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Israel grabs largest portion of Palestine land in 30 years.
raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

Japan committed an act of war against the USA and paid the penalty. As far as I'm concerned, Hamas is reaping what they sow by provoking military responses from Israel.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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To turn this meta:

I find it very strange how people feel then need to handle "Israel" topics with kid gloves, but we can talk about slavery, human trafficking, Ukraine and Russia, Police officers killing people, Hiroshima/Nagasaki, the Nanking massacre and more, without people claiming the bigotry card.

That's actually one of the aspects of Israel conversations that fascinate me the most.

For example, in America, slavery is a very hot topic, and understandably for us given our history. But if a white person argues that slavery wasn't "as bad" as some article/venue states, and backs it up with facts: He's on thin ground, but still listened to. If a black man makes the same argument, he's on a little easier ground. Continuing along with similar "hot racial topics", H. K. Edgerton is a black man in South Carolina, who once was the head of the NAACP chapter there, who stepped down to become an activist for preserving confederate history and the confederate flag. That's a very contrary view to established society views in which the confederate flag is nothing but a tool of hatred. He's not in fear for his life. People would still publish his books. He can go to any country he wants.

But if a Jew makes an argument against Israel, he's somehow a bigot both in America and Israel, and banned from entering Israel. Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein, for example, have been denied access to Israel. Finkelstein was denied tenure at his own institution as retribution for his "anti-Israel" stances.

I grew up in a libertarian state. There is no topic that's off limits for both discussion, and comedy--if that's your venue. So it's amazing to me that we can talk about the right to abortions (which may, or may not be murder, a very dangerous topic if one side is actually wrong!) easier than we can talk about the foreign policy of Israel country. Meanwhile, we can talk about the USA's foreign policy and nobody holds a single punch.

The huge disparity, and in my mind, hypocrisy, is what fascinates me. What's so special about the topic? And if it's not merely "historic guilt" or "religious allegiance", what is it? What makes that topic so one-sided, somehow impervious to criticism lest you be called a bigot? And even if it was religious, why do Atheists care?

I mean the mere fact that I have to stress that I'm not supporting Hamas, a terrorist organization, is absolutely insane on the face of it.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002
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raynebc said:

Japan committed an act of war against the USA and paid the penalty. As far as I'm concerned, Hamas is reaping what they sow by provoking military responses from Israel.

Exactly!

I am curious Chris Katko, I want to know what actions Israel has taken you think were good? Have they done anything you think deserves credit for being positive, or justified?

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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raynebc said:

Japan committed an act of war against the USA and paid the penalty. As far as I'm concerned, Hamas is reaping what they sow by provoking military responses from Israel.

Yeah but... we eventually gave Japan back, nor did we block humanitarian aid to them. And I'm not concerned with Hamas, to hell with them, but I am concerned with the innocent people in Palestine that should not just be mopped up into "Hamas" just because they're nearby.

NiteHackr said:

I am curious Chris Katko, I want to know what actions Israel has taken you think were good? Have they done anything you think deserves credit for being positive, or justified?

They're a world leader in stem cell research because the USA is too far up it's ass to care about saving lives. They are responsible for some of the greatest medical advances of our time. They have an excellent education system producing a large quantity of scientists, and Intel uses many of them. ICQ was from four Israelis! I could go on.

My issues with Israel is the government's policies, not it's people. Just as I'm sure, many people hate the American government's foreign policy and our congress's inability to do anything except take bribes, but still don't hate every American. The world hated us invading Iraq, but they still listened to Michael Jackson.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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I agree, but I don't believe I've done so.
I for one DONT ignore other countries actions. I complain about Putin, the US, Kim Jong Un, Iran's leaders, and terrorist organizations all the time. Just not on the forums, cause it rarely comes up.
When a thread comes up about something else I dislike, I'll probably complain about it as well :P
I'm pretty sure I have not done such a thing. And negatively mentioning a country does not mean you hate it. I also negatively mention the US. Doesn't mean I hate americans. This is why I think some people (in general) have persecution complexes. they see any negativity towards their world view as hatred against them, and then they immediately pull out the -ist card.

Which is why there's one of those ref things (which you even quoted) where I explicitly say that I don't mean you specifically. However, these things happen, and in my opinion make some people feel persecuted or unwelcome.

Quote:

I'm sure you have heard of Collateral Damage.

I understood what you originally meant, so there's no need to clarify. I'm just explaining why what you said (and specifically how you said it) can be seen as racially motivated, especially if you are not the only one saying it, but it is part of a stream of similar comments.

They're a world leader in stem cell research because the USA is too far up it's ass to care about saving lives. They are responsible for some of the greatest medical advances of our time. They have an excellent education system producing a large quantity of scientists, and Intel uses many of them. ICQ was from four Israelis! I could go on.

My issues with Israel is the government's policies, not it's people.

I think he meant more along the lines of Israel providing palestine with aid, or providing essentially free electricity to them (or as I previously mentioned, spending lots of money on technology specifically designed to less effectively kill in order to prevent collateral damage). As in, its government's policies.
For that matter there's also lots of other good stuff, like being one of the first responders to the haiti earthquake, sending many medical personnel and establishing a field hospital (Israel actually has quite a record for disaster relief).

I find it very strange how people feel then need to handle "Israel" topics with kid gloves, but we can talk about slavery, human trafficking, Ukraine and Russia, Police officers killing people, Hiroshima/Nagasaki, the Nanking massacre and more, without people claiming the bigotry card.

If by "we can discuss" you mean it is generally possible to discuss, then you are simply wrong. Many people jump into personal accusations in all of these topics because it is easy, and because people are like that.
If by "we can discuss" you mean this forum specifically, then as I said, there are two main differences here:
1) There's no incessant posting about any one of those topics.
2) Most posts on these topics are relatively well informed and inoffensive.
This is different from how the topic of Israel is discussed in here. From my perspective, constantly having to respond to uninformed accusations is quite tiring and therefore agitating for me, so I'm sure you can see why I'll be pissed off. This is especially annoying when I also have to see much more annoying shit happen on this front daily, say from moronic world leaders, as it is just piling on top of it.

Quote:

I mean the mere fact that I have to stress that I'm not supporting Hamas, a terrorist organization, is absolutely insane on the face of it.

If you're talking to me, then there has never been a need for that. I do not confuse criticism of one side for support of the other. I also see a fixation on criticizing the policies of some foreign country that does not really affect you, and find that that fixation is itself deserving of criticism. Much like Nitehackr is criticized for jumping on the racism bandwagon, there is legitimate criticism for jumping on the Israel bandwagon.

Quote:

But if a Jew makes an argument against Israel, he's somehow a bigot both in America and Israel, and banned from entering Israel. Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein, for example, have been denied access to Israel. Finkelstein was denied tenure at his own institution as retribution for his "anti-Israel" stances.

On the one hand that type of censorship is very scummy, on the other hand if you are opposed to the existence of a country as it is, and if you meet up with some of its worse enemies, then I'm not really sure why you should visit that country, and if you should be allowed to. Though that is because I follow the defensive democracy doctrine. So while I can agree with you that that does not sound nice, I have trouble feeling concerned over the issue.

Quote:

So it's amazing to me that we can talk about the right to abortions (which may, or may not be murder, a very dangerous topic if one side is actually wrong!) easier than we can talk about the foreign policy of Israel country.

I'm sure that if we had a couple of pregnant women on the forum, and if you posted several topics extolling the virtues of abortion you'd eventually find yourself having difficulty discussing the topic :)

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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From my perspective, constantly having to respond to uninformed accusations is quite tiring and therefore agitating for me, so I'm sure you can see why I'll be pissed off. This is especially annoying when I also have to see much more annoying shit happen on this front daily, say from moronic world leaders, as it is just piling on top of it.

Do what I did, and ignore the dumb ass youtube comment trolls. Those idiots also frequent many other forums. It is not worth your time or energy to try and convince the ass-hats. Many of them are trolling on purpose, and others are too dumb to consider rational thought.

Quote:

I'm sure that if we had a couple of pregnant women on the forum, and if you posted several topics extolling the virtues of abortion you'd eventually find yourself having difficulty discussing the topic :)

It depends on his view points, and the intelligence of the women. I think even some/many pregnant women would consider abortion under some circumstances (assuming they weren't too far along... which is a hairy subject in and of itself).

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
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I'm just explaining why what you said (and specifically how you said it) can be seen as racially motivated, especially if you are not the only one saying it, but it is part of a stream of similar comments.

People only see it as a racial issue if they want to. Most of the people (in general and just not on this site) who are commenting about Israel are neither Jewish, nor Arabic and don't care about either side racially. Instead, people see it as a David vs Goliath situation, and nobody is ever on Goliath's side. We just love our underdogs too much.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Do what I did, and ignore the dumb ass youtube comment trolls. Those idiots also frequent many other forums. It is not worth your time or energy to try and convince the ass-hats. Many of them are trolling on purpose, and others are too dumb to consider rational thought.

You got that right! It's an endless process to try to have a rational discussion with uninformed trolls there. I still get sucked in, but I am getting better at ignoring them. ;)

I think he meant more along the lines of Israel providing palestine with aid, or providing essentially free electricity to them (or as I previously mentioned, spending lots of money on technology specifically designed to less effectively kill in order to prevent collateral damage). As in, its government's policies.

Yup, that is what I meant. They also provide medical aid to Palestinians and drop leaflets warning of impending attacks.

LennyLen said:

People only see it as a racial issue if they want to. Most of the people (in general and just not on this site) who are commenting about Israel are neither Jewish, nor Arabic and don't care about either side racially. Instead, people see it as a David vs Goliath situation, and nobody is ever on Goliath's side. We just love our underdogs too much.

It doesn't matter about the power of either side. What matters is that Hamas is firing rockets at random Israeli targets, innocent civilians and nobody sees that as a problem, or if they do in here, they certainly are not vocal about it, but as soon as Israel defends itself (and they waited a lot time and put up with a lot of missiles before they finally attacked and we heard nothing on the news while Hamas fired missiles constantly and Israel didn't respond!), BANG, people are quick to criticize. I find it very hypocritical to condemn Israel to bombing innocent civilians but not to condemn Hamas for bombing innocent targets, and that is why I call racism. I guess that 4 year old boy that was bombed in Israel deserved it. The difference being that, there were no missiles launched at Hamas from his home, unlike in Palestine.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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NiteHackr said:

I find it very hypocritical to condemn Israel to bombing innocent civilians but not to condemn Hamas for bombing innocent targets

I see your point. But consider that most people will just plain out condemn hamas and other terrorist organizations[1].
Where as they will criticize some actions Israel takes. I think there's a pretty big difference there.

References

  1. To be honest, criticizing and bitching about terrorist organizations feels like flogging a dead horse, so why do it?

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
avatar

To extend what Thomas is saying, we don't bother condemning Hamas for the same reason we don't say things like "This water is wet!" It simply doesn't need to be said, because everyone outside of Hamas knows that what they're doing is wrong.

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

I wonder if anybody here has a viable alternate strategy for Israel to protect itself other than permanently remaining on the defensive.

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
avatar

Apparently doing what the US does is ok. So they could just nuke em. ;D

To be honest, I don't have a fn clue. This isn't an easy subject. No matter what you (israel) do, you're going to make someone mad and people are going to die.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Yodhe23
Member #8,726
June 2007

Israel simply has to do what South Africa did, which is recognize that two(+) people live in one land, and slowly transform themselves into a plural society.

www.justanotherturn.com

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

Yodhe23 said:

and slowly transform themselves into a plural society

The trend of the time seems to be against that though, look at Scotland right in the heart of old Europe - after 100ds of years in a union they want to separate.

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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LennyLen said:

People only see it as a racial issue if they want to.

Because it is always someone else's fault when you say something that seems racist to them :S

Quote:

Most of the people (in general and just not on this site) who are commenting about Israel are neither Jewish, nor Arabic and don't care about either side racially.

How does being neither jewish nor arabic relate to being racist? The KKK aren't all jews and arabs, in fact I'm pretty sure neither is allowed in :)

Quote:

Instead, people see it as a David vs Goliath situation, and nobody is ever on Goliath's side. We just love our underdogs too much.

Well, david was jewish ;)
More seriously, yes, I understand the reason for your bias, but if you admit to bias surely you can admit that when seeing this bias in action it is possible and understandable to mistake the cause of such bias for something it is not (i.e. racism).
As I previously said, I agree that many people jump to the race card purely as an ad-hominem attack, however that does not mean that everyone does so.
I don't know, maybe because you are from Australia, which does not have a racial problem, you are unaware of such issues (now see? This definitely looks like an ad hominem, however it is strictly speaking just a criticism of Australia's behaviour in the Evian conference; However in reality this is just me crafting a comment designed to be innocent on its face but having a lot of tension instilled in it, so I hope you don't get offended or consider me racist or prejudiced.).

Yodhe23 said:

Israel simply has to do what South Africa did, which is recognize that two(+) people live in one land, and slowly transform themselves into a plural society.

You can't really have a pluralistic society in "the state of the jewish people", nor should Israel cease being "the state of the jewish people", though the arab citizens of Israel (~20% of Israel's population) do get all of the rights the jews get (except for being drafted to the military and what comes with that, and with less funding for religious institutions [which should be 0NIS for both jews, muslims and christians imo]), so in a way Israel is already a pluralistic society. However, as much as I'd like Israel to be fully equal and have a full freedom of religion, I still want it to be the home of the jewish "race" as there is no other place on earth where they can be fully safe from persecution.

LennyLen
Member #5,313
December 2004
avatar

More seriously, yes, I understand the reason for your bias, but if you admit to bias surely you can admit that when seeing this bias in action it is possible and understandable to mistake the cause of such bias for something it is not (i.e. racism).

I actually have no bias in this issue, because I honestly don't give a damn about either side. I have no interest at all in the middle east, and doubt I ever will. I was merely making an observation on how most people view the situation (most people also don't really give a damn about either side as it doesn't affect us).

Quote:

I don't know, maybe because you are from Australia, which does not have a racial problem, you are unaware of such issues (now see? This definitely looks like an ad hominem, however it is strictly speaking just a criticism of Australia's behaviour in the Evian conference; However in reality this is just me crafting a comment designed to be innocent on its face but having a lot of tension instilled in it, so I hope you don't get offended or consider me racist or prejudiced.).

First, I'm not from Australia, it's just where I currently reside. Secondly, Australia has terrible racial problems. Until the 1960s, it was perfectly legal to hunt Aboriginal Australians. Their children were also forcibly removed from their families and given to white people to raise because that would be "better" then letting them be raised by "animals."

The situation has improved in the last 40 years, but it's a long way from being good. And the attitudes over here to anyone from just about anywhere else is also quite appalling.

Basically, humans suck. I used to think that there would probably be a way for everyone to live peaceably. These days, I really doubt it.

edit:

Quote:

How does being neither jewish nor arabic relate to being racist? The KKK aren't all jews and arabs, in fact I'm pretty sure neither is allowed in

Because racist outsiders are just as likely to hate both sides if race was the sole motivation. But since it's the Israelis that keep getting singled out, there's a good chance that there's more involved then just racism.

Yodhe23
Member #8,726
June 2007

The jewish race... ;D Now you are really making things up.

Are those who believe in races racist?

www.justanotherturn.com

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

Yodhe23 said:

Are those who believe in races racist?

Well, races do exist, nobody would deny that. But wanting a state for people with a certain race is as racist as you can possibly get, yes :( And if it's for a religion instead of a race then that's even worse.

--
"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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Quote:

The jewish race... ;D Now you are really making things up.

s/jewish race/jewish nationality/g if that makes you happy, this is why I wrote 'jewish "race"' and not 'jewish race' as you seem to imply.
As an example, I consider myself (among other things) a jewish atheist.

Paul whoknows
Member #5,081
September 2004
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Quite ironic isn't it? :(

Fanatics are all the same, different flags, different colors but they all behave the same.

____

"The unlimited potential has been replaced by the concrete reality of what I programmed today." - Jordan Mechner.

Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
avatar

Quite ironic isn't it? :(

Fanatics are all the same, different flags, different colors but they all behave the same.

Just wondering, what is that a reference to? That comment seems a bit out of place to me.

Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

Sure you can talk about races, if you define race being black, white or whatnot skin colour and other differencies. But for me

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what

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not what

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Years of thorough research have revealed that the red "x" that closes a window, really isn't red, but white on red background.

Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest.

NiteHackr
Member #2,229
April 2002
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In a perfect world, race, nationality... whatever you wish to call it, shouldn't matter. We should all live in peace and harmony, passing out flowers to each other or whatever. But in the REAL world, there are people that it matters to. people that want you dead purely because of your race. So that means it is imperitive that we secure land of our own where we can raise our children and live with a certain amount of peace. We should be allowed to defend said land when it is attacked without hesitation and the blame for ANY deaths should be laid squarely at the feet of the ones that attacked in the first place.

In this case, the Hamas attacked, Israel defended, so the blame for any casualties lays squarely on the Hamas!

By the way, after WW2, when the Arabs controlled Israel and the Palestine area, a proposal was offered that would create a state for Israel AND a state for Palestine and the Arabs rejected it outright! And Israel has been attacked ever since. The only reason why the surrounding nations lost any land to Israel was because in 1967 they attacked Israel and lost, and they lost big time. Had it not been for the USA interfering, Israel would have drove it's tanks straight into Egypt after totally defeating their military. But the USA made some phone calls and Israel didn't go farther.

They have a right to the land, they have a right to defend it and as far as I am concerned, they should have blown that Dome of the Rock to tiny bits a long time ago as it is built upon THEIR holy temple!!!

Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

Some bastards taught their children to hate.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Years of thorough research have revealed that the red "x" that closes a window, really isn't red, but white on red background.

Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest.

type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
avatar

"the state of the jewish people"

That's a hella problem. As a citizen of Israel, I strictly oppose this fact. Israel has to be state of Israelis, not state of Jews. Even though I fall under the law of legal immigration to Israel as a Jew. I can't legally marry in Israel however, because I'm not Jew enough. I mean it.

Some bastards taught their children to hate.

Not necessarily bastards though. Sending kids to a school does the trick in most cases in most countries I believe. Some north eastern Europe(like Finland or Sweden) maybe exception of course. As well as some other countries here and there, and of course select schools in any country. And well, it's more complex than that but my thesis is clear.

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