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Why the hell are Seagate Drives so terrible?
Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I just got finished (mostly, still waiting for some files to copy) fixing two malfunctioning computers. The primary cause was 4 seagate drives being kicked out of two separate RAID arrays. Two of the drives are confirmed faulty (tons of reallocated sectors, 16k for one, 32k for the other). One other might also be on the way out (65536 start stop events in smart), but I don't have a replacement for that one, and a firmware update stopped the immediate cause of that (constant starts and stops, such an annoying noise).

It was quite the ordeal. Virtually all of the seagate drives in both machines had IMPORTANT firmware updates, and I hear if you let it go too long without the updates, it'll kill the drives (I'm pretty sure it's killed up to 4 of my seagates in the past couple years).

The recent failures aren't the only ones. I had 2-3 more fail in the past few years.

Ah well. If you want to read more about the entire process, see this post.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

m c
Member #5,337
December 2004
avatar

I think it's because they chased high performance and low cost, and thus sacrificed reliability.

I used to buy Seagate IDE drives because I had bad experience with Maxtor. But then Seagate bought Maxtor.

Since I have been happily using Samsung drives for awhile but then Seagate bought them too. So since then I have been happily using Toshiba and western digital drives.

Sucks to be you, but I haven't bought a Seagate hard drive since the early 2000s. I just looked them up on Wikipedia, they made a lot of money supplying the ipod 1 inch hdd, and they used to have corporate HQ in the cayman islands but now it is in Ireland. So they are that sort of company.

[EDIT] Actually I have bought some Seagate hdd since, because when I was putting my NAS units together I didn't want to use all hdds from the same manufacturer at the same time because then they might fail, and it is a Linux software raid on a lower-power arm cpu and only accessed over gigabit Ethernet (That the cpu probably can't even drive at full bandwidth) so performance matching is not critical. So I would put in 1x WD, 1x Seagate, 1x Samsung, 1x Hitachi for example.

The Seagate ones run a few deg C hotter than the others in the SMART monitoring, and the only one that I have had to replace so far was actually one of the Seagate ones, I put that raid5 4hdd NAS together in 2007 IIRC so that is ~7 years, 1 hdd failure, Seagate. That was back when the Seagate hdd still had a 5 year warranty though, they've cut that down since then I do believe.

(\ /)
(O.o)
(> <)

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

Seagate used to be known as the higher-quality, more expensive, brand! I bought an external Seagate drive to make sure my data was safe and it DESTROYED ITSELF within three months, along with everything I had "backed up" to it.

They RMA'd it, no hassle, no cost. It turns out a power saving feature actually destroys the drive--so future firmware disables it. But the damage is done. Some of my homemade music is gone forever.

That being said, I have no idea who makes good physical hard drives anymore. :( Meanwhile, my OCZ Vertex SSD drive, everyone said "Don't get an SSD! They're new and might be unreliable!" It's outlasted everything and works like a German train schedule.

Maxtor used to be the "Oh god, you bought a Maxtor?!" drive. Western Digital was good, Seagate best and quieter. Now, Seagate seems lesser. I don't know who to trust!

Google Drive is great for storing some small, but important stuff (my music, for example). But they weren't around ten years ago, their upload rate isn't "impressive", and their costs are decreasing but still too much for me.

I need to get a proper backup setup, but I honestly can't afford the price of an extra drive yet.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

The current "Best" drive is the WD owned HGST drives that I can't seem to find.

WD isn't GREAT but its miles ahead of Seagate these days.

https://www.backblaze.com/blog/best-hard-drive/

I've re-setup my NAS now, and I've been playing with Owncloud again. I may start using it. It's photo support is a bit better, though there's no real photo management available, but the viewer is a lot better than it was when i first tried it. Web interface is pretty slow, even after "optimizing" it.

I got two WD Reds to replace the failed/failing drives in the nas. I won't buy any more seagates till they get their act together. If I can find HGST drives (for decent prices) I'll buy those when i need more drives (will be a long time, or when ever another seagate fails).

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

m c
Member #5,337
December 2004
avatar

I thought that toshiba drives are the best buy price-performance-wise these days, so long as you can get them for the good prices that I can.

I like WD too. But no HDD is infallible. Seagate seem to be the best at high-performance SAS drives.

My advice that I have been following for long time and I told all my friends too:

You should not use external HDD directly, but instead use a NAS with RAID. You can put together a PC for less than $400, which is how much an empty 4-bay NAS tends to cost.

The cheapest and best will be to put together a minimum cost amd system (use 4gigs of RAM, take the absolute lowest cost CPU, I'd say get a cheap gigabyte motherboard), a cheapest case with no PSU, I like the lian li PC-8NB Black which I got for $69 AUD brand new, it is good standard case all aluminium no plastic, cheaper and better than standard Antec cases. I use a seasonic powersupply either the m12, s12, gold or platinum series.

Then you can run Linux and samba and dm_raid or whatever. Or you could install FreeBSD and run samba and zfs. That way you are protected from any single hard drive failure. Sometimes the HDD will be booted from the raid array when they are still fine, they just took too long to do the error recovery, so WD Reds are good because they wont timeout in the raid array.

And then you use that as an "external" hdd only you plug in via Ethernet instead of by usb, and then you browse the windows shares on it and just work directly off that. I usually mount the cifs directory manually on the command line because I've noticed that many Linux applications have trouble dealing directly with files on a auto-mounted windows share. Then when you shutdown and forgot to unmount you have to wait 30 seconds for them to timeout or some crap. I used to have a script in /etc/rc.local.shutdown or something but systemD ruined that.

(\ /)
(O.o)
(> <)

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

m c said:

You should not use external HDD directly, but instead use a NAS with RAID.

I don't get it. What's the advantage to having a second computer, and tunneling file requests over Ethernet, instead of just spending the same amount on hard drives?

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

m c said:

Seagate seem to be the best at high-performance SAS drives.

It appears that their enterprise drives reliability isn't any better than their consumer drives, according to backblaze.

Quote:

You should not use external HDD directly, but instead use a NAS with RAID.

I built a decent nas a year or three ago.

Specs:

  • Case: LianLi PC-Q25B

  • Mobo: Intel S1200KP mITX

  • CPU: Intel Core i3-2120

  • Ram: 16GB 1333Mhz DDR3 ECC

  • PSU: Seasonic PSU (650W+ can't remember exactly)

  • System disk: Old OCZ Vertex SSD

  • SATA Controller: IBM M1015 8 port LSI 2008 SAS

  • RAID Disks: 5x2TB Seagate, 2x2TB WD Red

Nice little machine. works rather well, when disks aren't dying.

I don't get it. What's the advantage to having a second computer, and tunneling file requests over Ethernet, instead of just spending the same amount on hard drives?

I can think of a few:

  • Reduced load on clients

  • Share with other computers

  • It can run background stuff, things like Owncloud or Plex without bogging down your main computers

  • Redundancy

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

A few years back, I first began looking for hard data on hard drive makers' failure rates. There wasn't much. The 'net was full of individuals' anecdotal experience and little else.

Since then, a number of "studies" have been done, and the results always seem to pin Seagate as the brand to avoid. Here is the latest (though given that you cited Seagate's 3-TB failure rate in that other forum, you're probably already on the same page; I forget who I'm talking to sometimes... also, you linked it, so I'll shut up now; this post is preserved for posterity and to remind me to read more before getting excited and hitting Reply).

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

also, you linked it, so I'll shut up now;

I-I did? I think you give me too much credit, sir!

Quote:

{"name":"blog-drive-failure-by-manufacturer1.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/3\/9\/396b7837048df1aac55b4c31a4cbf896.jpg","w":720,"h":710,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/3\/9\/396b7837048df1aac55b4c31a4cbf896"}blog-drive-failure-by-manufacturer1.jpg

My. God.

[edit]

Also, it's interesting that HGST (I've never heard of them before) is a subsidiary of WD, but still outperforming them.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

Yeah, I have 5 3TB seagates (used in the array I use to backup the main NAS). All but maybe one or two needed a firmware update so they wouldn't kill themselves. One was threatening pretty hard too. 65536 "Start Stop Count" events. It maxed the SMART counter ::)

I'm slightly worried.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Gideon Weems
Member #3,925
October 2003

Also, it's interesting that HGST (I've never heard of them before) is a subsidiary of WD, but still outperforming them.

HGST is what happened when WD bought out Hitachi's HDD division.

Thankfully, I only ever purchased one 3TB Seagate. It failed after about a year.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

HGST is what happened when WD bought out Hitachi's HDD division.

Technically HGST is what happened after Hitachi bought IBM's HDD division. It was then sold to WD [1].

There's a reason HGSTs drives are called things like "DeskStar" (anyone remember the DeathStar? The entire reason IBM Sold it's hdd business to begin with..)

References

  1. Mostly. Due to regulatory issues, WD "divested" some of the assets to Toshiba

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

m c
Member #5,337
December 2004
avatar

Yeah because I have more hdds than I have sata ports, and good LSI or other good brand sata cards cost quite a bit compared to a cheap build.

I originally had like 9 hdd in a single PC, 5 and a CD drive on mobo sata, and an extra 4 on a highpoint card in a 4x3.5 in 3x5.25 adapter cage.

But I have since grown wiser and moved on from that.

Now I have 2 NAS setups, one is the primary, the other is the secondary, which is usually unplugged. Every weekend I turn it on and it syncs. Takes a long time.

Also I have my gaming PC (a 2011-3 build), my laptop (cheap amd hybrid gfx 17inch), my linux PC (micro ATX i3), and 2 other people with a desktop and laptop, and so files are always available even if normal computers are turned off. Most important for music collection I'd say. Too much hassle to have your songs on every computer, just put their folder into a NAS then play over network.

External HDD cadies have blown up their powersupplies on me and also I've had small usb-powered 2.5" externals go bad and also 1 OCZ ssd.

(\ /)
(O.o)
(> <)

William Labbett
Member #4,486
March 2004
avatar

I was trying to work out what was wrong with one of my machines last night.

The seagate harddrive was new a few months ago. The machine was playing up and in fact hasn't even been switched on since I set it up.

I reformmatted the harddrive last night, but when I tried to install ubuntu on it, it
gave I/O errors and wouldn't install.

Strange considering how new it is.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

Go see if there's a firmware update for it. Check the SMART attributes. If there are a ton of reallocated sectors, it's done. If the SMART attributes are ok, the drive may be good, and just need a firmware update to stop it from erroring. One of my 3TB drives had issues till I flashed it. Also check with seagates diagnostics tools. If those say it's bad, RMA it right away.

I also had an SSD that was erroring on read, but I just did a full disk write using dd (actually dcfldd) and a subsequent full read succeeded. Sometimes it takes a write to clear a sector that just won't correct itself (on ssds and hdds).

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

m c said:

I used to buy Seagate IDE drives because I had bad experience with Maxtor.

& I had exactly opposite. Had some two Seagetes die relatively fast, while Maxtors lived. Though now I'd rather get Hitachi or WD.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
avatar

When I was in highschool, a friend bought a 40-60 GB Maxtor. We laughed at him. It died within months. We called it "The Clicker" and he only plugged it in when he needed something off of it.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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Months? :o
I think it used to have years of warranty.

MiquelFire
Member #3,110
January 2003
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I never had bad luck with Maxtor.

---
Febreze (and other air fresheners actually) is just below perfumes/colognes, and that's just below dead skunks in terms of smells that offend my nose.
MiquelFire.red
If anyone is of the opinion that there is no systemic racism in America, they're either blind, stupid, or racist too. ~Edgar Reynaldo

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

I have one each of Western Digital, Hitachi and Maxtor that have been running in my computer for years at nearly 24/7 uptime. Not one problem with them. They are the stable, old fashioned drives though, so I don't have to worry about firmware updates.

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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I was a die hard Seagate fan for quite some many years. I've bought somewhere around 50 SATA drives, the majority of them (80%+) being Seagate. I didn't track them all, but I personally only ever had to get an RMA for one Seagate -- but several WD's, even though I've bought far fewer. WD has such a bad track record....

These days I couldn't care much less about drive brand, though. A dying power supply is often the culprit for dead drives.

I've never had a catastrophic failure, nor an unexpected one, and right now my "important" data is stored across a 6 year old Hitachi Deskstar, a 4 year old Seagate Hybrid Drive, and my Intel SSD. Soon to be an ADATA SSD... I think. $219 (CAD) for a 500GB SSD with 550 read/write seems like a good deal right?

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

WD is actually the better one these days. Especially 3TB drives, and some 2TB drives. I've had FOUR 2TB drives fail, and potentially 2 3TBs (they haven't failed yet, but have had issues due to their original firmware).

I was a big seagate fan, and just put off all my failures due to luck, and bad power supplies (at least one killed some drives).

At this point I'm not buying another seagate till the trend changes. Currently seagates are just terrible, some worse than others, but all still pretty bad (5-45% failure rate).

Derezo said:

I've never had a catastrophic failure, nor an unexpected one

Had many. I've had probably 20 drives fail since I got into computers. Most of which were seagates. One 2TB green may be dying, but i haven't bothered to check in a long time. it was acting up, but i didn't check in depth, as it could have been the controller at the time.

Quote:

and right now my "important" data is stored across a 6 year old Hitachi Deskstar, a 4 year old Seagate Hybrid Drive, and my Intel SSD.

I have my important data spread across the computers they are on originally, a lvm volume on raid1, on two seagate 500GBs, on my home server, and I'm copying that to by backup array, and two remote locations.

Quote:

Soon to be an ADATA SSD... I think. $219 (CAD) for a 500GB SSD with 550 read/write seems like a good deal right?

Yeah. That's pretty good. Is it an SX900? I have a 240GB SX900, its quite nice. Also have a 480G Crucial, though I spent a bit more than $200 on it a year or so ago.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
avatar

It's the SP900. When looking up info on it I noticed this comparison with the SX900. It seems pretty negligible.

I spent a bit on this 120GB Intel, it will be 4 years old next month or so. I think I've decided against getting a new laptop just yet, and really just want the extra space so I can dual boot and run more local VMs. 120GB just isn't enough anymore.

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

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