The really sad thing is that the same mechanism that allows these fine gentlemen to believe in their bullshit also allows Muslim extremists to believe that what they're doing is righteous and good. You can't stop one without stopping the other. Food for thought.

In other news..

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Neil's examples of his Magical Thinking are a good ones. These are the types of traps that many Christians, or followers of other supernatural thinking groups, fall into. When I was on The Peace Train Magic Bus, we stopped at Eagle Rock casino. Before we went in, we agreed to perform a ritual and "pray" to the "spirits" that they would help us win.

We won so it worked so there.

We're gonna have to be subjective here, and recognize that what some people consider "proof" of God's Existence / Nonexistence other people won't accept.

Sorry double negative. They don't call them spirits for no reason. They call them spirits for a reason.

Neil, you can't get so emotional about everything. You have your beliefs and they have theirs, I don't expect anyone to change their minds, I just don't want the truth mis-represented here. If you leave, who's gonna test my binaries??? Cmon, don't get so bent out of shape by a few dimwits.

Wait, I'm confused - are people seriously claiming to have proof of the existence of God!?!? HAS THE WHOLE WORLD GONE MA.....oh yes, it has.

We are talking about it. We've been talking about it. Talking about it lead to the assertion that you cannot expect to get rid of one set of idiotic beliefs if you let other idiotic beliefs exist without scrutiny. That lead to some people with idiotic beliefs making idiotic claims about their idiotic beliefs being true.

The uncomfortable truth is that Christianity is just as stupid as Islam. You want to have one, but not the other. It doesn't work that way. Therefore, what is the solution? There doesn't seem to be one. If you'd like to propose some fair and plausible solutions have at it, but I haven't heard anything other than fear mongering and hatred. It may well be at least partially justified, but it doesn't practically solve any problems or make anything better.

Where should we take the discussion now?

As an atheist, I'm not going to deny religion can be a positive social influence. It provides a sense of community, mental wellbeing, and other social and cultural benefits that secular alternatives are hard-pressed to match.

Zealotry is different. Zealotry arises out of desperation, poverty, and other cascading, negative influences. I've not read the Koran, and I'm not an Islam scholar, so I cannot say how fundamental Islamic beliefs aggravate the situation in the Middle East--there's plenty who will tell me the religion is inherently violent, and others who say the opposite, each providing excerpts. But I bet you I could make "Atlas Shrugged" appear as a communist manifesto if I selected particular fragments and excerpts .

But I tend to believe that the situation of religious terrorism, in particular terrorist acts committed by Muslims, is more of an outlet for other issues (poverty, warfare, famine) that affect the region. The only solution is treating the cause, not the symptoms. In other words: preventing climate change; helping rebuild communities and infrastructure; and supporting social causes such as education and healthcare.

But hey, drones, bombs, and body bags are cheap in comparison.

I think Emily Dickinson's small poem sums up my thoughts on the matter well:

The New Testament isn't fiction, it's a biography. For someone who likes to rely on evidence for the proof of things, you sure seem willing to ignore history as often as you like.

omg, these are real documented people from history who documented Jesus' life and teachings. He came to fulfill the scriptures, and He did. These are actual historical facts about real people who actually lived before you. But of course all this is just from a bunch of believers. All of it is totally made up. Of course the Hebrews made up the Old Testament so they could live strict ritual lives and live according to some crazy Ten Commandments, even though most of them would die in the wilderness for being un-believers. Just for fun. They made it all up so their lives could be harder.

And besides bamccaig, you're just playing on doubt. It's not like you have any facts to support your claims. :/