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Israel grabs largest portion of Palestine land in 30 years.
Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/31/us-palestinians-israel-settlement-idUSKBN0GV0D020140831

Yay! In the end, this conflict worked out for the good of everyone!

Quote:

Israel Radio said the step was taken in response to the kidnapping and killing of three Jewish teens by Hamas militants in the area in June.

Yep. That's the reason. They had no intention of taking the land before that. I see no reason to second-guess them.

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"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Nope, no antisemitism in your post. None what so ever.

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“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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If you think criticism is the same thing as antisemitism, your world must be a very cold place to live in.

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

Elias
Member #358
May 2000

Well, since the territory doesn't belong to any other state (recognized by the US or Europe or Isreal at least) - nothing really wrong with claiming it.

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"Either help out or stop whining" - Evert

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Elias said:

Well, since the territory doesn't belong to any other state (recognized by the US or Europe or Isreal at least) - nothing really wrong with claiming it.

1) So if Russia grabbed that land, there'd be nothing wrong with that? That's cool.

2) The USA is Israel's strongest ally, and is opposed to the action:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/01/us-criticises-israel-appropriation-land-settlements

Quote:

“We have long made clear our opposition to continued settlement activity,” a State Department official said. “This announcement, like every other settlement announcement Israel makes, planning step they approve and construction tender they issue is counterproductive to Israel’s stated goal of a negotiated two-state solution with the Palestinians.”

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

Russia would have to fight them for it, the land is under Israel's control at this time.

Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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raynebc said:

Russia would have to fight them for it, the land is under Israel's control at this time.

But if Russia took the land before Israel did, you wouldn't mind? And if Russia takes the rest of the Palestine land, you won't mind?

-----sig:
“Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.” - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
"Political Correctness is fascism disguised as manners" --George Carlin

raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010

If Russia was at war with the Palestinians and conquered the land, then sure, they could go for it for all I care. And before you ask, I don't mind if space invaders take over the West Bank either.

GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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I understand your point Chris.

"Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours"
Allegro Wiki, full of examples and articles !!

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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1) So if Russia grabbed that land, there'd be nothing wrong with that? That's cool.

They didn't grab it, nor have any plans to. Israel did. So if you think it's cool if Russia grabbed it, than you shouldn't have a problem with Israel grabbing it right? Like I said. Anti-semitism. The ONLY ones you have a problem with is if Israel gets it.

Quote:

2) The USA is Israel's strongest ally, and is opposed to the action:

Who gives a fuck what they think? It's really none of their fucking business, like most of the problems in the world they stick their noses into.

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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NiteHackr said:

hey didn't grab it, nor have any plans to. Israel did. So if you think it's cool if Russia grabbed it, than you shouldn't have a problem with Israel grabbing it right? Like I said. Anti-semitism. The ONLY ones you have a problem with is if Israel gets it.

I think his point went COMPLETELY over your head.

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Nah, I understand completely. He's a fucking asshole.

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

pkrcel
Member #14,001
February 2012

Not really, his point was another one...at least as I see it.

It is unlikely that Google shares your distaste for capitalism. - Derezo
If one had the eternity of time, one would do things later. - Johan Halmén

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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NiteHackr said:

Nah, I understand completely. He's a fucking asshole.

What pkrcel said. IF you think what he said was anti-semitic and that hes an ass for saying it, you ENTIRELY missed the point. I'm starting to think you have a bit of a persecution complex.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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I'm reluctant to enter into another one of these arguments, but it feels like I have to do so now, so I'll try and make it so I don't have to respond again.

I wouldn't say I see anything antisemitic in this thread, but it does come off as prejudiced, implying jews/israelis/some other group is inherently untrustworthy. However, I don't think that was the intent, rather just a badly phrased message.

With regards to the content itself:

  • I have no idea who "Israel Radio" is, so I don't know what authority they have to give one reason or another for the act.

  • I have no source for this in English, but according to my sources:

  1. The claimed territory is what is referred to as "C territories" in the Oslo agreements, i.e. area that is officially under the administration of Israel

  2. There are three possible states for such areas; Government areas, privately owned areas, and areas whose status will be determined later. The claimed areas are of the 3rd variety, so there is no legal reason not to claim them as government areas (i.e. determining that they are now government areas).

  3. If there is reason to dispute the claim, it can be argued in court. There have been several cases where the Israeli supreme court ruled in favour of palestinian claimants, even ruling that existing Israeli houses be evicted and destroyed. If I understand correctly, the law allows 45 days to submit such a dispute, so it remains to be seen what will actually happen.

  • If we assume the stated reason is the official reason (i.e. "the step was taken in response to the kidnapping and killing of three Jewish teens by Hamas militants in the area in June."), I find it to be a plausible statement. It is possible that the step is punitive (probably Netanyahu flexing to prove he won[1]), it is possible that the step is reasonable (i.e. hoping that taking that territory will improve security), and it is possible that it is just an excuse (i.e. someone wanted that territory and was waiting for a good excuse to take it. So it is indeed a response to the killings, just one that is self serving). My personal opinion is that it is Netanyahu waving his dick around (i.e. a response to the killings - one meant to show Netanyahu is no loser and won't stand for that shit...)...

The USA is Israel's strongest ally, and is opposed to the action

The USA is opposed to all acts of Israeli settlement, so objecting to this specific instance of it is meaningless. This is a bit like posting an article about an execution in the US and saying "See? The US supports the death penalty!" - we all know the death penalty is legal in several US states, that's not new, interesting, or relevant to any specific case. Like any pair of states (allies or not), there are some things they agree on, and some they disagree on.

NiteHackr said:

Well, since the territory doesn't belong to any other state (recognized by the US or Europe or Isreal at least) - nothing really wrong with claiming it.
But if Russia took the land before Israel did, you wouldn't mind? And if Russia takes the rest of the Palestine land, you won't mind?
If Russia was at war with the Palestinians and conquered the land, then sure, they could go for it for all I care. And before you ask, I don't mind if space invaders take over the West Bank either.
They didn't grab it, nor have any plans to. Israel did. So if you think it's cool if Russia grabbed it, than you shouldn't have a problem with Israel grabbing it right? Like I said. Anti-semitism. The ONLY ones you have a problem with is if Israel gets it.

I'll restate that as far as I know, annexing those lands is completely legal and conforms to all existing agreements. That does not mean that it is wrong to dislike it, but it does mean that any claims to its illegality are invalid (at least until it is brought up and settled in court).

I'm starting to think you have a bit of a persecution complex.

I think it is a matter of personal viewpoints and of the prevailing mood. It is undeniable that there is a recent trend of creating threads about whatever it is that Israel is currently doing that you dislike, and of course taking the anti-Israeli point of view. It does create an unpleasant, maybe even hostile, mood[2]. I interpret this as an inherent bias against Israel[3], and I can see how someone could take it a step further from anti-Israel to anti-Israelis or anti-Jews. Everyone has their own experience with life and can interpret what they see in their own way. There definitely is a whole lot of antisemitism world wide, and it definitely effects the foreign policies of other countries (i.e. speaking against Israel purely because of antisemitism), as well as local events (i.e. people shooting up a local Jewish school), so finding (or "finding") it on an international forum is not unlikely.

References

  1. sigh...
  2. At the very least, causing me to develop some distaste for these forums
  3. Meaning disliking Israel on principal. The test case would be how Israel doing something really nice will be treated (which to my interpretation would be - with great skepticism and cynicism).
Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I dunno. Some people can be a bit distasteful. But does it make me distasteful if I say I'm against invading territory other people are and have been living in for quite some time?

I don't dislike israel, but I don't agree with some of the actions the israeli government takes.

Some people seem to pull out the anti-semite (or racist, or sexist, or whateverist) card whenever people say things that they don't like. It's usually used as a way to shame the other side, say anything to disagree with the actions took by the israeli government, and you get called an anti-semite, hoping that you'll back down from the discussion right then and there.

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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I tell you what, when I start seeing posts that sympathize with Israel and the attacks against them, one of which killed a 4 year old boy recently, than I will change my tone. But it's all I see. Hamas are firing rockets into Israel, and they are launching them from Palestinian schools, hospitals, mosques so that if Israel even tries to defend its people and take them out, they will more than likely hurt Palestinian children, women and other "innocent" civilians and then the news will anounce on the air about Israeli "agression", it's sickening!

Did you know many of the rockets Hamas fires actually fail and land on Palestinians? I am sure they blame Israel. Also the Hamas like to pass off Hamas militants that get killed by Israel as "innocent Palestinians". You almost never hear about these stories though, just some ignorant, hateful person in here spouting off more garbage like this one. It's one sided and I am sick to death of it, I will not apologize for my responses. Don't like it? Than quit posting antisemitic topics or at the very least, balance it out with some stories of Israel's point of view.

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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NiteHackr said:

I tell you what, when I start seeing posts that sympathize with Israel and the attacks against them, one of which killed a 4 year old boy recently, than I will change my tone.

Yes. The actions some militants have taken are horrible. I wish they didn't happen. But does that make other wrongs a right?

Talking about hamas or the other terrorists really doesn't do any good. they are extremists who will never, ever listen to anything that approaches reason. They exist out of pure hate. Some of which is perpetuated by actions taken against their people. Best way to create extremists is to bomb and invade their homes.

Quote:

It's one sided and I am sick to death of it, I will not apologize for my responses. Don't like it? Than quit posting antisemitic topics or at the very least, balance it out with some stories of Israel's point of view.

So you are calling us all antisemitic for even mentioning israel? *sigh* That particular view point pretty much makes it so you can't be taken seriously. Like arguing with a fundamentalist/extremist. Their world view is so locked down, they can't and won't be reasoned with.

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Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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But does it make me distasteful if I say I'm against invading territory other people are and have been living in for quite some time?

That is not distasteful. What is distasteful is doing so in a one-sided, repetitive and exaggerated manner.
Being repeatedly riled up about the goings-on of one specific country without regards to any of the details (such as in this case, being a legal action [and if not - the court will revoke it]), seems wrong. Especially while ignoring much more severe actions worldwide (take a look at China, North Korea, Syria etc.). Can you really say that it looks nothing like persecution to constantly bemoan and misrepresent the shaky actions of one country while ignoring outright brutal actions elsewhere?
Can you honestly say you can't see why some people would interpret such actions as racist?
Again, I don't "feel" racism in here, I just see a personal bias against one country that goes beyond disliking some actions it takes.
Furthermore, it is definitely upsetting to see repeated negative remarks that show very little understanding of the actual situation and history. While I don't expect anyone to fully educate themselves on the issue (I mean, do you really have the time to move to another country? :)), it feels like trying to argue with Fox News. And having Fox News move into my forums is definitely a disheartening thought :)
This is also the point where I would mention that seeing that action an immediately concluding "This is invasion of people's homes" seems like that sort of ignorance, as it both ignores the intricacies of the situation (like, is it wrong for Israel to claim territories that are under its administration and aren't privately owned as its own?) as well as the history of the situation (isn't it wrong for the Greeks/Romans/whoever to invade the homes of Israelis many years ago? Don't they deserve having their homes returned to them?). However, saying these things will very probably cause yet another discussion I really don't want to get into, so I hope you don't take this the wrong way and choose to enter such a discussion (and if you do - I'll try and avoid it if I can).

Talking about hamas or the other terrorists really doesn't do any good.

Those terrorists are the current government of the palestinians.[1]

Quote:

Some of which is perpetuated by actions taken against their people. Best way to create extremists is to bomb and invade their homes.

See, this is where I start to smell bias and prejudice, because it seems to imply that any offensive action is specifically targeted against "their people", as if bombing a house in gaza is meant to kill some poor family out of the malice of those evil jews/israelis, as opposed to bombing the missile silo that hamas hid under the building.
Now is that really what you meant? I hope not. But after reading lots and lots of these posts I find it harder and harder not to believe that's the case. And if NiteHackr already believes that's the case I feel I cannot fault him.
Though I can find his tone and attitude to be offensive :)

Quote:

So you are calling us all antisemitic for even mentioning israel?

I'd really like to stress here that "even mentioning Israel" is not why you[2] are being called antisemitic, that is a strawman. It is "repeatedly, negatively mentioning Israel" that is the reason why you[3] are being called antisemitic.
And had you[4] repeatedly, negatively mentioned Jews I'd probably agree with that accusation. So far I can only say that it appears that some people seem to me to be holding a personal grudge against Israel in a way that appears to me to be irrational.

With this I shall very optimistically hope that I will not post another comment in this thread or this topic :)

References

  1. And I'll say no more to avoid another argument.
  2. And I don't necessarily mean you Thomas, rather some nebulous "you" group of people on the forum.
  3. see previous ref :)
  4. see previous ref :)
type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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If there is reason to dispute the claim, it can be argued in court. There have been several cases where the Israeli supreme court ruled in favor of Palestinian claimants, even ruling that existing Israeli houses be evicted and destroyed. If I understand correctly, the law allows 45 days to submit such a dispute, so it remains to be seen what will actually happen.

The last two cases I remember were overridden by the parliament(Kneset).

Append:

[and if not - the court will revoke it])

Well, as i stated above.. In the very best case the court revokes it, & the parliament overrides the decision. And honestly, solely from the view of what's best for Israel in my eyes, that's silly. Don't grab these lands and work on making peace. There is no right or wrong side in the conflict from European value system, as no son is responsible for dad's actions and the conflict is few generations old.

P.S:
Hella text Slartibarbeast. It deserves a lot more attention than it has received, I'll try to arrange a more insightful response.

Yodhe23
Member #8,726
June 2007

Nation states are all fairly pathetic entities, that tend to represent the interest of the power-elite rather than the inhabitants of the named territory. One day (hopefully soon) we will grow beyond such childish notions and get over the conspiracy of history.

www.justanotherturn.com

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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What is distasteful is doing so in a one-sided, repetitive and exaggerated manner.

I agree, but I don't believe I've done so.

Quote:

Can you really say that it looks nothing like persecution to constantly bemoan and misrepresent the shaky actions of one country while ignoring outright brutal actions elsewhere?

I for one DONT ignore other countries actions. I complain about Putin, the US, Kim Jong Un, Iran's leaders, and terrorist organizations all the time. Just not on the forums, cause it rarely comes up.

Quote:

I just see a personal bias against one country that goes beyond disliking some actions it takes.

When a thread comes up about something else I dislike, I'll probably complain about it as well :P

Quote:

And having Fox News move into my forums is definitely a disheartening thought :)

Totally agree. Fox News is the news organization that likes to pull out the anti-semite card the most. Rather disgusting. The way they play the name-and-shame game is rather shocking.

Quote:

(isn't it wrong for the Greeks/Romans/whoever to invade the homes of Israelis many years ago? Don't they deserve having their homes returned to them?)

It was wrong. But again, that was a long time ago. you quite literally can't fix that. It'd be like the US and Canada moving out to give all the land back to the native americans. And most of europe moving back to where they originally invaded from. You just can't think back that far. Our history was too bloody to make reparations for every single transgresion.

You can however not do those same things now and in the future.

Quote:

See, this is where I start to smell bias and prejudice, because it seems to imply that any offensive action is specifically targeted against "their people", as if bombing a house in gaza is meant to kill some poor family out of the malice of those evil jews/israelis, as opposed to bombing the missile silo that hamas hid under the building.

I'm sure you have heard of Collateral Damage. It's one of the worst things about war. Regardless of what you are targeting, there's going to be a lot of collateral damage whether you like it or not. Innocents will get hurt, or killed, and that tends to create hate and more militants. Explaining it away that you were only targeting "X" doesn't make it any better.

Quote:

It is "repeatedly, negatively mentioning Israel" that is the reason why you[3] are being called antisemitic.

I'm pretty sure I have not done such a thing. And negatively mentioning a country does not mean you hate it. I also negatively mention the US. Doesn't mean I hate americans. This is why I think some people (in general) have persecution complexes. they see any negativity towards their world view as hatred against them, and then they immediately pull out the -ist card.

Yodhe23 said:

Nation states are all fairly pathetic entities, that tend to represent the interest of the power-elite rather than the inhabitants of the named territory. One day (hopefully soon) we will grow beyond such childish notions and get over the conspiracy of history.

That.

I really hate the childish games leaders and countries play. They pretend its on behalf of the majority population, but usually the majority want nothing to do with it. Its just power play. Babies playing with toys.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

Yodhe23 wins this thread. I won the previous one with this image. Works for this thread, too:

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Years of thorough research have revealed that the red "x" that closes a window, really isn't red, but white on red background.

Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest.

Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Two notes here. A) Hamas does not represent Palestinians, they are not the elected representatives and even the Palestinian government has started to ask Hamas to stop. B) Israel drops leaflets warning the Palestinians when they will bomb and tell them to evacuate ahead of time, which may save Palestinians, but I feel then allows the criminal Hamas to get away as well so... I don't see how they can win with this to be honest. Do the right thing and warn them, and you defeat the purpose because the enemy gets away as well. Don't warn anyone and the world accuses you of genocide, meanwhile hundreds of rockets rain down on Israel and there is not a peep from anyone against it. In fact, the news doesn't say a word until Israel responds. The bombing of Israel has been going on for a LONG TIME now, it is only in the news now because Israel got sick of it and defended itself... which leads to the moronic posts in here against Israel.

Also, Israel sends aid to Palestine all the time, some of that aid was used by Hamas to build tunnels to attack Israel with. You don't hear a lot about the good they do, and we all know why, it's an age old problem of people hating Jews. Apparently they're just supposed to sit in their country, do nothing and be bombed, maybe and smile and say thank you to those that bomb them. We ALL know what would happen if rockets started to rain down on American cities from say, Mexico! Why the USA would scramble their jets and start bombing so fast it would make your head spin! The USA certainly had no problems dropping nukes on Japan when it served their purpose... how many innocent people died in those attacks? Or how about the bombs that levelled German cities in WW2? Or more recently in Iraq and Afghanistan. If the Palestinians don't want to be bombed, than they need to stop supporting Hamas and kick their asses out of Palestine.

---
“I love you too.” - last words of Wanda Roy

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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NiteHackr said:

Why the USA would scramble their jets and start bombing so fast it would make your head spin!

I really dislike the USAs tactics and policies. a lot. just fyi.

--
Thomas Fjellstrom - [website] - [email] - [Allegro Wiki] - [Allegro TODO]
"If you can't think of a better solution, don't try to make a better solution." -- weapon_S
"The less evidence we have for what we believe is certain, the more violently we defend beliefs against those who don't agree" -- https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/592870205409353730

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