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What is a soul/mind
Paul whoknows
Member #5,081
September 2004
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What is real? How do you define real?

Like I said above, whatever a majority of people can agree on...

Can you prove it scientifically?

____

"The unlimited potential has been replaced by the concrete reality of what I programmed today." - Jordan Mechner.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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It's self evident, e.g. axiomatic. Therefore scientific. Except to hucksters (or so they say).

[EDIT]

There are exceptions, revealed through hindsight. Einsteins theory of relativity wasn't accepted for quite a while, but now it is. It's the best we can do, deal with it.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Neil Walker
Member #210
April 2000
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We are animals with a slightly higher functioning brain than other animals. We are made up of atoms from distant stars the same as that chair you are sitting on. Nothing more.

Neil.
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Evert
Member #794
November 2000
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What Tobias said.

Einsteins theory of relativity wasn't accepted for quite a while

I think this is an urban myth, whether you're talking about special or general relativity.

Trezker
Member #1,739
December 2001
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The Matrix in my case is not something physical in a higher layer of reality.
I'm saying there's only consciousness, there is no space, no metrics at all in the ultimate reality.
When this imagined life ends this consciousness just keeps on imagining things.

There's no way to prove there's even any continuity in this life. All my memories may just be something I imagined just now, I may have never imagined being at work, maybe I'm just imagining remembering being at work.

There's no reason to believe I actually experienced life from birth up to this moment. I could just as well have jumped in a week or a month ago and made all those memories up.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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I used to argue with my sister about such silly things when we were about 10 years old, but I'm all better now. You can't possibly be serious about stuff like that or it'd mean learning to program games is a waste and you wouldn't be here on allegro.cc.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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learning to program games is a waste and you wouldn't be here on allegro.cc.

Nah, you'd just spend all your time in Off-Topic.

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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Nah, you'd just spend all your time in Off-Topic.

You mean like this?

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

23yrold3yrold
Member #1,134
March 2001
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I was much, much worse than that back in the day ...

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Software Development == Church Development
Step 1. Build it.
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Paul whoknows
Member #5,081
September 2004
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Arthur, no offense, but you seem to be blinded by your senses.

____

"The unlimited potential has been replaced by the concrete reality of what I programmed today." - Jordan Mechner.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Blinded by my senses? Oblivious to non-sense?

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

anonymous
Member #8025
November 2006

Trezker said:

I'm saying there's only consciousness, there is no space, no metrics at all in the ultimate reality.

Are there any practical implications? Does this idea in any way affect your life?

Thomas Fjellstrom
Member #476
June 2000
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I was much, much worse than that back in the day ...

I seem to recall like 23 posts a day or something ;D It took me a couple years to catch up to your post count.

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Ben Delacob
Member #6,141
August 2005
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There are a number of posts here comparing the brain to a machine. We don't understand the brain. Physical phenomena tend to be taken advantage of by nature. To our greatest ability of detection, there is a truly random aspect to sub-atomic physics. If you are to really believe in science, you must accept that determinism is a belief. This is in the same vein as accepting that the earth is the center of the universe when all available (pre-telescopic) evidence suggests so with careful examination -actual historical recordings made to the limit of possible human eyesight suggested this as truth. Although it is perhaps not true, science is against you if you believe determinism.

Until we understand the mechanisms by which the brain determines what we call true (not just a few of its behaviors), I can't help but accept that the brain may not function by the rules we accepts machines to work by: deterministic principles. After all, relativity is the last thing I would call intuitive.

That said, I fully believe in the brain being an advanced machine. Marie Curie was a damned fool for believing that science alone should be examined almost in a depth-first manner. I am a fool too. The idea still resides in me that what "is" isn't physical atoms, but ideas. That's the meaning of "I think therefore I am". As for the soul, it's whatever compels me to believe that: probably a machine.

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Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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I've gone through the loop and back again on this subject, and what I've discovered is simply this:

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

gnolam
Member #2,030
March 2002
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Stop trying to sound deep, people. You're giving me horrible flashbacks to my high school philosophy class. :P

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Derezo
Member #1,666
April 2001
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gnolam said:

You're giving me horrible flashbacks to my high school philosophy class.

Why do threads about topics always remind me of when I was involved with those topics!? :o

>:(

"He who controls the stuffing controls the Universe"

AMCerasoli
Member #11,955
May 2010
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I don't believe in god or other stuffs like that. I think we need to know more about us before trying to know what are we doing here or where we are going. Because all these questions are about those topics: "Why we are here?" "do we really exist?" "Why I'm alive?".

I think the most interesting and difficult question is: "Are we alive?".

Because even when we can obviously see a big difference between a rock and a human being, we can't actually say that that rock is lifeless just because is an inanimate object and we're alive because we're animated objects. My theory is that we're not more than a particle of dust flying in the air from one place to another. The only difference is that we have got so complex that we think we're actually "thinking" and making things because we want, an not because an external condition is telling us what to do. Think about it, there are many "things" that exist thanks to the evolution of time, and different conditions in which they have lived in.

We go to the desert and we see those tumbleweed going around as they were "alive" impulsed by the wind, and dispersing its seeds all over the place. Basically if you analyse all objects in earth are made and live thanks to certain conditions: light, water, air, earth, temperature, etc... If you take a plant and put it in the space such plant would die, the plant is alive in the earth but not because it's alive an that's it, but because thanks to basic conditions such plant is alive, but only in the earth. Well, I think we are the same but with a complexity millions of times higher than a plant. We're descendants of a kind of "movement" probably in this case originated mostly in the water, because we're biological creatures, and biological creatures are always made of a considerable portion of water.

And if you think about it, the water is always in movement, it almost never stop, it's a perfect environment to start a evolutionary chain of tiny particles that get together for some reasons an conditions and those conditions leads to another and so on, until it appears a little bacteria that we think is alive because when get in touch with another biological or non-biological object or entity we can see that it grows, and reproduce creating another bacteria but it's not more than certain conditions acting on such particles...

We're too advanced to be able to see it now, it's like when you show the source code of an operating system to someone that doesn't know anything about programming, he wouldn't be able to understand it, and if there is no books and no one to tell him how things work he probably will never be able to know what it's happening... Never...

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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This thread is worthless, so here's a picture of a dog.

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They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Edgar Reynaldo
Major Reynaldo
May 2007
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Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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And Pepsi(TM), dammit!

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Mark Oates
Member #1,146
March 2001
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That's now the third time I've seen that dog picture. :P The internet is shrinking.

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Johan Halmén
Member #1,550
September 2001

I think we need to...
I think the most interesting...
Think about it, there are many...
Well, I think we are the same...
And if you think about it, the water is...

And...

Quote:

...we have got so complex that we think we're actually "thinking"...

Please tell the difference between actual thinking and just thinking one is thinking.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Years of thorough research have revealed that the red "x" that closes a window, really isn't red, but white on red background.

Years of thorough research have revealed that what people find beautiful about the Mandelbrot set is not the set itself, but all the rest.

Arthur Kalliokoski
Second in Command
February 2005
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Please tell the difference between actual thinking and just thinking one is thinking.

Real thinking is hard work.

They all watch too much MSNBC... they get ideas.

Tobias Dammers
Member #2,604
August 2002
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Until we understand the mechanisms by which the brain determines what we call true (not just a few of its behaviors), I can't help but accept that the brain may not function by the rules we accepts machines to work by: deterministic principles.

Same difference. If there's nondeterminism at some level that the human brain is subject to, then those also apply to complex machines. You still haven't shown any fundamental difference between the human brain and a sufficiently complex machine. All scientific evidence suggests that the human brain is bound to the same laws and rules as any other information processing system; it is certainly more complex than any man-made computer, and it does not function like a binary von-Neumann computer, but there is no reason to attribute the brain with supernatural or otherwise inexplicable capabilities.

Another interesting thought is that a sufficiently complex deterministic system is, for all practical purposes, nondeterministic. Why? Because in order to predict the behavior of any system (in real time, or faster), one needs a system that is even more complex; my intuition says that the required extra complexity grows exponentially with the complexity of the system to be predicted. This means that a sufficiently complex system can only be predicted using a system more complex than the entire universe - which is practically impossible.

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