five years ago XP was way ahead of *nix alternatives but in about a year or two the difference is way smaller than back then. Work is being done but it takes time. They do show rather good progress, though.

      Quote:

      Linux isn't chasing Windows

      Actually they are all chasing each other.

      Quote:

      Linux is better than Windows!

      For me, yes. For average gamer, probably no. At least not until there is big enough marketshare that developers actually support Linux.

      Quote:

      Firefox was written for UNIX operating systems.

      Are you sure? Also I'm not sure that FF was the first one with tabs.

      Matthew Leverton
      Quote:

      'My mother uses Linux with no more trouble than she has with Windows' is my rebuke to `Linux is intrinsically harder to use than Windows', no more.

      But I don't think many people actually think "Linux is intrinsically harder to use than Windows" under the condition that both systems are set up with all the software you need.

      Quote:

      Linux isn't chasing Windows.

      Excuse me, but do I need to remind you of the market share numbers? When someone is losing a race, it doesn't matter if his car is technically superior or if the driver is more skilled - the real, hard truth is that he is chasing the leader.

      Quote:

      IE didn't have tabs until Firefox did. Firefox was written for UNIX operating systems.

      Firefox has always been cross platform. It wasn't written for any single system. But to turn your argument on itself, Firefox didn't have tabs until (before) Opera did. Opera was originally a Windows only program! :o

      But this just illustrates what I was saying: competition is good. Linux and Microsoft (and Apple) need each other.

      Dustin Dettmer
      Matthew said:

      That statement is full of assumptions. I don't pay for my software. Am I a pirate? Nope! Windows has almost as much free software as Linux - and oftentimes the same software. The top applications I run are: OpenOffice, Firefox, Putty, WinSCP, Google Talk, WinAmp, and Homesite (which I did pay $60 for 5 years ago).

      I don't have to worry about viruses, spyware, or malware. And I don't even use any anti-virus software! It's all about common sense. That leads me to my main point...

      If Linux had 95% desktop share, do you think it would really be that much different? Novice users would still buy most of their software from Walmart, because that's what they see when they go shopping. And they would still get viruses because people would write them for Linux. They might not be quite as lethal, but a virus can still be quite damaging even if ran only with user permissions.

      I'm familiar with running Linux for servers, and guess what? They (not mine in particular) are hacked a lot. Why? Because they have a good marketshare and it's a good target. I don't know why Linux fanboys have this desire to see their OS overtake the world. The arguments I've seen for a Linux switch are quite shallow.

      I, and most Windows users who know about Linux, understand that it is a capable operating system. But believe it or not, we've actually tried out Linux and didn't like it! It's rather funny how blind some Linux fanboys are to not comprehend that Linux isn't the savior of the desktop OS. Some people will find one or the other more enjoyable to use. And yes, some people won't even know the difference.

      These "I converted my mom to Linux" stories always amuse me. My mom has never opened a virus on Windows or had spyware. She runs a wireless network that is fed off a shared dialup Linux server. So what? She has 24/7 free tech support. If she's not sure on something, she can call me. She usually doesn't have to though, because I've already "trained" her. "Converting" anyone isn't proof of anything except that they trust you to be their personal administrator.

      Oh, and one last thing: if Linux didn't have Windows to chase, I think it would be a much more stale operating system. Microsoft isn't the only organization that needs competition to be innovative. Linux and Microsoft are both good for each other.

      That could not have been worded better. Especially the bit about linux servers getting hacked a lot.

      Myrdos
      Quote:

      I don't know why Linux fanboys have this desire to see their OS overtake the world.

      I'll field this one:

      -they feel that many of the problems with Linux would be solved if more people used it. More developers would target it, hardware vendors would support it, the desktop would become more polished (more developers, more testing), etc.

      -people naturally want other people to follow their lead, to be convinced that their opinions are correct, and to do as they do.

      Having said that, I use Linux as my primary OS because it is the right tool for me. And if you ask my opinion about Linux vs Windows, or the different distros, I'll give it to you. But I can still remember in the days of DOS when Mac users annoyed the hell out of me trying to get me to switch. So aggravating. The same biased, shallow, repetetive and uninformed arguments over and over again. I could easily see that their views had no basis in reality; it wouldn't matter if it could be proven that 'IBM clones' were better in every measurable way than Macs, or vice versa, their position wouldn't change.

      I see the same tendencies in Linux fanatics today.

      Arthur Kalliokoski
      Quote:

      Drivers being slow IS Linux's fault

      Or you could just read up on the card driver availability before buying it. Let the people vote with their dollars, and the OEM's will listen. glxgears is slow when using the VESA thing in X.

      The only thing that's bugging me about Linux right now is there is NO pdf viewer worth a damn.

      OTOH, windows has so many bugs I can't list them all. Just wasted a whole day trying to get a fullscreen OGL screenmode to work before accidently finding out you need to create and display another window first (such as the "Use fullscreen mode?" message box in the Nehe tutorials). Do the win32.hlp things say anything about this? No?

      Quote:

      DISP_CHANGE_FAILED The display driver failed the specified graphics mode.

      isn't very helpful. No source to find out otherwise?

      Thomas Fjellstrom
      Quote:

      The only thing that's bugging me about Linux right now is there is NO pdf viewer worth a damn.

      How bout KPDF (for kde3), or oKular (for KDE 4, and is in heavy development).

      Marcello

      The KPDF I used at school was crap as far as printing was concerned (no options, didn't print correctly). Which made it a major fail.

      Marcello

      Thomas Fjellstrom

      It has been improved quite a bit in the last few KDE releases, but I haven't tried printing from it at all. I don't have a printer.

      Marcello

      That doesn't do me any good if the school doesn't upgrade, now does it?

      Marcello

      Thomas Fjellstrom

      That was only FYI.

      Archon
      Quote:

      That leads us, Linux users, to advertise Linux to other people.

      So we're like Jahova's Witnesses?

      Rampage

      Why am I always late for the interesting threads?

      I pretty much agree with our benevolent leader. It's been two years since I last used Linux and I don't miss it. Too much work to get it running, while Windows just works.

      Messing with config files is okay when you have lots of free time, but when you don't, it's just foolish to waste hours trying to configure an IDE.

      HoHo
      Quote:

      So we're like Jahova's Witnesses?

      Pretty much. I don't think all of them walk from door to door trying to lure you to join them.

      Quote:

      It's been two years since I last used Linux and I don't miss it

      You have no ideas how much things can change in two years. I'll suggest you to download some livecds to see how far have KDE and Gnome gone since then.
      Of cource you can't see all the goodness of the new package managers without actually installing anything ...

      Ron Ofir
      Quote:

      Um, talk about uninformed :P

      You missed my point. I do like Linux, I use for most things I do (and actually, sound is working better than in Windows! Except for MIDI which doesn't work at all). However, it seems most people who really like Linux and advertise it are either developers who like trying Linux more user-friendly or hardcore control-freaks which think hand editing configuration files is the best thing since sliced bread.

      Oh, and I use Kubuntu so I obviously try to use apt-get (Adept, that is) whenever I can.

      Archon
      Quote:

      Maybe someday Linux will have something comparable to DirectX.

      Why? Then there'd be 2 APIs which would potentially split the game market...

      That is why I like the looks of the Tao Framework. It's like a suite of APIs - just like DirectX.

      Quote:

      Downloading sources from ugly ten years old websites and trying to get them compiled for hours is fun?

      That's why I use Gentoo - it has a nice packaging system.

      Quote:

      Linux isn't chasing Windows. Linux is better than Windows!

      Are we talking about Windows itself or the stuff available for it ;)

      Quote:

      When someone is losing a race, it doesn't matter if his car is technically superior or if the driver is more skilled - the real, hard truth is that he is chasing the leader.

      Not dog races... They chase the rabbit!

      I still however, wish that there was an IDE greater than or equal to MSVS.NET for Linux that can do .NET/Mono/.GNU and maybe C/C++ too.

      Evert

      I missed this before, but...

      Quote:

      Drivers being slow IS Linux's fault, there is the possibility of reerse engineering and making drivers worth a crap.

      You're aware that reverse engineering closed-source drivers is probably illegal, right?

      Quote:

      The graphical performance was pitiful!

      X11 is slow, no way around that. For your information though, I easily get a framerate of 60fps on most Allegro games I've tried.

      Quote:

      Maybe someday Linux will have something comparable to DirectX.

      OpenGL for graphics and ALSA (or OpenAL) for sound pretty much get you there.

      Quote:

      Until then, why would any gamer or game developer switch to Linux as their primary OS?

      Personally, I'm neither. The only games I tend to play are older ones, which work fine through DOS box mostly. If I really have to, I can boot into Windows.

      Quote:

      Yes, I'm sure it is possible to hack around Linux enough to get some sound working

      That's never cost me much trouble, except with crippled hardware such as the new SB Life 24-bit card.

      Quote:

      or get a little better graphical performance via OpenGL (if you can find decent drivers:-/).

      Just get an NVidia card and you're fine. :P

      On a serious note, you do need to take some care in buying your hardware to make sure that it is supported properly. If you do that, things tend to Just Work.

      Quote:

      Messing with config files is okay when you have lots of free time, but when you don't, it's just foolish to waste hours trying to configure an IDE.

      Well, I personally like the fall-back option of editing a configuration file by hand when I can't do it through a dialog box or things don't work. In Windows I just get to click 'ok' in the dialog box telling me something doesn't work.

      Max Savenkov

      My reasons (I've tried all Mandrake versions from 7.0 to 9.1 at home and also had to use Linux at university):

      Hate Emacs. Hate vi. Hate Eclipse. Love Visual Studio.

      Console sux :). Midnight Commander is too old. GNOME Commander (or what was it called?!) is underdeveloped. Total Commander rulez :)

      Had to manually recompile driver for my ADSL modem and spent about a week making it work (I understand that it not a Linux problem, but hardware vendor's... But it's also not MY problem).

      Each and every possilbe program comes in source-only distribution and needs 1-5 libs (which all too need to be downloaded and compiled from sources). Binary distributions are few and not guaranted to work.

      "man" is no match for MSDN. Rily. :)

      Not that I exactly LOVE Windows either, but it gave me less problems. I have Linux installed on VM, so when I need it, I use it from there, but I'm not planning to use it ad everyday desktop system.

      HoHo
      Quote:

      X11 is slow, no way around that. For your information though, I easily get a framerate of 60fps on most Allegro games I've tried.

      I got 1000FPS in q3a ;D
      As for general graphics speed, I can't see much difference in native-games. UT2004 runs just as fast as in XP. Though I've heard that games like WoW actually run faster through Wine than natively in windows for some people :P

      X11 architecture is not as efficient as XP's one. Reason is that in XP, GUI is mostly done in kernel-space and in userspace with X11.

      Though if we start talking about efficiency then this is what Bob said some time ago:

      Bob said:

      DX10 fixes a large portion of this (not quite reaching OpenGL yet, though), enough to make most DX9 applications run faster when emulated on top of DX10.

      As it seems, d3d is not that good compared to opengl :P

      kentl
      Quote:

      How bout KPDF [kpdf.kde.org] (for kde3), or oKular [kpdf.kde.org] (for KDE 4, and is in heavy development).

      Just had to mention that Acrobat Reader (AR) is available for Linux. I've changed from KPDF into AR myself and never looked back. :) That said, I've never printed something from my Linux system as I don't own a printer.

      Kitty Cat
      Quote:

      On a serious note, you do need to take some care in buying your hardware to make sure that it is supported properly. If you do that, things tend to Just Work.

      Of course, if more people used Linux, more hardware would be properly supported.

      That's really my whole thing. People complain about Linux because things aren't "properly" supported, that they may switch to Linux if it gets better vendor support, etc. But they don't say/realize that it's not supported because they're not using it (not that I fully blame them; you're force-fed Windows from the start, so why bother learning/getting used to another OS just to be able to do most of the same things?). That's like saying "I don't like you because they don't like you, and they don't like you because I don't like you". Circular reasoning doesn't get anyone anywhere, and definitely doesn't improve the situation. If more people who would, would just bite the bullet and use Linux, it will in turn, be better supported. It may be hard and rough at first, but nothing worth-while comes easy.

      I like games quite a bit. I used to be a rather serious gamer. But I also preferred what Linux had over Windows. So, do I stay with Windows and hope it gets what I like about Linux, while enjoying my games? Or do I switch, get what I like, then do my part in getting more hardware/software vendors to support Linux to get back the games? Obviously I went with the latter. Sure, it's a bit more work on my part, and I'll need to make some sacrifices, but IMO it'll be worth it. My work and sacrifices won't only benefit me, but others as well.

      I hate it when games are platform-specific for the sole reason that they use a proprietary API, when there are plenty of capable alternatives. I hate it when I miss out on games because the developers only target a single OS which has an obcenely large majority of the computer market, despite other OSs being more than capable of handling the game. I hate it when my options are limited for development because a single OS with an obscenely large majority doesn't follow standards the rest of the computing world uses. But if more people made the same sacrifices as I and some others have done, if more people actually put forth effort to get better support for other systems so they can start competing fairly (instead of just waiting for it to happen by some divine intervention), it will eventually be better. Probably even better than better, as the increased competition will be a cause for improved products.

      Quote:

      But I don't think many people actually think "Linux is intrinsically harder to use than Windows" under the condition that both systems are set up with all the software you need.

      I actually think most people honestly do believe that. And most people who try it and don't like it is usually because it's "not like Windows", so it's harder to use. A person who can objectively look at this would think "Okay, he just prefers a system layout/configuration setup like Windows instead of Linux." But, how many actual computer users would even understand that, let alone think it? You also need to factor in that what most users are accustomed to configuring in Windows are really sensitive settings, and with Linux being a bit more safety/multi-user minded, it takes a bit more work to actually change. This a flaw of Windows, not Linux, though most people wouldn't see it that way.

      Maybe I'm being unfairly critical of the majority of computer users, but I honestly don't think enough people know what non-Windows (or even non-Mac) systems are truely capable of, both in terms of power and ease-of-use.

      As for the whole "if your not with us, you're against us" mentality, I'll freely admit that's an overzealous POV, but it does contain some truth. Sure you may not be technically against us, but you're still hurting our cause (such is the nature of things when a single provider has so much dominance). It would actually take more work to neither hurt nor help the situation. So, while "if your not with us, you're against us" is zealousy, "if you're not helping us, you're hurting us" is quite true given the current situation. If things were more balanced between OSs it'd be different, but it's not, so that's how it is.

      EDIT:

      Quote:

      "man" is no match for MSDN. Rily. :)

      On the contrary, I find "man" much better than MSDN could hope to be. MSDN only covers system-specific things, while "man" covers anything that bothers making a page. "man" is typically more accurate about the stuff it covers than MSDN, and also has a much better layout so it's easier to find the information you're looking for, for a given function.

      Quote:

      Quote:

      X11 is slow, no way around that. For your information though, I easily get a framerate of 60fps on most Allegro games I've tried.

      I got 1000FPS in q3a ;D

      I think he means drawing through Xlib itself, instead of OpenGL. X11 drawing is more analogous to GDI, both of which are horribly slow and not suited for any serious gaming. OpenGL is more analogous to DirectDraw/Direct3D/DirectGraphics.

      gnolam
      Kitty Cat said:

      That's really my whole thing. People complain about Linux because things aren't "properly" supported, that they may switch to Linux if it gets better vendor support, etc. But they don't say/realize that it's not supported because they're not using it (not that I fully blame them; you're force-fed Windows from the start, so why bother learning/getting used to another OS just to be able to do most of the same things?). That's like saying "I don't like you because they don't like you, and they don't like you because I don't like you". Circular reasoning doesn't get anyone anywhere, and definitely doesn't improve the situation. If more people who would, would just bite the bullet and use Linux, it will in turn, be better supported. It may be hard and rough at first, but nothing worth-while comes easy.

      Prisoner's Dilemma, OS version. The best thing to do for me is defect (= stay on Windows), since I can't count on the other prisoner (= the rest of the population) cooperating.
      Besides, it's like voting. It doesn't matter what I do, only what x million other people do.

      Kitty Cat
      Quote:

      The best thing to do for me is stay on Windows, since I can't count on the other prisoner (= the rest of the population) also switching.

      If even half the people who thought "why should I bother, no one else is going to" actually did bother, there'd be a sizeable shift in market use. Such people are hurting the very cause they want to succeed because they're being lazy and/or selfish.

      gnolam

      Yep, I'm lazy and selfish. But read the second paragraph in my previous post.

      Kitty Cat
      Quote:

      It doesn't matter what I do, only what x million other people do.

      Except you are part of the x million other people. By not going forth yourself, you make sure the number will be at least one less than what it would be otherwise. The more poeple who say "okay, I'm gonna do it anyway", the more other poeple will follow suit, and the more people who say "eh, it won't make a difference", the more other people will follow suit.

      jhuuskon

      A new way to market Linux - Blaming people for not switching.

      Way to go, zealots. ::)

      Kitty Cat
      Quote:

      Blaming people for not switching.

      Did you even read what I wrote? Or did you just see my "zealotry" and write off my post?

      Mr. Big

      I like the idea behind Linux.
      I hate Microsoft's monopoly.
      I hate platform-specific programming and DirectX.
      I hate ignorant people who use Windows just because they've never heard of any other OS.
      If only Linux was more popular, I'm sure it would offer everything Windows does PLUS its own unique features.
      But it just isn't.

      I use Windows XP and am not planning to switch to Linux anytime soon.
      Linux currently has too many issues (compared to Windows).
      Operating systems exist to take care of... uhh... system operations for you, not the other way around.
      You can't blame people for choosing Windows over Linux, and you certainly can't tell people to leave their operating systems,
      which work just fine, and move to Linux!
      It's just stupid, if you ask me.
      Moreover, as a gamer, a general computer user and a developer, I must say that Linux doesn't offer anything I need that Windows doesn't.

      In my opinion, the main problem with Linux is lack of support by common hardware and software.
      I doubt this problem will be solved anytime soon, if ever.
      It's just an infinite loop:
      Linux won't become more popular until its issues are resolved, but its issues won't be resolved until it becomes more popular.

      It's all really a matter of timing.
      Do you remember what a piece of crap Windows was?
      But it was one of only options at the time, so people used it, encouraging Microsoft to improve it.
      Linux is a bit too late for that, I'm afraid.

      On the other hand, even a Windows user like me shows some support to Linux by developing and using cross-platform and/or open source applications.
      And I assume most of you do. :)
      And another thing:
      It's a bit off topic, but might be interesting for some.
      In the next year (after this summer vecation), I'm going to take a computer science course in highschool.
      (I'll be in the 10th grade! Yay! :D)
      (The real reason I went to this course is because a decent portion of the timetable will be spent on teaching things I already know, so in the meanwhile I could concentrate on the studies of math and physics.)
      The interesting thing is that the course is promoting Linux, which means we're going to study Linux and write our applications on it.
      This course was a success last year and Allegro was quite popular among the students. :D

      [EDIT]

      Oh my!
      It looked a lot shorter in notepad!

      Trumgottist

      Ah. Well, in that case I am against you.

      Mr. Big

      "you" is a bit general.
      You're against who?

      [EDIT]

      Note that I read all five pages of this thread, and as far as I can tell, not even a single valid reason to switch to Linux has been proposed. (Is that even a valid sentence? Perhaps I should concentrate on English studies next year as well? ;))
      There were many valid reasons why not to, though.

      Kitty Cat
      Quote:

      I'm not going to migrate to an OS which would stand in my way.

      Is it really the OS standing in your way? Or uncooperative hardware/software vendors? I gaurantee that if the roles were reversed (Linux had the market share that Windows does, and vice versa) they wouldn't hesitate to do the same to Windows. It's not the OS's fault that vendors don't support it. They only support what users use (and users only want to use what they support; a nicely vicious circle going on there, no?). Somebody needs to break that circle for any change to occur, and vendors generally won't when money is at stake.

      Quote:

      Do you remember what a piece of crap Windows was?

      I remember what a piece of crap Windows is. ;) <- please note that

      Quote:

      You can't blame people for choosing Windows over Linux, and you certainly can't tell people to leave their operating systems, which work just fine, and move to Linux!

      I do nothing of the sort. I'm just saying that even if you're intensions are good, by using Windows programs, you are helping it keep its dominance. I do understand that people are force-fed Windows from the start, so that's what they're used to and they don't always want to take the initiative to learn another OS. It's not so much the users that don't prefer Linux (I just want them to see what's actually occuring and why), but it's users that do prefer Linux but don't use it because vendors don't support it. They don't support it because you're not using it. If all the people that honestly wanted to learn and use Linux exclusively did so, then I'm pretty sure things would be noticeably better in terms of vendor support.

      Quote:

      Ah. Well, in that case I am against you.

      ... which just goes to show, you didn't read what I wrote. :P

      Archon

      Question: Should we all make brilliant (closed source) programs for Linux so that more users and businesses would have to use Linux to access these tools like Windows and their developers have done?

      HoHo

      Well, all the programs I've done during last two years have been Linux-only*. Only problem with them is that they are not brilliant enough. I do have a few ideas that are truly great, though. Before you ask, no, they are not MMORPG's, they are something more like MMORPGRTSFPSTBS ;)

      *) Actually I just haven't bothered to make them work on anything but my own PC :P

      Mr. Big

      I agree with you, Kitty Cat.
      It's definitely not the operating system's fault.
      But that doesn't make my life easier whatsoever!
      I have pointed that out several times.
      So why should I, as a computer user who just wants to get something done, care who's fault it is?

      Vendors won't "break the circle" for obvious economic reasons.
      But don't forget, time is money, and that same rule applies to users who need to get a job done on their computer as well!
      And even if I'd switch to Linux now, it'd take quite a while until the rest of the world does.
      So I just don't.
      This definitely is not a unique situation.
      There are many situations like that, most of them exist for decades.
      But people just won't take the first step.
      They just won't!

      "...it's users that do prefer Linux but don't use it because vendors don't support it..."
      I've pointed that out as well.
      And I won't start using Linux until vendors start supporting it.

      [EDIT]

      Archon and Hoho, making something Linux-only is even more stupid than making something Windows-only.
      Much more stupid, in fact.
      Very unprofitable!
      Instead of promoting Linux, your game will be ignored by the vast majority.
      Which is why I vote for cross-platformability!
      You lose nothing, only earn!
      And maybe if applications start supporting Linux, vendors will start supporting it too.

      gnolam
      Kitty Cat said:

      Except you are part of the x million other people. By not going forth yourself, you make sure the number will be at least one less than what it would be otherwise. The more poeple who say "okay, I'm gonna do it anyway", the more other poeple will follow suit, and the more people who say "eh, it won't make a difference", the more other people will follow suit.

      Even if we pretend that one single user more is going to count (it won't), the fact is that there is nothing to gain for me. You've admitted yourself that vendor support is crap. Why should I take a leap of faith and inconvenience myself in the blind hope that it will improve in the future?

      Switching, losses and gains:

      • -

      • Time (in short supply) and effort in setting up a new system.

      • Learning curve (see above).

      • Having to give up gaming and a bunch of programs I use.

      • A quite real possibility of pieces of hardware not working.

      • Various UI quirks (e.g. spotty cut & paste functionality) I'm not going to get used to.

    • +
      • [/list]</li>

        If it makes you feel any better, I actually tried out a Kubuntu LiveCD a few months back, just to see if things had improved since the last time I gave Linux a half-hearted try. I'm assuming it hasn't, since I couldn't even get the damned thing to work...

        [EDIT]
        Various edits.

        Kitty Cat
        Quote:

        not even a single valid reason to switch to Linux has been proposed.

        Being dominated by a single OS is not good for a market to thrive. Competition is essential for innovation and improvements, otherwise you get stagnation (for example, most people still use unaccelerated desktops despite hardware acceleration existing for at least a decade). Windows didn't need it, so no one bothered to work on it.

        Quote:

        Should we all make brilliant (closed source) programs for Linux so that more users and businesses would have to use Linux to access these tools like Windows and their developers have done?

        IMO, the best bet is to get something like Wine working well. That way, the people that want to, can move to Linux and not lose their programs, and encourage proper vendor support. But this won't happen as long as Microsoft doesn't want it to (to get the necessary information for such a project, you have to sign NDA; and since they're in control, they can easilly change things for the next Windows version to keep Wine significantly behind).

        EDIT:

        Quote:

        Even if we pretend that one single user more is going to count (it won't), the fact is that there is nothing to gain for me.

        As I pointed out, the more people that use it, the more other people will as well. It's not just you, if you can convince other people to (oh, but wait.. saying any OS is awesome other than Windows is just zealousness*). * Not directed at you, just seems to be a general attitude amo ng die-hard Windows users.

        And there is a benefit for you, as it will encourage fair competition, which will encourage better OSs, which will encourage better hardware to take advante of the improved OSs, etc.. all the while, having prices fall as it will actually be a deciding factor for some people. Unless you don't think better, cheaper OSs, with better, cheaper hardware, isn't something of a gain for you. :P

        Evert

        For all you people saying Linux is `not supported', bear in mind that Linux (or in general, some flavour of UNIX) is used quite a bit in academic circles, for workstations and computer clusters. It is very well supported in that area.

        As for valid reasons to use Windows or Linux, there are no objective reasons, only subjective ones.

        Mr. Big

        Brilliant programs for Linux?
        You can't develop a brilliant program for an OS that doesn't support half of your computer's hardware and has no vendor support.
        And even if you do, what on makes you think people will switch to Linux just for that?
        You think they'll give up everything just to use your program?
        And where's the proof that your program is really that good?
        Not going to happen.
        And best for last, brilliant programs are developed by brilliant companies (or people), who are too brilliant to give up 90% of their profit for a futile try to promote Linux.

        [EDIT]

        No vendor support is a valid reason not to use Linux, Evert.
        The fact that most of my favorite programs won't work on it is a valid reason as well.
        The fact that switching takes alot of time with little to no reward is a valid reason as well.

        [EDIT]
        Oh, we were talking about objective and subjective reasons.
        Well, since there are no objective reasons, we'll have to count the subjective ones.

        [EDIT]

        The only things that can save Linux are cross-platformability and projects such as the one in my highschool, if you read my first post in this thread.
        So get real.

        Kitty Cat
        Quote:

        You can't develop a brilliant program for an OS that doesn't support half of your computer's hardware and has no vendor support.

        Luckilly we don't live in an age where you need to develop for specific hardware (aside from working around driver bugs). Just pick your API, and use it. OpenGL is supported and accelerated on Linux, Windows, and Mac, so you don't lose anything there. OpenAL is supported on Linux, Windows, and Mac, and is accelerated on at least Windows, so you don't lose much there either. There's plenty of cross-platform wrapper libs for input, networking, and audio input, so you don't lose anything there either.

        There's no problem developing on/for Linux, as long as you don't use closed, proprietary APIs.

        Inphernic

        Here's one of my adventures in a nutshell (true story):

        I was hired by one company to evaluate the possibility of migrating from MS Office to Star-/OpenOffice. My verdict was "not recommended", and the company stayed with MS Office. 8-)

        Mr. Big

        Kitty Cat, START READING THE POSTS!
        An application developed using cross-platform APIs is not Linux-only, is it?
        Stop your random rants.

        LennyLen

        I've noticed that whenever anyone mentions good games for linux, they invariably only ever mention FPS games. Are there any decent (ie. polished, reasonably bug-free) RTS or RPG games? The reason being that I absolutely hate the FPS genre.

        gnolam
        Kitty Cat said:

        [quote I]Even if we pretend that one single user more is going to count (it won't), the fact is that there is nothing to gain for me.

        As I pointed out, the more people that use it, the more other people will as well. It's not just you, if you can convince other people to (oh, but wait.. saying any OS is awesome other than Windows is just zealousness*). * Not directed at you, just seems to be a general attitude amo ng die-hard Windows users.

        And there is a benefit for you, as it will encourage fair competition, which will encourage better OSs, which will encourage better hardware to take advante of the improved OSs, etc.. all the while, having prices fall as it will actually be a deciding factor for some people. Unless you don't think better, cheaper OSs, with better, cheaper hardware, isn't something of a gain for you. :P
        </quote>
        Those are not causal relations. ::)
        And even if it were, it would be some kind of weird inverse tragedy of the commons scenario - I would still reap a slightly decreased benefit while experiencing none of the inconveniences of switching now.

        Archon

        LennyLen: Look up Warzone 2100 because I think that it's now free.

        Evert
        Quote:

        No vendor support is a valid reason not to use Linux, Evert.

        Reread what I said above. Linux is used extensively in academia and it most definately is supported. Now, if you want to modify no support to less support, we can talk. But then, buying compatible hardware in the first place isn't that hard.

        Quote:

        The fact that most of my favorite programs won't work on it is a valid reason as well.

        Yes, but it's hardly an objective reason, is it?

        Quote:

        The only things that can save Linux

        'save'? From what?

        Quote:

        My verdict was "not recommended"

        Fair enough. I just hope you actually did some fair comparison and backed it up?

        LennyLen
        Quote:

        LennyLen: Look up Warzone 2100 because I think that it's now free.

        Looks interesting (perhaps I'll download the Windows version ;) ).

        I do intend to return to university to finish my COSC degree when I've saved up enough money to be able to study without needing to work part-time (I don't want to extend my already huge student loan). At that point, I'll probably install linux again. Hopefully there will be more RTS and RPG games available for it then (not that I should be playing them of course).

        Mr. Big

        Evert, I'm aware of the fact that it's used in academia.
        But that doesn't make it better nor much more popular.
        And why would people bother buying compatible hardware?
        They already have Windows and Linux has many other issues.

        Kitty Cat
        Quote:

        An application developed using cross-platform APIs is not Linux-only, is it?

        It can be. If I develop a program using open, cross-platform APIs, then only release a Linux binary, it won't run on Windows, will it? Just like people can develop a program using open, cross-platform APIs, then only release a Windows binary. And please stop yelling, there's no need for it.

        Quote:

        Those are not causal relations. ::)

        Perhaps not, but it's a very likely progression. Do you honestly think Windows wouldn't be any better if it had real competition through the late 90s to today? Microsoft wouldn't go "oh wow, they're doing some interesting things, and poeple are buying into it. but we don't need it, so don't worry about it."

        Mr. Big

        I wasn't yelling.
        I was emphasizing. :)
        I agree with your point about progression, though.
        That's why I said I hate Microsoft's monopoly.

        HoHo
        Quote:

        games. Are there any decent (ie. polished, reasonably bug-free) RTS or RPG games?

        Good? Probably. Bug free and poished? Not exactly :)
        http://www.openttd.org/ <- not exactly RTS but somewhat close
        http://taspring.clan-sy.com/

        [edit]

        Quote:

        An application developed using cross-platform APIs is not Linux-only, is it?

        Why should anyone write platform-specific programs using cross-platform API's?

        Inphernic
        Quote:

        Fair enough. I just hope you actually did some fair comparison and backed it up?

        Yeah, actually, I did - I tested quite a number of files for interoperability issues, studied other MSO->OO cases worldwide and wrote a 'proper' document with pros and cons, with sources mentioned where practical experience and testing was not at play. In my opinion I gave it a fair chance, and besides - I take work seriously and try hard to be as neutral as possible/not to let my own preferences come into play.

        Don't worry, I didn't give it a "no" just to piss on OSS' feet. ;) OO has some good points to it, but in this case, the cons outweighed the pros. I'm not saying that OO can't replace MSO, but it's definitely not a suitable replacement everywhere.

        Trezker

        Ever heard that women has to do things twice as good as men to be seen as equals?

        Well, that's the situation Linux is in. To make people switch, linux has to become so awesome that it's irresistable.

        Kitty Cat
        Quote:

        Why should anyone write platform-specific programs using cross-platform API's?

        I dunno, I think it's pretty stupid myself. I was just playing devil's advocate. :) I would, however, equate it to using platform-specific APIs with cross-platform hardware.

        Evert
        Quote:

        And why would people bother buying compatible hardware?

        Eh... well, to have it actually work?

        Quote:

        They already have Windows and Linux has many other issues.

        If by other issues you mean `works differently from Windows', that's not an issue. If by issue you mean `not all hardware works', we've been there.

        Anyway, I've said it before and I'll say it again (not to anyone in particular): use whichever system you prefer, for whichever reason you prefer it. Telling people that you will not use system X `because it just sucks (TM)' is both stupid and insulting. Telling people that they should switch to $some_system because of $random_reason is increadibly annoying. Both are flamebait.

        HoHo
        Quote:

        To make people switch, linux has to become so awesome that it's irresistable.

        Similar to OSX?
        ;)

        LennyLen

        That looks promising. It's a shame that it requires Total Annihilation to run it. (I also only have the minimum specs needed to run it, and I've played a few games that say they run on a GeForce 4 MX that don't).

        Mr. Big

        There's absolutely nothing about Linux that makes it a better choice than Windows for most users in the first place.
        And trying to make Windows users switch to Linux is absolutely ridiculous.
        This conversation futile.
        Have a nice day.

        HoHo
        Quote:

        There's absolutely nothing about Linux that makes it a better choice than Windows for most users in the first place.

        Price?

        For some people the price of Windows is a months salary, you know

        Marcello

        I'm guessing it'll be at least 5-10 years before linux is a viable competitor (in the desktop market).

        edit: If $140 is a month's salary, you shouldn't be using computers. =P

        Marcello

        Mr. Big

        Good point, Hoho.
        I get all my software for free, so I haven't thought of that.
        You must admit that you're exaggerating a bit, though.
        Anyway, your point makes it 200 times more ridiculous to try make Windows users switch to Linux.

        Jakub Wasilewski

        Let's step away from the Linux/Windows problem and concentrate a little on psychology. First of all, people dislike change. If something is already in place and it works, we aare unlikely to change it, unless something exists to outweigh this dislike.

        So, in order to make somebody switch systems, whether it will be a Linux->Windows, Windows->Mac, or whichever possible combination, you have to offer positive incentive for me to switch. It is not even sufficient if there are no drawbacks. Even if I could do everything on Linux just as well as I can on Windows, I will ask about something that Linux does better for me - not just as good, better. There has to be some advantage that effectively makes it plausible to switch, and many can be named, for example:

        - better shell, established toolchains
        - better customizability, more options to choose from almost in any regard
        - increased security
        - running servers is just easier, and there is more too choose from
        - it's free

        However, none of those apply to me. I'm already using a linux shell and many development tools like gcc, sed, make and so forth. I found that the main reason for me using Linux's customizability was to make it more like Windows. I don't need increased security - the one time I stumbled on a virus on Windows, I was able to take care of it myself, without using any antivirus software. I don't run any servers, except for an Apache/MySQL/Mercury/Filezilla setup that I use for developing web pages/applications - and that is a localhost sandbox. Linux being free also doesn't concern me much: I can afford one copy of Windows per several years, and now I don't even have to. As an IT student I get them for free through the MS Academic Alliance thing.

        See, I have yet to find a definitive reason to make the jump. I would be able to bear with the drawbacks, if I had found something to make up for them. I have yet to find that unique advantage.

        I also don't believe that I should make the switch because of the "cause" that is behind it. Even if we (meaning the people) could get Linux to have a significant market share, this would be quickly recognized by companies. This would quickly end up in a situation where game and application developing companies would make deals with Linux-based OS dealers (say, Redhat or whomever), ensuring that their programs work properly only on paid-for versions of Linux. Or, they'll find some other way to make them pay. An OS with 30% market share is just to juicy a target to leave it alone.

        Still, even if that threat wasn't present, I don't believe that fighting for Linux is worth a crusade to make it more popular. I'm certainly more concerned about my own comfort of using the computer than about some OS having dominance over the other.

        I'm all for developing cross-platform applications. In my opinion, a better solution is to write everything in a way that makes the discussion irrelevant. There are many portable APIs for everything, these are just examples: OpenGL for graphics, FMOD or OpenAL for sound, SDL for generic gaming stuff, Qt or wxWindows for GUI. Actually, most of the free libraries I known of are portable at least to Linux and Windows, and many of them are written in a way that makes porting them to different systems sufficiently straight-forward.

        I always try to make my apps run on every plausible platform, and I believe this is the only plausible solution for sealing the Windows/Linux divide. We should try to convince companies to develop portable applications, so that everyone can get what they want on the system they like, not convince users to switch systems.

        Matt Smith
        Quote:

        f by other issues you mean `works differently from Windows', that's not an issue.

        In many ways it is. Windows' UI has evolved over the years to be the sum total of all (ok 95%) of user's preferences.

        The 'Killer App' for me is still MSVS and the lovely debugger. When Kdevelop finds a way of working that nicely with gdb (or another debugger. disassemblers aren't hard to write) then I'm not likely to boot Windows anymore except for testing.

        HoHo
        Quote:

        edit: If $140 is a month's salary, you shouldn't be using computers. =P

        I can get a fairly decent PC for $50-$100. Heck, there are people who are giving away their "old" P200's for free!

        Quote:

        You must admit that you're exaggerating a bit, though.

        Not at all. My own salary is much bigger, of cource. For one month work I can get four XP's but my salary is a bit higher than average in Estonia. Also, Estonia is not the puorest country there is.

        [edit]
        Btw, does anyone know the average income of the World, or perhaps some groups of countreis like EU, Western World, 3'rd world etc. Especially nice would be to get nuber of people in those countreis too.

        Mr. Big

        Jakub, your opinion is similar to mine in many ways, as you can see if you read my first post in this thread.

        [EDIT]

        You're lucky, Hoho.
        In my country, a decent computer costs like your monthly salary and a decent development computer costs 5 times your salary.
        My current computer used to cost twice your salary about three years ago.
        I got it for free, though.

        BAF
        Quote:

        You're aware that reverse engineering closed-source drivers is probably illegal, right?

        That doesn't seem to stop them with other drivers. For example, the BCM43xx driver (which is still only half complete) came about by a group who decompiled the Windows driver, documented what it did, then another group wrote it for linux based on the documentation.

        Quote:

        On a serious note, you do need to take some care in buying your hardware to make sure that it is supported properly. If you do that, things tend to Just Work.

        So you have to research to find good hardware that is ALSO Linux compatible? I'm sorry, but if Linux wants to be a viable desktop equivalent to Windows, it should be supporting all the hardware Windows does.

        Quote:

        Well, I personally like the fall-back option of editing a configuration file by hand when I can't do it through a dialog box or things don't work. In Windows I just get to click 'ok' in the dialog box telling me something doesn't work.

        Personally, I've never wished there were config files on Windows. The GUIs normally just work, and if not, there is likely a well known solution just a Google away. On linux you'd have to dig through docs to find out what to change in the config file, ask in a Linux channel, or Google anyway.

        Quote:

        That's really my whole thing. People complain about Linux because things aren't "properly" supported, that they may switch to Linux if it gets better vendor support, etc. But they don't say/realize that it's not supported because they're not using it (not that I fully blame them; you're force-fed Windows from the start, so why bother learning/getting used to another OS just to be able to do most of the same things?). That's like saying "I don't like you because they don't like you, and they don't like you because I don't like you". Circular reasoning doesn't get anyone anywhere, and definitely doesn't improve the situation. If more people who would, would just bite the bullet and use Linux, it will in turn, be better supported. It may be hard and rough at first, but nothing worth-while comes easy.

        I see what you're saying, but why should you expect people to use a half-assed setup that doesn't support or utilize their hardware when they can use Windows and it will Just Work?

        Quote:

        Is it really the OS standing in your way? Or uncooperative hardware/software vendors? I gaurantee that if the roles were reversed (Linux had the market share that Windows does, and vice versa) they wouldn't hesitate to do the same to Windows. It's not the OS's fault that vendors don't support it. They only support what users use (and users only want to use what they support; a nicely vicious circle going on there, no?). Somebody needs to break that circle for any change to occur, and vendors generally won't when money is at stake.

        And I'm willing to say, even if the roles were reversed, I'd likely still use Windows, just because I'm used to it and it works for me. I prefer Window's way of operations over Linux. Why would you want to switch from something that works to something that you're not used to?

        Quote:

        Being dominated by a single OS is not good for a market to thrive. Competition is essential for innovation and improvements, otherwise you get stagnation (for example, most people still use unaccelerated desktops despite hardware acceleration existing for at least a decade). Windows didn't need it, so no one bothered to work on it.

        In who's place? My use of the dominant OS gives me the most software and hardware options, very good support, and generally no problems. While I do agree that competition is good, I can see where Linux competes a tiny bit with Windows. However, in your example, why do we need hardware accelerated desktops? Everybody pisses and moans because Vista has a 3d accelerated desktop system (I am not even sure if I like the idea or not), yet when Linux does it it's the Next Best Thing?

        Quote:

        And there is a benefit for you, as it will encourage fair competition, which will encourage better OSs, which will encourage better hardware to take advante of the improved OSs, etc.. all the while, having prices fall as it will actually be a deciding factor for some people. Unless you don't think better, cheaper OSs, with better, cheaper hardware, isn't something of a gain for you.

        I don't care about competition. My system works fine the way I want it to. My OS is already paid for, so I don't care about prices (pricing isnt that bad anyhow). And how will OS competition lead to lower hardware prices?

        Quote:

        I was hired by one company to evaluate the possibility of migrating from MS Office to Star-/OpenOffice. My verdict was "not recommended", and the company stayed with MS Office.

        ;D

        Quote:

        It can be. If I develop a program using open, cross-platform APIs, then only release a Linux binary, it won't run on Windows, will it? Just like people can develop a program using open, cross-platform APIs, then only release a Windows binary. And please stop yelling, there's no need for it.

        Heh, it won't run on most Linux setups either. IMO, that's another major flaw of Linux.

        Quote:

        I would, however, equate it to using platform-specific APIs with cross-platform hardware.

        What cross-platform hardware? I don't see any :P

        Quote:

        Btw, does anyone know the average income of the World, or perhaps some groups of countreis like EU, Western World, 3'rd world etc. Especially nice would be to get nuber of people in those countreis too.

        Irrelevant. We need the average income of computer users. If somebody is concerned about where they can live or where their next meal is coming from, they have no business even thinking about owning a computer. Nothing against them.. I feel bad for them, but if they own a computer when they can't even eat, that's just ignorant.

        Anyhow, a popular argument for Linux (still not valid) is that it has improved a lot over the years. Well, so has Windows.

        Marcello

        On a side note, the vista 3d accelerated desktop is really nice. Finally no more glitches with translucent windows/menus/tooltips/shadows/etc. Plus them working with video is a nice touch. Everything just seems to run more consistently.

        Marcello

        BAF

        I'm still split about wether or not I should upgrade to Vista... I dont know if I should wait until Service Pack 1, if I should just upgrade when it's released, or what. And I'm not sure if I will upgrade anyway, it depends on if it's full of DRM and all that crazy shit everyone (mostly anti-MS zealots) says.

        Matthew Leverton

        I think a lot of Linux users don't realize that OS X is more likely to compete with Windows than Linux ever will (at least in nations where people have money). Linux users have this weird idea that most people don't want to pay for stuff that works. They also tend to forget that it almost always takes money to get people to use your product - even if it's free! (Exceptions would be software that helps you steal things and easy-to-install social gadgets.) So saying the main reason to switch to Linux is to provide a competitor for Microsoft is meaningless. If I wanted to be part of some mystical rebel force, I'd align with Apple. At least their stuff works without having to edit crap files.

        Linux provides good competition to Microsoft on the server market. I'd rather see Linux continue to improve there. I couldn't care less about a third desktop operating system.

        Trent Gamblin

        I don't mind paying for software. If Linux cost $100 I'd still use it. But it doesn't and most of the software I use doesn't cost a thing either. The only non-free software I have on my Linux partition is Nero, although I hear other people have no problems with k3b/gnometoaster/etc.

        OICW

        #include <std_disclaimer>
        I didn't read the whole thread

        Quote:

        Too lazy

        I second that.

        Ok now serious, I already managed to install Ubuntu and get my wireless card running which was the only objection against Linux. Right now I stopped working on my Linux switch, because I decided to wait for a new notebook to come into my hands, which will be hopefully shipped without OS, so I'll begin from a scratch, installing Linux as primary OS and Win2k as secondary for Windows porting and few other things.

        Simon Parzer

        Linux is no office system because you can't run Microsoft Office.
        Linux is no gaming system because most commercial games won't work very well.

        It is however a stable platform for servers, and it is a great help if you are a non-Windows software developer (e.g. web developer).

        In my opinion you shouldn't convince random people about switching to Linux, they will only be disappointed. But you can always show it to people that are disappointed with Windows.. Hackers, friends of the command line (former UNIX or DOS users), ...

        To sum it up, saying "tell me reasons to not switch to Linux" is IMO the wrong way. Why should a person that is happy using Microsoft Windows try something new? Most "normal" people I know are using Windows only for surfing the internet and creating MS Office documents (or sometimes for games). They don't need Linux.

        OICW

        Simon: I know very large group of people who use Windows and are satisfied with them. They also look at me when I say I'm going to switch on Linux as I'm crazy or something like that.

        Thomas Fjellstrom
        Quote:

        If $140 is a month's salary, you shouldn't be using computers.

        XP Home (Full) costs around $300 here. Not a months salary, but it is half of my monthly living allowance. And believe me, I will NOT run XP Home, Pro sometimes, but never Home.

        Theres Linux zealots and Windows zealots, and lazy zealots who don't like change.

        I switched because Windows was a pain in the ass to develop on, I DIDN'T have an OS for my new hardware (stupid OEM CD), and I wasn't willing to shell out for 98 when I had another option available.

        Use what you want and shut up :)

        Matthew Leverton

        XP Prof OEM costs $150. You can just buy a screw with it. It's still a lot of money, but over the course of four years (which is what a computer lasts me), it's not much at all.

        Thomas Fjellstrom

        $249.99 (Windows XP Professional Upgrade With Service Pack 2)

        $399.99 (Windows XP Professional Edition With Service Pack 2)

        Yeah, that looks like $150 to me. You can't buy OEM without a computer (or if you cheat the system, a keyboard or something).

        (note, this is in CAD)

        BAF

        $176... a little more than the $150 it is in the US but not that much.

        And you CAN buy OEM without a computer. I know, for example, newegg just tosses in a random cable or something if you buy OEM.

        Thomas Fjellstrom
        Quote:

        And you CAN buy OEM without a computer.

        That would be cheating the system.

        BAF

        How so? If it was, wouldn't MS have caught on by now and put a halt to it? IMO, it's the smart way to go.

        Victor Williams Stafusa da Silva

        I just read the firsts posts, so i'm not sure if someone pointed that or not:

        1. There are too much distros, and deciding which one to get is not so simple. Distro A may have a good support for Z but crappy for Y and distro B has a good Y and a crappy Z. And if i decide to get some Distro, if I'm unlucky that one would be discontinued or may become a crappy distro in two or three years. (I may in theory hack the distro to make everything work, but just the linux gurus know how to make this correctly, which of course excludes 99.99% of the mortals.)

        2. There are many commercial business-specific database softwares where the designers simply don't care about Linux and writes windows-specific* softwares. These softwares may be too business-specific and complex which makes efforts to porting or rewriting it unpractical. This is due mainly to Delphi, VB, ASP and .NET popularity which are highly non-portable.

        O course, #2 may be workaround by windows-emulators. But the main problem is still that stupid half-brained people who think typing in MS Word are too hard and don't know the difference between hardware and software, and even don't want to know. This happens more frequently to people which worked for 20 years in papers and typewriters are forced to use computers.

        (* Surprisingly, i still see people using and creating that text-mode DOS applications even today). There are some cobol and dbase programmers which stoped in the time making software for users who don't know how to distinguish software and hardware.

        Thomas Fjellstrom
        Quote:

        How so? If it was, wouldn't MS have caught on by now and put a halt to it?

        Technically the wording in the agreement that MS has put out for OEM coppies allows such things. But it goes against the intention of the agreement. Its the same as not paying. OEM coppies are meant to be delivered with Full PCs, not a cable.

        Matthew Leverton
        Quote:

        Yeah, that looks like $150 to me. You can't buy OEM without a computer (or if you cheat the system, a keyboard or something).

        You can buy it with a free screw or a cable. If it were cheating the system, big vendors wouldn't do that. It has to be bought with some hardware, that's all. (But it's really a rabbit trail. If you are looking for a new OS, you are likely at least purchasing a new motherboard [ie, computer].) OEM is non-transferable, unlike retail. That's the big difference. The basic idea is that it lives with the computer it is first installed on. And considering a techie is more likely to upgrade his computer than to replace it, that isn't even a restriction.

        $137 @ http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16832116059

        Very affordable, especially if you plan on using it for at least four years.

        Thomas Fjellstrom
        Quote:

        $137. Very affordable, especially if you plan on using it for at least four years.

        Not if you can barely afford the hardware itself, and half of it was a gift.

        Quote:

        If it were cheating the system, big vendors wouldn't do that.

        If it weren't cheating they wouldn't need to sell it with something else. OEM means Original Equipment Manufacturer, like a Beige Box PC company, Its meant to be sold WITH a PC. You're exploiting a loop hole in the OEM agreement, thats all.

        Also, Newegg doesn't ship to Canada.

        BAF
        Quote:

        There are too much distros, and deciding which one to get is not so simple. Distro A may have a good support for Z but crappy for Y and distro B has a good Y and a crappy Z. And if i decide to get some Distro, if I'm unlucky that one would be discontinued or may become a crappy distro in two or three years. (I may in theory hack the distro to make everything work, but just the linux gurus know how to make this correctly, which of course excludes 99.99% of the mortals.)

        Most stuff should work on most distros.

        Quote:

        If it weren't cheating they wouldn't need to sell it with something else. OEM means Original Equipment Manufacturer, like a Beige Box PC company, Its meant to be sold WITH a PC. You're exploiting a loop hole in the OEM agreement, thats all.

        If MS cared, they would change the agreement to prohibit that. As ML said, OEM is non-transferable. Plus, IIRC, another major difference with OEM is that it is no longer MS's responsiblity to provide tech support for it.

        Matthew Leverton

        For the most part, you're just being stubborn. You just don't want to admit it costs half of what you claim it does. :)

        I believe the latest license now is that OEM software (when individually sold to an end user) must come with a CPU, case, motherboard, and hard drive, and be pre-installed. I know the original XP OEM license simply stated that it must be sold with "non-peripheral" hardware. I don't know which version currently applies to XP.

        But for self-builders, I don't even see this as an issue. It's a silly restriction because one could easily take an existing computer, put an OEM OS on it, and then legally sell it. Who's to say when you upgrade your computer you don't sell it to yourself? So again, the main difference with OEM is that it's tied to the hardware it's installed to.

        But regardless of your position on whether or not this "cheats" the system, you can obtain a legal, valid license key for a professional XP OS for less than $150. And that's well worth the cost if you like and use the OS.

        Thomas Fjellstrom
        Baf said:

        If MS cared, they would change the agreement to prohibit that.

        Matthew said:

        I believe the latest license now is that OEM software (when individually sold to an end user) must come with a CPU, case, motherboard, and hard drive, and be pre-installed.

        Quote:

        And that's well worth the cost if you like and use the OS.

        Well, I neither like, nor use it. so eh.

        Carrus85
        Tomasu said:

        I switched because Windows was a pain in the ass to develop on

        ML said:

        But regardless of your position on OEM, you can obtain a legal, valid license key for a professional XP OS for less than $150. And that's well worth the cost if you like and use the OS.

        Behold the rub!

        BAF
        Quote:

        I believe the latest license now is that OEM software (when individually sold to an end user) must come with a CPU, case, motherboard, and hard drive, and be pre-installed.

        Does that mean we won't be able to get OEM copies of Vista if we decide to switch?

        Matthew Leverton
        Quote:

        Does that mean we won't be able to get OEM copies of Vista if we decide to switch?

        I'm sure you'll still be able to because the online distributors aren't the OEM police*. They are selling to system builders (ie, you) who are responsible for upholding the license. (You are the one opening up the shrink-wrap that says "I Agree to the license.") Install the OEM version on a PC. Sell the computer to your mom for 1 penny. Then she can give it back to you. Now you're legal.

        * Disclaimer: that is my assumption, because there are huge distributors that Microsoft surely knows about that let you buy OEM stand alone.

        Evert
        Quote:

        Windows' UI has evolved over the years to be the sum total of all (ok 95%) of user's preferences.

        I'm not sure that's true. I think it's more that 95% of the users have grown to expect a UI to look and feel as Windows does. It's easy-of-usability through familiarity.

        Quote:

        if Linux wants to be a viable desktop equivalent to Windows, it should be supporting all the hardware Windows does.

        It typically does, unless the hardware is so new that there are no drivers for it yet, or so obscure that there is no one to write one.

        Quote:

        I don't mind paying for software. If Linux cost $100 I'd still use it.

        Ditto. The reason I only use Open Source software is not that it's free, nor that I can tweak the source (who has ever done that anyway?) The reason is convenience: if I need a piece of software for some task, it's a simple matter of downloading and installing it. Takes a few seconds or a few minutes.

        Quote:

        And you CAN buy OEM without a computer.

        Yes, you can. My OEM Windows XP CD (yes, I do own a legal copy of Windows XP) has this nice message printed on it saying 'may only be sold with a new computer' though. Guess what I did not buy it with.

        Quote:

        I think a lot of Linux users don't realize that OS X is more likely to compete with Windows

        Oh, quite possible. I actually like OS X fairly well, because I can use it as a more or less normal UNIX system. I understand that's actually one of its strengths: to people used to UNIX systems, it's a UNIX system with a flashy GUI (X11 integration could be better though, if you ask me); to people used to normal desktop systems, it's a desktop system with a UNIX system inside.

        Dustin Dettmer

        Now OSX has a UI I really like. My only complaint is that there isnt a apt-get or yum or anything to install open source software with.

        There isnt one that you can download for osx is there?

        FMC

        The problem fact is that most people simply don't have a reason to switch to linux, take for example the average a.cc surfer:
        -he has already payed (or has a pirated copy) of windowsXp installed
        -he knows how to use windows efficiently
        -security is not an issue, as he is proficient enough (i for example simply use an, updated with latest patches, winxp pro sp2 + antivir and i can't recall the last time i got a virus)

        I personally also like to play games, even new games... why on earth should i switch to linux?
        I tried, twice with installed distros, and every now and then with knoppix, but all i got was that i had to relearn my way around the os (fight to get things like 3d acceleration working) and around the new programs (which i had to look for), i couldn't play games and didn't gain a thing...

        Thomas Fjellstrom
        Quote:

        There isnt one that you can download for osx is there?

        Fink maybe?

        Evert
        Quote:

        My only complaint is that there isnt a apt-get or yum or anything to install open source software with.

        Install fink. This will let you do 'fink install package' to install source packages, or 'apt-get package' to install binary packages.

        BAF

        I'm just fine for security, I run XP pro SP2, windows defender and that's it. No Windows firewall, no software firewall, no antivirus. My Linux Router (another good use for linux) takes care of routing/firewalling/lots of handy features, and common sense is all that's needed to prevent viruses. I've only gotten one in the whole time I've used a computer (and I had the feeling that the program I was running was a virus).

        Quote:

        I'm not sure that's true. I think it's more that 95% of the users have grown to expect a UI to look and feel as Windows does. It's easy-of-usability through familiarity.

        Same can be said about Linux. I find KDE as klunky as you find Windows.

        Thomas Fjellstrom

        Having a firewall gets rid of MOST of the viruses you can get. Any Firewall. Especially if it isn't susceptible to common exploits.

        Half the time people get viruses just after connecting to the internet, without even visiting any pages.

        BAF

        Don't viruses have to be run to get in? I thought it was mostly worms/RPC exploits you got if connected directly w/o firewall... and I don't think worms are considered virii, just malware.

        Thomas Fjellstrom
        Quote:

        I thought it was mostly worms/RPC exploits you got if connected directly w/o firewall...

        Viruses, Worms, and Trojans utilize exploits to get in, in the first place.

        Quote:

        and I don't think worms are considered virii, just malware.

        How many worms have virus payloads? ;)

        kdevil

        Late to the thread as always, I'll just say that I recently stopped dual-booting my computer between XP and Ubuntu, and now exclusively use Ubuntu (while still able to run XP through VMWare for one or two rarely-used but still important programs, and to compile stuff for Windows).

        Incidentally, wireless and everything worked right from the start.

        Kitty Cat
        Quote:

        I see what you're saying, but why should you expect people to use a half-assed setup that doesn't support or utilize their hardware when they can use Windows and it will Just Work?

        I've not had any issue with Linux not "Just Working". The only time I've had to tweak things is when a kernel upgrade broke a driver (for which I just jumped in and fixed it myself, no need to wait for the people who made the driver to fix it), or when I want to do something that would be just as difficult, if not moreso, if not even impossible, on Windows.

        Not everyone will see a benefit in that, but I, and others, do.

        Quote:

        I prefer Window's way of operations over Linux. Why would you want to switch from something that works to something that you're not used to?

        And as I've said, that's fine. People will prefer Windows' way of operating. I'm most concerned with people who would use/prefer non-Windows, but don't because vendor support is spotty (which is is so because said people aren't using it).

        User: "I'd use Linux if my games ran on it."
        Game makers: "I'd make games run on Linux if users used it."

        Quote:

        I don't care about competition. My system works fine the way I want it to. My OS is already paid for, so I don't care about prices (pricing isnt that bad anyhow). And how will OS competition lead to lower hardware prices?

        That's a rather short-sighted view. Just because it works fine doesn't mean it can't work better (it's like saying the original Doom multiplayer is fine, so you don't need UT2K4 multiplayer).

        And lower hardware prices could be expected, since you'd have OSs competing and taking advantage of newer hardware, which will cause more people to buy new hardware, which will drive down the price of slightly older hardware. Like, with Windows Visa/XGL/etc taking advantage of modern gfx hardware, people will buy modern gfx hardware, which will generally cause prices for gfx hardware to go down.

        Quote:

        What cross-platform hardware? I don't see any :P

        What do you think x86 Linux runs on? Dead badgers? :P

        Intel, ATi, and nVidia graphics chips work in Windows and Linux (where most game publishers only target the capabilities of the latter two), most standards-conformant audio hardware works.. the two most important things for games do work to the majority of their potential, and there are cross-platform APIs to take advantage of that potential. Even if software vendors themselves don't port games, using cross-platform APIs makes the job much easier for projects like Wine (programs that use OpenGL tend to be much more compatible through Wine than programs that use Direct3D, since they don't need to attempt to wrap a closed API around something else).

        Matt Smith
        Quote:

        OS X is more likely to compete with Windows than Linux ever will

        Except for government use, which represents a huge permanent user base. Several governments have already made it policy to switch to OSS on security grounds, and more are cottoning on to the fact that they should avoid spending public money on private software. Pork barrel disasters like the UK NHS £10bn fiasco will accelerate this trend.

        Thomas Harte
        Quote:

        Except for government use, which represents a huge permanent user base.

        And besides cost considerations, most if not all have rules against digital cameras in the work place. So that's all Apple laptops and the iMac straight on the barred list.

        Quote:

        Now OSX has a UI I really like. My only complaint is that there isnt a apt-get or yum or anything to install open source software with.

        There isnt one that you can download for osx is there?

        I don't know apt-get or yum, but if Fink suggested above isn't for you then check out DarwinPorts. Which I think is the same sort of thing? E.g. to get, build and install vile type sudo port install vile.

        nonnus29

        Wow, now that I wasted 20 minutes of my life reading this monstrosity, I have to comment on it:

        I tried redhat a couple of years ago, couldn't get my dsl modem to work. Most recently I had embedded linux on my pda which was a fun toy for a few months. Batteries have been dead for quiet sometime now (ie I never use it). Using the little 'pick' keyboard with the shell was.... yeah.

        ML summed up my views of linux perfectly. However I've vowed publicly several times to never buy another ms operating system. So it's either linux or os x in my future. I'll probably force feed myself linux for a while and if that doesn't work, shell out for a mac.

        Quote:

        jhuuskon said:
        A new way to market Linux - Blaming people for not switching.

        Way to go, zealots. ::)

        ;D

        Archon
        Quote:

        User: "I'd use Linux if my games ran on it."
        Game makers: "I'd make games run on Linux if users used it."

        Everyone's ignoring me but here's an idea... or maybe this?

        Rampage

        I don't really know Linux very well, but I think that Windows will have a foot over Linux's throat until its graphics become faster.

        Actually, this is apoint I've made in the past. Most users simply don't need the whole X Server functionality. Why not have a simple graphics driver to communicate directly with the kernel? That might make it faster and easier to implement. Then again, maybe such a thing exists already...

        m c

        i just rebooted from ubuntu to win xp media centre edition.

        I came home from uni only to find that azureus had suddenly decided to quit and that the i had no inet addr (only inet6) and that the network card wouldn't respond etc.

        So i had to reboot to windows where the network card lasts for months rather than an hour or so.

        The problem with linux so far for me is this:

        1) Forcedeth keeps on loading! It is evil, it must be compiled straight into my ubuntu kernel or something, there is no stopping it. nvnet just won't bind to my onboard nvidia gigabit nic. Every time the nic goes down i need to recompile the nvnet kernel module (as that is the fastest way of making things work again. even rebooting isn't enough without it).

        2) gij. It's pure evil. Limewire won't run, it pops up a splash screen and freezes (even if i bypass the shell script that chokes on the unssuspected gij java cli message). Azureus was real funky and wouldn't run properly either. It'd get past splashscreen but wouldn't make a widnow, or it would but wouldn't bind to it (ie, blank empty contents).

        So i install sun java from their website (i thought that sun had gotten java into repos by now, with that thing on slashdot about their license change. so why the hell does gij get installed when i install the ubuntu SUN JAVA JRE package?), and call it directly and things work a fair bit better. The java in my path is still gij though, i was hoping that the sun auto-installer would fix that for me, but NO, i have to go do it myself....

        If gij where alive, i'd stab it in the throat.

        gnolam
        Quote:

        Everyone's ignoring me but here's an idea [taoframework.com]... or maybe this [lwjgl.com]?

        We're ignoring you because, despite what the Javaites say, in practice all managed languages are still slow as ass.

        Marcello

        Actually, in practice they run fine, and most people use the programs without even realizing it. I find it funny how programmers seem to have a knack for screwing up their computers so these things don't run right. (Or perhaps the real reason is more sinister.)

        Marcello

        Archon
        Quote:

        in practice they run fine

        then

        Quote:

        in practice all managed languages are still slow as ass.

        Since you always speak the truth, why don't you show some evidence (with the most recent Java or .NET versions and decently coded programs)?

        Evert
        Quote:

        Same can be said about Linux. I find KDE as klunky as you find Windows.

        Congratulations on getting the point.

        Epsi
        Quote:

        No, you don't. You want to play that sort of game. There are plenty of alternatives.


        You've opened my eyes. Now I don't.
        I want to play TuxRacer and SuperTux for the rest of my life.

        Quote:

        Also, the alternatives are free (as in beer), so even though they're not the same game, they're a lot cheaper. I know, that's a crap argument.

        I don't mind paying for quality work. I prefer that than even imaginating playing Counter-Tux: the realistic FPS game, World of Tuxcraft: the new MMORPG with only one race (I'll let you guess wich one) and Tux Quest: the next-gen hack&slash... (I can't see penguins fitting in mythologic Greece though :/ )

        Seriously, there is NO open-source alternative to the games I play, that match in quality of gameplay and graphisms.

        HoHo

        Funny thing is that all of those listed games have commercial alternatives that work either through Wine or Cedega. Not as good as native versions but they work and mostly rather nicely.

        Epsi
        Quote:

        Funny thing is that all of those listed games have commercial alternatives that work either through Wine or Cedega. Not as good as native versions but they work and mostly rather nicely.

        nVidia and ATI driver under Linux ? Those are really hell-on-earth... Maybe the fusion of AMD and ATI will give birth to open-sources driver, but until then you won't match the performance of Windows.
        And if on top of that you add emulation of the OS ... :/

        Bob Keane

        Fashionably late, and probably repeating someone else. I enjoy Fedora Core 4 but for some issues. After updating the kernel, I have to find new video and webcam drivers (still have not found webcam) and install. If you install ALSA separately, you need to recompile after updating the kernel. If you upgrade GCC, you need to recompile the kernel to compile new drivers. Some software installation instructions are dodgy (not for noobs), or nonexistent. After the latest kernel upgrade, when I shutdown my computer, it reboots. FireFox kvetch: I have to disable or enable javascript to make some websites work. I use Windohs XP just to learn programming and develop software though. Conclusion: Linux is not for the weak.

        HoHo
        Quote:

        nVidia and ATI driver under Linux ? Those are really hell-on-earth...

        Have you actually used a NV HW with Linux during last year or so? In native games they deliver exactly the same performance as they do in Windows. With ATI things are worse but that's because of their non-existent driver team.

        Installing the drivers is a breeze. Mostly it takes only a few clicks in package manager. With some distros you also have to manually change a line in X conf file. It is described in the driver's readme file. Takes a minute or so at most. ATI even has a special script that can do it for you, I'm not sure about NV because I haven't felt the need to use that script

        Quote:

        you won't match the performance of Windows.

        With Wine/Cedega I lose around 10-20% of speed in d3d games, most opengl games loose <10% performance. WoW and WC3 were supposed to run faster through Wine than natively on Windows but that might be that the d3d client for windows is not as good as the opengl one.

        Quote:

        And if on top of that you add emulation of the OS ... :/

        You do know that wine stands for "Wine Is Not Emulator", do you? They are doing dynamic translation, not emulation.

        Epsi
        Quote:

        Have you actually used a NV HW with Linux during last year or so? In native games they deliver exactly the same performance as they do in Windows. With ATI things are worse but that's because of their non-existent driver team.

        Yup, 2 month ago, with an NV GeForce 6200 go. Driver installation was everything but a breeze... Still doesn't work, so well I'm stuck in 1024*768 instead of 1280*800.

        I didn't know Wine in detail, but emulation or translation, you still loose performance right ? Next-gen games really makes my computer goes on it's knees, I couldn't afford to loose a bit :/ (and buying HW is not a solution if the point is to prevent from paying WinXP wich is rather low-cost compared to (from AGP to PCI-Express) new MB, new CPU, new DRAM II, new GFX card... :/

        HoHo
        Quote:

        Yup, 2 month ago, with an NV GeForce 6200 go. Driver installation was everything but a breeze... Still doesn't work, so well I'm stuck in 1024*768 instead of 1280*800.

        Might be a stupid question but did you ask for advice from someone?

        Epsi

        yup ;)

        even Knoppix can't help me :]

        HoHo

        Try kororaa XGL livecd
        If that doesn't work either you have some weird machine.

        Epsi
        Quote:

        Wednesday, August 16, 2006, 12:33
        The Kororaa Xgl Live CD has been taken offline due to GPL violation by distributing the ATI and nVidia drivers with the Linux kernel.

        HoHo

        Now that is what happens when zealots start acting. By their logic, the closed-source drivers have been violating the GPL from day one, even when installed separately.

        The original torrent is availiable here, though: http://linuxtracker.org/download.php?id=1806&name=kororaa-xgl-livecd-0.2.iso.torrent

        Epsi

        thanks for the link, even if I think my VAIO laptop is a linux hater ^^ (yeah because WiFi is also another story...)

        ReyBrujo
        Quote:

        Maybe the fusion of AMD and ATI will give birth to open-sources driver

        Closed mind + Closed mind = Closed mind

        After discovering why my games weren't running, I now are able to play good games (that is, those made for Windows 9x, like Starcraft, Heroes of Might and Magic III, Counter-Strike, etc). Since I do not care about 5gb games, I am pretty happy with my box. In any case, if I really want to play, I have a SNES with around 30 games (including 15 or so RPGs), and a Nintendo DS.

        kentl
        Quote:

        thanks for the link, even if I think my VAIO laptop is a linux hater ^^ (yeah because WiFi is also another story...)

        I know that Kubuntu 6.06 Dapper comes with some tools called VAIO something. If you want to try Linux on your VAIO give the Kubuntu Live CD a go (and then install from it).

        gnolam
        Quote:

        You do know that wine stands for "Wine Is Not Emulator", do you? They are doing dynamic translation, not emulation.

        They're doing emulation all right. They're just trying to avoid the political and memetic baggage that comes with the word "emulation"... ::)

        Quote:

        A software emulator allows computer programs to run on a platform (computer architecture and/or operating system) other than the one for which they were originally written.

        Quote:

        emulation
        Refers to the ability of a program or device to imitate another program or device.

        Quote:

        emulating
        to imitate (a particular computer system) by using a software system, often including a microprogram or another computer that enables it to do the same work, run the same programs, etc., as the first.

        Kitty Cat

        I'll agree Wine is technically an emulator (as it emulates a Windows environment on Unix), but it does not emulate any hardware. The byte code in the EXE is run directly on the system, just as it would on Windows. The only performance loss is caused by unoptimized code, as Wine is trying to get compatibility up before doing much optimization (and even still, some programs may already see a performance benefit, as was noted before).

        It is emulation, but not in the typical sense that most people think of.

        Quote:

        nVidia and ATI driver under Linux ? Those are really hell-on-earth

        Can't say I've had a problem with nVidia, nor have most others since nVidia provides some of the best Linux support for their Geforce cards. ATi is a slightly different story, but come on. Their drivers sucked even on Windows until recently.

        Arthur Kalliokoski
        Quote:

        Acrobat Reader (AR) is available for Linux

        Cookies to Kent Larson! My version KPDF is as bad as trying to read one of those chm help files with IE4.0

        James Stanley

        What distro are you using? I use Kpdf all the time, and it works fine. You could try updating it if you have a package manager.

        Arthur Kalliokoski

        Slackware 10.2 or something. But I've already downloaded the AR now :)

        Thomas Fjellstrom
        Quote:

        Closed mind + Closed mind = Closed mind

        AMD actually has a open mind. And with Intel's decision to release thier new drivers, there might just be a chance that AMD will push out ATIs drivers. Or at least get a few more people on the linux driver team (I think theres ONE person on it now).

        Evert
        Quote:

        Cookies to Kent Larson!

        You mean to say you honestly didn't know that Adobe Reader has a Linux version?

        Quote:

        My version KPDF is as bad as trying to read one of those chm help files with IE4.0

        Do you have anti-aliasing enabled? Do you use true type fonts?

        Trumgottist
        The Kitty said:

        ... which just goes to show, you didn't read what I wrote.

        Yes, I did. Then I made a decision. The wording was intentional.

        axilmar

        About a few months ago I installed Suse 9.3. The installation went smoothly and all devices where discovered automatically (even USB drives). The only problem I had was setting up the monitor refresh rate and position: my monitor was not in the list, so I tried a combination of compatible modes, but unfortunately I got stack in a black screen which I got out of by randomly pressing the cursor keys and space/enter.

        Then I went on to watch a DVD. I found out I had to install the drivers separately due to licencing issues. I did not know where to turn, so I opened the package installer and downloaded the DVD-related stuff. But the SUSE sites do not include the actual stuff needed, so after lots of browsing, searching, reading FAQs etc I managed to install the proper drivers. Then I watched the DVD I wanted.

        Then I went on to write a program. I searched for a C++ IDE; Kdevelop was not included. I downloaded it, upgrading my system in the process. Then I opened a project, selecting the defaults in order to write a hello world. More than 50 files where created, all related to GNU and open source (readme, install, licence, etc). Then I tried to create another project with nothing default, but the created project could not run; the compiler was not set or something.

        Then I gave up and went to Windows XP and MSVC++ 8.0.

        I have nothing against Linux; it is a fine system, and the interface has become nice. But as I get older, I find it more and more boring to having to type things in the CLI. It is just me though, so I don't expect any sympathies. Maybe I am spoiled by Windows...

        HoHo
        Quote:

        More than 50 files where created, all related to GNU and open source (readme, install, licence, etc).

        KDevelop project is actually a simple wrapper around autotoolset. You can take the generated files and you can use the usual # ./configure && make && make install to compile and install the project on any platform with autotoolset support, no kdevelop is required. You can't say the same about msvc :)

        That many files are generated because they are considered standard with autotoolset programs. Things should improve somewhat once Kdevelop gets proper CMake support.

        OICW

        That's why I like Dev-Cpp: it uses a .dev file to store a project data, then ussual sources, and after that it only generates necessary files like make, .o files etc.

        Which reminds me that I'll miss Dev-Cpp under Linux as well as Winamp and Miranda.

        HoHo

        I'm not sure but I think kdevelop had a possibility of using a bit lighter setup too.
        Of cource you can always drop back to using your own makefiles or a simple wrapper around scons :)

        Steve++

        Didn't read any posts (except the first) so I'm probably repeating.

        I've just installed Fedora Core 5. I thought by now they'd get their shít together. That's not the case. Each time I install any distro of linux, no matter how user friendly it claims to be, I spend way too much time dicking around with it trying to get it to actually work properly.

        Problem 1: I have a 1440x900 LCD monitor. So I selected "Generic LCD 1440x900" (or something like that) for my monitor type. So you'd think it would display 1440x900. Yeah right. I had to fųck around with xorg.conf to finally get it working.

        Problem 2: No support for bluetooth it seems. Sometimes the keyboard works, sometimes the mouse works, but only when they feel like it. Fedora doesn't actively do anything for this.

        Problem 3: This one really pisses me off, because it is so fųcking basic and has zero to do with hardware compatibility. I decided that I wanted to get just a basic installation of Fedora Core 5 up and running, then install other packages from the CDs post-install. In previous versions, this can be done. Not anymore. It installs them off the internet. Since my bandwidth is severely limited, this is not an option. So I've had to fųck around with yum configuration for fųcking hours upon fųcking hours, creating a local repository and whatnot. It's complaining about missing repomd.xml. Then I managed to get around that (I don't know how) so pirut decided it wanted to throw an unhandled exception. For fųck sake!

        Your campaign is absolutely stupid. If you want people to use a new operating system, get them to use something that actually works, straight out of the box. Linux doesn't. It's a total piece of shít.

        HoHo

        I've installed FC5 once. It was probably one of the worst distros there is :P

        Quote:

        get them to use something that actually works, straight out of the box. Linux doesn't

        My gentoo works right out of box. Of cource it takes a while to open the box :P

        Also Kororaa and Ubuntu seemed to find all of my HW. Though I don't use things like IR and bluetooth.

        OICW

        Hm, I smell trouble ahead with my new laptop, which would have bluetooth, irda and wifi incorporated, let's see how Ubuntu would show.

        CursedTyrant

        flgrxinfo

        display: :0.0  screen: 0
        OpenGL vendor string: Mesa project: www.mesa3d.org
        OpenGL renderer string: Mesa GLX Indirect
        OpenGL version string: 1.2 (1.5 Mesa 6.4.2)
        

        glxinfo

        1name of display: :0.0
        2display: :0 screen: 0
        3direct rendering: No
        4server glx vendor string: SGI
        5server glx version string: 1.2
        6server glx extensions:
        7 GLX_ARB_multisample, GLX_EXT_visual_info, GLX_EXT_visual_rating,
        8 GLX_EXT_import_context, GLX_OML_swap_method, GLX_SGI_make_current_read,
        9 GLX_SGIS_multisample, GLX_SGIX_hyperpipe, GLX_SGIX_swap_barrier,
        10 GLX_SGIX_fbconfig
        11client glx vendor string: ATI
        12client glx version string: 1.3
        13client glx extensions:
        14 GLX_EXT_visual_info, GLX_EXT_visual_rating, GLX_EXT_import_context,
        15 GLX_ARB_get_proc_address, GLX_SGI_video_sync, GLX_ARB_multisample,
        16 GLX_ATI_pixel_format_float, GLX_ATI_render_texture
        17GLX version: 1.2
        18GLX extensions:
        19 GLX_EXT_visual_info, GLX_EXT_visual_rating, GLX_EXT_import_context,
        20 GLX_ARB_multisample
        21OpenGL vendor string: Mesa project: www.mesa3d.org
        22OpenGL renderer string: Mesa GLX Indirect
        23OpenGL version string: 1.2 (1.5 Mesa 6.4.2)
        24OpenGL extensions:
        25 GL_ARB_imaging, GL_ARB_multitexture, GL_ARB_texture_border_clamp,
        26 GL_ARB_texture_cube_map, GL_ARB_texture_env_add,
        27 GL_ARB_texture_env_combine, GL_ARB_texture_env_dot3,
        28 GL_ARB_transpose_matrix, GL_EXT_abgr, GL_EXT_blend_color,
        29 GL_EXT_blend_minmax, GL_EXT_blend_subtract, GL_EXT_texture_env_add,
        30 GL_EXT_texture_env_combine, GL_EXT_texture_env_dot3,
        31 GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias
        32glu version: 1.3
        33glu extensions:
        34 GLU_EXT_nurbs_tessellator, GLU_EXT_object_space_tess
        35 
        36 visual x bf lv rg d st colorbuffer ax dp st accumbuffer ms cav
        37 id dep cl sp sz l ci b ro r g b a bf th cl r g b a ns b eat
        38----------------------------------------------------------------------
        390x23 24 tc 0 24 0 r y . 8 8 8 0 0 16 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 None
        400x24 24 tc 0 24 0 r y . 8 8 8 0 0 16 8 16 16 16 0 1 0 None
        410x25 24 tc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 16 8 16 16 16 16 1 0 None
        420x26 24 tc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 16 8 16 16 16 16 1 0 None
        430x27 24 dc 0 24 0 r y . 8 8 8 0 0 16 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 None
        440x28 24 dc 0 24 0 r y . 8 8 8 0 0 16 8 16 16 16 0 1 0 None
        450x29 24 dc 0 32 0 r y . 8 8 8 8 0 16 8 16 16 16 16 1 0 None
        460x2a 24 dc 0 32 0 r . . 8 8 8 8 0 16 8 16 16 16 16 1 0 None

        As you can see, Direct Rendering is disabled, and the driver is SGI. If I use ati-config --initial --resolution=0,1024x768,800x600 X doesn't load, but shows a black screen instead.

        I really can't use linux without it, since every program I try to compile with allegro works horribly slow (and I can't compile AllegroGL, so no OL for me, but that's another story).

        I'm using Debian Etch.

        HoHo

        Is fglrx module loaded? Is fglrx set in xorg.conf?

        can you post #grep -i driver /etc/X11/xorg.conf
        and #grep -b5 EE /var/log/Xorg.0.log

        Or you can simply attach both of those files :)

        Arthur Kalliokoski
        Quote:

        You mean to say you honestly didn't know that Adobe Reader has a Linux version?

        I only get 24 hours a day, and I'm not young enough to know everything :D

        I learn tons of stuff here, I'd say I'm learning stuff (and getting ideas by extrapolating) 3x faster than if I didn't read allegro.cc. Thanks again, Matthew!

        CursedTyrant

        Files attached. It seems to have a problem with the fglrx kernel module. Someone help me because I suck :P

        HoHo

        "[drm] failed to load kernel module "fglrx""

        Have you actually installed the drivers?
        Try
        #sudo modprobe fglrx
        #dmesg

        and see what are the last few lines about the module loading. Perhaps there are some hints.

        CursedTyrant

        I used the ati installer from ATI support's site.

        modprobe fglrx

        FATAL: Error inserting fglrx (/lib/modules/2.6.16-2-486/kernel/drivers/char/drm/fglrx.ko): Invalid module format
        

        dmesg

        #SelectExpand
        1Linux version 2.6.16-2-486 (Debian 2.6.16-17) (waldi@debian.org) (gcc version 4.0.4 20060630 (prerelease) (Debian 4.0.3-4)) #1 Sat Jul 15 21:23:01 UTC 2006 2BIOS-provided physical RAM map: 3 BIOS-e820: 0000000000000000 - 000000000009fc00 (usable) 4 BIOS-e820: 000000000009fc00 - 00000000000a0000 (reserved) 5 BIOS-e820: 00000000000e8000 - 0000000000100000 (reserved) 6 BIOS-e820: 0000000000100000 - 000000001ffb0000 (usable) 7 BIOS-e820: 000000001ffb0000 - 000000001ffc0000 (ACPI data) 8 BIOS-e820: 000000001ffc0000 - 000000001fff0000 (ACPI NVS) 9 BIOS-e820: 000000001fff0000 - 0000000020000000 (reserved) 10 BIOS-e820: 00000000fec00000 - 00000000fec01000 (reserved) 11 BIOS-e820: 00000000fee00000 - 00000000fee01000 (reserved) 12 BIOS-e820: 00000000ff7c0000 - 0000000100000000 (reserved) 13511MB LOWMEM available. 14On node 0 totalpages: 130992 15 DMA zone: 4096 pages, LIFO batch:0 16 DMA32 zone: 0 pages, LIFO batch:0 17 Normal zone: 126896 pages, LIFO batch:31 18 HighMem zone: 0 pages, LIFO batch:0 19DMI 2.3 present. 20ACPI: RSDP (v000 ACPIAM ) @ 0x000f8de0 21ACPI: RSDT (v001 A M I OEMRSDT 0x12000501 MSFT 0x00000097) @ 0x1ffb0000 22ACPI: FADT (v002 A M I OEMFACP 0x12000501 MSFT 0x00000097) @ 0x1ffb0200 23ACPI: MADT (v001 A M I OEMAPIC 0x12000501 MSFT 0x00000097) @ 0x1ffb0390 24ACPI: OEMB (v001 A M I AMI_OEM 0x12000501 MSFT 0x00000097) @ 0x1ffc0040 25ACPI: DSDT (v001 K8UNF K8UNF161 0x00000161 INTL 0x02002026) @ 0x00000000 26ACPI: PM-Timer IO Port: 0x4008 27ACPI: Local APIC address 0xfee00000 28ACPI: LAPIC (acpi_id[0x01] lapic_id[0x00] enabled) 29Processor #0 15:12 APIC version 16 30ACPI: LAPIC (acpi_id[0x02] lapic_id[0x81] disabled) 31ACPI: IOAPIC (id[0x01] address[0xfec00000] gsi_base[0]) 32IOAPIC[0]: apic_id 1, version 17, address 0xfec00000, GSI 0-23 33ACPI: INT_SRC_OVR (bus 0 bus_irq 0 global_irq 2 dfl dfl) 34ACPI: BIOS IRQ0 pin2 override ignored. 35ACPI: INT_SRC_OVR (bus 0 bus_irq 9 global_irq 9 high level) 36ACPI: IRQ9 used by override. 37Enabling APIC mode: Flat. Using 1 I/O APICs 38Using ACPI (MADT) for SMP configuration information 39Allocating PCI resources starting at 30000000 (gap: 20000000:dec00000) 40Built 1 zonelists 41Kernel command line: root=/dev/hda3 ro 42mapped APIC to ffffd000 (fee00000) 43mapped IOAPIC to ffffc000 (fec00000) 44Enabling fast FPU save and restore... done. 45Enabling unmasked SIMD FPU exception support... done. 46Initializing CPU#0 47PID hash table entries: 2048 (order: 11, 32768 bytes) 48Detected 1540.162 MHz processor. 49Using pmtmr for high-res timesource 50Console: colour VGA+ 80x25 51Dentry cache hash table entries: 131072 (order: 7, 524288 bytes) 52Inode-cache hash table entries: 65536 (order: 6, 262144 bytes) 53Memory: 511772k/523968k available (1484k kernel code, 11624k reserved, 570k data, 228k init, 0k highmem) 54Checking if this processor honours the WP bit even in supervisor mode... Ok. 55Calibrating delay using timer specific routine.. 3086.79 BogoMIPS (lpj=6173580) 56Security Framework v1.0.0 initialized 57SELinux: Disabled at boot. 58Capability LSM initialized 59Mount-cache hash table entries: 512 60CPU: After generic identify, caps: 078bfbff e3d3fbff 00000000 00000000 00000001 00000000 00000001 61CPU: After vendor identify, caps: 078bfbff e3d3fbff 00000000 00000000 00000001 00000000 00000001 62CPU: L1 I Cache: 64K (64 bytes/line), D cache 64K (64 bytes/line) 63CPU: L2 Cache: 256K (64 bytes/line) 64CPU: After all inits, caps: 078bfbff e3d3fbff 00000000 00000410 00000001 00000000 00000001 65CPU: AMD Sempron(tm) Processor 2500+ stepping 02 66Checking 'hlt' instruction... OK. 67ENABLING IO-APIC IRQs 68..TIMER: vector=0x31 apic1=0 pin1=0 apic2=-1 pin2=-1 69checking if image is initramfs... it is 70Freeing initrd memory: 4180k freed 71NET: Registered protocol family 16 72EISA bus registered 73ACPI: bus type pci registered 74PCI: Using configuration type 1 75ACPI: Subsystem revision 20060127 76ACPI: Interpreter enabled 77ACPI: Using IOAPIC for interrupt routing 78ACPI: PCI Root Bridge [PCI0] (0000:00) 79PCI: Probing PCI hardware (bus 00) 80Boot video device is 0000:01:00.0 81ACPI: PCI Interrupt Routing Table [_SB_.PCI0._PRT] 82ACPI: PCI Interrupt Routing Table [_SB_.PCI0.P0P1._PRT] 83ACPI: Power Resource [ISAV] (on) 84ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKA] (IRQs 16 17 18 19) *0, disabled. 85ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKB] (IRQs 16 17 18 19) *0, disabled. 86ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKC] (IRQs 16 17 18 19) *9 87ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKD] (IRQs 16 17 18 19) *11 88ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKE] (IRQs 16 17 18 19) *11 89ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LUS0] (IRQs 20 21 22) *9 90ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LUS1] (IRQs 20 21 22) *5 91ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LUS2] (IRQs 20 21 22) *3 92ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LKLN] (IRQs 20 21 22) *9 93ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LAUI] (IRQs 20 21 22) *9 94ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LKMO] (IRQs 20 21 22) *0, disabled. 95ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LKSM] (IRQs 20 21 22) *0, disabled. 96ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LTID] (IRQs 20 21 22) *10 97ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LTIE] (IRQs 20 21 22) *0, disabled. 98ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LATA] (IRQs 22) *14 99Linux Plug and Play Support v0.97 (c) Adam Belay 100pnp: PnP ACPI init 101pnp: PnP ACPI: found 15 devices 102PnPBIOS: Disabled by ACPI PNP 103PCI: Using ACPI for IRQ routing 104PCI: If a device doesn't work, try "pci=routeirq". If it helps, post a report 105pnp: 00:0d: ioport range 0x290-0x29f has been reserved 106PCI: Bridge: 0000:00:0b.0 107 IO window: 9000-bfff 108 MEM window: ff400000-ff4fffff 109 PREFETCH window: d6b00000-f6afffff 110PCI: Bridge: 0000:00:0e.0 111 IO window: c000-cfff 112 MEM window: ff500000-ff5fffff 113 PREFETCH window: disabled. 114PCI: Setting latency timer of device 0000:00:0e.0 to 64 115audit: initializing netlink socket (disabled) 116audit(1156972602.344:1): initialized 117VFS: Disk quotas dquot_6.5.1 118Dquot-cache hash table entries: 1024 (order 0, 4096 bytes) 119Initializing Cryptographic API 120io scheduler noop registered 121io scheduler anticipatory registered (default) 122io scheduler deadline registered 123io scheduler cfq registered 124isapnp: Scanning for PnP cards... 125isapnp: No Plug & Play device found 126PNP: PS/2 Controller [PNP0303:PS2K,PNP0f03:PS2M] at 0x60,0x64 irq 1,12 127serio: i8042 AUX port at 0x60,0x64 irq 12 128serio: i8042 KBD port at 0x60,0x64 irq 1 129Serial: 8250/16550 driver $Revision: 1.90 $ 4 ports, IRQ sharing enabled 130serial8250: ttyS0 at I/O 0x3f8 (irq = 4) is a 16550A 13100:0c: ttyS0 at I/O 0x3f8 (irq = 4) is a 16550A 132RAMDISK driver initialized: 16 RAM disks of 8192K size 1024 blocksize 133EISA: Probing bus 0 at eisa.0 134Cannot allocate resource for EISA slot 4 135Cannot allocate resource for EISA slot 5 136EISA: Detected 0 cards. 137NET: Registered protocol family 2 138input: AT Translated Set 2 keyboard as /class/input/input0 139IP route cache hash table entries: 8192 (order: 3, 32768 bytes) 140TCP established hash table entries: 32768 (order: 5, 131072 bytes) 141TCP bind hash table entries: 32768 (order: 5, 131072 bytes) 142TCP: Hash tables configured (established 32768 bind 32768) 143TCP reno registered 144TCP bic registered 145NET: Registered protocol family 1 146NET: Registered protocol family 17 147NET: Registered protocol family 8 148NET: Registered protocol family 20 149Using IPI Shortcut mode 150ACPI wakeup devices: 151PS2K PS2M UAR1 USB0 MAC AC97 USB1 USB2 P0P1 152ACPI: (supports S0 S1 S3 S4 S5) 153Freeing unused kernel memory: 228k freed 1548139cp: 10/100 PCI Ethernet driver v1.2 (Mar 22, 2004) 1558139cp: pci dev 0000:02:06.0 (id 10ec:8139 rev 10) is not an 8139C+ compatible chip 1568139cp: Try the "8139too" driver instead. 1578139too Fast Ethernet driver 0.9.27 158ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKC] enabled at IRQ 19 159ACPI: PCI Interrupt 0000:02:06.0[A] -> Link [LNKC] -> GSI 19 (level, low) -> IRQ 177 160eth0: RealTek RTL8139 at 0xc800, 00:e0:7d:ba:c8:73, IRQ 177 161eth0: Identified 8139 chip type 'RTL-8139C' 162Uniform Multi-Platform E-IDE driver Revision: 7.00alpha2 163ide: Assuming 33MHz system bus speed for PIO modes; override with idebus=xx 164SCSI subsystem initialized 165NFORCE3-250: IDE controller at PCI slot 0000:00:08.0 166NFORCE3-250: chipset revision 162 167NFORCE3-250: not 100% native mode: will probe irqs later 168NFORCE3-250: BIOS didn't set cable bits correctly. Enabling workaround. 169NFORCE3-250: 0000:00:08.0 (rev a2) UDMA133 controller 170 ide0: BM-DMA at 0xffa0-0xffa7, BIOS settings: hda:DMA, hdb:DMA 171 ide1: BM-DMA at 0xffa8-0xffaf, BIOS settings: hdc:pio, hdd:pio 172Probing IDE interface ide0... 173libata version 1.20 loaded. 174forcedeth.c: Reverse Engineered nForce ethernet driver. Version 0.49. 175usbcore: registered new driver usbfs 176usbcore: registered new driver hub 177ohci_hcd: 2005 April 22 USB 1.1 'Open' Host Controller (OHCI) Driver (PCI) 178hda: ST360021A, ATA DISK drive 179hdb: _NEC DVD_RW ND-3550A, ATAPI CD/DVD-ROM drive 180ide0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6 on irq 14 181Probing IDE interface ide1... 182sata_nv 0000:00:0a.0: version 0.8 183ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LTID] enabled at IRQ 22 184ACPI: PCI Interrupt 0000:00:0a.0[A] -> Link [LTID] -> GSI 22 (level, low) -> IRQ 185 185PCI: Setting latency timer of device 0000:00:0a.0 to 64 186ata1: SATA max UDMA/133 cmd 0xF80 ctl 0xF02 bmdma 0xD800 irq 185 187ata2: SATA max UDMA/133 cmd 0xE80 ctl 0xE02 bmdma 0xD808 irq 185 188ata1: SATA link down (SStatus 0) 189scsi0 : sata_nv 190ata2: SATA link down (SStatus 0) 191scsi1 : sata_nv 192ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LKLN] enabled at IRQ 21 193ACPI: PCI Interrupt 0000:00:05.0[A] -> Link [LKLN] -> GSI 21 (level, low) -> IRQ 193 194PCI: Setting latency timer of device 0000:00:05.0 to 64 195hda: max request size: 128KiB 196hda: 117231408 sectors (60022 MB) w/2048KiB Cache, CHS=65535/16/63, UDMA(100) 197hda: cache flushes not supported 198 hda: hda1 hda2 < hda5 > hda3 hda4 199hdb: ATAPI 48X DVD-ROM DVD-R CD-R/RW drive, 2048kB Cache, UDMA(33) 200Uniform CD-ROM driver Revision: 3.20 201eth0: forcedeth.c: subsystem: 01849:00df bound to 0000:00:05.0 202ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LUS2] enabled at IRQ 20 203ACPI: PCI Interrupt 0000:00:02.2[C] -> Link [LUS2] -> GSI 20 (level, low) -> IRQ 201 204PCI: Setting latency timer of device 0000:00:02.2 to 64 205ehci_hcd 0000:00:02.2: EHCI Host Controller 206ehci_hcd 0000:00:02.2: debug port 0 207PCI: cache line size of 64 is not supported by device 0000:00:02.2 208ehci_hcd 0000:00:02.2: new USB bus registered, assigned bus number 1 209ehci_hcd 0000:00:02.2: irq 201, io mem 0xff6fdc00 210ehci_hcd 0000:00:02.2: USB 2.0 started, EHCI 1.00, driver 10 Dec 2004 211usb usb1: configuration #1 chosen from 1 choice 212hub 1-0:1.0: USB hub found 213hub 1-0:1.0: 8 ports detected 214ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LUS0] enabled at IRQ 22 215ACPI: PCI Interrupt 0000:00:02.0[A] -> Link [LUS0] -> GSI 22 (level, low) -> IRQ 185 216PCI: Setting latency timer of device 0000:00:02.0 to 64 217ohci_hcd 0000:00:02.0: OHCI Host Controller 218ohci_hcd 0000:00:02.0: new USB bus registered, assigned bus number 2 219ohci_hcd 0000:00:02.0: irq 185, io mem 0xff6ff000 220usb usb2: configuration #1 chosen from 1 choice 221hub 2-0:1.0: USB hub found 222hub 2-0:1.0: 4 ports detected 223ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LUS1] enabled at IRQ 21 224ACPI: PCI Interrupt 0000:00:02.1[B] -> Link [LUS1] -> GSI 21 (level, low) -> IRQ 193 225PCI: Setting latency timer of device 0000:00:02.1 to 64 226ohci_hcd 0000:00:02.1: OHCI Host Controller 227ohci_hcd 0000:00:02.1: new USB bus registered, assigned bus number 3 228ohci_hcd 0000:00:02.1: irq 193, io mem 0xff6fe000 229usb usb3: configuration #1 chosen from 1 choice 230hub 3-0:1.0: USB hub found 231hub 3-0:1.0: 4 ports detected 232Attempting manual resume 233kjournald starting. Commit interval 5 seconds 234EXT3-fs: mounted filesystem with ordered data mode. 235input: PC Speaker as /class/input/input1 236Linux agpgart interface v0.101 (c) Dave Jones 237agpgart: Detected AGP bridge 0 238agpgart: Setting up Nforce3 AGP. 239agpgart: aperture base > 4G 240pci_hotplug: PCI Hot Plug PCI Core version: 0.5 241shpchp: Standard Hot Plug PCI Controller Driver version: 0.4 242Real Time Clock Driver v1.12ac 243parport: PnPBIOS parport detected. 244parport0: PC-style at 0x378 (0x778), irq 7, dma 3 [PCSPP,TRISTATE,COMPAT,EPP,ECP,DMA] 245Floppy drive(s): fd0 is 1.44M 246FDC 0 is a post-1991 82077 247i2c_adapter i2c-0: nForce2 SMBus adapter at 0x5000 248i2c_adapter i2c-1: nForce2 SMBus adapter at 0x5040 249ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LAUI] enabled at IRQ 20 250ACPI: PCI Interrupt 0000:00:06.0[A] -> Link [LAUI] -> GSI 20 (level, low) -> IRQ 201 251PCI: Setting latency timer of device 0000:00:06.0 to 64 252input: ImPS/2 Generic Wheel Mouse as /class/input/input2 253ts: Compaq touchscreen protocol output 254mice: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice 255intel8x0_measure_ac97_clock: measured 55277 usecs 256intel8x0: clocking to 46961 257Adding 514072k swap on /dev/hda4. Priority:-1 extents:1 across:514072k 258EXT3 FS on hda3, internal journal 259Probing IDE interface ide1... 260device-mapper: 4.5.0-ioctl (2005-10-04) initialised: dm-devel@redhat.com 261eth1: link up, 100Mbps, full-duplex, lpa 0x45E1 262ACPI: Power Button (FF) [PWRF] 263ACPI: Power Button (CM) [PWRB] 264fglrx: version magic '2.6.16-2-486 486 gcc-4.1' should be '2.6.16-2-486 486 gcc-4.0' 265fglrx: version magic '2.6.16-2-486 486 gcc-4.1' should be '2.6.16-2-486 486 gcc-4.0' 266NET: Registered protocol family 10 267lo: Disabled Privacy Extensions 268IPv6 over IPv4 tunneling driver 269eth1: no IPv6 routers present 270fglrx: version magic '2.6.16-2-486 486 gcc-4.1' should be '2.6.16-2-486 486 gcc-4.0' 271fglrx: version magic '2.6.16-2-486 486 gcc-4.1' should be '2.6.16-2-486 486 gcc-4.0'

        BAF

        Compiled with the wrong version of GCC it looks like.

        CursedTyrant

        The installer doesn't let me do much, so I guess I'd have to compile it myself. How would I do that, or rather, what should I compile, and where would I get it. I assume I'd have to use gcc 4.0.

        Bob Keane

        For another argument to switch to Linux, see this thread:

        http://allegro.cc/forums/thread/587325

        The prices are ridiculous for the latest versions of Windows...

        Evert
        Quote:

        I only get 24 hours a day, and I'm not young enough to know everything :D

        I just found it amazing, because I've been using Acrobat reader on UNIX systems for eight years, and on Linux for at least six years. Until fairly recently, I wasn't even really aware of (let alone used) other PDF viewers.
        To me, not knowing about Adobe Reader for Linux almost sounds like `cool, I didn't know you had vi for Linux'.

        Not that Adobe's Linux support is all that great, mind you.

        Thomas Fjellstrom
        Quote:

        cool, I didn't know you had vi for Linux

        Well I don't ;)

        Thread #587228. Printed from Allegro.cc