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My campaign...
Rampage
Member #3,035
December 2002
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Why am I always late for the interesting threads?

I pretty much agree with our benevolent leader. It's been two years since I last used Linux and I don't miss it. Too much work to get it running, while Windows just works.

Messing with config files is okay when you have lots of free time, but when you don't, it's just foolish to waste hours trying to configure an IDE.

-R

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Quote:

So we're like Jahova's Witnesses?

Pretty much. I don't think all of them walk from door to door trying to lure you to join them.

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It's been two years since I last used Linux and I don't miss it

You have no ideas how much things can change in two years. I'll suggest you to download some livecds to see how far have KDE and Gnome gone since then.
Of cource you can't see all the goodness of the new package managers without actually installing anything ...

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

Ron Ofir
Member #2,357
May 2002
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Quote:

Um, talk about uninformed :P

You missed my point. I do like Linux, I use for most things I do (and actually, sound is working better than in Windows! Except for MIDI which doesn't work at all). However, it seems most people who really like Linux and advertise it are either developers who like trying Linux more user-friendly or hardcore control-freaks which think hand editing configuration files is the best thing since sliced bread.

Oh, and I use Kubuntu so I obviously try to use apt-get (Adept, that is) whenever I can.

Archon
Member #4,195
January 2004
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Maybe someday Linux will have something comparable to DirectX.

Why? Then there'd be 2 APIs which would potentially split the game market...

That is why I like the looks of the Tao Framework. It's like a suite of APIs - just like DirectX.

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Downloading sources from ugly ten years old websites and trying to get them compiled for hours is fun?

That's why I use Gentoo - it has a nice packaging system.

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Linux isn't chasing Windows. Linux is better than Windows!

Are we talking about Windows itself or the stuff available for it ;)

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When someone is losing a race, it doesn't matter if his car is technically superior or if the driver is more skilled - the real, hard truth is that he is chasing the leader.

Not dog races... They chase the rabbit!

I still however, wish that there was an IDE greater than or equal to MSVS.NET for Linux that can do .NET/Mono/.GNU and maybe C/C++ too.

Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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I missed this before, but...

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Drivers being slow IS Linux's fault, there is the possibility of reerse engineering and making drivers worth a crap.

You're aware that reverse engineering closed-source drivers is probably illegal, right?

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The graphical performance was pitiful!

X11 is slow, no way around that. For your information though, I easily get a framerate of 60fps on most Allegro games I've tried.

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Maybe someday Linux will have something comparable to DirectX.

OpenGL for graphics and ALSA (or OpenAL) for sound pretty much get you there.

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Until then, why would any gamer or game developer switch to Linux as their primary OS?

Personally, I'm neither. The only games I tend to play are older ones, which work fine through DOS box mostly. If I really have to, I can boot into Windows.

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Yes, I'm sure it is possible to hack around Linux enough to get some sound working

That's never cost me much trouble, except with crippled hardware such as the new SB Life 24-bit card.

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or get a little better graphical performance via OpenGL (if you can find decent drivers:-/).

Just get an NVidia card and you're fine. :P

On a serious note, you do need to take some care in buying your hardware to make sure that it is supported properly. If you do that, things tend to Just Work.

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Messing with config files is okay when you have lots of free time, but when you don't, it's just foolish to waste hours trying to configure an IDE.

Well, I personally like the fall-back option of editing a configuration file by hand when I can't do it through a dialog box or things don't work. In Windows I just get to click 'ok' in the dialog box telling me something doesn't work.

Max Savenkov
Member #4,613
May 2004
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My reasons (I've tried all Mandrake versions from 7.0 to 9.1 at home and also had to use Linux at university):

Hate Emacs. Hate vi. Hate Eclipse. Love Visual Studio.

Console sux :). Midnight Commander is too old. GNOME Commander (or what was it called?!) is underdeveloped. Total Commander rulez :)

Had to manually recompile driver for my ADSL modem and spent about a week making it work (I understand that it not a Linux problem, but hardware vendor's... But it's also not MY problem).

Each and every possilbe program comes in source-only distribution and needs 1-5 libs (which all too need to be downloaded and compiled from sources). Binary distributions are few and not guaranted to work.

"man" is no match for MSDN. Rily. :)

Not that I exactly LOVE Windows either, but it gave me less problems. I have Linux installed on VM, so when I need it, I use it from there, but I'm not planning to use it ad everyday desktop system.

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Quote:

X11 is slow, no way around that. For your information though, I easily get a framerate of 60fps on most Allegro games I've tried.

I got 1000FPS in q3a ;D
As for general graphics speed, I can't see much difference in native-games. UT2004 runs just as fast as in XP. Though I've heard that games like WoW actually run faster through Wine than natively in windows for some people :P

X11 architecture is not as efficient as XP's one. Reason is that in XP, GUI is mostly done in kernel-space and in userspace with X11.

Though if we start talking about efficiency then this is what Bob said some time ago:

Bob said:

DX10 fixes a large portion of this (not quite reaching OpenGL yet, though), enough to make most DX9 applications run faster when emulated on top of DX10.

As it seems, d3d is not that good compared to opengl :P

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

kentl
Member #2,905
November 2002

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How bout KPDF [kpdf.kde.org] (for kde3), or oKular [kpdf.kde.org] (for KDE 4, and is in heavy development).

Just had to mention that Acrobat Reader (AR) is available for Linux. I've changed from KPDF into AR myself and never looked back. :) That said, I've never printed something from my Linux system as I don't own a printer.

Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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Quote:

On a serious note, you do need to take some care in buying your hardware to make sure that it is supported properly. If you do that, things tend to Just Work.

Of course, if more people used Linux, more hardware would be properly supported.

That's really my whole thing. People complain about Linux because things aren't "properly" supported, that they may switch to Linux if it gets better vendor support, etc. But they don't say/realize that it's not supported because they're not using it (not that I fully blame them; you're force-fed Windows from the start, so why bother learning/getting used to another OS just to be able to do most of the same things?). That's like saying "I don't like you because they don't like you, and they don't like you because I don't like you". Circular reasoning doesn't get anyone anywhere, and definitely doesn't improve the situation. If more people who would, would just bite the bullet and use Linux, it will in turn, be better supported. It may be hard and rough at first, but nothing worth-while comes easy.

I like games quite a bit. I used to be a rather serious gamer. But I also preferred what Linux had over Windows. So, do I stay with Windows and hope it gets what I like about Linux, while enjoying my games? Or do I switch, get what I like, then do my part in getting more hardware/software vendors to support Linux to get back the games? Obviously I went with the latter. Sure, it's a bit more work on my part, and I'll need to make some sacrifices, but IMO it'll be worth it. My work and sacrifices won't only benefit me, but others as well.

I hate it when games are platform-specific for the sole reason that they use a proprietary API, when there are plenty of capable alternatives. I hate it when I miss out on games because the developers only target a single OS which has an obcenely large majority of the computer market, despite other OSs being more than capable of handling the game. I hate it when my options are limited for development because a single OS with an obscenely large majority doesn't follow standards the rest of the computing world uses. But if more people made the same sacrifices as I and some others have done, if more people actually put forth effort to get better support for other systems so they can start competing fairly (instead of just waiting for it to happen by some divine intervention), it will eventually be better. Probably even better than better, as the increased competition will be a cause for improved products.

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But I don't think many people actually think "Linux is intrinsically harder to use than Windows" under the condition that both systems are set up with all the software you need.

I actually think most people honestly do believe that. And most people who try it and don't like it is usually because it's "not like Windows", so it's harder to use. A person who can objectively look at this would think "Okay, he just prefers a system layout/configuration setup like Windows instead of Linux." But, how many actual computer users would even understand that, let alone think it? You also need to factor in that what most users are accustomed to configuring in Windows are really sensitive settings, and with Linux being a bit more safety/multi-user minded, it takes a bit more work to actually change. This a flaw of Windows, not Linux, though most people wouldn't see it that way.

Maybe I'm being unfairly critical of the majority of computer users, but I honestly don't think enough people know what non-Windows (or even non-Mac) systems are truely capable of, both in terms of power and ease-of-use.

As for the whole "if your not with us, you're against us" mentality, I'll freely admit that's an overzealous POV, but it does contain some truth. Sure you may not be technically against us, but you're still hurting our cause (such is the nature of things when a single provider has so much dominance). It would actually take more work to neither hurt nor help the situation. So, while "if your not with us, you're against us" is zealousy, "if you're not helping us, you're hurting us" is quite true given the current situation. If things were more balanced between OSs it'd be different, but it's not, so that's how it is.

EDIT:

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"man" is no match for MSDN. Rily. :)

On the contrary, I find "man" much better than MSDN could hope to be. MSDN only covers system-specific things, while "man" covers anything that bothers making a page. "man" is typically more accurate about the stuff it covers than MSDN, and also has a much better layout so it's easier to find the information you're looking for, for a given function.

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X11 is slow, no way around that. For your information though, I easily get a framerate of 60fps on most Allegro games I've tried.

I got 1000FPS in q3a ;D

I think he means drawing through Xlib itself, instead of OpenGL. X11 drawing is more analogous to GDI, both of which are horribly slow and not suited for any serious gaming. OpenGL is more analogous to DirectDraw/Direct3D/DirectGraphics.

--
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will pee on your computer." -- Bruce Graham

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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Kitty Cat said:

That's really my whole thing. People complain about Linux because things aren't "properly" supported, that they may switch to Linux if it gets better vendor support, etc. But they don't say/realize that it's not supported because they're not using it (not that I fully blame them; you're force-fed Windows from the start, so why bother learning/getting used to another OS just to be able to do most of the same things?). That's like saying "I don't like you because they don't like you, and they don't like you because I don't like you". Circular reasoning doesn't get anyone anywhere, and definitely doesn't improve the situation. If more people who would, would just bite the bullet and use Linux, it will in turn, be better supported. It may be hard and rough at first, but nothing worth-while comes easy.

Prisoner's Dilemma, OS version. The best thing to do for me is defect (= stay on Windows), since I can't count on the other prisoner (= the rest of the population) cooperating.
Besides, it's like voting. It doesn't matter what I do, only what x million other people do.

--
Move to the Democratic People's Republic of Vivendi Universal (formerly known as Sweden) - officially democracy- and privacy-free since 2008-06-18!

Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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Quote:

The best thing to do for me is stay on Windows, since I can't count on the other prisoner (= the rest of the population) also switching.

If even half the people who thought "why should I bother, no one else is going to" actually did bother, there'd be a sizeable shift in market use. Such people are hurting the very cause they want to succeed because they're being lazy and/or selfish.

--
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will pee on your computer." -- Bruce Graham

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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Yep, I'm lazy and selfish. But read the second paragraph in my previous post.

--
Move to the Democratic People's Republic of Vivendi Universal (formerly known as Sweden) - officially democracy- and privacy-free since 2008-06-18!

Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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Quote:

It doesn't matter what I do, only what x million other people do.

Except you are part of the x million other people. By not going forth yourself, you make sure the number will be at least one less than what it would be otherwise. The more poeple who say "okay, I'm gonna do it anyway", the more other poeple will follow suit, and the more people who say "eh, it won't make a difference", the more other people will follow suit.

--
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will pee on your computer." -- Bruce Graham

jhuuskon
Member #302
April 2000
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A new way to market Linux - Blaming people for not switching.

Way to go, zealots. ::)

You don't deserve my sig.

Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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Blaming people for not switching.

Did you even read what I wrote? Or did you just see my "zealotry" and write off my post?

--
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will pee on your computer." -- Bruce Graham

Mr. Big
Member #6,196
September 2005

I like the idea behind Linux.
I hate Microsoft's monopoly.
I hate platform-specific programming and DirectX.
I hate ignorant people who use Windows just because they've never heard of any other OS.
If only Linux was more popular, I'm sure it would offer everything Windows does PLUS its own unique features.
But it just isn't.

I use Windows XP and am not planning to switch to Linux anytime soon.
Linux currently has too many issues (compared to Windows).
Operating systems exist to take care of... uhh... system operations for you, not the other way around.
You can't blame people for choosing Windows over Linux, and you certainly can't tell people to leave their operating systems,
which work just fine, and move to Linux!
It's just stupid, if you ask me.
Moreover, as a gamer, a general computer user and a developer, I must say that Linux doesn't offer anything I need that Windows doesn't.

In my opinion, the main problem with Linux is lack of support by common hardware and software.
I doubt this problem will be solved anytime soon, if ever.
It's just an infinite loop:
Linux won't become more popular until its issues are resolved, but its issues won't be resolved until it becomes more popular.

It's all really a matter of timing.
Do you remember what a piece of crap Windows was?
But it was one of only options at the time, so people used it, encouraging Microsoft to improve it.
Linux is a bit too late for that, I'm afraid.

On the other hand, even a Windows user like me shows some support to Linux by developing and using cross-platform and/or open source applications.
And I assume most of you do. :)
And another thing:
It's a bit off topic, but might be interesting for some.
In the next year (after this summer vecation), I'm going to take a computer science course in highschool.
(I'll be in the 10th grade! Yay! :D)
(The real reason I went to this course is because a decent portion of the timetable will be spent on teaching things I already know, so in the meanwhile I could concentrate on the studies of math and physics.)
The interesting thing is that the course is promoting Linux, which means we're going to study Linux and write our applications on it.
This course was a success last year and Allegro was quite popular among the students. :D

[EDIT]

Oh my!
It looked a lot shorter in notepad!

Trumgottist
Member #95
April 2000
avatar

Ah. Well, in that case I am against you.

--
"I always prefer to believe the best of everybody - it saves so much time." - Rudyard Kipling

Play my game: Frasse and the Peas of Kejick

Mr. Big
Member #6,196
September 2005

"you" is a bit general.
You're against who?

[EDIT]

Note that I read all five pages of this thread, and as far as I can tell, not even a single valid reason to switch to Linux has been proposed. (Is that even a valid sentence? Perhaps I should concentrate on English studies next year as well? ;))
There were many valid reasons why not to, though.

Kitty Cat
Member #2,815
October 2002
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Quote:

I'm not going to migrate to an OS which would stand in my way.

Is it really the OS standing in your way? Or uncooperative hardware/software vendors? I gaurantee that if the roles were reversed (Linux had the market share that Windows does, and vice versa) they wouldn't hesitate to do the same to Windows. It's not the OS's fault that vendors don't support it. They only support what users use (and users only want to use what they support; a nicely vicious circle going on there, no?). Somebody needs to break that circle for any change to occur, and vendors generally won't when money is at stake.

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Do you remember what a piece of crap Windows was?

I remember what a piece of crap Windows is. ;) <- please note that

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You can't blame people for choosing Windows over Linux, and you certainly can't tell people to leave their operating systems, which work just fine, and move to Linux!

I do nothing of the sort. I'm just saying that even if you're intensions are good, by using Windows programs, you are helping it keep its dominance. I do understand that people are force-fed Windows from the start, so that's what they're used to and they don't always want to take the initiative to learn another OS. It's not so much the users that don't prefer Linux (I just want them to see what's actually occuring and why), but it's users that do prefer Linux but don't use it because vendors don't support it. They don't support it because you're not using it. If all the people that honestly wanted to learn and use Linux exclusively did so, then I'm pretty sure things would be noticeably better in terms of vendor support.

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Ah. Well, in that case I am against you.

... which just goes to show, you didn't read what I wrote. :P

--
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will pee on your computer." -- Bruce Graham

Archon
Member #4,195
January 2004
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Question: Should we all make brilliant (closed source) programs for Linux so that more users and businesses would have to use Linux to access these tools like Windows and their developers have done?

HoHo
Member #4,534
April 2004
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Well, all the programs I've done during last two years have been Linux-only*. Only problem with them is that they are not brilliant enough. I do have a few ideas that are truly great, though. Before you ask, no, they are not MMORPG's, they are something more like MMORPGRTSFPSTBS ;)

*) Actually I just haven't bothered to make them work on anything but my own PC :P

__________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
MMORPG's...Many Men Online Role Playing Girls - Radagar
"Is Java REALLY slower? Does STL really bloat your exes? Find out with your friendly host, HoHo, and his benchmarking machine!" - Jakub Wasilewski

Mr. Big
Member #6,196
September 2005

I agree with you, Kitty Cat.
It's definitely not the operating system's fault.
But that doesn't make my life easier whatsoever!
I have pointed that out several times.
So why should I, as a computer user who just wants to get something done, care who's fault it is?

Vendors won't "break the circle" for obvious economic reasons.
But don't forget, time is money, and that same rule applies to users who need to get a job done on their computer as well!
And even if I'd switch to Linux now, it'd take quite a while until the rest of the world does.
So I just don't.
This definitely is not a unique situation.
There are many situations like that, most of them exist for decades.
But people just won't take the first step.
They just won't!

"...it's users that do prefer Linux but don't use it because vendors don't support it..."
I've pointed that out as well.
And I won't start using Linux until vendors start supporting it.

[EDIT]

Archon and Hoho, making something Linux-only is even more stupid than making something Windows-only.
Much more stupid, in fact.
Very unprofitable!
Instead of promoting Linux, your game will be ignored by the vast majority.
Which is why I vote for cross-platformability!
You lose nothing, only earn!
And maybe if applications start supporting Linux, vendors will start supporting it too.

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
avatar

Kitty Cat said:

Except you are part of the x million other people. By not going forth yourself, you make sure the number will be at least one less than what it would be otherwise. The more poeple who say "okay, I'm gonna do it anyway", the more other poeple will follow suit, and the more people who say "eh, it won't make a difference", the more other people will follow suit.

Even if we pretend that one single user more is going to count (it won't), the fact is that there is nothing to gain for me. You've admitted yourself that vendor support is crap. Why should I take a leap of faith and inconvenience myself in the blind hope that it will improve in the future?

Switching, losses and gains:

  • -

  • Time (in short supply) and effort in setting up a new system.

  • Learning curve (see above).

  • Having to give up gaming and a bunch of programs I use.

  • A quite real possibility of pieces of hardware not working.

  • Various UI quirks (e.g. spotty cut & paste functionality) I'm not going to get used to.

  • +
    • [/list]</li>

      If it makes you feel any better, I actually tried out a Kubuntu LiveCD a few months back, just to see if things had improved since the last time I gave Linux a half-hearted try. I'm assuming it hasn't, since I couldn't even get the damned thing to work...

      [EDIT]
      Various edits.

      --
      Move to the Democratic People's Republic of Vivendi Universal (formerly known as Sweden) - officially democracy- and privacy-free since 2008-06-18!

      Kitty Cat
      Member #2,815
      October 2002
      avatar

      Quote:

      not even a single valid reason to switch to Linux has been proposed.

      Being dominated by a single OS is not good for a market to thrive. Competition is essential for innovation and improvements, otherwise you get stagnation (for example, most people still use unaccelerated desktops despite hardware acceleration existing for at least a decade). Windows didn't need it, so no one bothered to work on it.

      Quote:

      Should we all make brilliant (closed source) programs for Linux so that more users and businesses would have to use Linux to access these tools like Windows and their developers have done?

      IMO, the best bet is to get something like Wine working well. That way, the people that want to, can move to Linux and not lose their programs, and encourage proper vendor support. But this won't happen as long as Microsoft doesn't want it to (to get the necessary information for such a project, you have to sign NDA; and since they're in control, they can easilly change things for the next Windows version to keep Wine significantly behind).

      EDIT:

      Quote:

      Even if we pretend that one single user more is going to count (it won't), the fact is that there is nothing to gain for me.

      As I pointed out, the more people that use it, the more other people will as well. It's not just you, if you can convince other people to (oh, but wait.. saying any OS is awesome other than Windows is just zealousness*). * Not directed at you, just seems to be a general attitude amo ng die-hard Windows users.

      And there is a benefit for you, as it will encourage fair competition, which will encourage better OSs, which will encourage better hardware to take advante of the improved OSs, etc.. all the while, having prices fall as it will actually be a deciding factor for some people. Unless you don't think better, cheaper OSs, with better, cheaper hardware, isn't something of a gain for you. :P

      --
      "Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will pee on your computer." -- Bruce Graham

      Evert
      Member #794
      November 2000
      avatar

      For all you people saying Linux is `not supported', bear in mind that Linux (or in general, some flavour of UNIX) is used quite a bit in academic circles, for workstations and computer clusters. It is very well supported in that area.

      As for valid reasons to use Windows or Linux, there are no objective reasons, only subjective ones.



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