I'm not sure if this subject is ok with this crowd, but I'll give it a shot. Do any of you smoke or otherwise consume marijuana?

I've been taking Ambien CR for about 2 years for chronic insomnia, but I've decided to give pot a shot. A friend of mine is hooking me up with some, so we'll see how it goes. Hopefully, I won't have to use ambien anymore.

I've never smoked pot, but I grew up around people who did.

That sounds like a slogan for the legalization of marijuana.

I've smoked pot for around 15 years, usually infrequently, but there were periods of quite heavy usage, and it has never helped me with my insomnia.

I'm hoping for a miracle I guess. In the past 10 years, I've smoked maybe 5 times. Always with friends around new years eve and what not.

I'm just sick of having to take a pill every night to fall asleep. Plus, I've had a few overdosing incidents with Ambien that were not fun.

I would much rather have a simple spliff to light up if I have trouble sleeping. I'll let you guys know how it goes though.

It doesn't really help me sleep. It does make those sleep hypnosis recordings a little more interesting, though.

It's enjoyable and relaxing. That's enough for me.

I don't need any substances to make me feel good.

Why is pot any better than taking a pill?

At leats it's natural drug, not human made. Other than that, I've had two shots and nothing perceived. However I know quite few people around me who smoke (some of them a lot). I wouldn't say it would help them sleep.

I never used weed, because I think it should not be used for pleasure.
As a medicine it surely has it's value, so has opium.

By the way, there are better herbs to help you sleep well:

Mix equal parts of dill, lemon balm and tilia flowers
add some german chamomile and grind it well in a mortar.

pour 2 teaspoons in a glass of hot water and drink it not hot but still warm before going to sleep.

To sweet is you can ad some honey (DO NOT USE SUGAR !!!)

I smoked during college. It was pretty much completely the result of peer pressure, it almost never did me any good or made me high. I instead would become paranoid and mentally drained.

I've had some problems with insomnia this spring. Nothing serious. But if it gets any more serious, I'd consider either that recipe of Ariesnl or just more physical exercise. A 7 km walk before 8:00 pm or before 8:00 am. And no coffee or coke. Using pills or weed on regular basis is sick IMPO, as long as I'd continue doing no physical activities. Or continue drinking coffee daytime.

I don't think it'll help for that...
Also, if you've been on sleeping pills for two years, chances are your body has started to depend on them (I'm not very familiar with different types of sleeping pills, so I don't know whether that's a problem with the ones you're taking).

Except for a couple of thousand years of selective breeding...
Oh well. It's not as if anything natural could ever be bad anyway.

Gnolam just won this thread. As for pot, I do not respect anyone who smokes, has smoked or considers taking it for any other reason than medical problems, and there are few documented benefits. It just flags you as "one of those idiots" in my head, which I don't feel like spending even the slightest effort to like or understand.

As someone who has been taking sleeping pills daily (well, except for the times when I have other things to do than sleep), I can definitely say that if pot did make me sleep, I'd prefer it to the pills I'm on.

While I normally feel refreshed after sleeping on them, at least once every two to three weeks I have a continued "drugged" feeling after awakening. It's a slightly disassociative effect, that I have to concentrate on ignoring if I want to function.

Granted, any drug (natural or synthetic) that can knock you out for several hours is bound to have side-effects every now and then.

edit:

Thank-you. It's nice to know in advance which people feel this way, as it saves me the bother of conversing with them.

Smoke it in a pipe, don't make joints. Joints waste quite a bit. You can get more effect with a whole lot less in a pipe or bong.

People say that it makes you lazy...and yes it does...but it also comes down to how YOU handle it. I have no problem working 10 hours outside, high as a kite in my backyard and on my car during my days off. Also, if you have an addictive personality, this stuff is addictive.

I don't do drugs, and can't quite understand why other people need to do them either, but I guess as long as people aren't harming anyone else they can do as they please. I used to think all drugs should be banned... but that's only because I didn't want people to use them. Of course, now I realize that there is no way to stop people from using drugs, so making them illegal doesn't accomplish anything... good at least.

But I guess since marijuana (supposedly) isn't that harmful to your body, it's not that big of a deal. What I really don't understand is why people drink alcohol and smoke cigarettes, considering both of them are proven to be harmful, plus they just cost a lot of money. If anything, I'd like cigarettes to be banned, simply because they are harmful to other people. They should at least make it illegal for parents to smoke around their children...

You don't have to like me, and I don't really care if you understand me.
However, flagging people so rigorously based on such a relatively unimportant fact makes you look like an idiot.
What is your problem?

I used to smoke it quite heavily around 1975, but don't remember it making me sleepy. I can't stand it now, I can't keep a thought going (what was I just thinking about?). Of course, at 51 I keep having those natural lapses, what are they called again??? <think think> Oh yeah! Senior moments!

My dad smoked for the entire time I knew him (and for qutie a long time before I was born). I wouldn't have called him lazy. There were times that he worked nine hours a day for six days a week, and he always had a full-time job.

What frightens me is what pot might do to me. Mark mentioned paranoia, which is not that unusual. Psychosis is another thing. Anyhow, it's a fat soluble drug which sticks to your brains for weeks. And even if I wouldn't go psycho, I don't like the thinking that I can use any drugs I like, because I know I'm not a loser who gets hooked on them and any loser who gets hooked can only blame himself. I'm quite ok with booze, because I use very little of that stuff and society and the whole public opinion supports moderate use of alcohol on one side and supports and helps people who have alcohol problems on the other side.

Reefer madness?

Excuses. If you want to smoke weed then do so. Don't hide behind some fake medical treatment. Based on what I've seen and know, it's my opinion that weed has a lot more negative effects then it does positive effects. I've never smoked it personally, but I've been around a lot of people that have. The effects are noticeable.

I've done a good deal of thinking on this subject. I think people fall into two main groups:

1. People who socialize naturally (regardless of how well)

2. People who socialize by thinking

I fall into the second group. The first group doesn't have to think about it, they just sort of "go."

After smoking marijuana the second group can't think. Because of this they can't socialize.

As an aside, the first group looks really stupid when they "socialize." There is little actual interaction going on.

Reefer Madness:

In that film a lady jumps out of a window and kills herself. A former pupil of mine jumped out of a window and killed himself. His friends wanted to convince everyone that he had never used any heavy drugs. Only cannabis. Well, I believe them. The guy was kind of a loser, but still I like more the world that bans cannabis and that way gives a chance to these losers, than a world that allows cannabis and laughs at these losers.

Lets ban violent video games too, because some kid might get the idea that violence is cool and fun. Here are some more things to ban
* rock music
* dancing
* soda
* sunny days
* anything that I personally disagree with

the world is one big program.
weed as you call it slows the world down so you can read the soruce code and see the messup logic that is the world. some people cant accept the logic so they go crazy. some people see the logic and try to protect themself from every little bit or the parts they dont like. and some people can harness source code with out being afected by the understanding of it.

<off topic>

I had an idea for a new resurch. " dose eating meat make living things more violent/agresive"

Hey, you gotta share some of that stuff (what you're smoking!)

Seriously, piccolo smoking weed. If that isn't proof enough I don't know what is...

Unfortunately, no one can be told what weed is. You have to try it for yourself. This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the sleeping pill and the story ends. You sleep in your bed and dream whatever you want to dream. You take weed, and you stay in Slumberland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.

Remember - all I am offering is the spliff, nothing more.

The same could be said of any prescribed drug that's also a controlled substance. Are patients using Xanax, Vicodin, Ambien, or Ritalin hiding behind a fake medical treatment, or do the drugs play a valid role in raising the quality of their life?

It's very easy to slag off marijuana, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it has valid medical uses.

What pill? Do you mean the specific pill I'm taking, or just pills in general? If you're talking about pills in general, that's a pretty hard question to answer because "a pill" is pretty vague.

If you're asking whether pot is better than Ambien CR, I don't know yet. It remains to be seen. If pot ends up helping me sleep better, and has less side effects than Ambien, I'll use pot.

I take it back. I had never before heard of marijuana being used as a sleep aid, but there are sufficient Google results (though none of them appear scientific or citing any sources) to suggest that it might be true. The question must be raised though: are people really sleeping faster and longer or are they just unaware that they're awake?

Yes, and exposing a 12-year-old to tobacco or alcohol products is bad, too. My main argument for the legalization of marijuana is that there are perfectly legal substances out there that can be nearly as bad.

Johan, with all due respect, you are making absolutely no sense.

Got a reference for this? All I found was
this, whichs essentially says in the third paragraph that

Do you know how fanatic and uninformed this sounds? Quite. You seem to assume cannabis = drugs, or am I missing something? Also, you seem to have this weird idea drugs = all the same = get you hooked = make you a loser = you die poor and alone, right? And alcohol and nicotine are somehow different? No. These "drugs" we are talking about are merely substances that affect ones brain. No more, no less, so no need to be hysterical. Some of these just are legal, some illegal.

Oh yes? I somehow have this strange idea that drinking ones ass off is a heroic deed in our nice little country. In Finland 2500-3000 people die every year because of alcohol (OD, that is) (source). Number of cannabis OD's? 0. Not to mention the huge social problems associated with alcohol. (Yes, you could say this is because alcohol is legal and therefore widely used. Well, should we not pay more attention to it too than to the dangers of cannabis? I mean, cannabis causes hysteria whenever mentioned but alcohol is always ok.)

Anecdotial evidence, eh? Well a friend of mine told me he smoked cannabis and found it to be very relaxing and fun. Do either of these stories prove anything about effects of cannabis to people in general? I thought so too.

Eh? I thought you just said the guy smoked cannabis. Nice going prohibition! And why would the world that allows cannabis laugh at these people? I.. I don't get it. What's exactly the point here?!

Usually I quite enjoy your posts and humor but here you seem to just go crazy. Cannabis psychosis perhaps? Anyhow, next time we feel like posting opinions as facts, let's all remember the wise words of xkcd. So reference, reference, reference.

I don't think I'll bother with bamccaig nor MeMo. Freaking kids..

Bruce Perry:

Edit: whoops, sorry for a long post, didin't realize it until now..

You know what else is a gateway drug? Chemotherapy.

[quote Memo]
Gnolam just won this thread. As for pot, I do not respect anyone who smokes, has smoked or considers taking it for any other reason than medical problems, and there are few documented benefits. It just flags you as "one of those idiots" in my head, which I don't feel like spending even the slightest effort to like or understand.
[/quote]

I completely agree with Memo; I won't associate with pot heads. I've tried on many occasions to maintain friendships with people who smoke pot. But it never works out. The way I think of it is; they do it for pleasure, okay so why not masturbate in front of a large group of people as well?

I've never tried pot or any other drug, I was always terrified of drugs because what if I like it too much? I don't want to be an addict living on the street.

Sorry Lennylen, New Zealand Sheep Shaggers are on my 'do not associate with' list as well. So that's two strikes against you...

Since I have weed experience, I can conclusively say that it isn't the weed that's the problem. What makes the smoking experience bad is 1. simply that it's illegal 2. it's consumed in an unfavorable way (joints as opposed to a bubbler, etc) and 3. the people who think it's fun and cool because it's illegal. These people tend to do other illegal things, or have other unattractive social habits.

If I was in Amsterdam, I would love to smoke and I would most likely never get paranoid because I wouldn't have to deal with the problems I mentioned above. I haven't smoked in a long time, because I don't want to associate with those types of people. But if they're good people, nothing wrong with it.

Weed is a stigma that has become associated with bad people because it's illegal. I wouldn't want my kids to smoke weed, because I wouldn't' want them associating with that type of crowd. But if they hung out with good people who could responsibly handle marijuana, then fine.

Boy, some of you people have really perfected overreacting to a fine art, haven't you?

Twelve year olds should not be taking any kind of drug that affects development of the brain - this includes alcohol and tobacco.
Fortunately, it's illegal to sell this stuff to kids anyway.

I'll go one step further on that: there are fewer drug-related problems among Dutch than in many countries with a more repressive policy to (not socially accepted) drugs. However, what you'll hear many people complain about is trouble caused by stupid tourists who come to the Netherlands for one week and decide they need to take enough drugs for a lifetime. Preferably several different kinds of drugs at once combined with alcohol. Yeah, clearly, if you want to take drugs, that's the way to do it.

What is it with you people? Why wouldn't you be able to try it and then stop after a while? Oh, I guess the criminals you need to buy from don't want to lose you as a customer and will look for ways to make you really addicted. Sucks to have to deal with criminals, I guess.
Another thing: why would using drugs make you homeless (I always assumed the relation went the other way around)?

I cannot confirm nor deny having ever been associated with such a substance or having ever used such a substance.

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How many 12 year olds can afford any of these?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7041961.stm

What will be banned next?

Fixed.

I would have been able to, if my parents hadn't charged me for room and board at that age.

I could certainly afford to buy cigarettes and alcohol when I was twelve. Not in quantities to sustain an addiction, but enough to do serious harm. And I didn't try very hard to get money at that age. So, not all and I couldn't tell you what fraction, but some.
It's beside the point though.

I know you're probably just trying to be contrary, but no. Criminals have ways to persuade you (threats, social pressure, even sneaking in something more addictive) that companies have not.
Plus, it being legal^[1] means there is some sort of quality control. They can't sell you any old junk.

As I said, incidents caused by goddamn tourists who think it's somehow a good idea to mix these things.
I think a liberal policy is the best policy, but I think there are some issues if not everyone follows that policy.

I've been hearing a very similar argument for the legalization of all drugs. Take heroin for example, one of the most abused and addictive drugs. Even the mention of legalizing heroin will cause people to freak.

In reality, legalization doesn't mean everybody's gonna start being a heroin addict. It means that it can be regulated and administered in controlled conditions - a hospital controls the use to patients who suffer from abuse withdraws, for example. It's safer, and doesn't involve the addict in a life of crime. And as Evert mentioned, it's production is controlled and there is less chance of contaminants, shared needles, etc.

I think it's a very interesting topic.

Absolutely not! You see, if we restrict the access to clean needles, the heroin addicts will simply quit rather than share needles! My politicians wouldn't lie to me, would they?

I've smoked marijuana 3 or 4 times before, each time the experience was the exact same... I got really freakin' tired and my body felt like lead. Somone told me that it's because the local sources here tend to over dry their pot before selling it. I dunno how valid that is, but I do know that should I ever develop insomnia pot would almost assuredly knock me out.

But like alot of people here I know a few people who have gone a little overboard with it. I try to avoid those people

Be careful. I've been told (by several doctors) that marijuana can lead to mental illnesses or at least bring out ones you didn't know you had. And if you do have one, it can be a Very Bad Idea to smoke pot.

I have done it before. I don't do it anymore though. If you have an addictive personality, then it doesn't matter what you do...you will get addicted to something. I get so tired of people that say pot is the gateway drug. Give me a break! I'd say that 9/10 of those that say that (if not 10/10) have never even tried it. Alcohol and tobacco are a lot worse in my book. It all really boils down to how people handle it. Some people can handle it, some can't...just like with alcohol. Pot used to make me sleep...so it might help you. I'd get the munchies so bad...and as soon as I'd eat...it was time to pass out. I just grew out of that whole stage...I hated feeling like a zombie. I don't think that the government should have the right to tell people they can't smoke pot though, especially since they are letting tobacco companies kill off people left and right with their products that have been proven to be more addictive than heroine. As far as all that goes, as long as you are not hurting anyone or stealing from someone...then do whatever you want. It's your body. There are a lot more dangerous stuff out there than pot. Also, most of those so called doctor reports about pot killing your brain and such...total bullshit. Another part of propaganda in the so called war on drugs. It CAN cause depression though. That was another reason I quite smoking it.

SODA POP! It rules my life! My Allegro avatar is the logo of one of the most popular soda pops of all time! It has lead me into programming, alchoholism, chasing women, and reading pcmag.com! Soda pop must be banned immediately!

If we're coming off clean here, I'll be totally honest. The most addiction substance I've ever encountered BY FAR has been World of Warcraft. I don't play it anymore, but for the first few months, it was like crack.

The mention of alchoholism ruined the joke for me.

decepto, use lowercase b's

And ask any heroin addict which gateway drug he did first, soda pop, cigarettes, marajuana, or the Obama plan.

I knew one girl who smoked pot every day. She had the maturity of the age she started smoking.

Her non-existent family might have also had something to do with it. ...But then again most people around here had crappy families. Ah the joys of a wide middle class -- family issues for everyone*!

_{* I meant 'Most.' But that doesn't sound as cool.}

But I like crappy uppercased EVERYTHING, like in Frontpage from 1994.

I take a large dose of anti-psychotics to make me "normal", I am well and truly addicted, its illegal to have if they are not prescribed to you, I cost the government a hell of a lot of money to stay sane.

Many people self-medicate for mental health issues with pot, over the years I have got to know a few of them, (friends of friends.) I am convinced they weren't that crazy to begin with, my experience says that if you are prone to mental health issues, it triggers episodes and relapses.

Trust me, you don't want to be mentally ill, and shouldn't do anything that could possibly move you down that path. So if you have mental illness in your family, just steer clear of the whole thing. I personally don't think it causes them, just triggers them.

That sounded a lot more anti-pot than I wanted it to, just if anyone decides to try pot because of this thread, be aware that it can trigger mental health issues.

I don't mean to be insensitive, but can you tell us about the conditions and symptoms of your mental illness?

I have paranoid schizophrenia with obsessive-compulsive tendencies. But saying schizophrenia doesn't actually define anything, other than "recurring psychosis".

I have auditory hallucinations, (no voices telling me to do stuff, mainly screaming,) visual on really bad days. Over a 2-3 months my mood slowly climbs to I get really elated and happy, and I dump down into a massive depression, and it takes all that is in me to even get out of bed, but the alternative is hospital, so I get up and function. As for the OC tendencies, its more I don't always trust what I see, like when I go to bed and I can see the door is locked, they key will be in the locked position, I need to physically touch it, for it to sink into my brain that its actually locked.

I think that about covers my symptoms, but 1200mg of anti-psychotics (seroquel) keeps the whole thing mostly at bay, to the point I can ignore the auditory hallucinations, I live with the mood swings.

The drug works really well, but then it loses its effectiveness, and the psych ups the dose, and its the same pattern every 9-10 months. 1200mg seems to be working, has for 18+ months. I am something of a medical curiosity, usually small doses work, where it takes a massive large dose, so I have been in a couple of clinical reports about the effectiveness of the drug.

The only side effect of that I suffer from the drug is they like to knock me out for 10-12 hours, and I get the anecdotal cartilage thinning.

I think that about covers it. This is the reason you don't want to be mentally ill, and pot has been linked to causing schizophrenia.

I am affraid that you are wrong

It's not causing. It's emphasizing.

OT, I am smoking for a dozen year now, and for me it's like everything: too much is too bad.

Too much alcohol, too much tobacco, too much food, too much water, ... the 'too' is the 'good' enemy.

PLUS from my personal experience, I can say that the effect really vary from one to another.

High consumption lead to a demotivation. Some are able to work against it, those who can't should stop smoke pot.

Timorg... You sound like my sister after she ate the wrong mushrooms...

Ha, also: for those who have never tried, shut up. Yeah, shut up, really.

How can you dare to talk about something you just don't know ?

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if you've never tried it, you dont know what you're talking about.

I once had a dooby and slept like a log. But I doubt it would keep working with regular usage, so I never did it again.

Well of the 2 linked studies that "refute" it.

http://journals.lww.com/co-psychiatry/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=2008&issue=03000&article=00011&type=abstract

and the other http://college.usc.edu/news/december_2005/denson.html it talks about depression not schizophrenia.

In this case wikipedia is wrong, anything off there you need to check the sources.

I could say something about heroine, too, something I've heard people say about it, people who have personally experienced the hell. But I guess I should shut up. And I should probably say to all other teachers in our school to shut up. I don't think anyone of them has used other drugs than alcohol, caffeine, nicotine and other legal stuff.

Today I was a stand-in for our teacher in health education (he wasn't feeling well ). We talked about alcohol and we sang a song by Juice Leskinen about alcoholism. I underlined the parts in the lyrics that describe the delirium caused by alcoholism, very alike something a friend to a friend of mine has experienced. I guess I shouldn't have said anything. I drink alcohol, I might even get drunk once or twice a year, but I guess I'm in no position to speak.

Why not? It's fun

Why should nonnus29 be accountable to you for his own personal reasons for avoiding drugs for himself?

In my opinion, he's quite right to think the way he does. Not everyone has the kind of willpower you seem to assume, and it's very respectable to recognise that this might apply to oneself.

In any case, whether these drug problems exist or not (since it's obviously a controversial subject and no one can agree on anything about it), most of us have been brought up in a society where our role models (teachers and parents) impress on us that drugs are dangerous. If you want an honest answer to the question "What is it with you people?" then there it is.

The going theory is that drugs interfere with a healthy, productive lifestyle. They render you unfit for work, so you lose income. The power of a drug addiction is such that as your budget collapses, the drugs will be the last thing to go. When you've stopped paying rent, been evicted, and absolutely run out of money altogether, then you'll sooner starve than give up the drugs.

FWIW, there is a difference between banning drugs from the general public and banning it from children. Drugs should be banned from people that aren't mature enough to handle it, but who is capable of making such a decision? Its generally ok to categorize all children (definately under 16, probably 18-20) as not being able to handle drugs and should be lectured as such. But to label all drugs as being bad for everyone is intolerable, especially if you haven't tried it.

Who says he is? Anyway, I wasn't necessarily responding to him but in general to people making similar statements (I'd have left out his name to make that distinction, but the quoting system puts it in automatically).
What amazes me is how many people seem to think that use of any kind of drugs inevitably sends them down a path destined to have them end up as homeless drug (think heroin) addicts. Which is bollocks.
I guess the terms "hard drug" and "soft drug", despite being English, don't actually carry any meaning in English, do they?

Of course they're dangerous. No different from alcohol and tobacco in that sense. What, you think the school program says drugs are perfectly fine and safe to use?
So how come tourists forget this little bit of common sense wisdom and end up overdoing their drug intake when they go to the Netherlands?

Ok, so you're all brainwashed to believe that touching drugs, ever, will inevitably turn you into a life-long addict and society drop-out. Fine.

You're equating drug use and drug abuse, but you've probably been brainwashed to think these are the same thing. Yes, drug abuse will do that to you. Doesn't matter if it's marijuana, alcohol or nicotine (although I've never heard of anyone's life going down the gutter due to nicotine).

Drugs are bad for society. Open your eyes. Yes, alcohol and tobacco is bad for society, too, but it just won't happen that alcoholics rob cars and people to get money for their addiction.

And I will never try heroine. What one guy said was that everyone would like it! He said something like "Imagine the best orgasm you ever had, or the best orgasm you ever could have. Imagine something 100 times better than that. That's what I felt." I have no reason to not believe that. And I have no reason to not believe I could feel that, too.

That's probably the key question that leads to all drug abuse. People ask themselves this question before they decide to try it (along with the bullshit about one having to test it before one can talk about it). But after testing, the question will be a bit different. "Why couldn't I try this a bit longer? What's the difference in stopping now and stopping later?" The original question loses importance.

Sorry for telling this without experience of my own. Sorry for not bringing the drug addicts here and letting them tell these things to you. But I've heard so many of them telling these things that I see no point in it. Sure you must have heard similar authentic stories, too.

We call them hard/easy or heavy/light in Hebrew

And one of the main arguments for legalizing DRUG X is that the same will apply to DRUG X if it was legalized.

Will legalizing DRUG X make it cheaper? At least in Finland you can buy cheap illegal booze, while the legal booze is expensive.

Are there any similarities between illicit acquisition and use of alcohol (such as during prohibition in the U.S.) and illicit acquisition and use of a drug that is illegal today?

I know that there was some organized crime based around illegal alcohol during prohibition, but I don't know how bad it was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_during_and_after_prohibition

In short, yes. Cheap imported alcohol is another issue which has to do with different taxes on booze in neighboring countries. Drugs are expensive because they are fairly hard to manufacture (since it's illegal), hard to import (since it's illegal) and hard to sell (since it's illegal). I'm not saying we should legalize all drugs though... But a more nuanced discussion on the subject wouldn't hurt.

Exactly. A no bullshit discussion, not just a definite no and don't even care to look into all of the possibilities.

No, drug abuse is bad for society.

There you go as well, assuming that using drugs will turn you into an addicted criminal.
This is simply not true.
Funny you should mention it, I haven't heard of junkies mugging people or breaking into cars to get some cash to pay for drugs in a long, long time.

I hadn't posed it in that sense, but yes, it probably is. You know how some people have a hard time giving up smoking and other people just stop without any sort of problem? The same goes for other drugs. Using it will not make you addicted.

It's not as if I've ever touched any of the stuff either, you know.

No, I haven't. Not from people I know anyway. But I do know loads of people who have given various soft drugs (to use that term) a try at some point and may still smoke some occasionally. But just as drinking a glass of beer on Friday night doesn't turn you into an alcoholic^[1], smoking weed doesn't turn you into a junkie.

There's possibly another point that I've already alluded to above. If I wanted to get weed back home, I'd know how and where to get it: there are enough shops that have a licence to sell it that it's not hard to find one. If I wanted to get some in, say, Paris, I wouldn't have a clue where to go. Presumably if I wanted to, I'd have to get to know people who know people and conduct dealings in back alleys. And I'd have to worry about the quality of the stuff I was getting.
In that situation, I'd be associating with the wrong kind of people.

In an ideal world, people would not use drugs (except for medicinal purposes). That we don't live in said ideal world should be abundantly obvious by the fact that cigarettes are sold with big captions saying they cause lung cancer, and people still buy them or take up smoking. One way or the other, at least some people will be using drugs. Now, you can try to suppress this and force these people to virtually become criminals to do so in hopes that it will dissuade them (experience should tell you this doesn't work), or you can try to go easier on these people, make sure that if they want to use drugs, at least they're doing it in a way where you can keep an eye on what's happening and where they can be sure they're getting reasonably quality stuff (as opposed to any old junk). The only concern is then whether this leads to more people trying drugs (it probably does) and whether that in turn leads to more problematic drug addicts (and my claim, coming from a country with a liberal policy to drugs, is that it doesn't).

It's funny that the hippy generation is trying to flip the script now. Talk about hypocrisy!

It happens all the time! And not just people with drug (illegal, prescription, alcohol, tobacco) addictions, but people with gambling addiction as well.

And politicians too! Well, they don't rob cars, they just tell the car manufacturing company how it should be run (even though they (the politicians) never had a job in the real world)

Bloody tourists, they're all the same.

Nevertheless, I stand by my statement about "the going theory".

Your argument that drugs don't ruin everyone's life is valid. I don't see why you feel the need to persuade other people that they should risk letting it ruin their lives because it doesn't ruin everyone's.

I have to go, but I may or may not reply more fully later

loud-n-clear.

Update:

Bah, the marijuana didn't help. It just made me really paranoid for about 45 minutes. Then I got dry mouth and the munchies. Definitely not conducive to sleep. In fact, I got the exact opposite of what I wanted.

Well, it was worth a try.

well... sounds like you smoked too much or too hard.

Take it slow, calm inhalations. For a 'softer' smoke, inhale from with both your mouth and nose to mix with oxygen.

Look at me, I'm giving weed tips

edit: a lot of people will say if you cough it's a good thing, but those are the keg-stand frat boys. If you're coughing then it's because you took a big hit - don't if you're trying to relax.

If sleep is all you want then do this... Go for a walk at night... Stay away from blue lights, tv's and computer monitors. Blue light signals certain reactions in the body that won't give you a good nights sleep... A long walk will no doubt tire you out, make you thirsty and possibly give you the munchies. Marijuana will just make you lazy and not necessarily tired...

Which one?

Good.

Eh? What? Where do I say that?
Look again. All I say is that drug use does not inevitably lead to drug abuse, but people have this knee-jerk reaction where they equate the two. And that's stupid.

Which doesn't necessarily help if you have insomnia. You can be dead tired and not fall asleep. A friend of mine has it.

It can help you relax, which may be what you need to go to sleep.

Viidestoista yö.

Statistics are everything in the case against Marijuana. There are no bad statistics about marijuana in comparison to any other recreational drug available, even the legal ones like salvia, pods, alcohol, etc.

The reason Marijuana is illegal is because it has statistically bad effects on the qualities that make you a useful person to the group. You are slower, eat a lot, lazy, and it has general dissociative effects causing you to lack a higher order of understanding while on the drug. It is more difficult to regulate because it is easy to reproduce, which is why governments don't take it over and make tax from it, unlike alcohol.

Marijuana being illegal isn't a big deal, at least here in Ontario. I'd rather get caught with an ounce of pot than get caught speeding 50kmph over the limit.

I've never grown any marijuana (and don't plan on doing it either), but I've done a fair bit of homebrewing - and I have a hard time imagining that growing pot could be easier than making alcohol.
Something containing sugar + water + yeast + leave it alone for a couple of weeks = C₂H₅OH.

Making decent beer is tricky, but anyone can make a perfectly drinkable mead.

I'm afraid legal ones like alcohol and tobacco are not legal because they are somehow good or harmless but because it would be too hard if not impossible to make them illegal because of the long cultural background. (Tobacco's been popular since America was discovered, alcohol probably around the world since stone age.) This would be a very poor excuse to legalize other substances since "they are no worse".

(There are probably other drugs that are more culture-specific. My ancestors probably consumed a few mushrooms now and then. I could go and pick a few of those for myself too in the autumn, but the grand hallucinations would come at a price of vomiting and other symptoms like that...)

I know you can make some decent beer with pretty low startup costs, but if you wanted to do a batch of 24 cases of 24 bottles it's going to take far more preparation.

You can grow pot by planting seeds in your backyard here. You don't do anything else until it's done growing. Then you just need to yank them (growing pot indoors is also easy but is a 5 minute daily task for about 3 months).

In my area, Lambton County, Ontario, it's impossible to detect. There is a lot of bush land that is teeming with pot.

It's culturally acceptable (which is wrong), but it is NOT difficult to make alcohol or tobacco illegal.

Tobacco is becoming illegal without any difficulty here in Ontario. You cannot smoke in your car with your kids here, or in public places, and you cannot advertise that you sell tobacco or display it in your stores.

Alcohol will not see the same treatment because the tax revenues are too high and the health effects are not serious enough to cost the country money (like tobacco does).

Steps to make alcohol illegal (2-5 year break between steps):
1) Reduce maximum alcohol content to 40% (from 75% I think).
2) Raise age limit to 21 (from 19)
3) Increase taxes as well as significantly increasing licensing costs.
4) Increase penalties regarding alcohol related crimes.
5) Ban alcohol advertising to the public.
6) Reduce the amount of alcohol one person may purchase.

Then if you want to go further, you just keep bumping up those steps slowly. The trick is to make it unacceptable first, then make it illegal.

..but that's going to cost more money, so that doesn't make any sense.

Sorry, Samuli, for ignoring your long post. Actually I missed a lot of this thread for some reason. My browser obviously jumped over the posts down to one of Timorg's posts, despite me clicking on "jump to last read post". Anyway, yeah, I might sound fanatic, but I stay at my point that drugs that are illegal should stay illegal in Finland. And I do believe when scientists say the cannabinoids are fat soluble and therefore stay in our brains for a longer time. They might not actually damage our brains like alcohol does, killing the cells, but their presence there might change our personalities in the long run.

I've heard a similar story. But I guess that goes for booze, too.

I try not to be fanatic. I only feel bad when youths start to smoke cigarettes without knowing simple facts. And same goes for smoking pot. No, I can't verify all "facts" I've said here. I only wish everyone would consider checking these things out before starting their own drug use. The reason why I haven't gone through these facts is that I'm not going to use pot myself. If you are aware that cannabinoides might stay for weeks in your brain, if you are aware that they might cause psychotic reactions, if you are aware that they might change your personality, if you are aware of <any negative effect I've missed> and still decide to use it, that's fine with me. But if you neglect everything bad people say about cannabis, you're just stupid. I have issues with stupidity, and that's why I act fanatic even though I hate it. I know alcohol destroys my brains, I know it destroys my liver, I know this and that about alcohol. And I still drink it. I drink maybe 1% - 5% of the average amount Finns drink, but I still do.

1) While you can get stronger stuff, vodka in EU is 38% or so.
2) In place (not sure about light alcohols like beer and cider which might still be 18), although schoolkids can always get alcohol if they are motivated enough.
3) Done (I haven't drunk beer all winter and it seems it has become 1/4 more expensive in the meantime).
4) Should be in place.
5) This has been attempted, and advertising should be at least restricted.
6) As much as you can carry

These steps (including restricting where alcohol can be consumed) don't seem to have much effect on alcohol consumption. Perhaps higher taxes can cut back some consumption (but also activate the black market, and real homeless drunkards consume things like cheap Eau-de-Cologne anyway).

I was applying those steps to my region, which apparently matters a lot, heh.

Alcohol might go the same way that Marijuana is now if it were made completely illegal, and really that's not what I want anyway. It should be far more difficult to get than it is though, especially for younger people.

Marijuana is a far better alternative to alcohol as a recreational drug. Legalizing Marijuana and increasing restrictions on Alcohol and removing social acceptance of it would be a step in the right direction, I think.

Even easier than making your own zip gun

heh, yeah. That could become an issue, but I suspect that fewer people are going to become chronic users of poor quality alcohol. I don't think it would catch on to a very big extent

I've never particularily liked that one and haven't really listened to the lyrics.

You're right of course. Creepy.

"Cheap and home-made" does not necessarily equate to "poor quality". I don't know how it is where you live, but all the moonshine I've come across in this country^[1] has been at least on par with commercial products.
(And absolutely all of it has been better than Vodka Jelzin. Gah!)

But vodka jelzin comes in a bag-in-box version

It's not like the domestic car manufacturers know anything about what they're doing anyway.

I inferred it from the fact that you quoted nonnus29 (who was citing his own personal reasons for never touching drugs), then essentially asked why one (I inferred: he) can't just try it and then stop. Your statement also sounded a bit as if you thought everyone has the power to try it and then stop.

I guess you didn't mean it that way, so I'm sorry for misunderstanding - but hopefully you can see how it might have been a slightly unfortunate choice of quote

What about the 'passive smoking' element? I would hope it would be restricted the same way cigarettes are in certain countries (e.g. not indoors in public), at the very least. Alcohol at least has the advantage that no one around you is directly affected by the drug itself.

Ah, brings back nice memories of a dog getting high when we were university students