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Israel grabs largest portion of Palestine land in 30 years. |
Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/31/us-palestinians-israel-settlement-idUSKBN0GV0D020140831 Yay! In the end, this conflict worked out for the good of everyone! Quote: Israel Radio said the step was taken in response to the kidnapping and killing of three Jewish teens by Hamas militants in the area in June. Yep. That's the reason. They had no intention of taking the land before that. I see no reason to second-guess them. -----sig: |
Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Nope, no antisemitism in your post. None what so ever. --- |
Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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If you think criticism is the same thing as antisemitism, your world must be a very cold place to live in. -----sig: |
Elias
Member #358
May 2000
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Well, since the territory doesn't belong to any other state (recognized by the US or Europe or Isreal at least) - nothing really wrong with claiming it. -- |
Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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Elias said: Well, since the territory doesn't belong to any other state (recognized by the US or Europe or Isreal at least) - nothing really wrong with claiming it. 1) So if Russia grabbed that land, there'd be nothing wrong with that? That's cool. 2) The USA is Israel's strongest ally, and is opposed to the action: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/01/us-criticises-israel-appropriation-land-settlements Quote: “We have long made clear our opposition to continued settlement activity,” a State Department official said. “This announcement, like every other settlement announcement Israel makes, planning step they approve and construction tender they issue is counterproductive to Israel’s stated goal of a negotiated two-state solution with the Palestinians.”
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raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010
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Russia would have to fight them for it, the land is under Israel's control at this time. |
Chris Katko
Member #1,881
January 2002
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raynebc said: Russia would have to fight them for it, the land is under Israel's control at this time. But if Russia took the land before Israel did, you wouldn't mind? And if Russia takes the rest of the Palestine land, you won't mind? -----sig: |
raynebc
Member #11,908
May 2010
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If Russia was at war with the Palestinians and conquered the land, then sure, they could go for it for all I care. And before you ask, I don't mind if space invaders take over the West Bank either. |
GullRaDriel
Member #3,861
September 2003
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I understand your point Chris. "Code is like shit - it only smells if it is not yours" |
Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Chris Katko said: 1) So if Russia grabbed that land, there'd be nothing wrong with that? That's cool. They didn't grab it, nor have any plans to. Israel did. So if you think it's cool if Russia grabbed it, than you shouldn't have a problem with Israel grabbing it right? Like I said. Anti-semitism. The ONLY ones you have a problem with is if Israel gets it. Quote: 2) The USA is Israel's strongest ally, and is opposed to the action: Who gives a fuck what they think? It's really none of their fucking business, like most of the problems in the world they stick their noses into. --- |
Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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NiteHackr said: hey didn't grab it, nor have any plans to. Israel did. So if you think it's cool if Russia grabbed it, than you shouldn't have a problem with Israel grabbing it right? Like I said. Anti-semitism. The ONLY ones you have a problem with is if Israel gets it. I think his point went COMPLETELY over your head. -- |
Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Nah, I understand completely. He's a fucking asshole. --- |
pkrcel
Member #14,001
February 2012
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Not really, his point was another one...at least as I see it. It is unlikely that Google shares your distaste for capitalism. - Derezo |
Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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NiteHackr said: Nah, I understand completely. He's a fucking asshole. What pkrcel said. IF you think what he said was anti-semitic and that hes an ass for saying it, you ENTIRELY missed the point. I'm starting to think you have a bit of a persecution complex. -- |
Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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I'm reluctant to enter into another one of these arguments, but it feels like I have to do so now, so I'll try and make it so I don't have to respond again. I wouldn't say I see anything antisemitic in this thread, but it does come off as prejudiced, implying jews/israelis/some other group is inherently untrustworthy. However, I don't think that was the intent, rather just a badly phrased message. With regards to the content itself:
Chris Katko said: The USA is Israel's strongest ally, and is opposed to the action The USA is opposed to all acts of Israeli settlement, so objecting to this specific instance of it is meaningless. This is a bit like posting an article about an execution in the US and saying "See? The US supports the death penalty!" - we all know the death penalty is legal in several US states, that's not new, interesting, or relevant to any specific case. Like any pair of states (allies or not), there are some things they agree on, and some they disagree on. NiteHackr said:
Well, since the territory doesn't belong to any other state (recognized by the US or Europe or Isreal at least) - nothing really wrong with claiming it. I'll restate that as far as I know, annexing those lands is completely legal and conforms to all existing agreements. That does not mean that it is wrong to dislike it, but it does mean that any claims to its illegality are invalid (at least until it is brought up and settled in court). Thomas Fjellstrom said: I'm starting to think you have a bit of a persecution complex. I think it is a matter of personal viewpoints and of the prevailing mood. It is undeniable that there is a recent trend of creating threads about whatever it is that Israel is currently doing that you dislike, and of course taking the anti-Israeli point of view. It does create an unpleasant, maybe even hostile, mood[2]. I interpret this as an inherent bias against Israel[3], and I can see how someone could take it a step further from anti-Israel to anti-Israelis or anti-Jews. Everyone has their own experience with life and can interpret what they see in their own way. There definitely is a whole lot of antisemitism world wide, and it definitely effects the foreign policies of other countries (i.e. speaking against Israel purely because of antisemitism), as well as local events (i.e. people shooting up a local Jewish school), so finding (or "finding") it on an international forum is not unlikely. References
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Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I dunno. Some people can be a bit distasteful. But does it make me distasteful if I say I'm against invading territory other people are and have been living in for quite some time? I don't dislike israel, but I don't agree with some of the actions the israeli government takes. Some people seem to pull out the anti-semite (or racist, or sexist, or whateverist) card whenever people say things that they don't like. It's usually used as a way to shame the other side, say anything to disagree with the actions took by the israeli government, and you get called an anti-semite, hoping that you'll back down from the discussion right then and there. -- |
Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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I tell you what, when I start seeing posts that sympathize with Israel and the attacks against them, one of which killed a 4 year old boy recently, than I will change my tone. But it's all I see. Hamas are firing rockets into Israel, and they are launching them from Palestinian schools, hospitals, mosques so that if Israel even tries to defend its people and take them out, they will more than likely hurt Palestinian children, women and other "innocent" civilians and then the news will anounce on the air about Israeli "agression", it's sickening! Did you know many of the rockets Hamas fires actually fail and land on Palestinians? I am sure they blame Israel. Also the Hamas like to pass off Hamas militants that get killed by Israel as "innocent Palestinians". You almost never hear about these stories though, just some ignorant, hateful person in here spouting off more garbage like this one. It's one sided and I am sick to death of it, I will not apologize for my responses. Don't like it? Than quit posting antisemitic topics or at the very least, balance it out with some stories of Israel's point of view. --- |
Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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NiteHackr said: I tell you what, when I start seeing posts that sympathize with Israel and the attacks against them, one of which killed a 4 year old boy recently, than I will change my tone. Yes. The actions some militants have taken are horrible. I wish they didn't happen. But does that make other wrongs a right? Talking about hamas or the other terrorists really doesn't do any good. they are extremists who will never, ever listen to anything that approaches reason. They exist out of pure hate. Some of which is perpetuated by actions taken against their people. Best way to create extremists is to bomb and invade their homes. Quote: It's one sided and I am sick to death of it, I will not apologize for my responses. Don't like it? Than quit posting antisemitic topics or at the very least, balance it out with some stories of Israel's point of view. So you are calling us all antisemitic for even mentioning israel? *sigh* That particular view point pretty much makes it so you can't be taken seriously. Like arguing with a fundamentalist/extremist. Their world view is so locked down, they can't and won't be reasoned with. -- |
Slartibartfast
Member #8,789
June 2007
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Thomas Fjellstrom said: But does it make me distasteful if I say I'm against invading territory other people are and have been living in for quite some time?
That is not distasteful. What is distasteful is doing so in a one-sided, repetitive and exaggerated manner. Thomas Fjellstrom said: Talking about hamas or the other terrorists really doesn't do any good. Those terrorists are the current government of the palestinians.[1] Quote: Some of which is perpetuated by actions taken against their people. Best way to create extremists is to bomb and invade their homes.
See, this is where I start to smell bias and prejudice, because it seems to imply that any offensive action is specifically targeted against "their people", as if bombing a house in gaza is meant to kill some poor family out of the malice of those evil jews/israelis, as opposed to bombing the missile silo that hamas hid under the building. Quote: So you are calling us all antisemitic for even mentioning israel?
I'd really like to stress here that "even mentioning Israel" is not why you[2] are being called antisemitic, that is a strawman. It is "repeatedly, negatively mentioning Israel" that is the reason why you[3] are being called antisemitic. With this I shall very optimistically hope that I will not post another comment in this thread or this topic References
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type568
Member #8,381
March 2007
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Slartibartfast said: If there is reason to dispute the claim, it can be argued in court. There have been several cases where the Israeli supreme court ruled in favor of Palestinian claimants, even ruling that existing Israeli houses be evicted and destroyed. If I understand correctly, the law allows 45 days to submit such a dispute, so it remains to be seen what will actually happen. The last two cases I remember were overridden by the parliament(Kneset). Append: Slartibartfast said: [and if not - the court will revoke it]) Well, as i stated above.. In the very best case the court revokes it, & the parliament overrides the decision. And honestly, solely from the view of what's best for Israel in my eyes, that's silly. Don't grab these lands and work on making peace. There is no right or wrong side in the conflict from European value system, as no son is responsible for dad's actions and the conflict is few generations old. P.S:
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Yodhe23
Member #8,726
June 2007
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Nation states are all fairly pathetic entities, that tend to represent the interest of the power-elite rather than the inhabitants of the named territory. One day (hopefully soon) we will grow beyond such childish notions and get over the conspiracy of history. www.justanotherturn.com |
Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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Slartibartfast said: What is distasteful is doing so in a one-sided, repetitive and exaggerated manner. I agree, but I don't believe I've done so. Quote: Can you really say that it looks nothing like persecution to constantly bemoan and misrepresent the shaky actions of one country while ignoring outright brutal actions elsewhere? I for one DONT ignore other countries actions. I complain about Putin, the US, Kim Jong Un, Iran's leaders, and terrorist organizations all the time. Just not on the forums, cause it rarely comes up. Quote: I just see a personal bias against one country that goes beyond disliking some actions it takes. When a thread comes up about something else I dislike, I'll probably complain about it as well Quote: And having Fox News move into my forums is definitely a disheartening thought Totally agree. Fox News is the news organization that likes to pull out the anti-semite card the most. Rather disgusting. The way they play the name-and-shame game is rather shocking. Quote: (isn't it wrong for the Greeks/Romans/whoever to invade the homes of Israelis many years ago? Don't they deserve having their homes returned to them?) It was wrong. But again, that was a long time ago. you quite literally can't fix that. It'd be like the US and Canada moving out to give all the land back to the native americans. And most of europe moving back to where they originally invaded from. You just can't think back that far. Our history was too bloody to make reparations for every single transgresion. You can however not do those same things now and in the future. Quote: See, this is where I start to smell bias and prejudice, because it seems to imply that any offensive action is specifically targeted against "their people", as if bombing a house in gaza is meant to kill some poor family out of the malice of those evil jews/israelis, as opposed to bombing the missile silo that hamas hid under the building. I'm sure you have heard of Collateral Damage. It's one of the worst things about war. Regardless of what you are targeting, there's going to be a lot of collateral damage whether you like it or not. Innocents will get hurt, or killed, and that tends to create hate and more militants. Explaining it away that you were only targeting "X" doesn't make it any better. Quote: It is "repeatedly, negatively mentioning Israel" that is the reason why you[3] are being called antisemitic. I'm pretty sure I have not done such a thing. And negatively mentioning a country does not mean you hate it. I also negatively mention the US. Doesn't mean I hate americans. This is why I think some people (in general) have persecution complexes. they see any negativity towards their world view as hatred against them, and then they immediately pull out the -ist card. Yodhe23 said: Nation states are all fairly pathetic entities, that tend to represent the interest of the power-elite rather than the inhabitants of the named territory. One day (hopefully soon) we will grow beyond such childish notions and get over the conspiracy of history. That. I really hate the childish games leaders and countries play. They pretend its on behalf of the majority population, but usually the majority want nothing to do with it. Its just power play. Babies playing with toys. -- |
Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001
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Yodhe23 wins this thread. I won the previous one with this image. Works for this thread, too: {"name":"4d0a4ca484c96595a0b527b35f306ffb.jpg","src":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/4\/d\/4d0a4ca484c96595a0b527b35f306ffb.jpg","w":690,"h":373,"tn":"\/\/djungxnpq2nug.cloudfront.net\/image\/cache\/4\/d\/4d0a4ca484c96595a0b527b35f306ffb"} ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest. |
Neil Roy
Member #2,229
April 2002
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Two notes here. A) Hamas does not represent Palestinians, they are not the elected representatives and even the Palestinian government has started to ask Hamas to stop. B) Israel drops leaflets warning the Palestinians when they will bomb and tell them to evacuate ahead of time, which may save Palestinians, but I feel then allows the criminal Hamas to get away as well so... I don't see how they can win with this to be honest. Do the right thing and warn them, and you defeat the purpose because the enemy gets away as well. Don't warn anyone and the world accuses you of genocide, meanwhile hundreds of rockets rain down on Israel and there is not a peep from anyone against it. In fact, the news doesn't say a word until Israel responds. The bombing of Israel has been going on for a LONG TIME now, it is only in the news now because Israel got sick of it and defended itself... which leads to the moronic posts in here against Israel. Also, Israel sends aid to Palestine all the time, some of that aid was used by Hamas to build tunnels to attack Israel with. You don't hear a lot about the good they do, and we all know why, it's an age old problem of people hating Jews. Apparently they're just supposed to sit in their country, do nothing and be bombed, maybe and smile and say thank you to those that bomb them. We ALL know what would happen if rockets started to rain down on American cities from say, Mexico! Why the USA would scramble their jets and start bombing so fast it would make your head spin! The USA certainly had no problems dropping nukes on Japan when it served their purpose... how many innocent people died in those attacks? Or how about the bombs that levelled German cities in WW2? Or more recently in Iraq and Afghanistan. If the Palestinians don't want to be bombed, than they need to stop supporting Hamas and kick their asses out of Palestine. --- |
Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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NiteHackr said: Why the USA would scramble their jets and start bombing so fast it would make your head spin! I really dislike the USAs tactics and policies. a lot. just fyi. -- |
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