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Bill Nye the Science Guy has reached Uber Sentience
Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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I think you confuse "uneducated Americans" with "the majority of the world". You also mistakenly believe "the liberal elites" somehow control reality, or what is true and what is not, but sadly, humans don't have power over reality to such an extent.

Felix-The-Ghost
Member #9,729
April 2008
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Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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::cough:: french elections ::cough::

Felix-The-Ghost: ;D;D;D

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“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Elverion said:

[Convincing arguments]

Thank you for taking the time to write that. I read the whole thing and it is certainly thought provoking. I guess you could say I'm sitting on the fence with my legs on the "disbelief" side.

I have heard compelling arguments that a large number of post-op transsexuals have declining mental health after surgery, but it's hard to find compelling evidence in either direction. Of course, I also don't have the time or educational background to read through research papers (or the money, apparently, since for some reason scientific research is proprietary).

While I appreciate the educational background and practical expertise of the people you mentioned, I think too that if scientific research is indeed affected by political bias (and I've read from a few self identifying scientists that this is the case) then it stands to reason that studies done would be designed to support the political bias and avoid contradicting it.

One guy that comes to mind describing the bias involved in getting grant money for research is Thunderfoot on YouTube, who could be described as a critic of Feminism and Creationism and other pseudoscience junk, among other things (including scientist, if you ask me). Oh, look, there's a short Wikipedia article on him now. I'm not sure if I could find reference to him saying that on the spot if I tried. Though I'm reasonably confident that I've heard him say it, though I'm not sure in his general field of study of chemistry the bias would necessary relate to sex in any way.

According to his channel, he allegedly had one Feminist try to get him fired (I believe he reported that she ended up getting fired instead), and had his Twitter account temporarily banned because of alleged exchanges with the professional victim club headed by Anita Sarkeesian. That said, if you watch his videos, he is actually very intellectual and professional about it (while also having his fun). He's a favorite vlogger of mine.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe that Christina Hoff Sommers has also mentioned this, but again I lack references (so maybe I'm just putting words in her mouth). I guess she also doesn't qualify as a scientist. Only an academic.

Elverion said:

That's not different than denying anything else that's pretty well scientifically accepted. Essentially all prominent organizations across the world that deal with the medical treatment and scientific study of transgender people agree that absolutely it is real and there's no way to deal with it other than to let that person be themselves and transition as they see fit, whether that be medically with hormones or socially in their presentation.

Science isn't really about what people agree upon. At one point scientists agreed the Earth was flat. Science is about what appropriately run experiments tell us about the world. Studying human brains is a bit more of a black box though. As far as I know, we've barely scratched the surface of really understanding it, and most of what we think we know is observational or self-reported.

Some medical or mental health professionals examined or questioned various people at various stages of their development or transition and came to some conclusions based upon that. I think it's difficult to compare that sort of science with say physics or chemistry where the experiment is controlled and you can say with certainty what the outcome will be.

Elverion said:

So, on the topic of bathroom choice. Why does it bother you? There's little to no cases of a trans person ever sexually assaulting, "peeping", or anything else out of the ordinary. Ever.

I don't think that proves anything, assuming it's correct. One could reason cases would be rare because transsexuals are a small proportion of the population, and also instances of peeping might be exceptionally rare if they are hiding their identity or uncomfortable with their bodies, etc. Logically it would seem to indicate that if one was going to peep it should be towards the gender they're attracted to, which might very well be the gender they were assigned biologically. In any case, it's a difficult subject.

It's unfortunate, but I think that most of us would be more concerned about a transwoman in the female's washroom than a transman in the male's washroom... Similarly, we would be less concerned with a female in the male's washroom than visa-versa, even though females are also guilty of committing sexual abuses in similar numbers to males.

The transgendered people aside, there's also the argument that how can we police it if you let people choose. And should a trans person qualify to choose on the spot where they want to go? How do you stop a heterosexual boy from going into the girl's washroom? Could he just claim to be transsexual and get a free pass? I think that it's not so clear cut, even assuming it's a healthy and safe option for transexuals.

Elverion said:

Yet, about 70% transgender people experience harassment and assault quite regularly. Within the last few years, the murder rates of trans women has been skyrocketing; go ahead and check the FBI's statistics on that.

I think violence is terrible regardless of who it is inflicted upon. That said, I also think that most people experience some form of harassment and assault somewhat regularly so it's somewhat of a misleading observation. I could certainly see how some minorities may experience more severe forms of harassment or assault. In that case, I think that further acceptance of differences in people is good and will hopefully help to reduce the suffering. On the other hand, I strongly oppose things like "safe spaces", censorship, and bullying of people that have differing views. That's not the answer either. People need to be allowed to arrive at acceptance on their own. They can't be bullied into it. That will probably only slow the process down.

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

At least we can all agree that autism causes vaccines, right?

You win the thread :)

Or Felix does for that image, I'm not sure.

So Eric, that video with the rather gorgeous girl explaining how chromosomes give rise to gender - someone has added a giggly sound effect whenever she says 'girl', and what I can't quite identify but seems to be the sound of being punched whenever she says 'boy'. I actually find that a bit triggering because I don't like the implication that boys want to fight ;D

P.S. Felix I replied to your comment ;)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
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So Eric, that video with the rather gorgeous girl explaining how chromosomes give rise to gender - someone has added a giggly sound effect whenever she says 'girl', and what I can't quite identify but seems to be the sound of being punched whenever she says 'boy'.

I can't quite identify the sound that plays when she says "boy". It sounded like a drum snare to me at first, but then another sound that played later sounded like a dog bark. So I'm not sure.

Also, that episode is from 1996. I'm not sure how old the girl is then, but that was 21 years ago now! :o

Elverion
Member #6,239
September 2005
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bamccaig: Great post, but I don't want to come across as too preachy so I'm going to try to refrain from talking your (or anyone else's) ear off, though I certainly do appreciate the points you have raised.

If it's something that you're interested in, I can provide you a copy of Dr. Vitale's book, The Gendered Self, which covers all of these topics and more, and includes sources for her claims. Just let me know if that's something you'd like.

--
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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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I am a slow reader so I don't really have time to read a book on the subject unfortunately. :( I have too many tech books to get through first just sitting on shelves collecting dust! Makes me jealous of my finacee. She can read a full-length novel in a day or two. It would take me months to get 1/3, and I'd put the book down and forget about it long before I finished.

Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
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bamccaig said:

I am a slow reader

Solution: audio books. 8-)

Felix-The-Ghost
Member #9,729
April 2008
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P.S. Felix I replied to your comment ;)

Good thing my notification preferences keep changing without me ::)

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Also, that episode is from 1996. I'm not sure how old the girl is then, but that was 21 years ago now!

Forty years ago no one would have ever believed the LGBTSJWBBQ+ movement would yield as much political power as it does today.

Quote:

I can't quite identify the sound that plays when she says "boy". It sounded like a drum snare to me at first, but then another sound that played later sounded like a dog bark. So I'm not sure.

I didn't hear a snare drum but I did hear a dog barking for some reason when she said boy. Maybe she's a feminist and all boys are dogs >:(

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bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
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Maybe she's a feminist and all boys are dogs >:(

Nah, she seems too chill to be a feminist.

Quote:

LGBTSJWBBQ+

Isn't that a type of sandwich served at Subway? :P

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

It should be :)

Except we might then all contract whatever disease they have.

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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I used to be a man like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

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Eric Johnson
Member #14,841
January 2013
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As much as it is fun to poke holes in the "logic" of being able to "identify" as whatever a person wants to identify as, I feel bad for people who are dissatisfied with their biology. It must be truly terrible to hate yourself because you are a man but long to be a woman. Even after going through with sex change surgery, many are still broken and turn to suicide. That is really sad. There are so many broken people in this world who need help.

I really do see it as a mental illness. The mentally ill need help, not encouragement to continue on with their wrong ways. You would not encourage a schizophrenic person to further explore their hallucinations and to extol their mentally ill state. Likewise, I think people who are trans-gendered desperately need professional medical help, not "hurrahs" from the masses.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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You think I didn't go through hundreds/thousands of instances of being bullied or wishing I had a different body, for being a 5'3" tall man? :P

Don't get me wrong, I actually empathize with them too. But it's the "solution" of basically encouraging, feeding, and brain washing their insecurities that I disagree so much with.

Let me state this as clearly as possible: If I had grown up today, I would have thought for sure I was gay. Why? Because I'm "hiding" something inside me? No. Because I was a shy, beta-male that everyone assumed was gay because I fit into that stereotype. And those assumptions fed into my teenage insecurity from a lack of any clear male role models. I was being groomed for a role they expected.

If they had done that, my life would have been ruined forever. I'd never have tried so hard to get over and deal with my real problems, and I never would have gone through the hell that was learning to date, and ended up happily married and having almost completely defeated my Social Anxiety Disorder. I went from being unable to shake someone's hand without a panic attack, to being a person that other people go, "I'm not as outgoing as you. It's not as easy and natural for me as it is for you." (To which I'd just calmly nod. But inside I was thinking "If you only knew the hell I went through to get to where I am today.")

I had plenty of fucked up thoughts when I was a kid from a broken home. Now I don't. I got better. But nowadays kids are straight up surrounded by people trying to tap into and encourage your insecurities, and worse still, it's COOL TO BE TRANS/AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION FLUID. You're "brave". You're "courageous." It's no freakin' wonder why disaffected kids that are 7-years old end telling people they're trans now. They're desperately trying to "find themselves" and demonstrate their value, so now they choose "being trans" before they even have their sex organs activated. It's despicable. Liberals want to treat thet human body like it can be modified WITHOUT SIDE EFFECTS. Gender re-assignment theory is not some simple pill you take, and you wake up with different organ. (They treat anti-depressants and birth control the same way, BOTH which can have horrific side-effects including suicide.)

Nowadays they try and make you seem like a bigot for not agreeing. Like I somehow want people to suffer and I'm denying them medical treatment. But that's just a convenient dismission that liberals do so they don't have to consider logical arguments. I DO care about these people. And all of their issues, liberals don't even want to hear. They want to pretend the human body lives in a utopia where they can change it at all and we understand and can predict all side effects.

Meanwhile, trans people's suicide rates are almost identical whether or not they get re-assignment surgery. And no, it's not from "bullying". There's even evidence that bullying isn't correlated with suicide, but rather, people who are the most privileged. So these people are dying, and liberals apparently don't care enough to even talk about it.

Likewise, there are tons of girls that are "college lesbians." There are many girls that are "lesbian" until the end of college (coincidentally when their baby timer goes off) that they suddenly turn straight again. So many that they coined a term for it. You know what that sounds like to me? Societal pressure. But don't ask questions about it why it happens because then you're a bigot. Curiosity is bigotry, because it might lead one to a conclusion that isn't politically correct.

Another fun fact: Women in same-sex relationships have more than double the rate of domestic abuse. (Trans even higher.) So think about that. If you're a woman, you're more likely to be beaten by another woman, than a man. Does that sound healthy? Does that sound like being gay/trans occurs like a magical switch, completely independent of environment, mental health, and other biological influences?

And that's the thing. I'm 100% for people being gay, and trans, as well as gay marriage. Do whatever the hell you want. I've got gay family members and I couldn't care less. HOWEVER, the idea that I'm not even allowed to talk, discuss, or postulate about it? Bull. Honky. I reject that completely. I'm not going to stand by while people are committing suicide and being beaten by their partners, for the sake of someones feelings. If there's an answer, I'm going to seek it, because those people deserve a chance at happiness too.

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“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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I think people who are trans-gendered desperately need professional medical help, not "hurrahs" from the masses.

It's not a mental disorder. The only medical solution is surgery. You can't treat aberrant chromosomes with drugs and therapy.

I can totally understand how it feels to not feel the way society tells you that you should, and that your body isn't your true one. I spent my childhood convinced that I wasn't human because I didn't get happy or sad when I was supposed to, or laugh at the right time, and most of the time I just didn't feel anything at all. I didn't want to play with other kids, I just wanted my books and my numbers. At first I thought I was an alien, and then a robot. It turns out it was just undiagnosed autism, but I wouldn't find that out for another two decades.

There's no cure for autism either, so I'm also stuck with it. I'm glad that trans people can get surgery to become who they want to be. It's an opportunity I don't have.

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION FLUID

What am I missing there?

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Edgar Reynaldo
Member #8,592
May 2007
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Trans Mission

EDIT
I will never respect Bill Nye ever again. My hero is dead to me now. My sex junk is oh-oh-oh? Give it up for Rachel Bloom? WTFF. And Neil DeGrasse Tyson died to me too, when he said he didn't believe in God. Science isn't the answer to everything.

Bruce Perry
Member #270
April 2000

Science is the art of modelling and predicting things, nothing more. Who said it was the answer to everything?

[EDIT]
Thanks for clarifying the transmission joke :)

--
Bruce "entheh" Perry [ Web site | DUMB | Set Up Us The Bomb !!! | Balls ]
Programming should be fun. That's why I hate C and C++.
The brxybrytl has you.

Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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A New Generation Overthrows Gender: NPR

I thought this number was interesting:

Quote:

A January 2015 general population survey of 1,000 people age 18-34, conducted for Fusion media, found that just 46 percent agreed that "there are only two genders, male and female." Fifty percent, meanwhile, said "gender is a spectrum, and some people fall outside conventional categories." And another recent survey suggests the same trend.

If I had the time I'd write a 10-paragraph reply parodying what has been posted in this thread... But "liberal media", "feminist agenda", etc. :)

Felix-The-Ghost
Member #9,729
April 2008
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Is Ditto gender-nonbinary or genderfluid?

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Aaron Bolyard
Member #7,537
July 2006
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That would depend on how a particular Ditto identifies as, wouldn't it? ;) Otherwise, you might as well ask "What gender are humans?"

bamccaig
Member #7,536
July 2006
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